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muscle breakdwn on keto diets?
- Thread starter missyd143
- Start date
Bikini Mod
New member
Unless you are on A/S YES you will lose some lean body mass.
Why would you want to lose "quickly anyway"? Why not take the fat off SLOWLY, preserve your mass and have the fat off LONGTERM?!
Is it me or are you the one who asked about a tummytuck on the diet board? If I am wrong, I will SHUT THE FUCK UP.
Why would you want to lose "quickly anyway"? Why not take the fat off SLOWLY, preserve your mass and have the fat off LONGTERM?!
Is it me or are you the one who asked about a tummytuck on the diet board? If I am wrong, I will SHUT THE FUCK UP.
N
new@gettinbig
Guest
Anything quick is NOT permanent!! DO it a healthy way, that will last....Bmom is right..you will lose muscle if you are not on AS, and a keto diet is not a great choice...You plan on eating a keto diet the rest of your life?? Its not a realistic lifestyle! Do something sensible and realistic.
Keto is great for "quick" weight loss. You lose many, many pounds in the first two weeks due to carb depletion and associated fluid loss. The fat loss is not dramatically different to a low carb cycling diet of the same calories. Coming off a keto diet, especially an extreme "quick" one, is hazardous to a female figure!! Coming of any quick weight loss diet is hazardous for that matter. It needs to be done gradually with small increases in carb intake.
You will lose muscle on any diet that gets you lean. As long as your protein is kept high I don't think there's any dramatic difference in muscle loss between CKD and more traditional moderate carb high protein diets. The one advantage of keto diets is that many folks find that appetite is not as big of a problem.
You will lose muscle on any diet that gets you lean. As long as your protein is kept high I don't think there's any dramatic difference in muscle loss between CKD and more traditional moderate carb high protein diets. The one advantage of keto diets is that many folks find that appetite is not as big of a problem.
I would disagree MS. A keto diet, because of the demands it places on the body to come up with glucose from protein breakdown would result in greater muscle loss, regardless of protein intake.
Would make a good study, in fact I thought I saw something recent on that in the lit. I have to look.
W6
Would make a good study, in fact I thought I saw something recent on that in the lit. I have to look.
W6
i agree with u ....i think its not that easy to lose bodyfat by eating all fat n protein..i mean if it worked everyone be having a heart problem~ all that fat n cholseterol!! i mean if u want to lose fat the right way it takes time with cardio and weighttraing with some (but not toomuch) carbs! carbs are important but they SHOULD be limited not down to 0 carbs//the body likes to hold onto fat when famished...you can loose mucle and and fat on this....the only way is eating less calories or else its muscle or water weight that you lost.....and ayone agree on this and the cardio craze ?
Hoffmeister
New member
Actually, one of the main purported benefits of keto diets is that they are MORE muscle sparing than other diets.
I'd have to dig up references, but there are studies that seem to demonstrate this. Lyle Mcdonald quoted many in his book, but since has stated he believed they were flawed, due to inadequate protein intake.
Don't get me wrong. Personally, I don't like keto diets. I think they are marginally better at sparing muscle, just not enough to worry about. And I get a very bad rebound when coming off.
I'd have to dig up references, but there are studies that seem to demonstrate this. Lyle Mcdonald quoted many in his book, but since has stated he believed they were flawed, due to inadequate protein intake.
Don't get me wrong. Personally, I don't like keto diets. I think they are marginally better at sparing muscle, just not enough to worry about. And I get a very bad rebound when coming off.
Wilson6, it would be great if you could post any info along those lines. Certainly I was referring to a CKD where weight training is only done when muscles are super compensated with glycogen from a regular high carb/low fat refeed. I would not recommend a straight, full time keto diet (eg Atkin's) for anyone wishing to retain LBM. And I personally even foung the CKD to suck. I lost fat (no more or less than a more normal BB diet), but the fat came back with a rebound, and I felt sick the whole time I was on the diet. But I have noticed that some folks respond better to CKD than others. I don't like it in theory because it's grossly imbalanced in terms of nutrients, and it encourages bad eating habits IMHO.
Whole eggs are an ideal food on any sort of keto diet. If you're gonna try a keto diet I would suggest you get as much of you cals as you can from whole eggs, nut and seed oils, oily fish and lean chicken, cottage cheese. Red meat, chees and bacon in moderation. In other words, keep the sat fats in control and boost the unsats. And include lots of high fiber low cal foods such as celery, lettuce, mushrooms.
Whole eggs are an ideal food on any sort of keto diet. If you're gonna try a keto diet I would suggest you get as much of you cals as you can from whole eggs, nut and seed oils, oily fish and lean chicken, cottage cheese. Red meat, chees and bacon in moderation. In other words, keep the sat fats in control and boost the unsats. And include lots of high fiber low cal foods such as celery, lettuce, mushrooms.
I eat free range eggs when I can get 'em cheap enough. I also eat dairy from non-cow sources such as goat and sheep cheeses. But my advice was more general since most if not all folks contemplating a keto diet are omnivirous. My keto diet was extremely bland with the exception of my last meal each day....Large salad with crumbed sheep's feta, olives, lettuce, celery, spring onions, mushrooms and a lemon/garlic avocado oil dressing. The rest of the day was eggs, soy protein, a little peanut butter and a lot of oil! WhoooHoooo. No wonder I lost my appetite?
wilson6 said:
Sorry W6, but thats just another urban legend.
After the intial Ketogenic phase where bllod glucose
levels drop below 50mg/dl, you start to burn
90%fat/10% protein metabolically.
After 3 weeks on the Keto diet, the body becomes
MORE efficient at.producing Ketones and
the fat% urned metabolically goes up to
93%.
The amount of protein required is 150g/day or 1g/lb(
whichever is more) to minimize any muscle
loss.
This amount can actually be DECREASED to 93g/day
after 3 weeks in order more fat to be
consumed and more fat lost.
Ketones are also metabolically inefficient and yield
a 23% energetic inefficiency compared to normal
fatty acids(triglycerides)
Ketones are after all OXIDIZED fatty acids.
This means that for ANY calorid deficit, a KETOGENIC
diet will create a 23% bigger deficitt than a normal
diet with the same caloric deficit.
I believe I got in a discussion with Mr. X regarding the
same topic.
Fonz
Keto diets are all well and fine in theory (like many other concepts). In reality a very high fiber (=moderate carbs from mainly fibrous veggies and whole grains) high protein diet is just as economical IMHO because the large fiber and protein intake also equate to decreased caloric efficiency (like you state for ketone inefficiencsy). In other words a high fiber diet most certainly increases the non-absorption of fat, carbs AND protein. You eat lots, feel very full, but absorb less calories than you actually consume. Large fecal mass and rapid transit is an added bonus!
I also seem to recall that pure mixed protein is around 20-25% metabolically inefficient........
To bring things out of the theoretical and in to reality, I don't know of ANY bodybuilders who have cut well on a straight (3 weeks plus) keto diet without a carb up, and I don't know of any clinical studies that looked at a CKD or TKD. If any of you know of any (other than anecdotal or theoretical) studies that address these specific diets than I am extremely interested to hear about them.
I will say that obese subjects fair MUCH better on a full on keto diet than bodybuilders, and I think this is where a lot of dietary confusion comes in on these boards. When you are obese, any caloric deficit will hit mostly fat stores first. An Atkin's style diet is better than no diet or a diet you won't stick to. Below ~20%BF (15%BF for males) you have to think about your diet and training a lot more carefully if your aim is to preserve LBM while losing fat. In this case you've absolutely gotta have carbs, whether it be a day or two at the weekends, a TKD, or a low GI carb cycling method.
I also seem to recall that pure mixed protein is around 20-25% metabolically inefficient........
To bring things out of the theoretical and in to reality, I don't know of ANY bodybuilders who have cut well on a straight (3 weeks plus) keto diet without a carb up, and I don't know of any clinical studies that looked at a CKD or TKD. If any of you know of any (other than anecdotal or theoretical) studies that address these specific diets than I am extremely interested to hear about them.
I will say that obese subjects fair MUCH better on a full on keto diet than bodybuilders, and I think this is where a lot of dietary confusion comes in on these boards. When you are obese, any caloric deficit will hit mostly fat stores first. An Atkin's style diet is better than no diet or a diet you won't stick to. Below ~20%BF (15%BF for males) you have to think about your diet and training a lot more carefully if your aim is to preserve LBM while losing fat. In this case you've absolutely gotta have carbs, whether it be a day or two at the weekends, a TKD, or a low GI carb cycling method.
Hoffmeister
New member
Fonz:
Any real "metabolic inefficiency" derived from keto diets occurs ONLY during the the first 2-3 weeks. After that, it's back to basically a calorie issue.
From Lyle Mcdonald:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...1379380249&[email protected]#link17
Any real "metabolic inefficiency" derived from keto diets occurs ONLY during the the first 2-3 weeks. After that, it's back to basically a calorie issue.
From Lyle Mcdonald:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...1379380249&[email protected]#link17
Hoffmeister
New member
Hmm. That seems logical, but here's another post by Lyle that seems to be applying the same 3 week adaptation to CKD's as well:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...1379380249&[email protected]#link17
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...1379380249&[email protected]#link17
MS, I just want to clarify what you have said in that a moderate carb high protein diet is just as efficient if not more that the Keto diets.
I think that my body also responds after a keto diet by adding more fat in disporportional places. It works more like a sponge and it is very hard to ease back into a regular diet.
I really would like more of your input on your experience with carb cycling as I am now trying that. Can you give me a sample for about a week if you have time?
Mrs. TG
I think that my body also responds after a keto diet by adding more fat in disporportional places. It works more like a sponge and it is very hard to ease back into a regular diet.
I really would like more of your input on your experience with carb cycling as I am now trying that. Can you give me a sample for about a week if you have time?
Mrs. TG
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