KO, I'm telling ya man, the results from using a generic var at 20 mg's doesn't even outweigh shuttting down your own test production! ox is great run over long periods, but 20mg's of the DK is plenty enough to start to inhibit your HTPA, and MABY just barely enough to see ANYTHING in terms of strength/gains - if your going to do it, run it high enough to really get it's benifits!