Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Hey guys i have a question for PWO shakes i know that you need some kind of simple sugar to get the insulin spike so that that the protien can be sent to your muscles faster. And i know that pure maltodextrin or dextrose is the best since there the simplest. But the thing is i cant buy any of those since my parents think anything besides protein shakes are steroids. So what can I use as a replacement. I was thinking of splenda since i have a shit load laying around and its ingredients are dextrose and/or maltodextrin and sucralose so i guess this would give me a insulin spike. My other options are table sugar or honey any suggestions???
PWO Shake Question
- Thread starter Killerpak
- Start date
SgtSlaughter
New member
Table suger or honey would work I think. Honey would be a better option. Adjust amounts according to your goals.
Gatorade would work too, it's just a "sports" drink.
Gatorade would work too, it's just a "sports" drink.
xblitz44x
New member
Oatmeal is also a great choice. JMT, as silly as it sounds, I know exactly what killerpack is going through. I'm 24 years old and out on my own and my mom still thinks 'creatine' is terrible for me and swears she's going to print out 'scientific evidence' that shows how bad it is for me.
SgtSlaughter
New member
^^ bad advice.xblitz44x said:
Oatmeal is a complex carb and not to be used for PWO.
SgtSlaughter
New member
sure they are "fine" ... do what you will bro... simple/fast acting carbs are more beneficial, no matter how you put it.
Blending/grinding down oats in a shake is different.. that'd be great, it's like pre-digesting them in turn taking some complexity away.
Blending/grinding down oats in a shake is different.. that'd be great, it's like pre-digesting them in turn taking some complexity away.
SgtSlaughter
New member
Lifterforlife...
alex2678
New member
Nutrition before your workout and during your workout are far more important at keeping the body from entering a catabolic state than post workout in my opinion. Just another way for supplement companies to market maltodextin for post workout use. (Coincidentally it's also the cheapest to produce) Some studies about post workout nutrition if you're interested in the topic:
Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.
Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.
Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.
The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.
Dietary strategies to promote glycogen synthesis after exercise.
Ivy JL.
Exercise Physiology and Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology and Health Education, The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX, USA.
Muscle glycogen is an essential fuel for prolonged intense exercise, and therefore it is important that the glycogen stores be copious for competition and strenuous training regimens. While early research focused on means of increasing the muscle glycogen stores in preparation for competition and its day-to-day replenishment, recent research has focused on the most effective means of promoting its replenishment during the early hours of recovery. It has been observed that muscle glycogen synthesis is twice as rapid if carbohydrate is consumed immediately after exercise as opposed to waiting several hours, and that a rapid rate of synthesis can be maintained if carbohydrate is consumed on a regular basis. For example, supplementing at 30-min intervals at a rate of 1.2 to 1.5 g CHO x kg(-1) body wt x h(-1) appears to maximize synthesis for a period of 4- to 5-h post exercise. If a lighter carbohydrate supplement is desired, however, glycogen synthesis can be enhanced with the addition of protein and certain amino acids. Furthermore, the combination of carbohydrate and protein has the added benefit of stimulating amino acid transport, protein synthesis and muscle tissue repair. Research suggests that aerobic performance following recovery is related to the degree of muscle glycogen replenishment.
Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.
Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.
Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.
The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.
Dietary strategies to promote glycogen synthesis after exercise.
Ivy JL.
Exercise Physiology and Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology and Health Education, The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX, USA.
Muscle glycogen is an essential fuel for prolonged intense exercise, and therefore it is important that the glycogen stores be copious for competition and strenuous training regimens. While early research focused on means of increasing the muscle glycogen stores in preparation for competition and its day-to-day replenishment, recent research has focused on the most effective means of promoting its replenishment during the early hours of recovery. It has been observed that muscle glycogen synthesis is twice as rapid if carbohydrate is consumed immediately after exercise as opposed to waiting several hours, and that a rapid rate of synthesis can be maintained if carbohydrate is consumed on a regular basis. For example, supplementing at 30-min intervals at a rate of 1.2 to 1.5 g CHO x kg(-1) body wt x h(-1) appears to maximize synthesis for a period of 4- to 5-h post exercise. If a lighter carbohydrate supplement is desired, however, glycogen synthesis can be enhanced with the addition of protein and certain amino acids. Furthermore, the combination of carbohydrate and protein has the added benefit of stimulating amino acid transport, protein synthesis and muscle tissue repair. Research suggests that aerobic performance following recovery is related to the degree of muscle glycogen replenishment.
SgtSlaughter
New member
There's always an arguement for both sides of EVERY story.
I assure you if one's bulking fast carbs are much better... think of it like a fat kid that eats simple sugars all day... get it?
I assure you if one's bulking fast carbs are much better... think of it like a fat kid that eats simple sugars all day... get it?
rocky_road
New member
I was going to start a similiar thread, but I figured i'd post it here instead. What about Muscle Milk PWO?
I had this tonight because it was like the only thing I really wanted.
I drank a 220 serving about 30 minutes after my leg and elliptical work-out.
Before this I had milk with a roast beef sandwich on a 200-calorie wheat bun (first ingrediant contained the word "enriched" in it....I can't seem to find a 100% whole wheat bun, I'm going to start using 100% whole wheat bread instead) ..... My question is, did I get enough carbohydrates tonight?
If it helps, at lunch I had a chicken salad, an apple, and milk
I had this tonight because it was like the only thing I really wanted.
I drank a 220 serving about 30 minutes after my leg and elliptical work-out.
Before this I had milk with a roast beef sandwich on a 200-calorie wheat bun (first ingrediant contained the word "enriched" in it....I can't seem to find a 100% whole wheat bun, I'm going to start using 100% whole wheat bread instead) ..... My question is, did I get enough carbohydrates tonight?
If it helps, at lunch I had a chicken salad, an apple, and milk
rocky_road
New member
Also, would it be bad for me to have only Muscle Milk as my last meal of the day, and the only thing consumed after my work out?
zaxxon1982
New member
Killerpak said:
My first recommendation would be to have them read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dextrose (especially the "Sources and Absorption" section).
If that doesn't work, Protein Factory lets you make custom blends where you can include however much dextrose or maltodextrin you want in a powder. Order that and then tell your parents it's a "protein shake" since they seem to be okay with those.
gymratforlife
Banned
If your bulking its fine to use muscle milk as your last meal,I would definetly not use it pwo,your only asking to put on excess fat.Your pwo should always be fat free.rocky_road said:
rocky_road
New member
gymratforlife said:If your bulking its fine to use muscle milk as your last meal,I would definetly not use it pwo,your only asking to put on excess fat.Your pwo should always be fat free.
Even AT NIGHT? Isn't it good to take fats at night, even if post-workout?
I don't see how this puts on excess fat--I need calories post workout and it's a good source of protein. Their are more protein grams in it than fat...
alex2678
New member
Usually you don't want to consume fats post workout because they slow the absorbtion of proteins and carbs, but if it's your last meal of the day before bed then you should be fine. As long as you're not going above your daily maintenence calories you shouldn't gain fat. Try to have some proteins and carbs 1/2 -1 hour before your workout if you're not doing so already. A lot of people are getting better workouts doing this. 
gymratforlife
Banned
The theory behind having a high sugar,high protein no fat meal is that the muscles are like a sponge after you train and will take in what ever you give it more readily than any other time in the day.If you feed it a high fat shake like muscle the insulin spike will drive all the fat directly into your fat cells along with the protein and carbs,if you dont mind gaining a little fat its fine but if your trying to stay lean there are much better choices pwo.Now before bed time if its not pwo you can have a efa/protein meal as the efa will slow down the digestion of the proteins.rocky_road said:
rocky_road
New member
gymratforlife said:The theory behind having a high sugar,high protein no fat meal is that the muscles are like a sponge after you train and will take in what ever you give it more readily than any other time in the day.If you feed it a high fat shake like muscle the insulin spike will drive all the fat directly into your fat cells along with the protein and carbs,if you dont mind gaining a little fat its fine but if your trying to stay lean there are much better choices pwo.Now before bed time if its not pwo you can have a efa/protein meal as the efa will slow down the digestion of the proteins.
OK. so what about pwo if it happens to be the last meal of the day?
gymratforlife
Banned
Take a Pwo shake consisting of dextrose/maltodextrin and protein.I usually just take 16 ounces of gatorade and add 2 scoops of protein powder and mix it in my trusty protein shaker bottle from bodybuilding.com.I like practical and convenient over good taste.rocky_road said:
SgtSlaughter
New member
rocky_road said:
I also train at night and I'm also using Muscle Milk right now... it tastes so damn good, but after I finish it I'm going to create my own protein/carb PWO drink using separate ingredients.... I say why not use it up?
I go by trial and error ALOT... and this is "ok" PWO... but i'm realizing it's not lately... i need way more carbs cuz i lightheaded mid workout today
also finally tallying my damn macros, ect.... so...PWO is your last meal? Try making it a During workout shake.... i do that too sometimes depending on what time i hit the gym so i fit in another meal after. If you do that add some simple carbs to the muscle milk.
alex2678
New member
I'll be starting my workout in around 15 minutes (one of those 24 hr. gyms. Love this work schedule. ) Had a pound of grilled chicken and brown rice an hour ago and my post workout final meal should be at around 12:35 with Conan O'Brien. 3 scoops of whey, carb countdown skim milk and some maple & brown sugar oats. Cheers! 
) Had a pound of grilled chicken and brown rice an hour ago and my post workout final meal should be at around 12:35 with Conan O'Brien. 3 scoops of whey, carb countdown skim milk and some maple & brown sugar oats. Cheers! 
JKurz1
Banned
It just doesn't matter.
Either will work!
The key, however, is with high GI, the prolong absorbation rate could keep insul levels elevated with we all know when insulin is elevated the ability to burn fat is halted and could lead to a greater chance of adipose storage than with low GI CHO sources.
Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.
Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.
The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.
Either will work!
The key, however, is with high GI, the prolong absorbation rate could keep insul levels elevated with we all know when insulin is elevated the ability to burn fat is halted and could lead to a greater chance of adipose storage than with low GI CHO sources.
Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.
Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.
The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.
JKurz1
Banned
Costill DL.
The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.
The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.
JKurz1
Banned
I do not believe in High GI for the simple fact that restoring muscle glycogen takes 36-72 hours. It doesn't all happen in the magical '1 hour PWO window.' That said I do agree there is somewhat of a window -- just not the mythical one lots of us have come to believe. Sometimes I do the oats/whey PWO while bulking, but I never have really exclusively focused on it.
Lifterforlife
New member
The problem with most of these studies about pwo is that they are done in the fasted state, so this really clouds things.
I seem to recall one study that looked at real world or long-term mass changes, (this is what it is all about in reality), but most studies including what is posted is all acute protein synthesis stuff.
One well done study I have for instance suggests protein synthesis is actually at 109% at the 24 hrt. period! But then it did not address the issue of with or without pwo carbs.
The main idea is not so much glycogen replenishment, as this is rate dependent anyway, and the typical weight workout is not that glycogen depleting, in fact, nowhere near, so unless you are doing some heavy endurance exercise or some ass long high volume training, the glycogen depletion thing is not that concerting to us.....so what is???
uptake of your nutrients and thus maybe jumpstarting recovery is what is at issue.
The oatmeal thing has been debated endlessly on bb.com, one guy says it is ok, a guy that is in "authority", Allen Argon I believe, he is the "resident" authority, and because he says it is ok, then it has been adopted. This does not make it so, and they use one study to "back" this, and one only.
My personal assessment is how I feel. That is, I have said on these boards that you need to "guage" your pwo nutrient intake to your energy expenditure. For example, on a heavy leg day, if I don't take in a hi gi carb/protein shake very soon after, I feel like dogcrap for long time. If I do, I recover quite nicely and can go on with my day just fine.
If I do an all arm day, and take in the same hi gi/protein drink, I crash and burn, can actually "feel" the excess blood sugar and subsequent crash. This in the end is what it is all about, guaging your pwo carbs to your energy expenditure.
As long as you are sensible about it, such as all fructose would be silly, you should be fine if your dietary intake is solid. I would point back to my "old days" before we had the internet and all this science.
We knew nothing about hi gi, low gi, did not even have whey protein. We worked out hard, drove home and ate like pigs. Did we gain, yep...and I don't just mean me, all the top guys too.
Think abot some of the eastern bloc guys that still to this day hold records...I bet they were just glad to eat, and didn't have a clue about whey or casein protein. "Science" these days can mess you up as much as help you.
I seem to recall one study that looked at real world or long-term mass changes, (this is what it is all about in reality), but most studies including what is posted is all acute protein synthesis stuff.
One well done study I have for instance suggests protein synthesis is actually at 109% at the 24 hrt. period! But then it did not address the issue of with or without pwo carbs.
The main idea is not so much glycogen replenishment, as this is rate dependent anyway, and the typical weight workout is not that glycogen depleting, in fact, nowhere near, so unless you are doing some heavy endurance exercise or some ass long high volume training, the glycogen depletion thing is not that concerting to us.....so what is???
uptake of your nutrients and thus maybe jumpstarting recovery is what is at issue.
The oatmeal thing has been debated endlessly on bb.com, one guy says it is ok, a guy that is in "authority", Allen Argon I believe, he is the "resident" authority, and because he says it is ok, then it has been adopted. This does not make it so, and they use one study to "back" this, and one only.
My personal assessment is how I feel. That is, I have said on these boards that you need to "guage" your pwo nutrient intake to your energy expenditure. For example, on a heavy leg day, if I don't take in a hi gi carb/protein shake very soon after, I feel like dogcrap for long time. If I do, I recover quite nicely and can go on with my day just fine.
If I do an all arm day, and take in the same hi gi/protein drink, I crash and burn, can actually "feel" the excess blood sugar and subsequent crash. This in the end is what it is all about, guaging your pwo carbs to your energy expenditure.
As long as you are sensible about it, such as all fructose would be silly, you should be fine if your dietary intake is solid. I would point back to my "old days" before we had the internet and all this science.
We knew nothing about hi gi, low gi, did not even have whey protein. We worked out hard, drove home and ate like pigs. Did we gain, yep...and I don't just mean me, all the top guys too.
Think abot some of the eastern bloc guys that still to this day hold records...I bet they were just glad to eat, and didn't have a clue about whey or casein protein. "Science" these days can mess you up as much as help you.
Lifterforlife
New member
rocky_road said:
I don't know why folks don't look at Muscle Milk as a pre workout drink as much as anything. Loaded with MCT's, which are fairly quickly digested and basically act like a good carb source, great for energy.
alex2678
New member
Lifterforlife and anyone else who's been working out for years:
Exactly when did PWO nutrition begin to get so popular? I remember reading some old magazines my uncle had from the 70's and there was just basic whole food eating bodybuilders who ate every few hours, trained hard and grew just as big if not bigger than the majority of people at any gym in the country. I think Arnold said he never ate anything immediately after a workout. Showered and layed out in the sun for a few hours then had his remaining meals. I personally don't really think any "theory" is set in stone and everyone has his own individual needs, but with all these studies and debates it got me curious. The health food industry wouldn't have anything to do with it would it?
Exactly when did PWO nutrition begin to get so popular? I remember reading some old magazines my uncle had from the 70's and there was just basic whole food eating bodybuilders who ate every few hours, trained hard and grew just as big if not bigger than the majority of people at any gym in the country. I think Arnold said he never ate anything immediately after a workout. Showered and layed out in the sun for a few hours then had his remaining meals. I personally don't really think any "theory" is set in stone and everyone has his own individual needs, but with all these studies and debates it got me curious. The health food industry wouldn't have anything to do with it would it?
Lifterforlife
New member
alex2678 said:Lifterforlife and anyone else who's been working out for years:
Exactly when did PWO nutrition begin to get so popular? I remember reading some old magazines my uncle had from the 70's and there was just basic whole food eating bodybuilders who ate every few hours, trained hard and grew just as big if not bigger than the majority of people at any gym in the country. I think Arnold said he never ate anything immediately after a workout. Showered and layed out in the sun for a few hours then had his remaining meals. I personally don't really think any "theory" is set in stone and everyone has his own individual needs, but with all these studies and debates it got me curious. The health food industry wouldn't have anything to do with it would it?
If you read my post, I indicated this exact same thing. I was starting my workout agenda when Arnold first came over here. He was relatively nothing at the time. I followed his career dilligently. I was a big fan of Franco Columbu, and liked Lou and Frank, Robby Robinson...I could mention a ton of the "old guys".
At that time, we did just as you mentioned, and I mentioned in my prior post. We went home and ate!
In the long run, it matters not what you do in some 18.5 minutes or some silly number post workout, it is what you do over days, months, years that add up to solid gains.
This is not to discount pwo importance, it makes sense the sooner you can get nutrients of some sort into your body, the sooner the recovery can ocurr. I believe as I have stated that to use common sense as to "what you need" according to how you trained. The more glycogen you depleted...i.e...endurance workout, multiple sets, high volume training, it would indeed make sense to have something quick uptake like simple carbs(dextrose for example).
****wanted to edit this to add....these days it seems if it is not complicated, it cannot be right! Do not make a thesis out of pwo, it is not that complicated, and shouldn't be.
SgtSlaughter
New member
Lifterforlife thanks for chimeing in on this thread!!
So true:"these days it seems if it is not complicated, it cannot be right! Do not make a thesis out of pwo, it is not that complicated, and shouldn't be."
We tend to overanalyze sometimes.
So true:"these days it seems if it is not complicated, it cannot be right! Do not make a thesis out of pwo, it is not that complicated, and shouldn't be.
"We tend to overanalyze sometimes.
alex2678
New member
LOL. Completely missed your post. (Scrolled down too fast from JKurz1 posts down to the bottom of the page) I agreed more with the Arnold era bodybuilders than anything else. Provided you're overloading your muscles with heavy weights and eating every few hours, you're going to have a constant flow of glucose and amino acids in your bloodstream regardless.
Of course Muscletech might disagree with me and say you need their "DNA enhancer" supplements to get the full effects from your workouts....
Of course Muscletech might disagree with me and say you need their "DNA enhancer" supplements to get the full effects from your workouts....
gymratforlife
Banned
Ill stick with the basics and drink my 16 ounces of gatorade with two scoops of protein powder and take my chances with that.
Protobuilder
New member
Great posts, lifterforlife. Lots of guys hit the KFC or Chinese Buffet on the way home and they grow just fine. I've heard it said a million times that if people spent 1/10 the energy on the rest of their daily diet as they do on that damn window, they'd be huge. LoL
SgtSlaughter
New member
lol... good points.
But then we get into the healthy versus not so healthy way of maintaining a bulking/cutting/bodybuilding diet.
But then we get into the healthy versus not so healthy way of maintaining a bulking/cutting/bodybuilding diet.
What's the PERFECT post workout drink percentage wise from Protein Factory?zaxxon1982 said:
I do the pwo drink of dex and whey with glut just cause I feel a lot less exhausted and sore after my workouts when taking it than when I've taken something else.
I'm considering experimenting dropping anything pwo entirely and just having the pwo meal the hour later.
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JKurz1
Banned
Do not overcomplicate...u have many options. Here's my thoughts on options:
oats/whey
rice cakes/whey
dextrose/whey
any carb source (pref. fast acting)/whey
AIM FOR .5G OF CARBS PER LBW AND .5G OF WHEY
ORRR....
WHOLE FOOD CARB SOURCE, AND WHEY SHAKE.
I think getting in the fast acting whey is much more important than the carb you choose.
oats/whey
rice cakes/whey
dextrose/whey
any carb source (pref. fast acting)/whey
AIM FOR .5G OF CARBS PER LBW AND .5G OF WHEY
ORRR....
WHOLE FOOD CARB SOURCE, AND WHEY SHAKE.
I think getting in the fast acting whey is much more important than the carb you choose.
Lifterforlife
New member
John WB said:
Personally, if your pre workout nutrition is solid, I think if you sip a diluted whey/carb mix during your workout(research shows the uptake of EAA's during to be high due to increased blood flow, and reduced muscle breakdown of course), then just go eat after would probably be good.
Again, why not judge this by your energy expenditure. As noted, if you did legs and feel totally wiped out, it would make sense to have a high gi/whey mix immediately pwo. Blood sugar can plummet during heavy training. So, if you are not doing anything during, or if your pre workout nutrition was weak...then having the high gi again serves the purpose of normalizing blood sugars through insulin. This has to happen before protein synthesis will take place.
But if you are sipping the EAA/carb mixture, you probably will not have this problem. Will help keep BG levels stablilized, thus no need for the dex/malto drink pwo.
And the bonus is by keeping BG levels normalized, performance will not suffer, and you should do as well on your last set as your first from an energy standpoint.
This is also the reason CEE for instance would be utilized best pre workout. CEE is is already taken up very quickly, and with increased blood flow from the pump, should be highly utilized.
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