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Second law of Thermodynamics

chesty

chesty

Bodybuilding Competitor
Elite Moderator
S=Kln(omega)

This is the second law of thermodynamics. What is the signifigance of the equation, specifically the term omega.
 
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Actually your close, it really means that the entropy increases as the number of accessible states increase (omega).

Now given that on a large scale, (macroscopic) entropy does always increase on a quantum scale it may decrease.

For example in a control volume (no interaction with the world around it) If I increase "temperature" in the control volume, I increase the number of accessible states of whatever is in there. In this case let's say an atom of hydrogen. It becomes more energetic due to the temperature increase. Therefore, the number of states increase, entropy increases. Now if I lower the temperature the number of accessible states decrease and the entropy within this system decreases. Overall, however, the total entropy of the known universe increases.

Again, this is for a system that is non-interacting with its surroundings. Now omega is a function of the volume of space, where V1=omega1 and V2=omega2 and the product of the two V1V2=omega0.

Therefore the number of states is VrVp/h, where h is Planck's Constant.
 
Why did you ask the question if you knew the answer?



chesty said:
Actually your close, it really means that the entropy increases as the number of accessible states increase (omega).

Now given that on a large scale, (macroscopic) entropy does always increase on a quantum scale it may decrease.

For example in a control volume (no interaction with the world around it) If I increase "temperature" in the control volume, I increase the number of accessible states of whatever is in there. In this case let's say an atom of hydrogen. It becomes more energetic due to the temperature increase. Therefore, the number of states increase, entropy increases. Now if I lower the temperature the number of accessible states decrease and the entropy within this system decreases. Overall, however, the total entropy of the known universe increases.

Again, this is for a system that is non-interacting with its surroundings. Now omega is a function of the volume of space, where V1=omega1 and V2=omega2 and the product of the two V1V2=omega0.

Therefore the number of states is VrVp/h, where h is Planck's Constant.
Click to expand...
 
same reason you flex your bicep in the when looking in the mirror
 
Because this board was getting really lame with its content so I thought I would go and find out who knew the answer. And I find it really interesting.
 
Isn't there some caveat to the second law of thermodynamics, something to do with maxwell?
 
A Physics Pholk Song ...

The First Law of Thermodynamics:-
Heat is work and work is heat.
Heat is work and work is heat
Very good! The Second Law of Thermodynamics:-
Heat cannot of itself pass from one body to a hotter body,
Heat cannot of itself pass from one body to a hotter body
Heat won't pass from a cooler to a hotter,
Heat won't pass from a cooler to a hotter
You can try it if you like but you'd far better notta,
You can try it if you like but you'd far better notta
'Cos the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a rule-a,
'Cos the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a rule-a
'Cos the hotter body's heat will pass to the cooler,
'Cos the hotter body's heat will pass to the cooler

Good, First Law!

Heat is work and work is heat
And work is heat and heat is work
Heat will pass by…conduction,
Heat will pass by…conduction

And heat will pass by…convection,
Heat will pass by convection

And heat will pass by…radiation,
Heat will pass by…radiation
And that's a physical law!

Heat is work and work's a curse,
And all the heat in the Universe,
Is gonna cooooool down 'cos it can't increase,
Then there'll be no more work and there'll be perfect peace
Really?
Yeah, that's entropy, man!

And its all because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which
lays down that…

You can't pass heat from a cooler to a hotter,
Try it if you like but you far better notta,
'Cos the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a rule-a,
'Cos the hotter body's heat will pass to the cooler.
Oh you can't pass heat, cooler to a hotter,
Try it if you like but you'll only look a fool-a
'Cos the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a rule-a
And that's a physical law!

Oh, I'm hot!
Hot? That's because you've been working!

That's the First and Second Law of Thermodynamics!
 
Yeah nat...we can help you bomb physics just as well as anyone else!!!
 
Guess your dumb then, cause this is not from a highschool text book. So smarty pants what is Entropy and for that matter is it revrsible?
 
First, you are absolutely wrong. It is not a measure of disorder. It is a measure of the number of accesible states within a system. What you were taught in highschool is a the most simple of definitions possible.

The second law is based on statistics and quauntum mechanics. It is not a measure of disorder as I stated before. For an isolated system you can reverse entropy without violating the law. I didn't happen to come across it in a highschool text, it happens to be in one of my graduate physics books
 
exxxxxcellllent thread - while we aree at it does anyone wish to discuss dynamics of the capital asset pricing model VS. option (black scholes) based pricing in modern portfolio theory or the tendency for market price action to approach continuance of Meta Cycle Elliott Wave paterrns while roughly correlating to time frames suggested within Kondratieff's Long Cycle - better yet lets digress into the importance of piece sacrifice in a 3min game to gain stategic advantage in the Kings Open vs the tactical strength of the Kings Indian and Sicilian defense and Kasparov's employment of it.

Ohhh yessssss...... and since we are here, why not talk about ROIDS. :D

:cool:
 
Chesty, stop being so mean. :)

Well, lets delve into theoretical physics here.

May actually came onto a topic worth mentioning.

1. The second law predicts the eventual HEAT DEATH
OF THE UNIVERSE.

According to hubble's constant the universe is expanding
and getting cooler(According to drops recorded in
Cosmic background radiation also. This just re-inforces
the second law)

2. Another topic which is probably a bit over everybodies
head.

Chaos theory(The study of entropic states). The underlying
premise is INFINITE CORRELATION.

Everything is related or everything can be REVERSED.

This of course is VERY theoretical. But nontheless is
worth mentioning.

The math involved however is SCARY.

It is tied with SuperGravity theories and super-strings.
(Unified Field theories so-to-speak)

Godspeed
 
Fonz, everytime you post I think of Henry Winkler, therefore this post is especially humourous. ;)
 
One interesting fact is that without the second law human beings could not exist.

Yes, one possibility is that the Universe will expand forever. What if it is static? Or if it stops expanding reverses and collapses on in on itself. Will entropy decrease or increase? Hmmmmmmmmmmme be mean? Never.
 
oopsie -- thought i was on th ebolic board :o

actually - chaos, string and quantum theory are interesting subjects indeed

chesty - the interesting ? is the singular event of big bang/creation a one time event or part of a continuous cycle? which is the same ? as expanding/colapsing ? really.

:cool:
 
Well it is kinda interesting....but last time I looked this was a bodybuilding related board. Also, not everybody finds it interesting.

There are probably many graduates on here in many disciplines. What would be truly lame is if we all started posting questions related to our own subjects.



chesty said:
Because this board was getting really lame with its content so I thought I would go and find out who knew the answer. And I find it really interesting.
Click to expand...
 
Justtryingnot2getfat said:
oopsie -- thought i was on th ebolic board :o

actually - chaos, string and quantum theory are interesting subjects indeed

chesty - the interesting ? is the singular event of big bang/creation a one time event or part of a continuous cycle? which is the same ? as expanding/colapsing ? really.

:cool:
Click to expand...

We're in basic astrophysics territory here.

1. The Universe is expanding. True. This is IRREFUTABLE.

So, it can either:

1. Keep expanding.(Which would lead to the eventual heta death
of the universe)

2. Expand TO A POINT, then CONTRACT into itself.
(This latter theory CANNOT EVER BE PROVEN btw)


As a tid-bit, The creation of the Cosmos has NO TIME
DIMENSION as time DID NOT EXIST before the
Big Bang.

Remember that time IS RELATED to space(x,y,z)
according to general relativity. During ther Big-bang
THERE WAS NO SPACE.

So, WHATEVER CREATED THE UNIVERSE IS
NON-LINEAR.

Hehe, bet you didn't know that one.

Godspeed

And Chesty, whats your take on faster-than-light speed
travel?

An interesting little known fact is that a velocity faster than
light speed has been achieved in water(Light goes slower
in this medium though according to the density index
of water). Nuclear reactors is where it happens.

Godspeed
 
I believe it is possible, however, it will take a special engine one that can warp space and time or in other words fool physics into think we are always sub luminal while we travel faster than light. Particles do exist such as tachyon's that are bound to speeds greater than light.

Last time I checked this was the chat and conversation board. The bb board is on a different section. Anything can be discussed here. If you don't like the topic don't read it.
 
chesty said:
One interesting fact is that without the second law human beings could not exist.

Yes, one possibility is that the Universe will expand forever. What if it is static? Or if it stops expanding reverses and collapses on in on itself. Will entropy decrease or increase? Hmmmmmmmmmmme be mean? Never.
Click to expand...

Actually what's really interesting is NONE of these "LAWS" would exist without humans! It's just the "IS" and all these laws are just a way for humans to feel like they "REALLY" understand the universe when in actuality by creating all these "LAWS" you take away from it not add to it.


:D
 
ahhh yes.....thermodynamics...like a bad hangover comming back in blotches...

But question for you: why is chair the most stable configuration? And does rule have any exceptions?

(ps. I don't know the answer to this.....I was told it probably way back when, but I was probably to busy trying to get those freakin' carbon balls to stop popping of the damn sticks!!!)
 
Hey Shaggs my girl where you been?

Captain whatever, I know your kind your not fit to lick the sweat off my balls
 
Your just another RyanH oh well, gues we gotta take the good with the bad.
 
Hi Chesty:) I think Captain Awesome is worried you might be threathening his awesome stature........

but I must applaude him on his snappy comeback....not too shabby....not too shabby at all...
 
Captain Awesome:

THATS exactly the type of response I'd expect from
a person who is angry at not being able to understand
concepts that others can grasp.
If people followed your ridiculous rationale we'd still be
stuck in the stone age.

Grow up, and educate yourself.
Furthermore, concepts learned in high school
are SO BASIC its not even funny.

The more knowledge you possess, the more
enlightened you become.

I'l bet you read a book a year. LOL

Pretty pathetic little boy.

Godspeed

Shag-o-ma-tic is ba-ck hehe.....(couldn't resist LOL)
 
So, WHATEVER CREATED THE UNIVERSE IS
NON-LINEAR.

Hehe, bet you didn't know that one.
Click to expand...


actually Fonz, i did :D

the continuous expansion of the universe (vs. cyles of collapse and expansion) is a rather strong evidense of a creative event, and thus a Creator. This Creator provided the enormous energy that composes the mass of the universe and thus by definition must reside outside of it nor is bounded on a linear (expanding) time scale. Thus God exists. :eek:

More importantly, due to the laws of evolution and natural selection we previously thought that with enough effort, in theory, the continuation of life as well as inannimate matter could be accurately measured and thus capable of predicting (in theory) future existence. this leaves us with Deism at best and a God who, having once set the clock is no longer at the controls. Alternatively, you could have a God to whom EVERY action is attributable as divine writ - this seems to us a "cruel" Deity for allowing murderers to work thier way or cataclismic events to occur to the detriment of human (or animal or even plant) life.

Fortunately, via our increasing understanding of quantum theory, we understand that while evolutionary theory is an excellant predictor of both past and present occurrences and modalities, it can only do so as a statistical mean!!!! What quantum theory then shows is that a small but certain amount of all matter cannot be predicted as to what state it will flux into at any one occurrence - the idea that statistically the coin toss will approach 50% but it is impossible to determin the outcome of each flip - notice the outcome is not totally random (it must be ahead or tail not a 5) but indeterminite. Yet enormous ramifications could be depending upon this one flip (especially if u will owe the bookie 50K u dont have if u lose).

This leaves us with a Deity who set the origional clock, who allows the seemingly external (to us and Him) ellement of chance and natural selection to predominate and thus cannot be attributed to for all happenings (tho being outside of time He may be aware of the eventual outcome) yet has left room to influence events, and is thus active, in the universe (and our) affairs.

THIS is, methinks a topic worthy of discussion.

:cool:
 
i dont see anything in that whole piece of crap you wrote that gives any evidence of the existence of some deity.
Click to expand...

that is because it requires two very important capabilities that you seem to be unwilling to avail yourself of:

1) reading
2) thinking

by availing yourself of these quite natural gifts that all posess to some varying degree you might (or might not) be able to coordinate an elightening and meaningful response based on at least a remote understanding of the premise here undertaken - whether it agrees with my conclusions or not.

:cool:
 
Well that may be, but It does bring up an interesting point.

Suppose for an instance at the moment just prior to the Big bang, what was outside of the singularity? and what was outside of it? To what are we expanding into and to what will we collapse into (if we do collapse)

By the way, the crap I have spewed so far, I do use to make a living and quite a good one.

I also, do not believe that any of this is above anyones head and I am probably the least able to comprehend most of what physics is and talked about.
 
CaptainAwesome said:
listen i read and understood everything. so you figure that because a coin toss is not always exactly 50 percent heads and 50 percent tails that god must have predetermined the results of the coin toss? thats retarded. you try to make it sounds smart by throwing in the words quantum physics but you dont even use any quantum physics.


you mention the big bang theory and say the power needed to cause the bang had to have been provided by god. well then why didnt the mass have to have been provided by god? obviously people who believe in the big bang theory dont believe the mass was provided by god so why the hell should they believe the energy was provided by god? you gave absolutely no more evidence than the obvious crap that has been said a million times.

you just said a bunch of crap and then said it proves there must have been a god, but in reality nothing you said proved the existence of a god. it was a bunch of bull. you may be able to fool a moron into thinking your intelligent by throwing in some fancy words but anyone with half a brain can see your entire argument is bullshit.
Click to expand...

If I started to explain Quantum physics to you you'd probably
die from brain overload.

You strike me as a small-minded little-boy who just shuns
what he can't grasp/explain.

The reason this whole conversation is being kept in SIMPLEST
TERMS is for EASE OF COMMUNICATION you fool.!!!!!

In case you're wondering I STUDY AEROSPACE(masters), chesty
has done aerospace also, so we're qualified to talk about it.

And to answer your previous retard post, my financial burdens have
already been taken care of. Hence, I can devote my time to
RESEARCH.
I really do pity you. You think life is just about making money????
I'd rather contribute something to the human race as a whole than
just make pots and pots of money.

Your type of mentality is going to get you nowhere.

Judging from your responses, this whole thread is way over your
head anyways. Go take a hike, you're embarrassing yourself
more and more each time you post.


Godspeed
 
well i must say that that is an improvement.

so you figure that because a coin toss is not always exactly 50 percent heads and 50 percent tails that god must have predetermined the results of the coin toss? thats retarded. you try to make it sounds smart by throwing in the words quantum physics but you dont even use any quantum physics.
Click to expand...

acutallyy quite the opposite - it is always 50% if a large enough statistical sample is taken yet the outcome of each flip is indeterminate. a better example is light which we always thought to act simply as a wave. yet we find that in shining it into a mirror a certain number of particals would pass through it rather than be refracted or reflected. perhaps it is 95:5 ratio but still significant. the problem is of course there is NO WAY of knowing which 5 of the 100 IDENTICAL light particles will pass through beforehand. - this is also a current problem with fiberoptic transmissions over teh long haul, tho they are building better mirrors, it seems that it can never be perfect.

the point is the law of natural selection would indicate either that there is no God or he is a Deist (now inactive)entity or a God who keeps the worlds a spinning by a "miracle" since all things could be measured (and thus determined) by observable physical laws and forces - the quantum theory adds chance back into the mix which kills all three possibilities becase chance alone doesnt explain the resulting end of the paleo charts (people) nor the functioning of the universe. if we look at the diversity of life before us there is little reason to think that the extint creatures would not have survived and so some unseen push (tho not necessarily a deity but then what?) seems to have come along at crucial times in life and the universes development. the proofs of thisare long and well regarded by even the most dedicated eveolutionists (btw: i do not ? evolution's occurrence only its significance). chance also opens up the power of choice to a previously deterministic fate devoid of meaning since "the fittest will alway ssurvive". this gives a Deity a hand in human affairs while preserving the consequenses of our own free will and resulting actions.

as to the big bang - go read a bit more - see what hawking and others believe -penrose is an athiest to be sure but even he is unable to disprove the significance of a singular event and a continually expanding universe.

:cool:
 
To help humanity does not require a financial gain. You either want to because it pleases you to do so or you are selfish like most of us and do it because it makes you money and ups your position in life. Nothing wrong with that.

I do not believe in a god at all, I do not not have the answers either. But I find it interesting. In fact a Star Trek episode, where Dr. Crusher was trapped in a warp bubble was a very convincing theory to the multiple universe's and that we tend to create our own reality.
 
it is fortunate that the Deity in whom i belive is more merciful and suffering of such people than i but i do believe he spoke about you in his book - "the fool has said in his heart, there is no God" :D


BTW: the point is there is no definitive proff of God - and i think he wants it taht way - its call ed faith. Yet science has certainly not disproved His existence but rather offerred insite why He is necessary.

chesty -
Suppose for an instance at the moment just prior to the Big bang, what was outside of the singularity? and what was outside of it? To what are we expanding into and to what will we collapse into (if we do collapse)
Click to expand...

good ? and here is a similar tact - all matter=energy and energy cannot be created or destroyed and is thus constant in the universe - where the heck did all the energy come from????? to create a singular event that enabled expansion to happen at just teh precise rate in order to form stars and planets without turning into all heavy elements that could never support life.


BTW: both of u guys are way above me im sure astrophysics, cosmology and paleontology/paleoarthropology origin theory are hobbies which i can indulg in all too infrequently

but to me it is vital to understand the importance of the answer than to only know how to obtain it.


:cool:
 
what book am i talking about??? have u actually read it?

have u read the koran/haidith, teh torah/talmud, the bible, zen philosophy, the Bhagavad Gita or studied zoroastrianism?? when u have read even a few let me know - i want to see if your search for God has been as indolent as your interest in science.

God speaks to each and everyperson seperately - and thus each one is responsible for his/her own actions and their reprecussions - that is what newton's third law is for :D

:cool:
 
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actually i have read most of that "crap". and while i happen to believe only one version of those listed (well 2 actually excepting that jewish tradition doesnt have the same meaning for me) but i have a profound respect fo rthaose who have at least tried to understand the Divine voice that calls to all people even if i believe that they have not yet ofund its source. unfortunately u sound mentally lazy - unwilling to search for meaning in your life - if you live long enough to have time to contemplate life's end i am well persuaded that you will regret this oversite.

it is only those who recognise their illness can seek to be made whole.

:cool:
 
Who said the creator had to be a being? That's what I don't get. The term can be neuter. The term could also mean an abstract reaction being the creator. I think people take the term "creator", and use it a little too literally to use it as another arguement in an arsenal to prove a god-like being exists. Could be just an infinite chain of events. i think there's one law or theory that says that time has no beginning or end, it's infinite. So there couldn't be anything before time then, it was just always there, started by no one, or no thing. But i don't really care, I have better things to do than to be some spiritualistic monk sitting atop a high mountain peak trying to comprehend the whole meaning of life or whatever. When we're dead it ain't gonnamatter anyway, and if we actually know it while we're alive, it ain't going to help us out either, so.......
 
well actually - BI, science has not completely closed the issue but most are agreed or grumblingly resigned to a continually expanding universe with a singular point of origin. and this strongly points to tho certainly doesnt prove an external force or intelligence of some kind (tho not necessarily a religious deity, but again if not, then who or what?) why is this a strong indication? well, that will take a little reading on ur part (cause i dont ave the tiem to give it in this post) but even those who have a better understanding of astrophysics and cosmology than i yet do not chose to beleve as i do will easily confirm this.

:cool:
 
CaptainAwesome said:
just because all these religions and explanations of existence and so on exist why am i obligated to read them to get a better understanding? ... reading any more is a waste of time. ... so i dont see a point in wasting any more time with it. ... so why bother reading things ...
Click to expand...

Bullshit. This is the third page of this thread.
If you truely thought this was a waste of time you would have moved on to destroy another thread.
By your actions (staying here on this thread) you prove it is interesting to you.

For my part, I've forgotten more physics than I ever knew.
But the quantum mechanics part is really interesting.
I have studied enough asian philosophy and religion to see parallels in this thread.
The asian "big bang singularity" is described as God becoming self aware, woke up, realizing he was both himself and other, physical and spiritual, matter vs anti-matter, duality in all its forms. And in the act of God "waking up" all creation came into being, duality became the norm.

I suppose that analogy doesn't do much for science but I found it pleasant, comforting, relating something so incomprehensible as the creation of everything to something so human as waking up.
 
Captain I challenge you to say anything positive.
On any topic, your choice.
Something you care about and believe in and have something positive to say.
I don't think you can.
 
CaptainAwesome said:
whats pathetic is that you think that reading books is a measure of someones intelligence. people always associate reading books with intelligence, why? any kid out of grade school can read books. anyway, your attempts to sound smart are so pathetic. the stuff that you talked about that you think is over people's heads is all very simple and you also made no solid statements. what does anyone even learn from your pathetic attempts to sound intelligent? you could never apply anything you said to make yourself a penny.
Click to expand...

LOL...sorry I take it back...your not so awesome...way to come back with "intelligent" reasoning....
 
tubby74 said:


Actually what's really interesting is NONE of these "LAWS" would exist without humans! It's just the "IS" and all these laws are just a way for humans to feel like they "REALLY" understand the universe when in actuality by creating all these "LAWS" you take away from it not add to it.


:D
Click to expand...

No.

These laws of how the universe operates have existed since before we have. We didn't just make them up, haha! They are constant, testable, applicable, and observable. They aren't just babble. Humans didn't create these laws, we merely observe and record them. We can prove they are real.

We have simply interpreted them in forms we can undestand (mathematics) so we may better understand the universe in which we live.

How can our need to fully comprehend our environment through the scientific method be anything but noble? How are we "taking away from the universe" by trying to understand it? That argument holds no water.

Also, no one pretends to understand the universe. It's still largely enigmatic to us but as we continually unravel it's mysteries, it becomes even more beautiful as we see it in it's grand simplicity. By advancing our knowledge base through science, we elevate ourselves in the face of traditional and ritualistic bullshit that numbs our curiosities, kills progression, and stagnates us as a species.
 
I find something interesting in this long thread.

One it was a question about thermodynamics and somehow god came into play and it has turned into a thread of sceince vs religion.

A few points.

1. Just because there was a big bang doesn't point to the existence of god or a god. What was on the outside of the big bang (singularity) is a good topic for metaphysics, but truly we cannot know and by pointing that it must indicate god only reafirms what man does. We use science to explain things and when science cannot adequately explain a situation or event do we turn to the idea of god. The Greeks did it, the Romans did it and the Jewish and Christians as well. Especially when it comes to the topic of Pre birth/Post death. What was before the big bang, to what are we expanding into.

I liken our existence as the image in a mirror as reflected by a mirror. The reflectioin goes on for forever, infinitely deep into the mirror. Can it be that we are nothing more than a universe within a universe. A sub-level within a level. A lower or higher dimension within a given universe.

And if there is a god and it is outside of the big bang, then what is it in? What surrounds god? There must be a higher level of deity than that.

2. Time is an invention of man to measure his existence.

What about wasting time? How does one waste time? Since time is a concept. Time cannot be wasted since it always "flows" at the same rate and in the same direction (not withstanding possible time travel) It is a linear "motion" that cannot be thrown away. Certainly the concept of wasting time refers to someones useless pursuit of topics, ideas and activities that neither benifit the individual or the group. I refuse to believe that CaptainAwesome is wasting his time or ours. His antagonistic ways, bring him pleasure and cause us to further investigate our beliefs and ideas. Therefore, to his own end he is benfitting us all by his ways.
 
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