nor-4-androstenediol

[strongchick]

I'm reading a book called "Super T" by a UCLA physician (1999) that says nor-4-androstenediol in low dosages is okay for bodybuilding females (increase muscle, decrease fat).

I'm thinking about buying some Prolab 19-Nor-4-Diol to see if it will work for me. The dosage for this particular product is right where the book recommends.

Have any women out there tried this?

Side effects?

I'm reaching a plateau and I need a kick. I don't really want to be bigger...just harder. I've been on a strict diet for almost seven months, and using Adipokinetix.

I've lost a lot of fat, but the last of it is very stubborn (lower body), and my upper body, while it increased in size, the more I tighten my diet, the more my upper body shrinks (or maybe I am in the "irrational fear of shrinking my hard labor" mode).

any suggestions appreciated.

 

[BigEasy]

My wife used it for awhile, but all she got was coarser body hair and a hoarsness that went away on the recommended dosages for women. At that time they recommended 50% of what men took all three times per day! That was waaaay too much! Now it's 25% only 1x or 2x per day. She never got past 25% one time a day!

The orals come on really fast and peak, then RAPIDLY drop to nothing. In our experience, it didn't stay in the blood stream long enough for anabolic effects. If you REALLY feel you must, use a topical product. Then start out with the 25% of the recommended dose for two weeks. If on the third week you don't see any effects, go up to 50% for weeks 3&4. Same for weeks 5&6, but I doubt you will make it that far.

Watch for throad/voice problems, skin problems, slight but persistant bloating like PMS, irriability, general lack of energy, increased libido in the middle of cycle, breakthrough bleeding, and maybe a mild fever. All of these can be signs of side effects. If you see any of these, BACK OFF before its too late and you have some sides you won't like.

Personally, you would be better to invest in protein and a set of heavier dumbells. Of course there is always AAS, but I'll leave that to the other experts around here.

Good luck with your decision.

BE

 

[strongchick]

geez....with all the potential side effects you may as well do AS. I think I'm too chicken for either. I especially HATE bloating.

did anything good come of it, BigEasy?

 

[Dingo12]

I tried pro-hormones last year. All it did was increase my acne and deplete my bank account. Recently I started using AS and the effects are awesome but for the same price as the pro-hormones.

 

[BigEasy]

geez....with all the potential side effects you may as well do AS.

did anything good come of it, BigEasy?

Hmmm, yes! We learned from it. Seriously, we learned that if you want quality drug-like effects, you HAVE TO DO IT RIGHT! Short-cuts and half way 'kinda-sortas' don't work for her. So, when the time comes again, it'll be Anavar to start with, and primo/anavar second time around. But we are not in a hurry, we just want to do it right to maximize the effort. Good diet, good rest, good workouts, and good supplementation. Over and over and over and over. Thats all.

BE

 

[wyst]

curious

Hey BigE:

Just outta curiousity, what dosages are you talking about here, when you talk about 50% and 25% and so on?

I have a friend who is taking each morning 100 mg of 4-androstenedione and 100 mg of 4-androstenediol each morning (b4 morning workout) and 150 mg of 4-androstenediol and 150 mg of 4-androstenedione EOD. She's been on this routine for about a week to ten days, and so far she's seen no real benefits beyond a little boost during workouts and a slight increase in sensitivity in her...um...you know. Maybe a slight accompanying boost in libido and a touch more acne, but nothing in any one of these four cases that might not be in her head, I think (and she agrees).

I know, real gear is the way, but she's already bought the stuff and is determined to give it a try. Thoughts on this program, anybody?

Wyst

 

[BigEasy]

Wyst,
Sorry for the delay in answering, been out of town.
I don't remember what the dosage mgs were, but the recommended dose was 3 tabs X 3x per day for men and 2 tabs morning and evening meals, plus 1x optional at bedtime (I think) for women. They also recommended 2 more before workouts for unspecified gender, (I assumed this was for men) which we didn't do. As I said this was too much for her. The product was labeled as a dual strength cyclo-nor product. It was from SuperTech or Kaizen if I remember correctly. (For awhile, I tried almost every brand I could find. I thought my lack of significant gains were due to formulation problems, NOT marketing hype.)

ANyway, as i indicated I didn't have any experience with prohormones at the time. I trusted a friend that owns a supplement store to recommend a product. He said that the nors were 100% anabolic, 0% androgenic. NOT! At least NOT for women!

The new dosages mentioned were from a Pat Arnold article or newsgroup post. I remember thinking, no wonder she had problems... I figure he made most of this stuff and probably knew what he was talking about. He also recommended careful watching and caution. In hindsight, that sounds like good advise in my opinion.

We tried the new dosages with a topical spray. She did notice libido increases, but not to the point AAS have been described as producing. No significant muscle gains that were kept. Sorry.

BE

 

[cockdezl]

"I trusted a friend that owns a supplement store to recommend a product. He said that the nors were 100% anabolic, 0% androgenic. NOT! At least NOT for women!"

This is the problem with health food/supplement store workers....they often times only know what the product pamphlets tell them. Your friend is lucky that you are friends with him. In these sue happy days, he probably could have been sued.

ALL anabolic/androgenic steroids are androgenic. No one has been able to dissociate the androgenic quality from the anabolic quality. You have to remember that all AA steroids act through the androgen receptor, and impart some percentage androgenicity. Nortestosterones are weaker androgens than say testosterone and DHT, but still have an androgenic effect.

Use a topical nortest, next time.

 

[strongchick]

ANyway, as i indicated I didn't have any experience with prohormones at the time. I trusted a friend that owns a supplement store to recommend a product. He said that the nors were 100% anabolic, 0% androgenic. NOT! At least NOT for women!

The whole reason I thought about this route was because of the book, "Super T", written by a UCLA doctor.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...0735636/sr=1-3/ref=sc_b_3/002-5632478-6320813

The authors stated several times throughout the book that nor-4-adiol type prohormones are NOT androgenic. Obviously, this is not good info.

Man...that's why forums like these are great!

thanks, BigEasy.

 

[BigEasy]

Please remember, with women and AAS, it is just as the US EPA statement on new cars says: "Your mileage may vary." Probably a more correct statement would be that your mileage WILL vary!

Just because we had little positive gains, you could be the exception. If you are dead set on trying prohormones, DO use the Nors, and DO use the topicals.

The nors will TYPICALLY (not for everyone, k?) cause less androgenic effects than the standard prohormone. Also the topicals are easier to dose and provide more consistant blood concentrations without the high peaks and rapid falloff.

I cannot recommend the prohormones from our experience, but I'm sure that they will work for some. Of course the amounts taken and the durations may be much longer. It would seem that for equal amounts of money- to get results from prohormones, you can a take a cycle of Anavar, primo, or winny that WILL have great results.

Just our thoughts.


BE

 

[w8liftinglady]

I have tried several vriations of th "nors".For me,The gains were moderate,but noticeable.Because I train not only fo muscularity,but also for strength,I use that as gauge.There was a definite improvement in my lifts while "on".I was careful to cycle,and NEVER took more(or less) than the label recommended.That being said,I am probably going to try anavar/primo at the end of the summer,since I have hit a brick wall with both muscular and strength gains.Be careful not to exceed the dosag,since that is really when the side effects kick in.The only real side effct I saw was some pretty bad acne during the cycle,especially near "That" time of the month.

 

[wyst]

dosage

Yeah, it's hard ot know what the dosage should be. We were in the store together and my friend showed me caps of the same stuff by 2 different makers, both the same andro, and one said to take one 500 mg cap per day, and the other one said to take one 100 mg cap per day. So does that mean that it's really okay to take 5 100 caps per day? That's what she's doing.

Wyst

 

[strongchick]

Recommended dosages below:

The Super T book doctor is Karlis Ullis, MD, of UCLA's Sports Medicine and Anti-Aging Medical Group in Santa Monica (book published in 1999) http://www.agingPrevent.com

He feels he is qualified in the study of endocrinology. He calls prohormone "T-boosters".

Anyway... he recommends Nor-4-androstenediol (also known as nor-4-adiol) for women in dosages of 10-50mg 1-3 times daily.
He gives this stuff a muscle building rating of "A" and says the anablic effect is high while the androgenic effect is low. He specifically says:

"Most product developers of sports supplement companies are not trained in anabolic steroid biochemistry, nor is the person selling you the supplement in the store. Those seeking to take larger doses of T-boosters may get results similar to those of low doses of synthetic anabolic steroids, but they also increase the risk of side effects."

I cancelled my order of this stuff but I just got it in the mail anyway...figures. The pills are 100mg, so I'll have to open the capsules and take the powder out and split it up.

Wish me luck. I am extremely grateful for the chance to discuss this with you guys, and I will be sure to let you know the good the bad and the ugly in a couple of weeks.

P.S. I've decided to go ahead and give it a try (ProLab 19-Nor-4-androstenediol) after actually READING the book instead of skimming it, and, of course, listening to what you all have to say. Also, for extra motivation, I've been a little weaker since I cycled off creatine (geez, I've been peeing up a storm!)..so I'll do the low dosages and hope over time I get the benefits.

 

[strongchick]

4th day on. Personal best on hack squats (275) by a mile! Personal best on flat dumbbell presses (50 each), for sets! Okay...4 days on probably doesn't account for this, but perhaps the added placebo effect doesn't hurt. Now I'm fighting the mid-sized (tennis player sized) "boys" for dumbbells at the gym.

Done bragging. I'm still working on that last bit of fat, however. sigh.

 

[BigEasy]

Have you ever considered asking Pat Arnold, the prohormone re-discoverer, if there is such a word) what he thinks? He participates in google.com discussions all the time and is quite accomodating with sound advise.

I'll see if he is willing to come and join this thread if everyone wants?

BE

 

[strongchick]

I'll see if he is willing to come and join this thread if everyone wants?

BE

That would be great! I especially would want to tap his expertise on prohormones and their effects on women, good and bad.

 

[wyst]

Cool!

That would be amazing!

Also, where are these google discussions you're talking about?

Wyst

 

[BigEasy]

Okay, I'll try to get Pat's attention and ask him to come over here. I'm not a personal friend or anything, I'll just send him an email/usenet message and see what happens....

As far as the Google boards, it's really nothing more than the usenet or newsgroups. If you are not familiar with usenet, go to HERE.

Anyway, Google.com archives some of the newsgroups on USENET and provides a search engine to the whole thing. For instance here are some articles I found by searching the prohormone & women topics:


Usenet Article on Prohormones by Elzi Volk

What you get when you search on Women Pat Arnold Prohormone

Article so bad it's humorous. Pats Comments are in black I think..

Anyway, click on those and you will get the idea of just a tiny bit of 'stuff' available on USENET. Go to Groups.Google.com and search to your hearts content.

BE

 

[strongchick]

thanks for the links, BigEasy!

UPDATE:

I got my 5'8" 145lb butt all the way up on MY VERY FIRST ACTUAL CLOSE GRIP CHIN UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I looked in the mirror at my lats and now I know why!

I'm so excited I could just bust wide open. I've been trying to do chin-ups for ten years (off and on).

I'm up to 100mg of 19 nor adiol one hour before workouts. I like how it makes me feel and I don't have any side effects yet. Of course, I came into the world very hairy, so I wouldn't notice that! No scratchy throat, no skin eruptions.

I feel quite a bit harder. Of course, it could be the cumulative effect of 60 minutes of cardio post weight training 5 days a week.