muscle breakdwn on keto diets?

[MS]

I eat free range eggs when I can get 'em cheap enough. I also eat dairy from non-cow sources such as goat and sheep cheeses. But my advice was more general since most if not all folks contemplating a keto diet are omnivirous. My keto diet was extremely bland with the exception of my last meal each day....Large salad with crumbed sheep's feta, olives, lettuce, celery, spring onions, mushrooms and a lemon/garlic avocado oil dressing. The rest of the day was eggs, soy protein, a little peanut butter and a lot of oil! WhoooHoooo. No wonder I lost my appetite?

 

[Fonz]

I would disagree MS. A keto diet, because of the demands it places on the body to come up with glucose from protein breakdown would result in greater muscle loss, regardless of protein intake.

Would make a good study, in fact I thought I saw something recent on that in the lit. I have to look.

W6

Sorry W6, but thats just another urban legend.

After the intial Ketogenic phase where bllod glucose
levels drop below 50mg/dl, you start to burn
90%fat/10% protein metabolically.

After 3 weeks on the Keto diet, the body becomes
MORE efficient at.producing Ketones and
the fat% urned metabolically goes up to
93%.

The amount of protein required is 150g/day or 1g/lb(
whichever is more) to minimize any muscle
loss.
This amount can actually be DECREASED to 93g/day
after 3 weeks in order more fat to be
consumed and more fat lost.

Ketones are also metabolically inefficient and yield
a 23% energetic inefficiency compared to normal
fatty acids(triglycerides)
Ketones are after all OXIDIZED fatty acids.

This means that for ANY calorid deficit, a KETOGENIC
diet will create a 23% bigger deficitt than a normal
diet with the same caloric deficit.

I believe I got in a discussion with Mr. X regarding the
same topic.

Fonz

 

[MS]

Keto diets are all well and fine in theory (like many other concepts). In reality a very high fiber (=moderate carbs from mainly fibrous veggies and whole grains) high protein diet is just as economical IMHO because the large fiber and protein intake also equate to decreased caloric efficiency (like you state for ketone inefficiencsy). In other words a high fiber diet most certainly increases the non-absorption of fat, carbs AND protein. You eat lots, feel very full, but absorb less calories than you actually consume. Large fecal mass and rapid transit is an added bonus!

I also seem to recall that pure mixed protein is around 20-25% metabolically inefficient........

To bring things out of the theoretical and in to reality, I don't know of ANY bodybuilders who have cut well on a straight (3 weeks plus) keto diet without a carb up, and I don't know of any clinical studies that looked at a CKD or TKD. If any of you know of any (other than anecdotal or theoretical) studies that address these specific diets than I am extremely interested to hear about them.

I will say that obese subjects fair MUCH better on a full on keto diet than bodybuilders, and I think this is where a lot of dietary confusion comes in on these boards. When you are obese, any caloric deficit will hit mostly fat stores first. An Atkin's style diet is better than no diet or a diet you won't stick to. Below ~20%BF (15%BF for males) you have to think about your diet and training a lot more carefully if your aim is to preserve LBM while losing fat. In this case you've absolutely gotta have carbs, whether it be a day or two at the weekends, a TKD, or a low GI carb cycling method.

 

[Hoffmeister]

Fonz:

Any real "metabolic inefficiency" derived from keto diets occurs ONLY during the the first 2-3 weeks. After that, it's back to basically a calorie issue.

From Lyle Mcdonald:

Ketones are only used to even a marginal degree by non-brain tissues for the first 2-3 weeks of the diet. So any increased fat loss (as a function of ketone inefficiency) would only show up during that time period. Beyond ~3 weeks, the brain (which was using glucose at 4 cal/gram) is the only tissue using ketones (at 4.5 cal/g) so there is very little 'ketone inefficiency' to be seen.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...1379380249&[email protected]#link17

 

[Fonz]

Hmmmm...interesting post Hoffmeinster.

But, the excerpt is in reference to a NORMAL
ketogenic diet NOT a CKD where metabolic
adaptations take far longer.

Fonz

 

[Hoffmeister]

Hmm. That seems logical, but here's another post by Lyle that seems to be applying the same 3 week adaptation to CKD's as well:

I could make some handwaving arguments for why there may be a slight
caloric inefficiency during the first 3 weeks of a ketogenic diet that
might be contributing (I and others have noted that fat loss in the
first week or two of a keto/CKD seems to be higher than what would be
expected based on calories alone).

But if that advantage does truly exist, it's gone after 3 weeks. A
bigger question (that I still have not answered) is whether it might be
possible to use that advantage (again, if it exists) in some way. The
unanswered question is just how long you have to be off of a keto diet
to get the same inefficiency to occur again. I still have no idea.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...1379380249&[email protected]#link17

 

[Texas Guns]

MS, I just want to clarify what you have said in that a moderate carb high protein diet is just as efficient if not more that the Keto diets.

I think that my body also responds after a keto diet by adding more fat in disporportional places. It works more like a sponge and it is very hard to ease back into a regular diet.

I really would like more of your input on your experience with carb cycling as I am now trying that. Can you give me a sample for about a week if you have time?

Mrs. TG