Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply US-PHARMACIES UGL OZ
Raptor Labs UGFREAK OxygenPharm
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplyUS-PHARMACIES UGL OZUGFREAKRaptor LabsOxygenPharm

patriotism good, unquestioning sheep bad

strongchick

Well-known member
Subject: #A Special Forces Master Sergeant speaks to the evidence


> The so called Evidence Is a Farce
> By Stan Goff
> I'm a retired Special Forces Master Sergeant. That doesn't cut much
> for those who will only accept the opinions of former officers on
> military matters, since we enlisted swine are assumed to be incapable
> of grasping the nuances of doctrine.
>
> But I wasn't just in the army. I studied and taught military science
> and doctrine. I was a tactics instructor at the Jungle Operations
> Training Center in Panama, and I taught Military Science at West
> Point. And contrary to the popular image of what Special Forces does,
> SF's mission is to teach. We offer advice and assistance to foreign
> forces. That's everything from teaching marksmanship to a private to
> instructing a Battalion staff on how
to
> coordinate effective air operations with a sister service.
>
> Based on that experience, and operations in eight designated conflict
areas
> from Vietnam to Haiti, I have to say that the story we hear on the
> news and read in the newspapers is simply not believable. The most
> cursory glance at the verifiable facts, before, during, and after
> September 11th,
does
> not support the official line or conform to the current actions of the
> United States government.
>
> But the official line only works if they can get everyone to accept
> its underlying premises. I'm not at all surprised about the Republican
> and Democratic Parties repeating these premises. They are simply two
> factions within a single dominant political class, and both are
> financed by the same economic powerhouses. My biggest disappointment,
> as someone who identifies himself with the left, has been the tacit
> acceptance of those premises by others on the left, sometimes naively,
> and sometimes to score some morality points. Those premises are
> twofold. One, there is the premise that what this de facto
> administration is doing now is a
"response"
> to September 11th. Two, there is the premise that this attack on the
> World Trade Center and the Pentagon was done by people based in
> Afghanistan. In my opinion, neither of these is sound.
>
> To put this in perspective we have to go back not to September 11th,
> but
to
> last year or further.
>
> A man of limited intelligence, George W. Bush, with nothing more than
> his name and the behind-the-scenes pressure of his powerful father-a
> former President, ex-director of Central Intelligence, and an oil
> man-is systematically constructed as a candidate, at tremendous cost.
> Across the country, subtle and not-so-subtle mechanisms are put into
> place to disfranchise a significant fraction of the Democrat's
> African-American voter base. This doesn't come out until Florida
> becomes a battleground for Electoral
College
> votes, and the magnitude of the story has been suppressed by the
> corporate media to this day. In a decision so lacking in legitimacy,
> the Supreme Court will neither by-line the author of the decision nor
> allow
the
> decision to ever be used as a precedent, Bush v. Gore awards the
presidency
> of the United States to a man who loses the popular vote in Florida
> and loses the national popular vote by over 600,000.
>
> This de facto regime then organizes a very interesting cabinet. The
> Vice President is an oil executive and the former Secretary of
> Defense. The National Security Advisor is a director on the board of a
> transnational
oil
> corporation and a Russia scholar. The Secretary of State is a man with
> no diplomatic experience whatsoever, and the former Chair of the Joint
> Chiefs of Staff. The other interesting appointment is Donald Rumsfeld
> as Secretary of Defense. Rumsfeld is the former CEO of Searle
Pharmaceuticals.
> He and Cheney were featured as speakers at the May, 2000,
> Russian-American Business Leaders Forum. So the consistent currents in
this
> cabinet are petroleum, the former Soviet Union, and the military.
>
> Based on the record of Daddy Bush, in all his guises, and the general
> trajectory of US foreign policy as far back as the Carter
> Administration,
I
> feel I
> can reasonably conclude that Middle Eastern and South Asian fossil
> fuels are one of their major preoccupations. Not just because this
> klavern has some very direct financial interests in fossil fuel, but
> because they surely know that worldwide oil production is peaking as
> we speak, and will
soon
> begin a permanent and precipitous decline that will completely change
> the character of civilization as we know it within 20 years. Even the
> left seems to be in deep denial about this, but the math is available.
> And, no, alternative energies and energy technologies will not save
> us. All the alternatives in the world can not begin to provide more
> than a tiny fraction of the energy base now provided by oil. This
> makes it more than a resource, and the drive to control what's left
> more than an economic competition.
>
> I further conclude that the economic colonization of the former Soviet
> Union is probably high on that agenda, and in fact has a powerful
> synergy with the issue of petroleum. Russia not only holds vast
> untapped resources that beckon to imperialism in crisis, it remains a
> credible military and nuclear challenger in the region.
>
> We have not one, but three members of the Bush de facto cabinet with
> military credentials, which makes the cabinet look quite a lot like a
military
> General Staff. All this way before September 11th.
>
> Then there's the subject of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.
> NATO might have expected consignment to the dustbin of the Cold War
> after the Eastern Bloc shattered in 1991. Peace dividend and all that.
> But it
didn't.
> It expanded directly into the former states of the Eastern Bloc toward
> the former Soviet Union, and contributed significant forces to the
> devastation of Iraq-a key country in the world oil market, over which
> control translates into the ability to manipulate oil prices.
>
> NATO is a military formation, and the United States exerts the
> controlling interest in it. It seemed like a form without a function,
> but it remedied
that
> pretty quickly.
>
> Then when Yugoslavia refused to play ball with the International
> Monetary Fund, the US and Germany began a systematic campaign of
> destabilization there, even using some of the veterans of Afghanistan
> in that campaign.
>
> NATO became the military arm of that agenda-the break-up of Yugoslavia
into
> compliant statelets, the further containment of the former Soviet
> Union, and the future pipeline easement for Caspain Sea oil to Western
> European markets through Kosovo.
>
> You see, this is important to understand, and people-even those
> against
the
> war talk-are tending to overlook the significance of it. NATO is not a
> guarantor of international law, and it is not a humanitarian
> organization.
>
> It is a military alliance with one very dominant partner. And it can
> no longer claim to be a defensive alliance against European
> socialists. It is
an
> instrument of military aggression.
>
> NATO is the organization that is now going to thrust further along the
40th
> parallel from the Balkans through the Southern Asian Republics of the
> former Soviet Union. The US military has already taken control of a
> base
in
> Uzbekistan. No one is talking about how what we are doing seems to be
> a very logical extension of a strategy that was already in motion, and
> has been in motion for two decades. Once we recognize the pattern of
> activity designed to simultaneously consolidate control over Middle
> Eastern and South Asian oil, and contain and colonize the former
> Soviet Union, Afghanistan is exactly where they need to go to pursue
> that agenda.
>
> Afghanistan borders Iran, India, and even China but, more importantly,
> the Central Asian Republics of the former Soviet Union, Uzbekistan,
> Turkmenistan and Tajikistan. These border Kazakhstan. Kazakhstan
> borders Russia. Turkmenistan sits on the Southeastern quadrant of the
> Caspian Sea, whose oil the Bush Administration dearly covets.
>
> Afghanistan is necessary for two things: as a base of operations to
> begin the process of destabilizing, breaking off, and establishing
> control over the South Asian Republics, which will begin within the
> next 18-24 months in my opinion, and constructing a pipeline through
> Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan to deliver petroleum to the
> Asian market.
>
> The BBC was recently told by Niaz Naik, a Pakistani Foreign Secretary,
that
> senior American officials were warning them as early as mid-July that
> military action for mid-October was being planned for Afghanistan. In
1996,
> the Department of Energy was issuing reports on the desirability of a
> pipeline through Afghanistan, and in 1998, Unocal testified before the
> House Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific that this pipeline was
> crucial
to
> transport Caspian Basin oil to the Indian Ocean.
>
> Given this evidence that a military operation to secure at least a
> portion of Afghanistan has been on the table, possibly as early as
> five years ago,
I
> can't help but conclude that the actions we are seeing put into motion
> now are part of a pre-September 11th agenda. I'm absolutely sure of
> that, in fact. The planning alone for operations, of this scale, that
> are now
taking
> shape, would take many months. And we are seeing them take shape in
> mere weeks.
>
> It defies common sense. This administration is lying about this whole
thing
> being a "reaction" to September 11th. That leads me, in short order,
> to be very suspicious of their yet-to-be-provided evidence that
> someone in Afghanistan is responsible. It's just too damn convenient.
> Which also leads me to wonder-just for the sake of knowing-what
> actually did happen
on
> September 11th, and who actually is responsible.
>
> The so-called evidence is a farce. The US presented Tony Blair's
> puppet government with the evidence, and of the 70 so-called points of
> evidence, only nine even referred to the attacks on the World Trade
Center,
> and those points were conjectural. This is a bullshit story from
> beginning to end. Presented with the available facts, any 16-year old
> with a liking for courtroom dramas could tear this story apart like a
two-dollar
> shirt. But our corporate press regurgitates it uncritically. But then,
> as we should know by now, their role is to legitimize.
>
> This cartoon heavy they've turned bin Laden into makes no sense, when
> you begin to appreciate the complexity and synchronicity of the
> attacks. As a former military person who's been involved in the
> development of countless operations orders over the years, I can tell
> you that this was a very sophisticated and costly enterprise that
> would have left what we call a huge "signature".
>
> In other words, it would be very hard to effectively conceal.
>
> So there's a real question about why there was no warning of this.
> That
can
> be a question about the efficacy of the government's intelligence
> apparatus. That can be a question about various policies in the
> various agencies that had to be duped to orchestrate this action. And
> it can also
be
> a question about whether or not there was foreknowledge of the event,
> and that foreknowledge is being covered up. To dismiss this concern
> out of hand as the rantings of conspiracy nuts is premature. And there
> is a history of this kind of thing being done by national political
> bosses, including the darling of liberals, Franklin Roosevelt. The
> evidence is very compelling that the Roosevelt Administration
> deliberately failed to act to stop Pearl
> Harbor in order to mobilize enough national anger to enter the World War
II.
>
> I have no idea why people aren't asking some very specific questions
> about the actions of Bush and company on the day of the attacks.
>
> Follow along:
>
> Four planes get hijacked and deviate from their flight plans, all the
while
> on FAA radar. The planes are all hijacked between 7:45 and 8:10 AM
> Eastern Daylight Time.
>
> Who is notified?
>
> This is an event already that is unprecedented. But the President is
> not notified and going to a Florida elementary school to hear children
> read.
>
> By around 8:15 AM, it should be very apparent that something is
> terribly wrong. The President is glad-handing teachers.
>
> By 8:45, when American Airlines Flight 11 crashes into the World Trade
> Center, Bush is settling in with children for his photo ops at Booker
> Elementary. Four planes have obviously been hijacked simultaneously,
> an event never before seen in history, and one has just dived into the
> worlds best know twin towers, and still no one notifies the nominal
> Commander in Chief.
>
> No one has apparently scrambled any Air Force interceptors either.
>
> At 9:03, United Flight 175 crashes into the remaining World Trade
> Center building. At 9:05, Andrew Card, the Presidential Chief of Staff
> whispers
to
> George W. Bush. Bush "briefly turns somber" according to reporters.
>
> Does he cancel the school visit and convene an emergency meeting? No.
>
> He resumes listening to second graders read about a little girl's pet
> fucking goat, and continues this banality even as American Airlines
> Flight
77
> conducts an unscheduled point turn over Ohio and heads in the
> direction of Washington DC.
>
> Has he instructed Chief of Staff Card to scramble the Air Force? No.
>
> An excruciating 25 minutes later, he finally deigns to give a public
> statement telling the United States what they already have figured
> out;
that
> there's been an attack by hijacked planes on the World Trade Center.
>
> There's a hijacked plane bee-lining to Washington, but has the Air
> Force been scrambled to defend anything yet? No.
>
> At 9:30, when he makes his announcement, American Flight 77 is still
> ten minutes from its target, the Pentagon.
>
> The Administration will later claim they had no way of knowing that
> the Pentagon might be a target, and that they thought Flight 77 was
> headed to the White House, but the fact is that the plane has already
> flown South
and
> past the White House no-fly zone, and is in fact tearing through the
> sky at over 400 nauts.
>
> At 9:35, this plane conducts another turn, 360 degrees over the
> Pentagon, all the while being tracked by radar, and the Pentagon is
> not evacuated, and there are still no fast-movers from the Air Force
> in the sky over Alexandria and DC.
>
> Now, the real kicker: A pilot they want us to believe was trained at a
> Florida puddle-jumper school for Piper Cubs and Cessnas, conducts a
> well-controlled downward spiral, descending the last 7,000 feet in
> two-and-a-half minutes, brings the plane in so low and flat that it
> clips
the
> electrical wires across the street from the Pentagon, and flies it
> with pinpoint accuracy into the side of this building at 460 nauts.
>
> When the theory about learning to fly this well at the puddle-jumper
school
> began to lose ground, it was added that they received further training
> on a flight simulator.
>
> This is like saying you prepared your teenager for her first drive on
> I-40 at rush hour by buying her a video driving game. It's horse shit!
>
> There is a story being constructed about these events. My crystal ball
> is not working today, so I can't say why.
>
> But at the least, this so-called Commander-in-Chief and his staff that
> we are all supposed to follow blindly into some ill-defined war on
> terrorism
is
> criminally negligent or unspeakably stupid. And at the worst, if more
> is known or was known, and there is an effort to conceal the facts,
> there is
a
> criminal conspiracy going on.
>
> Certainly, the Bush de facto administration was facing a confluence of
> crises from which they were temporarily rescued by this event. Whether
they
> played a sinister role or not, there is little doubt that they have at
> the very least opportunistically pounced on this attack to overcome
> their lack
of
> legitimacy, to shift the blame for the encroaching recession from
> capitalism to the September 11th terror attack, to legitimize their
> pre-existing foreign policy agenda, and to establish and consolidate
> repressive
measures
> domestically and silence dissent. In many ways, September 11th pulled
> the Bush cookies out of the fire.
>
> And given them the green light to begin constructing a long-term
> scenario within which to establish fascistic control measures at home
> and abroad as a citadel for the ruling class in the catastrophic
> conjuncture that we are entering based on the end of oil.
>
> This elephant in the living room is being studiously ignored. In fact,
> the domestic repression has already begun, officially and
> unofficially. It's
kind
> of a latter day McCarthyism. I participated in a teach-in at Chapel
> Hill, North Carolina, on the 17th of September, and though not a
> single person
on
> the panel excused or justified the attacks, and every person there
> offered either condolences and prayers for the victims, we were
> excoriated within two days as "enemies of America." Yesterday an op-ed
> called for my deportation (to where, one can only guess). Now Herr
> Ashcroft is fast
tracking
> the biggest abrogation of US civil liberties since the so-called
> anti-terrorism legislation after the Oklahoma City bombing - which by
> the way hasn't resulted in anti-terrorism but in the acceleration of
> the application of the racist death penalty. The FBI has defined
> terrorist groups not by
whether
> any given group has ever acted as terrorists, but by their beliefs.
> Some socialists and anti-globalization groups have already been
> identified by name as terrorist groups, even though there is not a
> single shred of evidence that they have ever participated in any
> criminal activity. It reminds me of the Smith Act that was finally
> declared unconstitutional, but only
after
> a hell of a lot of people served a hell of a long time in jail for the
crime of
> thinking.
>
> I think this also points to yet another huge problems that the Bush
> regime was facing. Worldwide resistance to the whole so-called
> neoliberal agenda, which is a prettied up term for debt-leverage
> imperialism. While debt and the threat of sanctions has been used to
> coerce nations in the periphery, we have to understand that the final
> guarantor of compliance remains military action. For a global economic
> agenda, there is always a corresponding political and military agenda.
>
> The focal point of these actions in the short term is Southern Asia,
> but they have already scripted this as a worldwide and protracted
> fight
against
> terrorism.
>
> It's far better than drug wars as a rationalization, and the drug war
thing
> was being discredited in any case. Leftists are regaining power and
> popularity in Venezuela, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Ecuador, Colombia,
> the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Brazil, and Argentina. Cuba has gained
> immense prestige over the last few years. The empire is beginning to
> unravel. We can hardly justify intervention in these places by saying
> they
are
> not towing the economic line by allowing the absolute domination of
> their societies by transnational corporations. That exposes the
> agenda. So we simply claim they are supporting terrorism.
>
> It's for all these reasons I say the left has missed the boat on this
> one, by allowing them to get away with rushing past the question of
> who did
what
> on September 11th. If the official story is a lie, and I think the
> circumstantial case is strong enough to stay with this question, then
> we really do need to know what happened. And we need to understand
> concretely what the motives of this administration are.
>
> And we need to understand more than just their immediate motives, but
where
> the larger social forces that underwrite our situation right now are
> headed. I do not think this administration is engaged in the
> deliberative process of a political grouping that is on top of their
> game. They are
putting
> together some very deliberative technical solutions in response to a
larger
> situation that it slipping rapidly out of their control. Like clear
cutting.
> There's a very smart technology being employed to do a very dumb
> thing.
>
> What they are responding to is not September 11th, but the beginning
> of a permanent and precipitous decline in worldwide oil production,
> the beginning of a deep and protracted worldwide recession, and the
> unraveling of the empire.
>
> This brings me to a point about what all this means for Americans'
> security, which they are perfectly justified to worry about. The
> actions
being
> prepared by this administration will not only not enhance our
> security, it will significantly degrade it. Military action against
> many groups across
the
> globe, which is what the administration is telling us quite openly
> they
are
> planning to do, will put a lot of backs against the wall. That can't
> be
very
> secure.
>
> The concept of war being touted here is a violation of the principles
> of war on several counts, and will inevitably lead to military
> catastrophes,
if
> you're inclined to view this from a position of moral and political
neutrality.
>
> And the people who are now in possession of half the world's remaining
> oil reserves are subject to destabilization for which we can't even
> pretend to predict the consequences-but loss of access to critical
> energy supplies is certainly within the realm of possibility. Worst of
> all, we will be destabilizing Pakistan, a nuclear power in an active
> conflict with its neighbor, and we will be provoking Russia, another
> nuclear power. The
security
> stakes don't get any higher, and Americans can ill afford to ignore
> nukes.
>
> And I think that this domestic agenda is a tremendous threat to the
> security of anyone who is critical of the government or their
> corporate financiers, and we already know that the real threats are
> against populations that can easily be scapegoated as the domestic
> crisis deepens.
>
> There is a very real threat right now of creeping fascism in this
> country, and that phenomenon requires its domestic enemies.
> Historically those enemies have included leftists, trade unionists,
> and racially and nationally oppressed sectors. This whole "state of
> emergency" mentality is already being used to quiet the public
> discourses of anti-racism, of feminism, of environmentalism, and of
> both socialism and anarchism. And
while
> there is token resistance by officials to anti-Muslim xenophobia, the
> stereotypical images have saturated the media, and the government is
already
> beginning to openly re-instate racial profiling. It is only a short
> step from there to go after other groups. We have long been prepared
> by the ideologies of overt and covert racism, and racism as both
> institution and corresponding psychology in the United States is
> nearly intractable.
>
> It's for all these reasons that I say emphatically that we can not
> accept anything from this administration; not their policies nor their
> bullshit stories. What they are doing is very, very dangerous, and the
> time to fight back against them, openly, is right now, before they can
> consolidate their
power
> and their agenda. Once they have done that, our job becomes much more
> difficult.
>
> The left, if it has the capacity to self-organize out of its oblivion,
> needs to understand its critical roles here. We have to play the role
> of credible, hard-working, and non-sectarian partners in a broader
> peace-movement. We have to study, synthesize, and describe our current
> historical conjuncture. And we have to prepare leadership for the
> decisive conflict that will emerge to first defeat fascism then take
> political power.
>
> Rosa Luxemburg's words are truer than ever right now. We are not faced
with
> a choice between socialism and capitalism, but socialism or barbarism.
>
> And what we can least afford are denial and timidity.
>

> ***************
> "Who are we calling terrorists here? Outsiders can destroy airplanes
> and buildings, but it is only we, the people, who have the power to
> demolish our own ideals."
>
> --Barbara Kingsolver
> ****************
 
All I can say is 'thanks' for not adding any of your own thoughts to that post...

Most of it is only based on emotion, anyway, though.

President Bush, "a man of limited intelligence..." Yeah...sure.

Ya' damn feminazi :mad:
 
Didn't read the entire post but I saw where it was headed. Its like I've been saying for years now, the USA is a huge fucking business. Therefore, W is the best CEO available and he's the man. My only prob with this is that it should be run like a biz and we all should get dividend checks and not have taxes. Now THAT wouod be the coolest deal. Go Like Hell Baby.
 
I guess even a man who has had some actual experience on the front lines of issues were talking about is some how un credible--when he says something that strays away from official doctrine?
 
Sheep ain't bad. They never question nothin' either. If they're bleatin', it just means they're enjoyin' it an' all. Sheep fuckin' tip #2 - don' shear 'em up near the haunches. Makes fer great handles.
 
DamnRedneck said:
Sheep ain't bad. They never question nothin' either. If they're bleatin', it just means they're enjoyin' it an' all. Sheep fuckin' tip #2 - don' shear 'em up near the haunches. Makes fer great handles.

who are you?
 
OMEGA said:
I guess even a man who has had some actual experience on the front lines of issues were talking about is some how un credible--when he says something that strays away from official doctrine?

whats funny is you think this guy is just retired sitting at home and decided to write an essay. i believe he has an agenda. i think you've used the word sheep more than anyone on here and yet you seem to blindly follow readings like this one.
 
Thank you kindly folks. Name's Jimmy, from Calhoun county Arkansas. Hope that's what the spongefeller wanted to know.

I reckon Bocephus has to be a good feller on account of his name. An' that Omega's a rascal, but I think deep down he's good folk. I would send out some karma to you fellers but I heard that it won't do nuthin' until I sez a hundred or so things. Plus I don't think the good Lord would want me to be doin' that an' all. Have a good night fellers!
 
spongebob said:


yet you seem to blindly follow readings like this one.

nope. I follow no one.

I am conflicted over my own benefits from capitalism and the fact that people die for it.

My bills get paid from my hard work in for-profit business.

Someone from this board e-mailed this to me, and I just wanted to read the reactions.

Like I said, I work with guys just like you...they are not as extreme, but I need to understand all people for my own personal success.

It pays to look at all points of view, and the only way to elicit them from you guys is to piss you off.

So what if I have a gray box. I got what I wanted.

When I meet people like you in my day to day, I'll become what is necessary for them to feel comfortable with me.

Depending on what they tell me, I'll know where some of them are coming from because I have read dialog on boards like this one.

You see...most people I work with are at my level...the folks above me are probably a lot more ruthless and see things a bit differently than my friends, family, and colleagues.

Thank you for responding to my threads, and helping me understand other perspectives.
 
I'm sorry, but that was the most asinine treatise I've ever read, based on half assed conspiracy theories, complete denial of basic history, and a huge amount of pathetic circumstantial evidence. I mean, the point about interceptors not being scrambled.... wha-? And Bush not canceling the school meeting? Did the author even KNOW what went on that day? Sounds like he has his facts completely mixed up. And his analysis of Bin Laden/the motivation for attacking Afghanistan... wow.

The only thing worse than this (that I've seen lately) are the numbers game people play with "11".

I feel dumber having read that crap.
 
Belial said:
I'm sorry, but that was the most asinine treatise I've ever read, based on half assed conspiracy theories, complete denial of basic history, and a huge amount of pathetic circumstantial evidence. I mean, the point about interceptors not being scrambled.... wha-? And Bush not canceling the school meeting? Did the author even KNOW what went on that day? Sounds like he has his facts completely mixed up. And his analysis of Bin Laden/the motivation for attacking Afghanistan... wow.

The only thing worse than this (that I've seen lately) are the numbers game people play with "11".

I feel dumber having read that crap.

lol..Agreed, some of these conspiracy theories are just taking the piss!
 
Belial said:
I'm sorry, but that was the most asinine treatise I've ever read, based on half assed conspiracy theories, complete denial of basic history, and a huge amount of pathetic circumstantial evidence. I mean, the point about interceptors not being scrambled.... wha-? And Bush not canceling the school meeting? Did the author even KNOW what went on that day? Sounds like he has his facts completely mixed up. And his analysis of Bin Laden/the motivation for attacking Afghanistan... wow.

The only thing worse than this (that I've seen lately) are the numbers game people play with "11".

I feel dumber having read that crap.

Hell Ya!!! Thank for writing exactly what I would have written saved me the time.
 
whoever just gave me bad karma...

hahaha!

The last laugh is on you.

Like I've said over and over...

...you guys are so emotional about this war and warmongering that you are as bad as the supposed religious zealots that support the war.

Your emotions are being manipulated for money. So

YOU ARE THE IDIOTS.

And by the way...understanding you idiots that run corporations and and this country is why I am using a $3000 laptop to write this, have a programming job (even in an economy where there are thousands upon thousands of laid off software developers and engineers), and can live in one of the best neighborhoods in my city.

I UNDERSTAND YOU, majority boy.

And my life will only get better as I understand the idiocy that makes a capitalistic system run.

hahahahahahahahhahhahah!

:D :D :D :D :D
 
strongchick said:
whoever just gave me bad karma...

hahaha!

The last laugh is on you.

Like I've said over and over...

...you guys are so emotional about this war and warmongering that you are as bad as the supposed religious zealots that support the war.

Your emotions are being manipulated for money. So

YOU ARE THE IDIOTS.

And by the way...understanding you idiots that run corporations and and this country is why I am using a $3000 laptop to write this, have a programming job (even in an economy where there are thousands upon thousands of laid off software developers and engineers), and can live in one of the best neighborhoods in my city.

I UNDERSTAND YOU, majority boy.

And my life will only get better as I understand the idiocy that makes a capitalistic system run.

hahahahahahahahhahhahah!

:D :D :D :D :D

nah nah nah nah nah..Im better than you so there! - You just sounded like this, an annoying little kid.

If your gonna post then explain what your ranting on about.
 
nevertoobig said:


nah nah nah nah nah..Im better than you so there! - You just sounded like this, an annoying little kid.

If your gonna post then explain what your ranting on about.

I get bad karma quite a bit because my posts "seem" anti-establishment. I am merely explaining why I post the threads and comments that I do, and prefer discussion to

...cowardly negative karma notes. And that IS cowardly.

I get tired of hearing the negativity, and just want to discuss the issues, but obviously, this is not the forum.
 
My feeling on the article I posted is that we have actual military men who feel that this war is based on propaganda, and not reality.

I've been arguing this point for awhile, therefore I felt no need to explain my position.

I didn't bother with additional information either, because 99% of the posts reduce to woman-hating expletives rather than commentary.

The above letter is a real person posting real feelings who has real military experience. Whether he has his facts straight or not is all conjecture, since none of us knows what is really going on...

I agree with him that blind trust in our government is unwarranted.

If you remove the emotion and stick to common sense, the so-called 'conspiracy' is much less conspiratorial than just the plain reality of a capitalist nation TAKING yet again.

I don't want to live in a country that has values so different from our leadership that we have to be manipulated into a war.

This war has awakened me to the fact that my values are far removed from our country's current leadership.

What I used to believe about America is not true.

And I want all the hypocrites of the world who screen themselves from this reality to wake up so we can make the changes necessary.

I am trying out my views here to see whether I am plain wrong or crazy.

I realize that I am not crazy, not plain wrong...the truth is out there, somewhere.
 
I just gave you some good Karma to offset the bad. I don't agree with you but I don't believe in giving someone bad Karma just cause you disagree with their point of view.
 
strongchick said:


nope. I follow no one.

Like I said, I work with guys just like you...they are not as extreme, but I need to understand all people for my own personal success.

It pays to look at all points of view, and the only way to elicit them from you guys is to piss you off.

So what if I have a gray box. I got what I wanted.

When I meet people like you in my day to day, I'll become what is necessary for them to feel comfortable with me.

Thank you for responding to my threads, and helping me understand other perspectives.

1. the impression you give is that you do follow the articles you post. why else would you argue for them.

2. extreme, me? find one post where i have expressed an extremist view. i am more down the middle than you realize. most of my post towards topics like this one is just to question your understanding of the topic and find out where you stand. i try to do it in a subtle way.

3. dont worry i never get pissed off on here. the response you get from me is not one out of anger.

4. i would never give bad karma out, simply because i believe in karma, get it.

5. i highly doubt you meet people like me in your day to day routine, simply because you would not have to play a part just to be accepted.

6. your welcome, but refer back to #2.
 
strongchick said:


nope. I follow no one.



When I meet people like you in my day to day, I'll become what is necessary for them to feel comfortable with me.


you follow no one but when you meet someone with different views as yours, you will become what is necessary for them to feel comfortable? that seems like a contradiction. youre the biggest dumbest hypocrite i have ever seen.

people give you bad karma because you think it is ok for terrorists to kill some 5000 innocent people. thats not called a point of view, its called insanity.
 
And my life will only get better as I understand the idiocy that makes a capitalistic system run. (quoted from strongchick)

so you will fleece america like the rest of the liberals while the working class shmuck like me works the arse off just to get by. ok, i don't have a degree in computers, my degree will be in nursing when it's all said and done. so you see i will never have a cushy desk/pc job or one where i can take advantage of the system and fleece it and the hrad working tax payers out of their rightfull benefits. it's people who think like you that drive this country deeper in debt and make it harder on people of lower income and small business. again let me just ask you, so you will fleece america like the rest of the liberals while people who work hard just to get by get nothing in return? thank you and i hope my taxes pay for you mental hospital confinement when you realize that the next revolution is heading your way. peace!
 
It amazes me that people call a man who went to Harvard and Yale "a man of limited intelligence"
 
strongchick said:



And I want all the hypocrites of the world who screen themselves from this reality to wake up so we can make the changes necessary.

I am trying out my views here to see whether I am plain wrong or crazy.

I realize that I am not crazy, not plain wrong...the truth is out there, somewhere.

1.you continually prove yourself a hypocrite on here everyday, maybe you should start with waking yourself up.

2. so what changes to you propose? from what i see, you want all minorities to rule the earth while the people with different views from your own suffer.

3. you are wrong and crazy. the truth is out there, but not in the direction youre going.
 
This clown writes as though the U.S. is the cause of the worlds problems. If I were a government operative I would put him under investigation ASAP. He sounds pretty disgruntled IMO. If he holds a security clearance that's grounds enough for revocation.

I think this guys needs to take a couple of steps back to take in the BIG picture.

Sure our government does shady shit, what government dosn't? Even Vatican City has their own intelligence service.
 
nenofury said:
It amazes me that people call a man who went to Harvard and Yale "a man of limited intelligence"

Everyone, of course, who donates millions to universities or is the son of a rich oil man passes the same tests and qualifications as the rest of the population.

<sarcasm intended>
 
rushx79 said:


you follow no one but when you meet someone with different views as yours, you will become what is necessary for them to feel comfortable? that seems like a contradiction. youre the biggest dumbest hypocrite i have ever seen.

people give you bad karma because you think it is ok for terrorists to kill some 5000 innocent people. thats not called a point of view, its called insanity.

Why do you think people of color are so pissed all the time? Every single one of us is an idiot, right?

We all play a part to be accepted by the establishment, of course. But I can't just take out my nose ring and suddenly look like the majority.

I have said several times that it is wrong to kill. I do, however, understand the anger.

By the way...how do you propose the millions of people of color here better themselves? Speak the King's English, do not dress in Fubu, and know business vernacular, right? That is what is called doing what it takes so others feel comforrtable around you.
 
Last edited:
Sushi X said:
And my life will only get better as I understand the idiocy that makes a capitalistic system run. (quoted from strongchick)

so you will fleece america like the rest of the liberals while the working class shmuck like me works the arse off just to get by. ok, i don't have a degree in computers, my degree will be in nursing when it's all said and done. so you see i will never have a cushy desk/pc job or one where i can take advantage of the system and fleece it and the hrad working tax payers out of their rightfull benefits. it's people who think like you that drive this country deeper in debt and make it harder on people of lower income and small business. again let me just ask you, so you will fleece america like the rest of the liberals while people who work hard just to get by get nothing in return? thank you and i hope my taxes pay for you mental hospital confinement when you realize that the next revolution is heading your way. peace!

In a capitalistic society, those who control the banks win.

I work for a for-profit company. I hardly think I'm 'fleecing' America.
 
strongchick said:

By the way...how do you propose the millions of people of color here better themselves? Speak the King's English, do not dress in Fubu, and know business vernacular, right? That is what is called doing what it takes so others feel comforrtable around you.

No, this is called "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." And it shows respect and politeness. When you step into someone's house you follow their rules, whether it's your neighbours or you're in Japan. I agree to work for someone, therefore I agree to conduct myself in a certain manner, dress, punctuality etc in areas which relate to the job while I'm on the job. This is the beauty of capitalism. When I want my own rules, I'll make my own house.

BTW "people of color" must automatically like Fubu (for example), or speak differently? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: why is that?? ain't no thing baby, just skin. It doesn't run my brain.

Sorry for the (relatively) long post, I know most of y'all eyes have glazed over by now
 
You post some writing that is qualified only by the writer stating he was in the military and taught some military classes which he uses to justify his expertise on the subject to which he writes.

You state that you want to discuss all opinions cause you are confused and that you want to try out your beliefs to see the reactions they get. That is called hop scotching.

You have no real beliefs, you continually post and argue for the liberal, communist, conspiritorial side.

Don't bring this people of color crap into this, that is the very reason we have a problem in this country people still see color.

As for speaking one language yes, last time I checked, ebonics made most people sound retarded.

Get over this color crap we are Americans plain and simple, nothing more and nothing less.

This guy is an idiot, the tapes of the flight controllers new exactly what was going on. F16's were scrambled, but given the time to take off and time of flight even at supersonic speeds they could just not get there in time.

Again, by subscribing to the authors writings to wit you are, that tells us that you and the author and others perhaps believe that our gov't orchestrated, conducted and committed mass murder of its own citizens for a barrel of oil.

That is the most ludicrous idea ever.

You need to stop trying out your beliefs for a response and form your own beliefs and then stick by them.

Stop using the color card to support you and your anger and bitterness over what I do not know.

If you want to discuss all sides, the best way is to post credible information from both sides and moderate the post to keep it on track by remaining unbiased and in the middle. This way you can truly examine the beliefs of all.

You unfortunately no matter what you say have already made up your mind that our gov't conspired to kill its citizens for a pipeline in afghanistan because bush is the president and is in the oil business. How convenient.

It sounds more plausible that you are upset that he won the presidency and you voted for gore and are still pissed off about that as though it was an personal attack against you and your people of color.

You want to discuss a point, no problem, you want to argue, no problem, just tell us which and we will respond accordingly.
 
Island Son said:


No, this is called "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." And it shows respect and politeness. When you step into someone's house you follow their rules, whether it's your neighbours or you're in Japan. I agree to work for someone, therefore I agree to conduct myself in a certain manner, dress, punctuality etc in areas which relate to the job while I'm on the job. This is the beauty of capitalism. When I want my own rules, I'll make my own house.

BTW "people of color" must automatically like Fubu (for example), or speak differently? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: why is that?? ain't no thing baby, just skin. It doesn't run my brain.

Sorry for the (relatively) long post, I know most of y'all eyes have glazed over by now


That sounds good. I understand the logic...for survival. My example was just that...we are saying the same thing.

Food for thought....Blacks didn't come here on their own. We were dragged here. So many of us don't have this unquestioning gratefulness. Not saying Blacks are right...just saying this is the deal...the way it is.
 
No, YOU weren't dragged here. Just as I wasn't brought here. You were born here (as far as I know), as was I. That makes us both Americans. I can't do shit about slavery, it wasn't my fault. And when you look at the condition that parts of Africa and Europe are in, I am glad that I was born here, even though we have our share of problems, too.
 
Yeah, who dragged your ass here? You were born here more than likely unless you immigrated, to which again you weren't dragged here. And unless your about 200-300 years old or older you definitely weren't dragged here.

Don't like it, move to africa, give up your US citizenship and become an african. I am sure they would love to have you.
 
The best neighborhood in your city?? Last time I checked Camden was one of the worst cities in the country. The whole area is a piece of shit..:fro:
 
So is cherry hill, it has gone downhill since I was born there in 65
 
strongchick said:


Food for thought....Blacks didn't come here on their own. We were dragged here. So many of us don't have this unquestioning gratefulness. Not saying Blacks are right...just saying this is the deal...the way it is.

but that was 300 years ago. and blacks weren't the only ones who had to deal with racism. all non white, non protestant non americans faced it.

and there isn't a race alive that didn't exist in slavery at one time or another. whites had to live under feudalism (which is a chivalry era version of slavery) for hundreds to thousands of years.

and, i think america used to be an english penal colony (just like australia. all england's criminals were sent here) so the founders were here against their will too. :P
 
strongchick said:
Food for thought....Blacks didn't come here on their own. We were dragged here. So many of us don't have this unquestioning gratefulness. Not saying Blacks are right...just saying this is the deal...the way it is.
Anywhere in that preschool you call a college did they teach you that the blacks who were "dragged" here were prisoners of war who would otherwise have been summarily executed? Additionally, if "you" hadn't been brought here, would NEGROES have any rights in any countries?

For all you "education", you are IGNORANT, and as Chesty and so many others have so eloquently pointed out, use your color to hide behind whenever someone calls into question the validity of your half-socialist, half-communist posts.

Just as your ethnicity, which you are so proud to shove in everyone's face like your sexual orientation, everything about you is "half". Half-brained, half-educated, half-assed. Go try your half-thought-out ideas on half-wits elsewhere, you half.....
 
thebabydoc said:

Anywhere in that preschool you call a college did they teach you that the blacks who were "dragged" here were prisoners of war who would otherwise have been summarily executed? Additionally, if "you" hadn't been brought here, would NEGROES have any rights in any countries?

For all you "education", you are IGNORANT, and as Chesty and so many others have so eloquently pointed out, use your color to hide behind whenever someone calls into question the validity of your half-socialist, half-communist posts.

Just as your ethnicity, which you are so proud to shove in everyone's face like your sexual orientation, everything about you is "half". Half-brained, half-educated, half-assed. Go try your half-thought-out ideas on half-wits elsewhere, you half.....

And you're not? Where did that info about prisoners of war come from? post a link.
 
thebabydoc said:

Anywhere in that preschool you call a college did they teach you that the blacks who were "dragged" here were prisoners of war who would otherwise have been summarily executed? Additionally, if "you" hadn't been brought here, would NEGROES have any rights in any countries?


OK, morbid curiosity's got me. Explain this.
 
nordstrom said:


but that was 300 years ago. and blacks weren't the only ones who had to deal with racism. all non white, non protestant non americans faced it.

and there isn't a race alive that didn't exist in slavery at one time or another. whites had to live under feudalism (which is a chivalry era version of slavery) for hundreds to thousands of years.

and, i think america used to be an english penal colony (just like australia. all england's criminals were sent here) so the founders were here against their will too. :P


Agreed. All races in history have had some kind of tragedy at the hand of another race.

I never said the conditions I speak of are unique to Blacks in history.

It is hard to discuss this here because rather than the original point, I have to defend words I haven't even said.

I'm over it.
 
That's kinda like how whites have to pay for actions they didn't take. I didn't enslave anyone, especially not you. So don't pin that shit on me.
 
spentagn said:
That's kinda like how whites have to pay for actions they didn't take. I didn't enslave anyone, especially not you. So don't pin that shit on me.

Give one example of 'paying' for actions you did not do?
 
nikolai_bolkov said:


Give one example of 'paying' for actions you did not do?

Well, I had to go to time out once when my sister broke the living room window. Other than that, lots of people say the government should pay reparations for slavery. I didn't partake in that, so don't pin it on me.
 
gymnpoppa said:


And you're not? Where did that info about prisoners of war come from? post a link.
There were wars between tribes. Captured prisoners were sold to slave traders. The slave trade may have added fuel to the fire, but these intertribal wars existed long before the traders.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/9chapter6.shtml

WHO AND HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE ENSLAVED?

People often became slaves for reasons rooted in local disputes, and
wars; or they became slaves as a demonstration of wealth and power
on the part of a local ruler. However, enslavement at a local level
could often lead to a chain reaction of sales from merchant to
merchant ending up at the coast where the final sale resulted in being
dispatched across the Ocean.

WAR

A large number of people began the journey into slavery as prisoners
of war. The Baganda in East Africa, for example, often went to war with
their neighbours and took Bunyoro and Basoga people as slaves.
With the rise of a large commercial slave trade, driven by European
needs, enslaving your enemy became less a consequence of war and
more and more a reason to go to war. This was particularly so in West
Africa where, for example, the conflict between the kingdoms of Oyo
and Dahomey resulted in prisoners of war being taken as slaves on
both sides and then sold on to the coast.

PUNISHMENT
Some people were taken into slavery as a punishment. The crime
might be witchcraft, theft, or adultery.

Also see...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1narr4_txt.html

....European traders such as Nicolas Owen waited at these forts for slaves; African traders transported slaves from the interior of Africa. Equiano and others found themselves sold and traded more than once, often in slave markets. African merchants, the poor, royalty -- anyone -- could be abducted in the raids and wars that were undertaken by Africans to secure slaves that they could trade. The slave trade
devastated African life. Culture and traditions were torn asunder, as families, especially young men, were abducted. Guns were introduced and slave raids and even wars increased.

Like all traders at the time, Owen did not capture slaves himself; rather, it was Africans who acquired slaves and traded the captives for various European goods. Sometimes the captives would be prisoners of war. Other times, groups would venture deep into Africa's interior for the sole purpose of capturing slaves.

and...

http://www.blacknet.co.uk/history/Slavery.html

Africans were captured as slaves by other
Africans in the following ways: prisoners of
war, slave raids, condemned criminals,
condemned debtors, persons accused of
witchcraft, kidnapped. In any one region and
time slaves were created by a mixture of these
methods, but one or two tended to
predominate at any time and place. In the
Senegambia, Guinea Coast, and Slave Coasts of West Africa,
war tended to predominate as the most important source of
slaves. In places like Angola enslavement by kidnapping and
condemnation for debts was quite important. Slaves were
almost always captured in situations of conflict. Sometimes,
if a family member learned of the capture of one of its
members, it could bargain with the person who had enslaved
him or her to redeem (purchase) the slave back Sometimes
families traded a slave they themselves owned for a member
of their family. This practice, which occurred in many places
in Africa, was symbolic of the great tragedy of the slave
trade. In order to save members of their own families, many
persons engaged in capturing others.

Thanks for your interest.
 
So, enslavement was prevalent in Africa, and you say slave traders might have added fuel to the fire? What you're implying is that because tribes enslaved people for crimes before slave traders came there, it's justified (slave trading), and what about those who weren't enslaved in Africa, but captured by slave traders. I see no mention of this in your links. And I'm aware that did happen.
 
Originally posted by gymsuckacocka
So, enslavement was prevalent in Africa, and you say slave traders might have added fuel to the fire? What you're implying is that because tribes enslaved people for crimes before slave traders came there, it's justified (slave trading), and what about those who weren't enslaved in Africa, but captured by slave traders. I see no mention of this in your links. And I'm aware that did happen.
You know what gympoppa? You're rapidly becoming as tiresome as strongchick.

You asked for references, I gave them to you. If you'd like me to give you homework and a reading list I could do that too, but apparently strongchick paid $20,000 a year for that and it got her nowhere. My suspicion is that it would do the same for you.

Yes, there were some captured by slave traders, but the articles will confirm that THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY were not. The slave traders simply did not have the means to go in and "capture" and enslave Africans. They traded for slaves. Hence the name SLAVE TRADERS

The short excerpts I posted merely substantiate that which I STATED, not "implied": that many if not most slaves sent over here were prisoners of war, captured during inter-tribal wars. To say they were "dragged" here, etc, etc... is a pile of shit because
a) as prisoners of war they would otherwise have been killed or eaten, or
b) they would have been enslaved in Africa, under far worse conditions.

What you INFERRED from my statements regarding previous enslavement, justification therof, etc.. is entirely up to you. No one ever said that slavery was right. The Jews were the original slaves 5000 years ago, all we asked for in 'reparations' was the land promised to us by G-d himself!

Since you and strongchick seem to read only the blank spaces between the lines and insert whatever text you'd like, further waste of my valuable time explaining readily available FACTS is of little if no use other than for the amusement of my fellow ECHWAM members.
 
strongchick said:
Food for thought....Blacks didn't come here on their own. We were dragged here. So many of us don't have this unquestioning gratefulness

But many did choose to go there. Many still do. Today there are lineups in african, asian, and european countries to go to the US, educated people to be short-order cooks, cleaners, cab drivers, so their children have a better chance. You think as part of a minority you're on the side of the truly oppressed people of the world, and therefore they are on yours. NEWSFLASH: from the point of view of the untouchables in New Delhi streets all Americans are the same, living the dream life.

Ask questions, and then be grateful as you should. The systems of life and politics there ALWAYS DO need your work and vigilance and voice to make them better, but they aren't as broken as you imagine. Not having unicorns doesn't make the world rotten, admire the horses instead.

strongchick it must be tough defending yourself on so many threads..... ask George to start your own forum so I know where to find em all cause i'm a newbie and a lazy sob :D
 
Good comments Island Son. And the suggestion about giving strongchick her own board, well, BAAAAAD idea as we're trying to get it to soak through her head...that large, empty cavity between her ears...that her posts do nothing but piss people off.

"Baaa, baaa, baaa. I'm a sheep & do nothing but follow." :rolleyes:

Puh-lease! Most of the people that disagree with 110% of the b.s. you spout are extremely intelligent INDIVIDUALS who all think for themselves.

You just get all bitchy because time & time again, on each & every thread you post, you are ripped a new one and continually prove yourself to be moronic.

Do not put ANY sort of racial tones into this as I am explicitly saying this has NOTHING to do with race, but serves as an excellent observation: YOU have made yourself the black sheep of the boards. You have no one to blame but yourself.
 
Top Bottom