No training while PCT = Keeping more gains!

[stevesmi]

keep training fellas. dont stop. just realize your strength is gonna begin to drop and your size is gonna SLOWLY go away. its a bitter pill to swallow but it WILL HAPPEN. you have gone beyond your genetic potential, and you will go back down. however you SHOULD after all is said and done have more strength and look better then when you started.

if not, then it wasn't a success.

 

[Discreet User]

agree. critical period for working out is day 1-16 of PCT. most HST programs has a good 2 week break to allow fibrine to break down. I time mine to PCT. On first 2 weeks on HST its feather weights n high reps. BRILLIANT FOR 10 WEEK CYCLES.!

I also timed my HST break at PCT.

HST is definitely the way to go for most people.

 

[jacshelb]

My "natural" weight is something like 175 lbs at 10% bf. Right now (4 weeks into pct) I weigh 229 lbs at 10.5% bf. At the peak of my bulking cycle I was 235 lbs and 12.5% bf. The reason I'm not losing much is because:

1) I am not starving myself. You are right on about that! But, I'm not over-eating by any great deal either. I know my body and what it takes to tip things in the balance of fat loss without sacrificing too much muscle.

2) I don't over-train to begin with. I follow my own little strength/size building routine, make progress, and get plenty of rest. I do usually only train 3 days per week, sometimes 4 and sometimes I take a week off if absolutely needed. My training is moderate-high intensity and low-moderate volume.

3) I keep using GH and gh secretogues post cycle- both in low-mod doses but effective. I also will use an anti-e post cycle like aromasin at 12.5 mg per day or less. And, I use a sarm at a low-moderate dose. I'm also not against igf-1 and so forth during pct/bridge. Why not take advantage of these products in sensible doses when not blasting the juice?

And, like someone else mentioned, I've gotten stronger well into my pct before. And, it's not only about when the esters clear, but more about what I'm eating, whether I'm on a sarm, and where I'm at in my strength gaining cycle. If I've got "room to grow" or get stronger even after the esters clear, then I will. I know my body. Steroids work, but they are just part of the equation.

I agree with the basic premise of the original post, but I feel everyone should really get to know their individual needs when it comes to this. I like to take time off as needed, and only as needed!

I've put on nearly 20 lbs of muscle/lbm in the last 2 years and that was after several years of bulking/cycling steroids etc. At that point I had something click for me and I knew that I wasn't "putting it all together" correctly up to that point- mainly I had only netted 12 lbs or so in gains in 3 years of cycling at that point! I was doing it wrong- wrong for me anyway. And, I believe a lot of people are taking 2 steps forward and 1.5 steps back after every cycle. I don't think training and rest are the only factors in this, but, yes, they are very important!

(It's late and I'm rambling, I realize that... )

 

[satyricon1]

I see a lot of people are talking about their genetic potential and that they have exceeded it. I am by far near my genetic potential, and I am currently at 250 pounds with 11% bodyfat. I have worked out for 20 years, mainly natural. When I do a cycle, I want to keep most of the gains, minus water weight. Ofcause I am using creatine Monohydrate while on, and I do not stop it, ever. It will help retain waterweight.

If I had SARMS available to me, I would gain during PCT, hands down, no doubt in my mind. I have been able to gain while on tren PCT by using HCG injects, I gained about 15 pounds after my previous tren cycle, that I kept.

When it comes to eating, I am focusing on getting enough protein, total cals is about 500 above my daily average. This makes me lean out a bit, and I get pretty lean gains. I use nolva/arimidex on cycle to prevent bloating, about every 3rd day i take 0.25mg Adex and I add nolva 20mg for a few days if i notice puffyness or feel bloated. So by the end of my cycle, I do not have a whole lot of waterweight to shed.

End of the line is that I do not belive in genetic potentials in the manner that many use it on these forums. I see people using sick ammounts of gear, and they eat like 600 pound freaks, but they are doing the same worthless workout routines, year after year after year after year, without any understanding of how the stimulation of muscles and growth works. Some people even sit in the gym 7 days a week pumping the same muscles groups over and over and wonder why they did not gain shit on their cycle, so next time they increase the dosages...

Get a program that is scientificly proven. A program that focus on hypertrophy. Eat enough, dont overeat, take breaks, use gear to increase the gains you would get if you were clean. If you cant gain clean, you need to reconcider your workout/rest routine. I have never stoped gaining naturally, even tho I sometimes prefer a kick by juicing.

End of the line is, eating, gearing and sleeping is important, but you have to get the correct stimulus for your muscles to grow more. Size matters nothing, as long as you are able to establish hypertrophic environment for your muscles.

 

[jacshelb]

Very good post man! I see what you are saying.

QUOTE=satyricon1;9791745]I see a lot of people are talking about their genetic potential and that they have exceeded it. I am by far near my genetic potential, and I am currently at 250 pounds with 11% bodyfat. I have worked out for 20 years, mainly natural. When I do a cycle, I want to keep most of the gains, minus water weight. Ofcause I am using creatine Monohydrate while on, and I do not stop it, ever. It will help retain waterweight.

If I had SARMS available to me, I would gain during PCT, hands down, no doubt in my mind. I have been able to gain while on tren PCT by using HCG injects, I gained about 15 pounds after my previous tren cycle, that I kept.

When it comes to eating, I am focusing on getting enough protein, total cals is about 500 above my daily average. This makes me lean out a bit, and I get pretty lean gains. I use nolva/arimidex on cycle to prevent bloating, about every 3rd day i take 0.25mg Adex and I add nolva 20mg for a few days if i notice puffyness or feel bloated. So by the end of my cycle, I do not have a whole lot of waterweight to shed.

End of the line is that I do not belive in genetic potentials in the manner that many use it on these forums. I see people using sick ammounts of gear, and they eat like 600 pound freaks, but they are doing the same worthless workout routines, year after year after year after year, without any understanding of how the stimulation of muscles and growth works. Some people even sit in the gym 7 days a week pumping the same muscles groups over and over and wonder why they did not gain shit on their cycle, so next time they increase the dosages...

Get a program that is scientificly proven. A program that focus on hypertrophy. Eat enough, dont overeat, take breaks, use gear to increase the gains you would get if you were clean. If you cant gain clean, you need to reconcider your workout/rest routine. I have never stoped gaining naturally, even tho I sometimes prefer a kick by juicing.

End of the line is, eating, gearing and sleeping is important, but you have to get the correct stimulus for your muscles to grow more. Size matters nothing, as long as you are able to establish hypertrophic environment for your muscles.[/QUOTE]

 

[needtogetaas]

After a cycle, when your hormone levels are completely fucked up, you start your PCT in order to get things back in order. You eat a lot to prevent losing weight. Hopefully you can gain some even.

If however you goto the gym, you cause micro trauma to your muscles, instead of repairing and building new muscle, the body now allows the muscle tissue to break down due to low concentration of maintanance hormone levels.

Every time I have done PCT, I have stayed out of the gym, just eating like a beast and relaxing.

I have never had a problem with losing all my gains...

Whats your thoughts on this?

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/p...ling-into-pct-after-cutting-cycle-663566.html


When coming of a cycle the main goal is to keep as much gains as you can. At least for most people. Except what if your whole cycle was geared around fat lose and cutting?

When your whole cycle was geared around maintaining muscle size and strength well dropping body fat. Does PCT,diet,and training change when it comes time for PCT?

After all for you the goal when the cycle is over is still the same. To get threw PCT with out losing muscle,and or gaining fat.

Heh seems pretty damn tough PCT predicament you got yourself into don't it. Its likely you have been running below cals,taking clen,t-3,steroids like winny,primo,masteron and others. Lots of cardio maybe? High volume training?


When the contest prep or cutting cycle is over most often people just say AAAAAHHH fuck it and let the weight pack on. What if you don't want that though? What then. These questions have many answers and they depend on many factors.


However I will attempt to make a common rule of them for coming off a cutter and everything you can do to keep the muscle,strength well not gaining tons of BF at the same time.


I will address each factor 1 by 1. Feel free to object all you like and throw in what works for you. This is just a basic outline.


Training.

Coming off any cycle this is a common question everyone wants to know. Do I keep training as often, with the same level of intensity,same work out,same weights,same reps. What about cardoi.

1. when you come off cycle wether its a bulk cycle,cut cycle,lean bulk it don't matter. You can not train as often as you did when you were on. Yes you can still bust your ass every day you step into the gym but its a fact my friends "your muscle are not recovering as fast and you have to adjust training for this reason"... No way around it no matter what. So be it coming off bulking or cutting or what ever Less time in the gym and more time off recuperating is key. focusing on the big basics and doing them right.

A 3 day or 4 day training split. Something like this would work but its up to you to put the training together.

Day 1 ON
Day 2 ON
Day 3 OFF
Day 4 ON
Day 5 OFF
Day 6 ON
Day 7 OFF

Or any variation of but the point it allowing your muscle more time to rest.

What about killing them muscles and beating the crap out of them? gain sorry if you are not genetically gifted its a no go.

Lower the reps and raise the weights. focusing on the big basics all exercises to be done strict with focus one adding weight to the bars each week.

yes you may lose some strength when coming of but if you cut it bac to the basics, get plenty of rest, eat right, and take the right sups then this does not have to be the case.

Now I am sure you are wondering about cardoi? 10-15 min warm ups before work outs. 1-2 long sessions on off days. Thats plenty and do not over do it.

So to sum up training when coming off cycle.
1. cut back to the basic lifts,
2. focus on the core compound lifts most, with adding weight to the bar as the main goals
3. Add in some other lifts but do not over do it. Even these should be lower reps with more weight and not a tun of volume.
4. lower volume down not mean less intensity. What ever you do put as much effort into it as always.
5. A little more rest time between sets 1-2 mins
6. sleep,rest,sleep,rest give your body the rest it needs.
7. Keep up with cardoi but do not start going nuts with it thinking its going to help you keep the fat off. muscles will suffer.

Diet
Ok you were below cal maintenance well on your cycle and that was fine because steroids helped. Now what?

No more super fast nutrition retention,no more steroids helping you recover faster. Sure does suck don't it. Guess what its about to suck even more. Unless you can get this one perfect your screwed (again genitally gifted need not apply thanks)

Kick calories up to just above maintenance and Protein better be a big part of the kick up 50/30/20 is a good idea
if you keep it real clean you should not have a problem. Not eating enough during this time is the most common down fall of all. Most people think they are not on so they should eat less. Or maybe they think eating a lot less will save them from gaining fat again... Again your muscles will suffer and in the end so will body fat% Just keep it clean and eat more not less.

You are going to gain some BF% back but if done right its not going to be a crap load... Don't be the guy who freaks out and losses his head just because it happens. Stick to the plan.



OK PCT and sups when coming off.

So First thing is first. Recovering the nuts back,getting test flowing is the main focus. We all have that special PCT we hold dear to our hearts. BIG DEAL!!!! (genetically gifted need not comment)

Ok the basic recovery PCT
Clomid and or nolva
HCGenerate
forma-stanzol
post cycle and Unleashed blah blah blah blah

The reason for this thread is not to discus what to use to recover your hpta. Get take something and get it done. All of them work for many different reasons but that is for a whole different topic not this thread. Clomid and nolva are not going to add anything extra to the recovery process or two helping keep off the bf% and preserve muscle mass though. There job=help recover hpta thats it. Not nutrition retention,not burn fat,not more blood volume,not give you more energy,focus,make you feel better in any way shape or form. Strictly recovery of the hpta thats it nothing more nothing less. They can work for what they need to work for but thats all they are for.


So what other sups can you take with your PCT to help get threw the PCT after a cut?

cla

If you were on clen then a CNS fat burner is not the best choice but switching to a Thermo fat burner like forged post cycle or others for the first few weeks can help.

If t-3 was part of the cycle then a natural Thyroid helping product is a good idea ZIP works well. Add Taurine as well.

A NO+energy product combo that is not loaded with extra useless cals,sugars,and fillers. combos that can help

lipostim AM dose
amo2+forged burner or if you need more kick Am02+lipostim for pre work out as well.


Creatin post work out only or at least avoid using any sugar filled flavored brands. Useless cals is not what you want at this time. Ethyl ester or rawmcc threw out the day is fine.

BCAA's threw out the day. Of course I think gear will be perfect for this but what ever just use them threw out the day. Again just avoid any sugar filled flavored liquid kinds.

Feel free to add what ever you like. Ask any questions you like, fill in anything I missed.

We are all a team.

Can be switched up a bit for after a bulking cycle but its about the same ideas.

 

[satyricon1]

First of all I want to say, VERY good post N2get! Many good points there!

About my stats and being a liar, I basicly never shoot at people.. but here goes: I am 191cms or about 6'3. Currently at 117kg or around 246 pounds. Been training all my life, mostly natural. Thatbloke; If its you on the avatar.. then I feel sorry for you. I read about your cruising, synthol etc, I really do not think you are as big as of "reached your genetic potential" yet. Maybe there are other factors that could be altered in order to help you gain more mass. I really do not understand the need for personal attacks, maybe you disagree with my theories, wich is perfectly fine, personal attacks are not.

Moving on...

The discussion about working out during PCT is very interesting, but not yet concluded. Let me detail why the PCT workout is of no benefit. As we all know, in order to get igf-1 levels up, and other signal substances, you have to break down muscle fibers. In order to break down a muscle fiber, or create Micro Trauma, wich it is actually called, you need to cause a workload on the muscle that exceeds the protective fibrine layer surrounding the muscle. If you do not exceed this load, there will be no dmg to the muscle itself, however, the nerves providing electrical impulses to the muscles about contractions will still be overloaded and can result in major soreness lasting for days.

Now that you have come off the steroids and are into your PCT period, your strength has been greatly reduced. Concidering that you need to lift heavier weights than you did in your previous workout to create micro-trauma, it is not likely that you will be able to achieve this, concidering the reduction in strength. The fibrine layer will deteriorate over time, aproximately 10 days is what it takes for a fibrine layer to be completely broken down to minimum resistance protection. This means that you will have microtrauma in your muscles lifting about 40% of your 1RM. If you take 10 days off, or 2 weeks off from the gym during your early pct, you will break down the fibrine layers. Once you hit the gym again, you can increase your growth factors by causing micro trauma to your muscles, by lifting fairly light weights. This is essential. Without microtrauma, no growth factors, no growth factors, no growth and most importantly, no anabolic state. It will only effect your combustion of callories, equalling a moderate cardio run. Who wants to do cardio during PCT?

If however you are able to lift heavier during your workouts in PCT than you did in your last workout on cycle, go ahead and do it, cause the micro trauma and enjoy the benefits, however, if you can not exceed the workload, take a break, allow fibrine to break away and enjoy great gains from light workouts. Resulting in a very anabolic state in a catabolic environment.

 

[footdoc]

This is really an interesting thread. In med school we were always taught that when you stop stressing your muscles they atrophy. I can see some logic behind what you are saying but it's hard to wrap my head around it all. This is exactly why I joined this site, to learn new ideas and hopefully contribute medically

 

[satyricon1]

Thatbloke: Fair enough, guess I overreacted as well =D

Footdoc: you are correct, but keep in mind that before the muscles can be broken down, the fibrine have to go first, when its gone, you hit the gym again and reap the benefits. It is actually using science and biology to maximize gains =)

 

[the.gladiator1987]

Thatbloke: Fair enough, guess I overreacted as well =D

Footdoc: you are correct, but keep in mind that before the muscles can be broken down, the fibrine have to go first, when its gone, you hit the gym again and reap the benefits. It is actually using science and biology to maximize gains =)

hey bro it makes sense as far as size goes, but what about keeping strength gains. I dont care about size but i do care about strength so doing something like a 5x5 in PCT would be good yea?