Newbie Question - Hard Gainer

[zPower]

Hey all,

I just come across the forum on google and thought you might be able to assist me in my training. I've been hitting the gym for over 12 months now but I can't exactly say I am that impressed with results. I am what you might consider a "hard gainer", if there is such a thing.

I am usually in the gym four to five times a week, mostly in a morning. I get up, have a medium sized meal and a energy drink (33g carbs, 26g of which is sugar), then set off. Although I have eaten and have a drink I can get quite tired when training. I suspect this is one reason why I am not seeing the results I expect. After training I have been having a "mass builder" shake which seems only to be adding fat, not muscle.

I tried eating 4000 calaries a day but I just put body fat on like there is no tomorrow. I had to scale down to 2000-2500 to balance the intake and the bodyfat. Now I am back down to 13% I would like to try building muscle without getting fat.

My training consists of 10 minutes running, and 40 minutes of weights training. The weight training is mostly 3 or 4 sets of 8, and on maximum weight (for me).

Here are my stats...
Age: 24
Height: 6'2"
Weight 167 Lbs
Body Fat: 13%
Build: Slim

I would like to know where I am going wrong, and what suggestions you have for me. I hoprfully will come back over month or so and post my gains or losses along with any programme I have been following.

Thanks for your support !!!

 

[JDid23]

hey.... well for starters at least you're dedicated- that's going to mean that you have the potential to stick to a program

if i wer eyou, i would start a program with the main compound lifts like rippetoes.. It's a good program for learning the basics of lifting--- what is your current routine like?

 

[zPower]

I'm quite familiar with the basics, just don't seem to get anywhere. I find that when working through a programme I build up strength quite well over a few months, then I get to a point where injury comes in. Its almost like the strength is there to lift, but the muscle can't cope. Am I doing too much maybe?


Where possible I try to use free weights instead of machines, although my weekly programme does use a number of machines for back, arms, and legs.

 

[Tblock1]

eat....

 

[zPower]

eat....

Dude thats not very helpful.


I explained that I can pile in the food but also pile on the body fat in the process. That didn't work in the last 12 months so I suspect its not going to work in the next 12. My aim is not to be 25 stone with a little muscle. Thats why I am asking where I am going wrong. Is it the wrong food, wrong training, etc.. ?

 

[the.gladiator1987]

your diet puts on muscle, what was your diet like when it was 4000 cals? I bet it wasnt clean calories...

training is usually never wrong, unless you are a retard. Diet is where most people screw up, especially people like you who are 6'2" and 167. Post up your diet

 

[gstacker]

Yup^^ post up diet and training an weight ur working with. I mean u say u know how to work out but if ur a noob??? I need help with my training n diet all the time an I been lifting for a long time.

 

[zPower]

Off the top of my head, heres what I'm doing.
I'll have missed a few things off.


Chin-Up


Chest
BB Chest Press (dec, flat, and inc) (127 total)
DB Chest Press (dec, flat, and inc) (44lbs each)
Pec-Fly Machine (99lbs)
Dumbbell Flyes (22lbs)


Back
Lat-Pulldown (165lbs)
DB One Arm Row (48lbs)
Reverse Flye Machine (77lbs)


Arms
DB Curls (22lbs)
Machine Curls (77lbs)
Tricep Pushdown (110lbs bar, 55lbs rope)
Seated Cable Pull (121lbs)


Shoulders
Dumbbell Shoulder Raise (44lbs each)
Machine Should Press (176lbs total)
DB Shrugs (70lbs each)


Legs
Leg Press (200lbs)
Leg Curl (66lbs)
Leg Extension (66lbs)
Calf Raises (165lbs)

 

[JDid23]

hey bro good news!!!!

i think we found what is wrong ^^

no squats, no deadlifts.... check out rippetoes 3x5 starting strength and you should see gains providing your diet is good

 

[gstacker]

Dead lifts, squats and bench press is your bread n butter to gaining... And a hi calorie clean diet.
Lift in the 6-10 rep range.

 

[Tblock1]

Yeah put more compound lifts in there and less machines. Those weight gainer shakes are just what they say: they make you gain weight. You are going to get fat along with muscle. You need to eat a cleaner higher protein diet. I'm still just a noob at it myself but I have gone from 150 to 190 over a year of lifting. Focus on compounds, and get plenty of food.

 

[NewestNoobie]

Listen dude im in same boat as you. 4 years of training and Ive gaiend about 25 lbs. I was dedicated in the 2st year then gradually my interest wained as I failed to see results and things came up. But I still trained. Then chaning my diet and switching to coumpund movements was suggested by those here and Ive put on 12 lbs in a month. Im guessing from BF change that half of that is fat, a few lbs is water but thats still leaves 2-3 lbs in a month, from eating like a madman.

Fuck the weight gain shakes, its all sugar. Buy some protein and mix in outmeal and other stuff to add calories.

 

[zPower]

OK thanks for all the advice !!!

I'm going to try get some diet advice over the next few days. I'll post up a new diet and training programme and we'll go from there.

 

[zPower]

Before I put together a new training plan I just want to ask...

Assuming I go to the gym four days a week, which unfortunately are four consecutive days. How is it best to split up my workout? Do I split them up into groups like Back, Shoulders, Chest, Legs, and Arms? Also is it necessary to have a dedicated CV day or just do a bit each day?

 

[brandonp005]

Yeah bro, add the compound lifts to your routine. Also, the meal that you have before your workout, try to incorporate some complex carbs as well. That will give you some energy that will last better than the simple sugars that give you a spike for about 30 mins followed by a crash. When you increase your calories, keep your ratios around 45% protein, 40% carbs, 15% fats. If you do this, this will help you gain nice mass instead of all that fat you were talking about. Also, make sure you take in a nice protein shake immediately following your workout. www.needtobuildmucle.com has a great post workout shake called Muscle Replenisher. Its gives you everything that you need in a post workout shake. PM me for a discount code.

Also, if your doing cardio, make sure you do that following your workout. Its ok to do a light jog pre workout to get the blood flowing, but thats it. Cardio causes your IGF-1 levels to drop, which will hinder your workouts.

PM me anytime and I'll help you devise a nice training routine and give you some advice on some good supplements that are available out there. And no, I don't mean steroids!

 

[brandonp005]

Before I put together a new training plan I just want to ask...

Assuming I go to the gym four days a week, which unfortunately are four consecutive days. How is it best to split up my workout? Do I split them up into groups like Back, Shoulders, Chest, Legs, and Arms? Also is it necessary to have a dedicated CV day or just do a bit each day?

Monday (chest/abs)
Tuesday (back/biceps/forearms)
Wednesday (shoulders/triceps)
Thursday (legs/abs)

***I'm currently doing this training split myself and really like like it.

 

[zPower]

Thanks for that dude I really appreciate it !

 

[brandonp005]

Thanks for that dude I really appreciate it !

hardly nothing bro...thats what EF is all about...helping each other out

 

[zPower]

How does something like this look for day 1?

Day 1 - Chest & Abs
1. Barbell Bench Press Flat - 4 sets of 8 (Total in bar 115Lbs)
2. Barbell Bench Press Incline - 4 sets of 8 (Total in bar 115Lbs)
Should I alternate the above with dumbbells each week ?
3. Barbell Bench Press Decline - 4 sets of 8 (Total in bar 115Lbs)
4. Chest Dips - Never done these so how many should I do?
5. Push-ups - Again, how many is reasonable?
6. Ab Crunch - 3 sets of 20

 

[brandonp005]

How does something like this look for day 1?

Day 1 - Chest & Abs
1. Barbell Bench Press Flat - 4 sets of 8 (Total in bar 115Lbs)
2. Barbell Bench Press Incline - 4 sets of 8 (Total in bar 115Lbs)
Should I alternate the above with dumbbells each week ?
3. Barbell Bench Press Decline - 4 sets of 8 (Total in bar 115Lbs)
4. Chest Dips - Never done these so how many should I do?
5. Push-ups - Again, how many is reasonable?
6. Ab Crunch - 3 sets of 20

bro, i'm off to bed...absolutely wore out..i'll check back in on this tomorrow though and help ya fine tune everything

 

[NewestNoobie]

How does something like this look for day 1?

Day 1 - Chest & Abs
1. Barbell Bench Press Flat - 4 sets of 8 (Total in bar 115Lbs)
2. Barbell Bench Press Incline - 4 sets of 8 (Total in bar 115Lbs)
Should I alternate the above with dumbbells each week ?
3. Barbell Bench Press Decline - 4 sets of 8 (Total in bar 115Lbs)
4. Chest Dips - Never done these so how many should I do?
5. Push-ups - Again, how many is reasonable?
6. Ab Crunch - 3 sets of 20

96 working reps + dips and pushups

Even to my untrained eyes thats too much IMHO. Id try dropping to 3 sets and pyramiding up if thats the type of workout your going for. ex. 8 reps at 75lbs, 8 reps at 95lbs, 8 reps at 115lbs. The next time you workoutout chest you should be able to add 5lbs to these, then 5lbs the week after, ect.

 

[moya]

96 working reps + dips and pushups

Even to my untrained eyes thats too much IMHO. Id try dropping to 3 sets and pyramiding up if thats the type of workout your going for. ex. 8 reps at 75lbs, 8 reps at 95lbs, 8 reps at 115lbs. The next time you workoutout chest you should be able to add 5lbs to these, then 5lbs the week after, ect.

^this...

...where is joe d with a link to the 20 rep squars and milk program...

 

[zPower]

I tried this today and agree its a little too much.

I did...
1. Barbell Bench Press Flat - 3 Sets with increased weight less 1 rep
2. Barbell Bench Press Incline - 3 Sets with increased weight less 1 rep
3. Chest Dips - 3 Sets of 5, LOL
4. Push-ups - 3 Sets of 12
5. Ab Crunch - 3 sets of 20

Can I set this as day 1 then?

 

[JDid23]

hey... i don't want to discredit brandonp's advice as he is much more experienced than i am, but don't you think that doing a split like you gave zpower is more of an advanced split? As a beginner who has never done the compound lifts, i personally think he should be focusing on doing the compound lifts in a program like rippetoes or 5x5 in order to get a good foundation.

I think in his case, the concept less is more applies

 

[zPower]

jdid23, I have done bench press before. I think 5x5 would allow for a little more weight to be used but would probably end up going to failure on set 5. How does this look for tomorrow?


Day 2 - back/biceps/forearms

1. Chin Ups 3x8 - maybe alternate weekly with Pull Ups ?
2. One Arm Dumbbell Rows 3x8 with increased weight.
3. Lat Pulldown 3x8 with increased weight
4. Barbell curl 3x8 - alternate weekly with dumbbells?

Any suggestions for forearm - not done these before.

 

[JDid23]

jdid23, I have done bench press before. I think 5x5 would allow for a little more weight to be used but would probably end up going to failure on set 5. How does this look for tomorrow?


Day 2 - back/biceps/forearms

1. Chin Ups 3x8 - maybe alternate weekly with Pull Ups ?
2. One Arm Dumbbell Rows 3x8 with increased weight.
3. Lat Pulldown 3x8 with increased weight
4. Barbell curl 3x8 - alternate weekly with dumbbells?

Any suggestions for forearm - not done these before.

this is just my suggestion, but i would do....

1. Deadlift- 4x6 (this includes warmups... get a feel for the lift man- it is one of the foundations of every good program)- check out the sticky's for form- heres the link- http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/w...xercises-articles-more-start-here-655389.html
2. Chinups or pullups is fine- it's a matter of preference.- 3 sets
3. DB Rows- 3x8..
4. Barbell Curls OR DB Curls- 3x8--- do whichever one you like more and progress with it as best as you can
5. Lat Pulldown- 3x8 (if you really want it... rows and chins are already hitting your lats)
6. Forearm exercise- you can do wrist curls or hammer curls


also, most people in the gym have done bench press before haha the real compounds you want to focus on at this point imo are squats and deadlifts. Those two lifts release the most growth hormones of any lift and also work the most muscles of any lift. Once you start doing them i swear you will never have any desire to take them out of your routine

 

[zPower]

The deadlifts are new to me. I'm going to give that a go tomorrow and report back.

Thanks for the help so far guys !

 

[brandonp005]

hey... i don't want to discredit brandonp's advice as he is much more experienced than i am, but don't you think that doing a split like you gave zpower is more of an advanced split? As a beginner who has never done the compound lifts, i personally think he should be focusing on doing the compound lifts in a program like rippetoes or 5x5 in order to get a good foundation.

I think in his case, the concept less is more applies

yeah your right...i get excited sometimes..haha


right now he really needs to focus on good form, no matter how light the weight you have to go

 

[JDid23]

yeah your right...i get excited sometimes..haha


right now he really needs to focus on good form, no matter how light the weight you have to go

agreed about the form.... even if that means working with the bar for most lifts.

post back and let us know how you do on the deadlifts..... i would start rippetoes asap though if i were you.

 

[zPower]

Day 1
- DB Incline Flyes (12kg)
- DB Incline Chest Press (12kg)
- DB Chest Press (22kg)
- Chest Dips

The incline press and chest are done together in the same set, 3 x 8+8. Is this recommended or shall i go for a higher weight but do them seperate?

Day 2
- Lat Pulldowns (55kg)
- Seated Cable Row (60kg)
- BB Bicep Curl (10kg)
- DB Hammer Curls (8kg)
- DB Preacher Curls (8kg)

Day 3
- DB Front Raise (6kg)
- DB Side Raise (6kg)
- DB Shoulder Raise (22kg)
- DB Shrugs (30kg)

Day 4
- Lying Leg Curl (25kg)
- Seated Leg Extension (30kg)
- DB Lunges (5kg)

This has been my training plan for the last eight weeks. Everything here is done as 3 sets of 8 except the incline chest as described. Is it necessary to change the plan or carry on with the above?

Is training supposed to be kept under 45 minutes per session or is this a myth?

Can I split day 2 and 4 up, then mix them together. This would mean day 2 would be back and legs, then day 4 would be arms and legs. Is this recommended?

 

[JDid23]

Day 1
- DB Incline Flyes (12kg)
- DB Incline Chest Press (12kg)
- DB Chest Press (22kg)
- Chest Dips

The incline press and chest are done together in the same set, 3 x 8+8. Is this recommended or shall i go for a higher weight but do them seperate?

Day 2
- Lat Pulldowns (55kg)
- Seated Cable Row (60kg)
- BB Bicep Curl (10kg)
- DB Hammer Curls (8kg)
- DB Preacher Curls (8kg)

Day 3
- DB Front Raise (6kg)
- DB Side Raise (6kg)
- DB Shoulder Raise (22kg)
- DB Shrugs (30kg)

Day 4
- Lying Leg Curl (25kg)
- Seated Leg Extension (30kg)
- DB Lunges (5kg)

This has been my training plan for the last eight weeks. Everything here is done as 3 sets of 8 except the incline chest as described. Is it necessary to change the plan or carry on with the above?

Is training supposed to be kept under 45 minutes per session or is this a myth?

Can I split day 2 and 4 up, then mix them together. This would mean day 2 would be back and legs, then day 4 would be arms and legs. Is this recommended?

did you just disregard everything everyone posted? please reread through this thread and then ask questions.

 

[gstacker]

Ya were going in circuls here....

Squats, deads and bench press

eat alot of clean calories.

Kiss, keep it simple Simon.