Nelson...Whats your view on Green Tea extract as a fat burner.

[mt]

Thyroid hormones are proteolytic in nature...they are catabolic to muscle tissue. Therefore, not the best way to burn fat.

Green tea does not work by increasing T3/T4, but rather activates thermogeneisis most likely via the Beta-3 adrenoreceptor, making it a true fat burner, that isn't catabolic to muscle, just fat.

What's "proteolytic"?

I've always read then when undergoing a strict diet you thyroid begins to slow down. Does it make sense taking a relatively low dose of T3 to counteract this (say, 25mcg)? Plus, since most here would be on gear while dieting wouldn't that spare muscle while on low does T3 and target fat more?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Thyroid hormones are proteolytic in nature...they are catabolic to muscle tissue. Therefore, not the best way to burn fat.

Green tea does not work by increasing T3/T4, but rather activates thermogeneisis most likely via the Beta-3 adrenoreceptor, making it a true fat burner, that isn't catabolic to muscle, just fat.

You're a little mistaken. Natural occuring tyroid hormones are not catabolic. It's the exogenous administration of T4 that upsets the hormonal balance forcing the thyroid to overwork. T3 does not need to be converted therefore it inhibits thyroid output and eats muscle tissue since the amount taken to burn fat is usually more than the body can tolerate. But having your own thyroid working optimally through proper nutrition and supplementation is the most effective, least catabolic method of burning fat.

 

["Z"]

You're a little mistaken. Natural occuring tyroid hormones are not catabolic. It's the exogenous administration of T4 that upsets the hormonal balance forcing the thyroid to overwork. T3 does not need to be converted therefore it inhibits thyroid output and eats muscle tissue since the amount taken to burn fat is usually more than the body can tolerate. But having your own thyroid working optimally through proper nutrition and supplementation is the most effective, least catabolic method of burning fat.

I don't think you understand how the thyroid works.

T4 is converted to T3. 80% of the circulating T3 comes through this conversion. Only 20% of plasma T3 is made by the thyroid gland.

Exogeneous administration of either T3 or T4 will increase protein catabolism, and also reduce TSH.

The thyroid, as I stated before is proteolytic in nature. It works through protein breakdown, and also fats and carbs. Basically, it stimulates the entire metabolism.

You can only increase the thyroid to the upper normal range w/o AAS. If you go over that w/o AAS, then your muscle will be aslowly eaten away.

12.5mcgs/day can optimize your thyroid to the upper normal range, while only showing a very small drop in TSH. Recovery here from 12.5mcgs T3 is almost a non-issue since TSH is only lowered by a small degree.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I don't think you understand how the thyroid works.

T4 is converted to T3. 80% of the circulating T3 comes through this conversion. Only 20% of plasma T3 is made by the thyroid gland.

Exogeneous administration of either T3 or T4 will increase protein catabolism, and also reduce TSH.

The thyroid, as I stated before is proteolytic in nature. It works through protein breakdown, and also fats and carbs. Basically, it stimulates the entire metabolism.

You can only increase the thyroid to the upper normal range w/o AAS. If you go over that w/o AAS, then your muscle will be aslowly eaten away.

12.5mcgs/day can optimize your thyroid to the upper normal range, while only showing a very small drop in TSH. Recovery here from 12.5mcgs T3 is almost a non-issue since TSH is only lowered by a small degree.

Wrong again. I know quite well how the thyroid works from first hand experience, not cutting and pasting material that is so convoluted it will hopefully appear impressive through its intimidatingly extraneous text.

Let's take your points one by one.

1...I am fully aware that T4 is converted to T3. I brought that up in my last post. What's your point?

2...Of course the thyroid stimulates the entire system. What's that have to do with anything?

3...Your point about exogenous administration causng catabolism is exactly what I said. You're disagreeing with me while agreeing with me.

4...True, you can only increase thyroid output to the upper level with supplements. That's the idea.

5...12.5mcgs of what? T4? T3? It doesn't matter. It won't optimize thyrid output. It'll suppress it.

6...To say that the thyroid is catabolic is like saying that oxygen causes oxidation so we should avoid breathing as much as possible.

Get your nose out of the books for a minute and try to apply some common sense.

 

[mt]

Reading these posts leaves me the impression that taking T3 burns both fat and muscle at an equal rate. Assuming you are not lean, say >15%, why would this be the case if you are eating at least 1 gram of protein/lb of body weight and doing resistance type training? Wouldn't this send a signal to the body to spare muscle tissue and target fat more. How is bumping up your thyroid different than just increasing activity and eating less to burn more calories? Is this also as catabolic to muscle as bumping up your thyroid. Why is T3 used so effectively with bodybuilders and fitness models to get so lean without excessively muscle loss.

My endocrinologist when referring to HRT told me that your body doesn't know or care where the testosterone comes from. It makes no difference to your body whether you make it yourself or have it administered. Does this also apply to T3 which I assume is also considered a hormone? And since T3 usually comes in 25mcg tabs where does this 12.5mcg/day high normal come from?

Patience, Nelson. What may seem self-evident to you may not be so obvious to others.

 

[Nelson Montana]

mt: I don't mind when someone has a question. That's my job to a degree-- to help people out however I can. I just get annoyed when people post long drawn out technical studies that hardly anyone o understands (including the poster) then misinterprets what I say and then turns around and accuses me of not knowing what I'm talking about. Errrg.

Thyroid hormone is much like T in it's effect, but realize any exogenous hormone will supress. And some hormonal pathways are more delicate than others.You're right in that using T3 to lose fat is probably no more catabolic than dieting and aerobics. But maximizing natural thyroid output is by far the best way to burn fat. That's why I developed "ZIP" but it's a hard sell because people still think of thermogenics as central nervous stimulents, which are REALLY catabolic.

 

[OMEGA]

Z

good stuff thanks!

 

[mt]

mt: I don't mind when someone has a question. That's my job to a degree-- to help people out however I can. I just get annoyed when people post long drawn out technical studies that hardly anyone o understands (including the poster) then misinterprets what I say and then turns around and accuses me of not knowing what I'm talking about. Errrg.

Thyroid hormone is much like T in it's effect, but realize any exogenous hormone will supress. And some hormonal pathways are more delicate than others.You're right in that using T3 to lose fat is probably no more catabolic than dieting and aerobics. But maximizing natural thyroid output is by far the best way to burn fat. That's why I developed "ZIP" but it's a hard sell because people still think of thermogenics as central nervous stimulents, which are REALLY catabolic.

I get you on the first point. And I, too, take umbrage (in case Naeblis still reads the board) when just because someone disagrees with me they claim I just don't understand the issue at all.

Anyway, I thought the whole selling point of thermogenics was that it was NOT catabolic to muscle whereas thyroid, though more effective, tends to burn calories more indiscriminately since it spends up the metabolism. The way I thought thermogenics works is that it heats up the body (recall that the main caloric expenditure of the human body is simply to keep it warm and maintain it's almost 100 degree basal temp) and by keeping it at a higher basal temperature it forces the burning of more calories to maintain that higher temp. It was my understanding that in the event stored energy must be tapped to keep the body warm it was fat that was the preferred energy source. The downside to this is, as you mentioned before, you tend to get it back after discontinuing thermogenic use. With thyroid you can burn fat and muscle depending on various factors.

 

["Z"]

mt: I don't mind when someone has a question. That's my job to a degree-- to help people out however I can. I just get annoyed when people post long drawn out technical studies that hardly anyone o understands (including the poster) then misinterprets what I say and then turns around and accuses me of not knowing what I'm talking about. Errrg.

Thyroid hormone is much like T in it's effect, but realize any exogenous hormone will supress. And some hormonal pathways are more delicate than others.You're right in that using T3 to lose fat is probably no more catabolic than dieting and aerobics. But maximizing natural thyroid output is by far the best way to burn fat. That's why I developed "ZIP" but it's a hard sell because people still think of thermogenics as central nervous stimulents, which are REALLY catabolic.

I understand the studies perfectly well.

The problem lies in the fact that ZIP does not contain Green Tea, hence why you're trying to discredit the research. There's plenty more where that research came from btw. Shows GT ECGC's to bemore thermogenic than even ephedrine. 4-5% Increase in your BMR. And GT is NOT a stimulant.

CNS stimulants catabolic?

Excuse me...but you're flat out wrong.

Ephedrine activates the Beta-2 adrenoreceptor which has some effects on protein Synthesis. While on a hypocaloric diet, FFA's will be oxidized preferentially over AA's for energy if you use ephedrine. Thats what's called a protein sparing effect.

ZIP! is just 7-oxo- DHEA a.k.a 7-Keto DHEA Thats pretty much it. The rest of the ingredients are pretty much useless. You can try to refute this, but you better back it up with peer reviewed studies. No opinions-only type responses.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I understand the studies perfectly well.

The problem lies in the fact that ZIP does not contain Green Tea, hence why you're trying to discredit the research. There's plenty more where that research came from btw. Shows GT ECGC's to bemore thermogenic than even ephedrine. 4-5% Increase in your BMR. And GT is NOT a stimulant.

CNS stimulants catabolic?

Excuse me...but you're flat out wrong.

Ephedrine activates the Beta-2 adrenoreceptor which has some effects on protein Synthesis. While on a hypocaloric diet, FFA's will be oxidized preferentially over AA's for energy if you use ephedrine. Thats what's called a protein sparing effect.

ZIP! is just 7-oxo- DHEA a.k.a 7-Keto DHEA Thats pretty much it. The rest of the ingredients are pretty much useless. You can try to refute this, but you better back it up with peer reviewed studies. No opinions-only type responses.

First of all, I don't play the "battle of the cut and paste studies". So I'm not going to get into that game.
If you want to feel superior because you're presenting a
extraneous study that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, be my guest.

You're also wrong, once again, on several counts. But I get the feeling you're not looking to debate or discuss. This is the second accusation you made about me, and it is quite ridiculous. You say I'm discrediting Green tea because ZIP doesn't contain it. Well, Einstein, that's a really a dum remark since it would have been very easy to include Green tea in ZIP. It isn't a patented substance. It's pretty cheap too, so throwing some in would have been no problem. But I do not think it's effective and may be counter productive to a thyroid formula. You may be educated but you're not very smart if you couldn't figure that out.

You're statement that the other ingredients in ZIP do nothing is flat out ignorant. I'm not going to supply the studies but a simple search will reveal you are in error, big time.

Thermogenics effect the nervous system and anything that aggravates the nervous system is catabolc.

Most CNS thermos do not raise body temperature unless the dose is so high you'll feel like you're on cocaine. Also, caffeine spares carbohydrates which also works against your fat burning goals. That's why ZIP is caffeine free. Again, it would have been very easy to load it with caffeine and have everybody jacked up. But that's not the way I work.

Elevating the thyroid will assure body temp does not drop below 98.6 You'd be surprised how many peoples temp is lower. So using the right supps is actually healthy whereas stimulants definetely are not.