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Should training for RAW be different than training for a shirt?
- Thread starter Grantsdu
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brianmincher
New member
Who is you buddy Cal, Josh Bryant? I have not heard of too many 22 year olds that are doing 500 for 5. Hell there aren't too many 32 year olds doing that for that matter. Kind of curious.
And regarding not being able to get strong benching raw every week. I will alter that to say, that I personally cannot get stronger by "exclusively" benching every week. Nor does anyone I know personally. Everyone I know who gets noticeably stronger, incorporates a great deal of accessory work into their training. I used to think I could get stronger by adding 5 lbs to my pyramid every week and just bench and go home. It did not work. Maybe I was a bit unclear in my earlier post.
Seriously, I would be very interested to know who your 22 year old buddy is.
B.
And regarding not being able to get strong benching raw every week. I will alter that to say, that I personally cannot get stronger by "exclusively" benching every week. Nor does anyone I know personally. Everyone I know who gets noticeably stronger, incorporates a great deal of accessory work into their training. I used to think I could get stronger by adding 5 lbs to my pyramid every week and just bench and go home. It did not work. Maybe I was a bit unclear in my earlier post.
Seriously, I would be very interested to know who your 22 year old buddy is.
B.
thank you brianmincher,you put it better than I did.what my point was is that when i only benched for years my bench was stuck,it's like when i waqs deadlifting everyweek i was not increasing like i did when i stopped doing deads and trained the muscles that help the deadlift.now mybe it won't work for everyone and i guess that would come down to how long you've been training and finding what works for each person,cause everyone will be differnt......some get strong as hell just benching period,but not me........
speedDemon
New member
benching raw would be the best way to go i would think.not a pro about shirts,but if you get as strong as you can without it tthen i think you would be stronger with it on.
hey Brian he isnt famous...
but if youd like to know his name you can pm me.
hes a good freind of mine...and yes ive seen him train, i occasionally lift with him...when i go back east to train.
funny how...some of you get indignant and defensive when someone lifts more ...and get all defensive...
there are plenty of guys out there are strong as hell but dont compete...david shaw a great old time powerlifter writes about something similiar in milo a while back...about a no name guy he once saw who would bench 600 raw, with no problem and did nothing but bench singles and some pushdowns...i hate to break it to folks there are sooooo many guys that trained incorrectly that "made" it...obv they had genetic ability...but...their desire and drive was an important factor...
it seems that many on this board...seem to dismiss anything that isnt Westside protocal out of hand as being not scientific...etc...
btw my buddy has always been pretty strong when before lifted...but...not what one would say was a freak. he did deadlift...600 at 200 ish at 16...after only a short period of time though...his...bench took a lot longer to develop.
im not flaming anyone here...just saying that there a ton of guys that do fine...without...using strict westside...
he also keeps his training very basic...and many on this forum would say he trains like a bber...
here is basically what he does...
monday: bp 2-3x1-5
db flat bench or incline press (up to 175 on dbs, and 405x2 on inclines
then some dips and db extensions...
tuesday: sq 2-3x6-8
l leg leg press
leg curls
thursday: shoulder presses
laterals
friday: dl or bb row
t bar row
pulldowns...
but if youd like to know his name you can pm me.
hes a good freind of mine...and yes ive seen him train, i occasionally lift with him...when i go back east to train.
funny how...some of you get indignant and defensive when someone lifts more ...and get all defensive...
there are plenty of guys out there are strong as hell but dont compete...david shaw a great old time powerlifter writes about something similiar in milo a while back...about a no name guy he once saw who would bench 600 raw, with no problem and did nothing but bench singles and some pushdowns...i hate to break it to folks there are sooooo many guys that trained incorrectly that "made" it...obv they had genetic ability...but...their desire and drive was an important factor...
it seems that many on this board...seem to dismiss anything that isnt Westside protocal out of hand as being not scientific...etc...
btw my buddy has always been pretty strong when before lifted...but...not what one would say was a freak. he did deadlift...600 at 200 ish at 16...after only a short period of time though...his...bench took a lot longer to develop.
im not flaming anyone here...just saying that there a ton of guys that do fine...without...using strict westside...
he also keeps his training very basic...and many on this forum would say he trains like a bber...
here is basically what he does...
monday: bp 2-3x1-5
db flat bench or incline press (up to 175 on dbs, and 405x2 on inclines
then some dips and db extensions...
tuesday: sq 2-3x6-8
l leg leg press
leg curls
thursday: shoulder presses
laterals
friday: dl or bb row
t bar row
pulldowns...
speedDemon
New member
i agree with that cal.i was more or less cursed when i didn't buy into the westside thing,but once the attitudes calm down they're cool.
powerlifterjay
New member
Hey guys i see your points , but i know the other side of things as well. It has taken me a couple years to have come as far as i have with westside training. Meaning i didnt buy into it at all. I adopted exercises and such, but that was it. I tried speed work , didnt like it. I hav etried box squats and loved it. And am now doing the no deadlifting to up my deadlift and i think its workin great.
Now keep in mind i take a lot of pride in my raw abilities. I can squat , bench, deadlift , raw and have a big total. So iam all for raw training. I will never compete raw, but heavy raw traiing is something that i agree has to be done. I put my gear on , and iam that much stronger. Like i have a meet coming June 2nd. I have box squatted since my last heavy squat session in January. All westsiders box up top the meet. I am currently free squatting as we speak. I will go 700 belt and wraps tonight. And 25 more next week. So as you see iam not 100% westside. Same with bench. I do no speed and both days are One moderate sometimes heavy, and the next always heavy. That said here is the flip side......
Westside trains weaknesses and imporves those areas. To say it doesnt work is ridiculas, there numbers speak for them selves. The concept behind westside is genious. And dont you think for a second they dont raw train. Buddy i have heard of big numbers flying around that gym raw. But alot of them dont liftthat way. I think the majoity of lifters around the country who train westside dont hit heavy raw shit either. But the meets allow equipment so if they can put on gear and use it to their benifit and lift way over their raw capabilities then they are mastering what there training for. Lifitng max weights under meet rules. Nothing wrong with it. Cause honestly unless you knwo the person you cant tell at a meet what they can lift raw.
And Cal the guy on the traiing forum your going to who advocates the 1 rep training is onto a good concept as well. I believe it would work to an extent as well. But if you seen he and i bickering a couple weeks ago he seen a pic of me and immediatly bashed me and said i could bench over 600 because i was all shirt. So just like westsiders call out people who bench raw and call them freaks, he assumed right away i was weak and all equipment. I can bench 545 raw. Theres people here who see it and knwo i am strong raw. So if i get 100plus from my shirt so what. If you cant lockout 650plus (like i can) my shirt will do nothing for you or anyone who puts one on thats eqaully as tight. I promise you that. Why is my lockout capabilities reaching freak status? Westside exercises. Boards and bands. On my second tri day. If it wasnt for there movements i wouldnt bench what i do. And yes i will bench flat and raw for life. Why? I love too. My training has to be fun. And raw benching to me is fun and it gauges and builds my strength. And i think you would be surprised how many people here are doing my routine. And if there not doing it they have stored somewhere.
So excuse the board memebers for there quick to attack non westsiders but theres no need to be equally as defensive. Because since iam in the middle, i see both points, and understand what both of ya'll , and the board means. So do what i did, and take what works from all aspects and get strong! Plain and simple try it if you dont like it take things out and add in your own stuff. Thats what i did. Works for me. Education will make you stronger. You MUST understand why you do certain things. You cant just do them and then say it doesnt work. Understand what its doing and if its not in yur cards drop it. Please westsiders no flames but i think speed benching is a waste of time. But if i did no flat benching at all you would have too. My partner Jimmie dean is 100% westside. So his speed stuff sometimes clashes with my way but we meet in the middle. Some days he does mine others i do his. Ying and Yang! Its all fun guys. The goal is get strong! Right?
Now keep in mind i take a lot of pride in my raw abilities. I can squat , bench, deadlift , raw and have a big total. So iam all for raw training. I will never compete raw, but heavy raw traiing is something that i agree has to be done. I put my gear on , and iam that much stronger. Like i have a meet coming June 2nd. I have box squatted since my last heavy squat session in January. All westsiders box up top the meet. I am currently free squatting as we speak. I will go 700 belt and wraps tonight. And 25 more next week. So as you see iam not 100% westside. Same with bench. I do no speed and both days are One moderate sometimes heavy, and the next always heavy. That said here is the flip side......
Westside trains weaknesses and imporves those areas. To say it doesnt work is ridiculas, there numbers speak for them selves. The concept behind westside is genious. And dont you think for a second they dont raw train. Buddy i have heard of big numbers flying around that gym raw. But alot of them dont liftthat way. I think the majoity of lifters around the country who train westside dont hit heavy raw shit either. But the meets allow equipment so if they can put on gear and use it to their benifit and lift way over their raw capabilities then they are mastering what there training for. Lifitng max weights under meet rules. Nothing wrong with it. Cause honestly unless you knwo the person you cant tell at a meet what they can lift raw.
And Cal the guy on the traiing forum your going to who advocates the 1 rep training is onto a good concept as well. I believe it would work to an extent as well. But if you seen he and i bickering a couple weeks ago he seen a pic of me and immediatly bashed me and said i could bench over 600 because i was all shirt. So just like westsiders call out people who bench raw and call them freaks, he assumed right away i was weak and all equipment. I can bench 545 raw. Theres people here who see it and knwo i am strong raw. So if i get 100plus from my shirt so what. If you cant lockout 650plus (like i can) my shirt will do nothing for you or anyone who puts one on thats eqaully as tight. I promise you that. Why is my lockout capabilities reaching freak status? Westside exercises. Boards and bands. On my second tri day. If it wasnt for there movements i wouldnt bench what i do. And yes i will bench flat and raw for life. Why? I love too. My training has to be fun. And raw benching to me is fun and it gauges and builds my strength. And i think you would be surprised how many people here are doing my routine. And if there not doing it they have stored somewhere.
So excuse the board memebers for there quick to attack non westsiders but theres no need to be equally as defensive. Because since iam in the middle, i see both points, and understand what both of ya'll , and the board means. So do what i did, and take what works from all aspects and get strong! Plain and simple try it if you dont like it take things out and add in your own stuff. Thats what i did. Works for me. Education will make you stronger. You MUST understand why you do certain things. You cant just do them and then say it doesnt work. Understand what its doing and if its not in yur cards drop it. Please westsiders no flames but i think speed benching is a waste of time. But if i did no flat benching at all you would have too. My partner Jimmie dean is 100% westside. So his speed stuff sometimes clashes with my way but we meet in the middle. Some days he does mine others i do his. Ying and Yang! Its all fun guys. The goal is get strong! Right?
brianmincher
New member
I have been thinking myself that speed bench may not be the best use of my training time. I have been 100 percent Westside for about 9 months or so now, and have made awesome gains during that time. I am going to drop speed bench, and do a mixture of what Jay does, what Screwball, does and what I have thought of. Screwball suggested just doing two max effort days per week instead of one max day and one speed day. Jay basically does a raw day and a max effort day (board day) I am going to start doing board presses wearing my shirt (because I have had such shirt problems recently) with a comp grip on Sunday's and do either raw bench, not to a max, or reverse band press, or heavy dumbells on Wednesdays. I am thinking I will go for PR's on sunday, and stop just short of failure on Wednesday's.
This does not mean I am no longer Westside, it just means that I am modifying the program to fit what is my current weak point. That IMHO is what Westside is all about. It is not about chains or bands, or a strict regimen of speed work one day and max effort work the other. I have recently slowed and where a shirted press is concerned, even regressed. I would be foolish, I think to continue on when progress is not imminent. As Louie Simmons says, "Everything works, but nothing works forever."
And incidentally, the reason I have been thinking that the speed work is not working for me, is that since lowering my speed working weight down to the working percentages currently suggested, I bombed out of a meet with a weight I had hit many many different times before, when I was training with 40 to 50 lbs more on speed day. Speed is king, but you also have to be strong.
B.
This does not mean I am no longer Westside, it just means that I am modifying the program to fit what is my current weak point. That IMHO is what Westside is all about. It is not about chains or bands, or a strict regimen of speed work one day and max effort work the other. I have recently slowed and where a shirted press is concerned, even regressed. I would be foolish, I think to continue on when progress is not imminent. As Louie Simmons says, "Everything works, but nothing works forever."
And incidentally, the reason I have been thinking that the speed work is not working for me, is that since lowering my speed working weight down to the working percentages currently suggested, I bombed out of a meet with a weight I had hit many many different times before, when I was training with 40 to 50 lbs more on speed day. Speed is king, but you also have to be strong.
B.
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Screwball
New member
I believe Louie and the rest of the Westside guys would be the first to agree that if something is not working: change it. They each attack their weaknesses in their own ways. The bottom line is that you do, what you have to do, to keep gaining strength & speed. Always striving to push your numbers up. If jumping jacks increased my squat & deadlift then that's what the hell I'm going to be doing. Hmmmm, just got an idea. Naaahhhhh!
hey powerlifterjay,
all i was saying is that ...some claim to be open minded about training but...think that ONLY westside works...
i never said that Westside doesnt work, just that ...just that some others find other methods to be more effective that is all...
btw i didnt know that ...mike ...was refering to you on goheavy...
all i was saying is that ...some claim to be open minded about training but...think that ONLY westside works...
i never said that Westside doesnt work, just that ...just that some others find other methods to be more effective that is all...
btw i didnt know that ...mike ...was refering to you on goheavy...
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