Muscle soreness (or lack thereof) and seeing results (or lack thereof)

[Madd Hatter]

First, I apologize for the length, and for my incessant bitching (I've posted and whined before). I'm starting to get a little frustrated, and worried that I'm doing something wrong. I've only been doing free weights for a month or so, but I'm not sure it's getting me anywhere. I know my body's in better shape than a year ago, but it could have happened a few months back, and the improvement's not that great. I'm doing a 3 day split, going to the gym 4-5 days a week, and have recently cut cardio. I have a big gut, scrawny everywhere else, trying to add mass and just look better naked. I don't watch what I eat as well as I could, but still better than most. I've started taking 3 protein shakes a day, and am trying desperately to reach 170g or so a day (my weight), no supplements.
Day 1: Chest/Triceps - bench press, incline/decline bench, french curl, tricep press, maybe some dips and tricep kickbacks. Never too much weight (no partner), though not so little I can do a whole set in my sleep. Day after my tri's may feel somewhat sore, my chest NEVER feels sore.
Day 2: Biceps/Back - curls, lat pulldowns, a few chinups, hammer curls, back extension, a few misc. attempts at working the back because I'm clueless. Day after neither is sore. I need some good back exercises, only the less complicated the better (can't even do deadlifts right I don't think).
Day 3: Shoulders/Legs - leg press, a little leg extension, calf raises, leg lunges, military press, lateral raises, front raises. Day after my shoulders won't feel sore, my calves MAYBE a touch, my quads recently KILL (like, can hardly walk), otherwise nothing. I feel my legs, too, are a blown workout, but again, I can't do anything too complicated, I'm just a moron. Amazingly, I can do the form of a squat, but I'm bony and weak, and the bar hurts like hell and cuts me up.

The point of this? I don't know, mainly a rant I guess.
Nobody can help me too much w/o seeing me and/or what I'm like in the gym. I'm just wondering what I'm missing. I guess some specific questions I have... What are the best leg/back exercises that even an idiot can do? How long before I should see results and how to measure it? Is it useless unless I'm killing myself under a lot of weight? In my diet, I try to keep fat reasonable and get as much protein as I can, anything else (I'm currently 6'2", 170, 11.2% body fat)?

 

[Speedo Racer]

The overall best thing you can do is listen to Ms. Patti LaBelle and get a new attitude. Do you remember what Master Quai-Gon said to young Annikan Skywalker...."your focus determines your reality" No truer words have been spoken.

So, first of all, take a huge, deep breath...out with the negative...in with the positive. If you believe you can, then you can.

The next thing is to be realistic. You say you've been working with free weights for a month or so. Realistically, you need to give yourself more time. It will take a while for your muscle fibers to adapt to the new stress you are putting on them. Six months is a good time frame for noticable changes. You won't be The Hulk by then, but if you have consistently stayed with your program, you should notice significant strength increases and some slight increases in mass. If you are 6' 2 at 170, then most likely you are an ectomorph like me and increases in mass are just hard to do. Ectos have to work extra-hard just to have slight increases in mass, due to the long and lean nature of our muscles.


As for leg and back exercises: sounds like you have some good ones, the main thing is proper form. If your swinging any part of your body to help with the lift then you need to make adjustments. Nice controlled movements. Breathe properly, and remember that patience is key. DOMS, or delayed onset of muscle soreness, happens when you've overloaded your muscles with excess Calcium (triggers muscle contractions) to the point of actual fiber damage. The soreness is a result of the tissue damage, which causes the muscle fibers to repair and add more fibers for the next time you try and hurt it again. This is the hypertrophy effect. So, if you're not getting even a little soreness, try increasing the weight or make sure you are completing the entire movement...i.e. if you are doing dips, make sure you go ALL the way down and not just half way. This makes a huge difference.

But remember, if you're looking for a get-buffed-fast solution, then you need to re-think the whole process. Even with steroids, there is a process involved. It will take time for your muscles to adapt.

 

[Blood&Iron]

I'm not going to go into some long discussion 'cause I don't feel like it but suffice it to say muscle soreness is not an indicator of growth.

Never too much weight (no partner),

Well, this could be a problem.
Either do your lifts in a power rack or on a machine. A half-assed set is worse than no set at all--at least unless it's a warm-up.

 

[Speedo Racer]

A review of the literature might prove otherwise. You can try Powers, Scott "Exercise Physiology, 3rd Edition by Brown and Benchmark, 1997 pg 401. or another trusted reference is UC Berkeley's Brooks, George A. et. al, 1996.

 

[Blood&Iron]

It's quite possible you're right, but as late as 1999, Lyle McDonald, the man I most respect in the field of exercise and nutrition, stated he was unaware of any positive correlation between DOMS and hypertrophy(He could well have changed his opinion on this though) Further, well-trained individuals very rarely experience significant muscle soreness, while beginners and individuals who have taken a long layoff from training will frequently experience soreness from relatively light work and even from stretching. At this point I very rarely suffer any soreness at all from lifting and yet continue to add muscle. As a beginner, however, I was nearly unable to move for several days after my workouts. So from my experience DOMS is simply not a reliable indicator of growth.

 

[Madd Hatter]

Thanks for the replies.

So should I forget the free weights since I can't max and just use machines? That somewhat goes against what I've been led to believe.

 

[Blood&Iron]

Thanks for the replies.

So should I forget the free weights since I can't max and just use machines? That somewhat goes against what I've been led to believe.

Either find someone to spot your or yes, switch to machines--or as I said doing your lifts in a power rack. Some will argue free weights are superior, which is a whole different issue, but if you are not working hard I think the whole issue becomes moot. If your not at least approaching momentary muscular failure I think you will not see nearly the results you might otherwise achieve.

 

[Bullit]

Madd - Ive only been at it for 3 months (so I'm no expert), but Ive noticed significant increases in size, and strength. I know that I may not be doing it the 'best' way, but I'm gonna keep doing this until I start to plateau.
I'm doing a full upper body workout twice a week (Mon and Thurs) with legs on Sat. I'm just keeping it simple with 3 sets of:
chest: Flat Bench, Incline bench
Back: Pulldown, seated rows
Shoulder: military press, lateral raises
Bis: curls
tris: rope pulldown
I use the same weight for all sets until I can do 9,9,7.
Like I said... it may not be the best system, but I am definitely getting results.

oh yeah - i do 30 min cardio 3 times a week