Questions that were never answered on the r-ALA thread.

[SteelWeaver]

I printed and reread the whole r-ALA thread this weekend. There are a couple of things still hanging that I'd really like to know the answers to, if someone could be so kind.

1) The insulin and protein synthesis question ... is taking r-ALA with postworkout simple carbs a good idea, considering you'd be losing some of the insulin spike?

I take it no-one's really sure about this one?

2) Is there any point whatsoever in a lean, exercising, DIETING female taking r-ALA? Low carbs, low GI. No-one ever specified on the thread if being hypo-, eu-, or hypercaloric made any difference.

 

[Ulter]

1.) If you are postworkout and you take the carbs the r-ALA will cause your muscle cells to accept more of the carbs. Anytime you can make your muscle cells accept more nutrients it's a good thing.

2.) Whatsoever? You are still getting the worlds most powerful anti-oxidant, it will still cause the neurotransmitters in your brain to act quicker so you think better, it will regenerate any other anti-oxidant you may have taken so it's effective longer, it protects your brains nerve cells from toxins, it causes your liver to regenerate cells, it protects your eye from developing cataracts, it increases the mitochondria's ability to make ATP, I have about 30 more of these but you get the point.

R-ALA will help anyone who takes it in so many ways it's almost inconceivable that it's not being used by every person on the planet. It will help you get stronger and train better and have better fed muscle cells no matter who you are.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Thank you, ulter. FYI I have actually ordered some, since I noticed I was getting quite good results on refeeds with a LOT of the rs-ALA. The problem I have with that stuff on regular dieting days though (for anti-oxidant purposes) is that it just knocks me out, so I just skip it. That's why I was wondering about r-ALA and what type of caloric levels one is on. Is it going to knock me out in the same way? (Yeah, I'm keeping an eye on CC's thread - will ask there too I guess).

I did read some of the stuff at the AF site - haven't had time to read it all, but will eventually . I guess I'm primarily interested in it as a nutrient repartitioner, but I can't see how carbs can be going to fat stores when hypocaloric.

 

[MS]

1)The protein synthesis issue is still pretty hazy. I’m still pondering the value of r-ALA post workout in terms of it’s ability to dispose of more glucose than your body is already primed to dispose of. The most current work in RATS would indicate that r-ALA supplementation in non-obese, non-diabetic rats did not offer any additional glucose disposal benefits in the post-exercise state, compared to exercise alone. It seems to me there are only so many GLUT4 receptors to go around, and either exercise OR r-ALA supplementation will bring most of these receptors to the cell surface. There's not much evidence that you need both:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11744642&dopt=Abstract


2) r-ALA can be beneficial for supporting and recycling glutathione redox reactions (ie as an antioxidant). Whether or not this translates to meaningful results on an individual basis depends on your own redox status. Normally, given a good diet and plenty of rest, your body is quite capable of buffering it’s own antioxidant defenses. However I’m pretty sure a lot of dieting bodybuilders do not live a perfectly healthy existence, and r-ALA almost certainly won’t hurt! It basically donates a sulfur group much the same as some of the thiocyanates found in brassicas and other veggies known to be high in antioxidants. Quite possibly many of the brassicas grown for commercial consumption these days may be low in these naturally occurring compounds. So if you’re not eating a lot of organically grown fresh broccoli, cabbage, cress, etc…then r-ALA supps are a good idea.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12092978&dopt=Abstract

The possibly bad news (again in rats…) is that it took 150mg of r-ALA per kilo per day to completely abolish signs of exercise induced oxidation!!! And as far as I know, the mixed isomer of ALA works just as well for antioxidant purposes (both r- and s- enantiomers can donate sulfur groups equally well).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10194202&dopt=Abstract

As and aside that I haven’t really seen any research on, there is the potential of r-ALA to improve insulin resistance which is often increased during the luteal phase in women. So it may be better at some times of the month than others.

As for caloric status, it’s another topic that needs more exploration. It’s not obvious to me how it would help someone who is hypocaloric unless it were assisting them to get over some pre-exsisting insulin resistance. The common belief amongst life-extensionists is that chronic low cal diets extend lifespan by reducing total insulin secreted, both by decreasing total carb intake and increasing sensitivity to any carbs consumed, reducing total body oxidation (thus reducing the need for antioxidants) and a host of other domino effects. In this sitch, the body would normally make plenty of the r-ALA it needs for good health. It’s only the addition of modern shitty lifestyles that makes supps like r-ALA beneficial IMHO. If you don’t do the modern lifestyle, you don’t need the supps. However bodybuilders are an extreme example, and no one can honestly say there’s evidence either way. r-ALA may allow you to eat more carbs for the same amount of insulin release. This may be a good thing or a bad thing (or neutral) in the long term. So just try it and see what you think. Definitely use it for carb-ups!

 

[Fonz]

1)The protein synthesis issue is still pretty hazy. I’m still pondering the value of r-ALA post workout in terms of it’s ability to dispose of more glucose than your body is already primed to dispose of. The most current work in RATS would indicate that r-ALA supplementation in non-obese, non-diabetic rats did not offer any additional glucose disposal benefits in the post-exercise state, compared to exercise alone. It seems to me there are only so many GLUT4 receptors to go around, and either exercise OR r-ALA supplementation will bring most of these receptors to the cell surface. There's not much evidence that you need both:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11744642&dopt=Abstract


2) r-ALA can be beneficial for supporting and recycling glutathione redox reactions (ie as an antioxidant). Whether or not this translates to meaningful results on an individual basis depends on your own redox status. Normally, given a good diet and plenty of rest, your body is quite capable of buffering it’s own antioxidant defenses. However I’m pretty sure a lot of dieting bodybuilders do not live a perfectly healthy existence, and r-ALA almost certainly won’t hurt! It basically donates a sulfur group much the same as some of the thiocyanates found in brassicas and other veggies known to be high in antioxidants. Quite possibly many of the brassicas grown for commercial consumption these days may be low in these naturally occurring compounds. So if you’re not eating a lot of organically grown fresh broccoli, cabbage, cress, etc…then r-ALA supps are a good idea.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12092978&dopt=Abstract

The possibly bad news (again in rats…) is that it took 150mg of r-ALA per kilo per day to completely abolish signs of exercise induced oxidation!!! And as far as I know, the mixed isomer of ALA works just as well for antioxidant purposes (both r- and s- enantiomers can donate sulfur groups equally well).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10194202&dopt=Abstract

As and aside that I haven’t really seen any research on, there is the potential of r-ALA to improve insulin resistance which is often increased during the luteal phase in women. So it may be better at some times of the month than others.

As for caloric status, it’s another topic that needs more exploration. It’s not obvious to me how it would help someone who is hypocaloric unless it were assisting them to get over some pre-exsisting insulin resistance. The common belief amongst life-extensionists is that chronic low cal diets extend lifespan by reducing total insulin secreted, both by decreasing total carb intake and increasing sensitivity to any carbs consumed, reducing total body oxidation (thus reducing the need for antioxidants) and a host of other domino effects. In this sitch, the body would normally make plenty of the r-ALA it needs for good health. It’s only the addition of modern shitty lifestyles that makes supps like r-ALA beneficial IMHO. If you don’t do the modern lifestyle, you don’t need the supps. However bodybuilders are an extreme example, and no one can honestly say there’s evidence either way. r-ALA may allow you to eat more carbs for the same amount of insulin release. This may be a good thing or a bad thing (or neutral) in the long term. So just try it and see what you think. Definitely use it for carb-ups!

Haha.....you don't know how wrong you are........(j/k)

Wait till 9/23.

Fonz

 

[SteelWeaver]

What's happening on 9/23, Fonz?



Thank you MS. I appreciate the links. So in that first study, at 30mg/kg, the dosage for an 80kg person would be 2400mg per day. Assuming one chose to follow that formula (ignoring for the moment what has been said about dosages on the various threads here) that's 24 of the AF caps, and there are a 100 in a bottle, so 1 bottle would last 4 days, $5 per day. Not cheap, considering intense exercise would appear to have the same effect.

I think I'm gonna save the expensive stuff for carb-ups, and see how I go with the rs stuff for daily anti-oxidant purposes, depending on how tired it makes me. However, again, even though a rat study, that third one works out to 12g a day or so for an 80kg person to abolish exercise induced oxidation .... Even at kilosports prices that's steep, assuming one were interested in following experimental protocols. And I'm pretty sure the acid bile wouldn't take long to come up ...

Would be very interested in hearing how people go on the protein synthesis question ...

 

[Fonz]

A little glucose disposing experiment will be released.

Fonz

 

[MS]

Just to be clear, rats are not like humans, and just because the researchers gave the rats that much ALA to elicit a response, it doesn't mean that they NEEDED that much ALA. This is a big problem in a lot of pharmaceutical research......overdosing rats. Many drugs exhibit a hyperbolic dose response curve, in other words if you give a rat/human TOO much of a drug, you can actually get the opposite response to what you might see at a more moderate therapeutic dose. Too much can mimic too little if you get what I mean. This is prolly to do with upregulation of drug metabolizing enzymes, down regulation of receptors, and/or depletion of substrate (to name a few). So you almost certainly don't *need* 30mg per kilo to get an antioxidant effect. The r,s- should be fine as an anti-ox. Fonz may have some research that will also show that he benefitted from taking the r-enantiomer on a hypocaloric diet (reduced blood glucose), although I don't think his experiment was designed to test differences in protein synthesis, fat loss or oxidant protection. He will certainly correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he's testing the difference in glucose disposal between the mixed raceme versus the r-ALA using an alternate day design. But we must all wait and see

To answer many of you questions would involve a lot of non-trivial research in lean, exercising humans on a hypocaloric diet. I don't think it's gonna happen on a clinical scale in the near future!

 

[rez]

so does the type of carb you digest after taking the ALA/r-ALA matter?
E.g. would eating a fat-free icecream, rice or fruit - all simple carbs have the same after effect on one's body..ie not be stored as fat?

 

[SteelWeaver]

Sure, I kinda figured as much with the rats - but if researchers are aware they're OD'ing the rats, why do they do it?

I've been watching Fonz's sticky - looks interesting, but it will still be results for one exercising, lean male. I guess it's time for us all to get ourselves a glucometer and start measuring away! I don't suppose you're monitoring anything specific, MS?

The main thing I've noticed, just playing around with rs-ALA amounts on refeeds, is that the sub-Q water retention is MUCH reduced with gram-type dosages - like up to 3g on full day refeed. Strangely, actual mass loss has levelled off, since I started this 2 Saturdays ago, but leanness is increasing. But again, other factors, like luteal phase, may come into play here. Besides that, I've had some odd strength increases lately, and feel less like death further from refeeds. This all with rs-ALA, interested to see the diff when I get the r-ALA.

Speaking of which, have we already covered refeed day dosages for r-ALA?

rez - I dunno. Ice-cream contains lactose, fruit contains fructose, and rice (you mean white rice? - isn't rice a complex carb?) breaks down mostly to glucose I guess. Lactose and fructose tend to refill liver glycogen stores first, rather than muscle, but they all end up in the muscle eventually if you're hypocaloric, I think. If you're hypocaloric I don't see how much of anything can be stored as fat anyway ...