new jail programs in Arizona

[GoldenDelicious]

Punishment I can deal with. Chain gangs, labor, etc. You're going to do some time, give taxpayers some return on their $40K per year investment. Clean some highways, etc, I can live with that.

But Max 300 is right on: as punishment, not for punishment.

Sherriff whatever his name is is dehumanizing people. Dehumanization through taking away all comforts will result in the release of savages. If you haven't been treated like a person on some basic levels, you're not going to act like one when released.

Feeding them bologna sandwiches, putting them in conditions where it is 110+ degrees so they will strip down etc, is pure dehumanization. It's borderline torture, and if you've seen Viet Nam vets on the sidewalk next to the highway with a sign and a cup, that's the best outcome.

The worst is the release of an already violent person into society after a few years of being treated like an animal. Have fun with that.

Other countries have far harsher sentences: death for drug importation, etc. yet they still have crime. Punishment doesn;t deter crime.

The comparions to iraq are offensive in their intellectual dishonesty.

why is it dehumanising? because the underwear and towels are pink?

dont you think that the absence of luxuries will make them all the more poignant in the free world? or shall we make a mockery of the justice system by having 47 flavours of icecream available to choose from for the inmates, but people on the outside may not be able to afford them at all

the absence of luxuries (for the most part) is good. imo it will give more value to those items on the outside. its not a subtle point. you steal, you get caught, you live like shit. youre honest, you work, you get the things you like! furthermore as per the work hard aspect, well learning how to work hard day in day out is a great idea. imo it will prepare people to hold a job on the outside - since there isnt much chance that working on the outside is going to be as hard as the crap you did on the inside.

i think that what theyre doing in AZ is more rehabilitory than the mockery that takes place in other parts of the world

 

[Becoming]

I'm stationed in Tucson, AZ right now and seriously I could give a fuck about Sheriff Joe and his 3 ring circus.

I've met the man and truly he's all about publicity and nothing else. People from other states might look at what he's done and thing it's actually worthwhile, but seriously he's only concerned with publicity and his future run for political office.

Arpaio is a fucking idoit - he might know how to make jail unpleasant but his sherrif's couldn't solve a case or catch anyone if their life depended on it...

They also had a prison standoff here a while back that had TWO inmates holed up for weeks and some female prison guard raped during that whole time... It really should have been easy to go in there and whack those fucks...

Our state is nothing to idolize by any means...

 

[DIVISION]

Arpaio is a fucking idoit - he might know how to make jail unpleasant but his sherrif's couldn't solve a case or catch anyone if their life depended on it...

They also had a prison standoff here a while back that had TWO inmates holed up for weeks and some female prison guard raped during that whole time... It really should have been easy to go in there and whack those fucks...

Our state is nothing to idolize by any means...

I met Sheriff Joe up in Mesa @ BestBuy.

He's nice, but from talking with him for 20 min., he's not really all there. I'd imagine he enjoys the publicity that his stunts garner him, but really, I think it's a joke. His tactics don't really do anything in my opinion. I hadn't read up on the recent prisoner standoff, but nothing suprises me about Arizona. I like Gov. Napolitano, but that's about it as far as our state politicians.

DIV

 

[Becoming]

You are more optimistic than I am - the people in charge here are freaking idiots IMO... no long term vision...

 

[Fast Twitch Fiber]

Yeah, criminals should be punished. However, there's a reason most states abolished chain gangs. This sherrif sounds like a sadistic attention whore. Maybe we should just bring back the old Southern chain gangs where people were whipped and tortured. Strange how even in those days crime still existed.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

why is it dehumanising? because the underwear and towels are pink?

Nah. Dehumanizing because this sort of treatment no longer affords any dignity at all.

As per my understanding, if the jail is run by a sherriff, it is not a state prison and does not house the most violent offenders, except at the end of thier sentencs through a quirk in the system. But it is a fair statement that the prisoners being housed there are not the state's killers.

Let me also state clearly that I have no problem with the dehumanization of convicted murderers, as they are never getting out of jail anyway. (or should not)

These are not those prisoners. And it is unreasonable to conclude "an inmate is an inmate"; US states do not even think this way despite their bureaucracy.

Further, and somewhat tangentially, many state prison guards (in the US, state prison = violent felons, county jails = other, misdemeanor convicts etc. County jails are the province of the sherriff.) want inmates to have fitness programs and cable TV. It gives them a sense of purpose and releases some energy.

Prison guards desire this treatment of the most violent criminals because they are loath to have to try and contain a prison fuill of killers with energy, time and nothing to do. Further, prison guards state almost uniformly that the threat of removing these priviliges modifies behavior even among the most violent.

And again, these are not the most violent. So we are left with a premise on which to base this discussion

1. The inmates of a county jail are less violent and have shorter criminal records than those in state prison, thus should be punished less harshly.

2. The inmates of a county jail, being less violent and/or less experienced as criminals, will react better to a system of harsh punishment, making subsequent crime and incarceration in state prison less likely.

3. State prisons, by allowing recreation and cable TV, are not harsh enough.

#1 and #3 are contradicted by the testimony of most prison guards. i will consider their statements the most informed, so we can immediately and summarily dismiss #1 and #3.

Premise #2 is where the issue of dehumanization comes in.

According to what you posted below, the reason these people are in jail in the first place is they are unable to comprehend things like "if you steal, you get caught, then you will live like shit".

Do you stand by that statement? I left it here for ease of review, and will not discuss further until you elaborate.

Now, lastly, to dehumanization.

People react to how they are treated. When you set expectations for them, their behavior will reinforce those expectations. In the military, a new recruit fucks up, he gets a face full of drill sergeant.

He's mocked briefly, chided, and feels like shit. I've been there. Behavior changes when the recruit does the right thing and gets no chiding. The recruit is briefly dehumanized, but then shown a path to growth, and so to speak "rehumanized" in theimage that the military desires. I've been throuigh US Army Ranger training, it is extremely dehumanizing, except there is a way out and a way to show different results by doing your missions. As you grow through the course, instructors stop fucking with you.

The prisoner's situation is different. There is no path to better treatment. The prisoner who makes trouble or who is an asshole does nto get any better treatment than the prisoner who quietly and obediently does his time. With breakdown and build-up in the military, behavior modification allows recruits to learn.

With no path to better treatment, the prisoner is dehumanized by the treatment, and then left in that status. Upon release, the prisoner has not learned anything, except that "no matter what I do I am a piece of shit".

Actions follow expectations. No "other" expectation is set. That's the heart of dehumanization.

dont you think that the absence of luxuries will make them all the more poignant in the free world? or shall we make a mockery of the justice system by having 47 flavours of icecream available to choose from for the inmates, but people on the outside may not be able to afford them at all

the absence of luxuries (for the most part) is good. imo it will give more value to those items on the outside. its not a subtle point. you steal, you get caught, you live like shit. youre honest, you work, you get the things you like! furthermore as per the work hard aspect, well learning how to work hard day in day out is a great idea. imo it will prepare people to hold a job on the outside - since there isnt much chance that working on the outside is going to be as hard as the crap you did on the inside.

i think that what theyre doing in AZ is more rehabilitory than the mockery that takes place in other parts of the world

 

[UnStopAbleForce]

Fuck this sheriff guy. For all of you who say prisoners should be punished, that is fucking torturing them. Sure they deserve it if they are in for something like rape, or murder, I agree with that. But other than that, its unmoral. Imagine those who are locked up for selling steroids, now they have to do the time, and in a place like that..that harsh? Thats bullshit, that sheriff guy should be shot in his f'n head.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

Nah. Dehumanizing because this sort of treatment no longer affords any dignity at all.

As per my understanding, if the jail is run by a sherriff, it is not a state prison and does not house the most violent offenders, except at the end of thier sentencs through a quirk in the system. But it is a fair statement that the prisoners being housed there are not the state's killers.

Let me also state clearly that I have no problem with the dehumanization of convicted murderers, as they are never getting out of jail anyway. (or should not)

These are not those prisoners. And it is unreasonable to conclude "an inmate is an inmate"; US states do not even think this way despite their bureaucracy.

Further, and somewhat tangentially, many state prison guards (in the US, state prison = violent felons, county jails = other, misdemeanor convicts etc. County jails are the province of the sherriff.) want inmates to have fitness programs and cable TV. It gives them a sense of purpose and releases some energy.

Prison guards desire this treatment of the most violent criminals because they are loath to have to try and contain a prison fuill of killers with energy, time and nothing to do. Further, prison guards state almost uniformly that the threat of removing these priviliges modifies behavior even among the most violent.

And again, these are not the most violent. So we are left with a premise on which to base this discussion

1. The inmates of a county jail are less violent and have shorter criminal records than those in state prison, thus should be punished less harshly.

2. The inmates of a county jail, being less violent and/or less experienced as criminals, will react better to a system of harsh punishment, making subsequent crime and incarceration in state prison less likely.

3. State prisons, by allowing recreation and cable TV, are not harsh enough.

#1 and #3 are contradicted by the testimony of most prison guards. i will consider their statements the most informed, so we can immediately and summarily dismiss #1 and #3.

Premise #2 is where the issue of dehumanization comes in.

According to what you posted below, the reason these people are in jail in the first place is they are unable to comprehend things like "if you steal, you get caught, then you will live like shit".

Do you stand by that statement? I left it here for ease of review, and will not discuss further until you elaborate.

Now, lastly, to dehumanization.

People react to how they are treated. When you set expectations for them, their behavior will reinforce those expectations. In the military, a new recruit fucks up, he gets a face full of drill sergeant.

He's mocked briefly, chided, and feels like shit. I've been there. Behavior changes when the recruit does the right thing and gets no chiding. The recruit is briefly dehumanized, but then shown a path to growth, and so to speak "rehumanized" in theimage that the military desires. I've been throuigh US Army Ranger training, it is extremely dehumanizing, except there is a way out and a way to show different results by doing your missions. As you grow through the course, instructors stop fucking with you.

The prisoner's situation is different. There is no path to better treatment. The prisoner who makes trouble or who is an asshole does nto get any better treatment than the prisoner who quietly and obediently does his time. With breakdown and build-up in the military, behavior modification allows recruits to learn.

With no path to better treatment, the prisoner is dehumanized by the treatment, and then left in that status. Upon release, the prisoner has not learned anything, except that "no matter what I do I am a piece of shit".

Actions follow expectations. No "other" expectation is set. That's the heart of dehumanization.

Thus the cycle never ends.

For those on this board who find this to be proper treatment, look at why some of them are in there. Hope you don't get caught with a bottle of test in your medicine cabinet you don't have a script for... or a cop finds a couple dbol tabs in the bottom of your gym bag.