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Low T at 18? Please help.

A

ashechtman

New member
Hey guys, at age 16 my T levels are about 220. I then made the stupidest decision of my life to run epistane at 16. I ran it for about 4 weeks and 40mg-50mg. I then used clomid as my pct but it made me horribly depressed so I stopped it after like 5 days. I then used ostarine off and on for the next year thinking it was non suppressive. I then got my T levels tested again and they were about 110. I immediately stopped the ostarine and hopped on clomid again, this time for about 3 weeks (couldn't tolerate it for any longer than that). I got my T levels tested on clomid and they were at 400. I then stayed off everything for about 5-6 months and got my T levels tested again, they were back at around 220, my LH was 1.0. I told my doctor about everything and he suggested I go on TRT so I'm now on testim at 2 tubes per day.

My question to you guys: Am I screwed up due to the PH/SARMS or do I have legitimate hypogonadism. Should I stay on TRT, or try another PCT. I guess the key facts here are that my T was 220 at age 16 before everything, and after being clean for about 6 months they were back to 220.

Please don't flame me, I know I fucked up BAD.
 
a lot of times doctors will put people on Testim when its not even necessary.

this may or may not be one of those instances. of course he is gonna push you in that direction as that is more money in his pocket. one of the examples of incompetence in the medical field and why you should always get more than 1 opinion.. this is something you need to really think about, you are gonna be on for life and its gonna affect your ability to ever have kids or have normal sized balls.. worst of all you are throwing away your bodies own ability as a man to create testosterone on its own
 
I'm aware but my doctor is actually a GREAT guy. He's a urologist who specializes in TRT and he's very knowledgable. Before we began testim he had me put sperm in a cryobank. He said he wanted to do this just in case hcg doesn't work in restoring my fertility in the future when I want kids. He checks my bloods all the time to make sure all hormones are good, dhea dht e2 and everything. He has me donating blood to reduce hematocrit. He said I can switch to injections if I wanted and that I can do twice a week like people suggest. He really is great. In fact his first suggestion was to put me on clomid because he's aware that that is Wht steroid users use in pct but I told him I already tried that.
 
^^^
oh i bet he wants to switch you to injections.. this way he can charge your mommy's insurance for doctor visits on top of it. sounds like you trust this guy way too much.. you are only 18.. when i was your age I was chasing pussy trying to get laid and working to put myself through college.. i never had any desire to touch hormones nor did i worry what my T levels were at.. i just lived my life.. now we got 18 year olds going on HRT!!

if you want my advice fire this idiot.. get off testim and stop being a little bitch obsessing over all this .. hit the weight room, start eating healthy, put down the Atari or whatever you kids play these days and get off the couch and get active.. your T levels will easily double and triple if you did that.... its not the advice you want to hear but thats my advice man. if you want a naive answer i'm sure someone else will chime in and give it to you
 
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So do you guys think I'm legitimately just hypo gonadal or am I still fucked up and suppressed from the osta and epi
 
Are you fucking kidding me? This guy went to college with my parents and they are great friends. He didn't even charge me for the cryobanking, why do you feel the need to call someone an idiot just because he's a doctor. Yeah most are idiots, my endocrinologist wanted to give me a 200mg test cyp injection once a month, no follow ups, no ai, no hcg, Now he's a fucking moron. My urologist truly wants to help me he isn't just about the money trust me on this one. How bout instead of shitting on my doctor and releasing all your built up anger on some guy on the Internet who just wants help, you try and answer my questions...
 
And no he doesn't want to switch me to injections, I want to switch to injections because I don't think I'm absorbing the gel well. And I'm in college now so I'll be doing the injections myself, no doctor visits. Also I've been working out seriously since 15, I'm not a skinny little bitch playing video games you moron. I eat a shit load of good food, tons of protein fat carbs fruit and veggies. I get a shit load of sleep. My t levels are still low. My libido has sucked all my life, not every teenager has fucking sky high testosterone just because you were fucking perfect chasing pussy and working out hard doesn't mean everyone else is you fucking asshole.
 
Why don't you ask your doctor then since he is so smart.... Steve gave you solid advice. What the fuck do you think was going to happen messing with hormones at 16 years old! Hope you are one jacked mother fucker right now....
 
I'm gonna move this to the life extension section as a favor... can't have teens posting in AAS..

also please if you want advice lose the attitude. just cause you don't get the answer you want to hear doesn't mean you need to start throwing a hissy fit .. if you don't want my advice then don't take it.

doctors don't know anything about hormones. urologists typically put guys on HRT because they can, not because its the best decision.. you are right I fucking hate doctors because 99% of the time they are wrong. the fact this guy is friends with your family is an even bigger red flag that you are gonna trust him, you never take 1 doctors advice and run with it.. always get multiple advice.

I haven't been to a doctor in 5+ years .. i have no use for them unless i need one to cut something out of me. I do my own bloodwork and I order my own RX drugs online.
 
Read your own post and you'll see where my attitude came from. I didn't get angry because I didn't get the answer I wanted, it's because you completely generalized and stereotyped both me and my doctor. You make it sound like having a t level of 220 at age 18 is fine, and that all I need to do is "hit the weights" and eat right. Well I've been doing that and it hasn't done shit. Man I thought if I did a proper pct I would be fine but clearly not. Can someone please just answer my question, do you think doing another pct would help? Or am I fully recovered and just back to my low t baseline.
 
ashechtman said:
Read your own post and you'll see where my attitude came from. I didn't get angry because I didn't get the answer I wanted, it's because you completely generalized and stereotyped both me and my doctor. You make it sound like having a t level of 220 at age 18 is fine, and that all I need to do is "hit the weights" and eat right. Well I've been doing that and it hasn't done shit. Man I thought if I did a proper pct I would be fine but clearly not. Can someone please just answer my question, do you think doing another pct would help? Or am I fully recovered and just back to my low t baseline.
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actually i see it all the time these days. its because teens spend too much time in front of the tv and video games.. and eating shitty.. also its environmental stuff, its mental/depression. there are a lot of reasons.. you can actually increase your T levels as you age. I have higher T levels today than I did in my mid 20's cause my lifestyle is cleaner.. the only reason you even know about it is cause you ran bloods, 99% of teens don't run hormone panels hence they have no clue.. i bet if your friends in high school all ran them half of them would have 'low T' also

if you run another pct you will get a temporary bump but then come back down. here is where your doctor misled you. even with bodybuilders who run pct's they get a temporary bounce during pct, but it is up to the body to recover on its own in the end. thats why your doctor is a fucking idiot for giving you clomid. you said you got depressed running it.. well thats what clomid does.. it will turn you into a bitch
 
Listen to your doctor man.I would not worry about not being able to make testosterone on your own since you didn't make much in the first place when it should have been climbing at that age and unless you are gay not walking around wanting to bone every hot chick is definitely a sign something is wrong at that age.most steroid users always think they are the only one who should be using and everyone else just needs to change there diet and workout routine.although here your age is what everyone has trouble digesting.your using a legitimate doctor though to fix a medical problem though so you're g2g and I would definitely switch to injections f that gel.

Sent from my SPH-M830 using EliteFitness
 
dositmaderbro said:
Listen to your doctor man.I would not worry about not being able to make testosterone on your own since you didn't make much in the first place when it should have been climbing at that age and unless you are gay not walking around wanting to bone every hot chick is definitely a sign something is wrong at that age.most steroid users always think they are the only one who should be using and everyone else just needs to change there diet and workout routine.although here your age is what everyone has trouble digesting.your using a legitimate doctor though to fix a medical problem though so you're g2g and I would definitely switch to injections f that gel.

Sent from my SPH-M830 using EliteFitness
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its a pretty bold statement assuming that going on HRT is gonna fix his problems, he already stated in his earlier post he also has depression and other issues even with the gel. its not a guarantee that its gonna solve his problems and make him want to bone every chick.. there are dudes running a gram of test a week who still have libido problems.

also I didn't even touch steroids till I was 30.. i lifted 15 years without them even as a competitive powerlifter depending on my diet and my workouts only. so no I am not bullshitting when i tell people workouts and diet can boost T levels.. it worked for me and I am living proof .. this is simple science
 
But were your levels consistently around 200 ages 16-18? I'm not depressed on the gel, I definitely feel better than before but still not where I think I should be. I know its impossible to tell without bloods but i'm guessing i'm in the high 300's low 400's atm on testim. Man I just don't know wtf to do.
 
ashechtman said:
Read your own post and you'll see where my attitude came from. I didn't get angry because I didn't get the answer I wanted, it's because you completely generalized and stereotyped both me and my doctor. You make it sound like having a t level of 220 at age 18 is fine, and that all I need to do is "hit the weights" and eat right. Well I've been doing that and it hasn't done shit. Man I thought if I did a proper pct I would be fine but clearly not. Can someone please just answer my question, do you think doing another pct would help? Or am I fully recovered and just back to my low t baseline.
Click to expand...

Were you suffering any symptoms of Low T?
 
Yes, no libido, no morning wood, no motivation to work out, tired, no progress in the gym, decreasing strength, occasional depression, no random erections, no acne, lack of oily skin.
 
ashechtman said:
If you guys think a pct would be pointless then I guess i'll just stay on TRT.
Click to expand...

well i have reservations about ever recommending HRT to a teenager unless its absolutely necessary

and with that list of symptoms you wrote i can 100% guarantee you that you aren't gonna magically cure those problems just by going on HRT for life. i play poker with a bunch of old farts and all of them are on HRT, and none of them workout, and they all have beer bellies. it takes more than HRT to live a good lifestyle.

give it 6 months on the HRT and then if you feel better than stick with it otherwise i would abandon it and try and fix things on your own without hormones.

there are some great natty supplements out there that you can take which will not suppress you .. phyto-serms is clinically shown to raise your T levels up to 350% naturally.
 
I know it isn't a magic drug. I still need to keep my diet clean, lift heavy, an get a lot of sleep. But as I said I already do that, and I don't drink alcohol. I've tried the natty supps and they never worked for me. I tried DAA/Erase, didn't do anything except for the DAA ripping me a new asshole. Well, the erase worked and lowered my e2 but the stack did nothing for raises my T. I tried hcgenerate, didn't do bloods while on that but I noticed absolutely no effects from it whatsoever. Tried bulgarian tribulus out of desperation (I know it was shown not to do anything). Tried zma, but i'm not zinc deficient so it didn't do anything. I looked into phytoserm 347 but bulbine was only tested in rats and I don't trust rat studies.
 
ashechtman said:
I know it isn't a magic drug. I still need to keep my diet clean, lift heavy, an get a lot of sleep. But as I said I already do that, and I don't drink alcohol. I've tried the natty supps and they never worked for me. I tried DAA/Erase, didn't do anything except for the DAA ripping me a new asshole. Well, the erase worked and lowered my e2 but the stack did nothing for raises my T. I tried hcgenerate, didn't do bloods while on that but I noticed absolutely no effects from it whatsoever. Tried bulgarian tribulus out of desperation (I know it was shown not to do anything). Tried zma, but i'm not zinc deficient so it didn't do anything. I looked into phytoserm 347 but bulbine was only tested in rats and I don't trust rat studies.
Click to expand...

How would you rate how you feel physically? Do you sleep deeply and through the night? Do you often have bouts of diarhea or constipation? Any gas, bloating etc? Do you get regular headaches? Do you find that your moody? Do you have problems concentrating etc?

There could be underlying issues throwing off your hormone levels.
 
I don't have any of the symptoms you said except for moodiness. I've gotten my thyroid checked multiple times and its been fine for the most part. I also got a GnRH and ACTH stim test a little while back and my baseline morning cortisol levels were on the high end of normal. I believe the ref range was <25 and i was at 24.
 
Youre not still messed up from epistane lol. You just have low T. If you don't mind pinning for the rest of your life then get on TRT. you will be a much happier person
 
That's what I figured, thanks for the reassuring me. However, epistane definitely wasn't mild on me. Pre epi T was 220, after 1 week on epi 40mg my t went down to 63, pre epi hdl was 42, 1 week on epi my hdl went down to 8. My blood pressure also sky rocketed. Liver enzymes were also highly elevated. Ostarine wasn't too mild either. Man I learned my lesson, kids don't touch any performance enhancing drug, PH/AAS/SARMS.

The only thing is, my GnRH stim test said that my pituitary and testes function fine in response to LHRH, therefore my hypothalamus just isnt making enough GnRH, which seems to be very rare. I thought all if not most cases of hypogonadism originated in the pituitary or testes.
 
By the way, I called up my doctor and said the 2 tubes of testim aren't cutting it, so I got bloods done today to see where i'm at. I'll let you guys know what the results are. Once we get the results back he'll switch me to test cyp.
 
ashechtman said:
That's what I figured, thanks for the reassuring me. However, epistane definitely wasn't mild on me. Pre epi T was 220, after 1 week on epi 40mg my t went down to 63, pre epi hdl was 42, 1 week on epi my hdl went down to 8. My blood pressure also sky rocketed. Liver enzymes were also highly elevated. Ostarine wasn't too mild either. Man I learned my lesson, kids don't touch any performance enhancing drug, PH/AAS/SARMS.

The only thing is, my GnRH stim test said that my pituitary and testes function fine in response to LHRH, therefore my hypothalamus just isnt making enough GnRH, which seems to be very rare. I thought all if not most cases of hypogonadism originated in the pituitary or testes.
Click to expand...
I also ran epi at 16 or 17 for 2 weeks or something the shut down wouldnt last till now. You recover much easier at a younger age anyway. And I agree kids shouldnt touch drugs, unless they have a good chance at excelling in a sport using them.
 
ashechtman said:
By the way, I called up my doctor and said the 2 tubes of testim aren't cutting it, so I got bloods done today to see where i'm at. I'll let you guys know what the results are. Once we get the results back he'll switch me to test cyp.
Click to expand...

Good choice
 
Steve, I have to agree with you 100% on a lifestyle change. I'm living proof as well.

I was an NCAA D-1 defensive lineman who let themselves go. I ballooned up to almost 350lbs before finding EF. I changed my diet, gym routine, and lifestyle. Long story short, thanks to guys like Steve, Radar, Dylan, Needto (the list goes on), and after dropping 120lbs, today at 41 my T levels are HIGHER naturally than when I was in my 20's!

I never cycled until I was 38, and had no need to. I'm thankful to everyone here that helped me, wether I liked their advice or not. Ash, this really is a great group here, especially the vets. While you may not like what they say, they really do have solid advice AND your best interests in mind.
 
Only thing I'm worried about with the injections vs the gel is that the injections don't seem to raise dht enough. Any thoughts/comments?
 
ashechtman said:
Only thing I'm worried about with the injections vs the gel is that the injections don't seem to raise dht enough. Any thoughts/comments?
Click to expand...

Is this based on your personal experience or research? The reason I ask is I dont think I have ever heard anyone on TRT complain their DHT was too low.
 
Ok bloods just came back, I'm so confused. On 2 tubes of testim, it said my testosterone was 1073 and my estradiol was 27...Sounds perfect right? I got bloods done about 1-2 hours after application. I've been on the 2 tubes of testim for a few weeks now and I don't notice anything. My libido is still low, my energy is pretty bad, my skin isn't very oily, no random boners, morning wood once in a while. In fact, at times I seem to be lethargic. I don't know whether or not to stay on the testim or switch to test cyp injections. Any help fellas?
 
I had read that putting the gel on the same arm used during the blood draw can alter the results. Anyone know if this is true? I know the day of I made sure to not put it on near the blood draw site but the preceeding days I may have.
 
I'm going to say it doesn't matter. It's a hormone that's systemic in the blood, and it's not going to miraculously all collect in one spot.

That number is WAY higher than a TRT dose should be (over all), so I'm guessing that was probably close to, if not a peak level. Am I correct that that's a Total Testosterone Serum figure? What was your Free Testosterone figure? If that was low, that could very well be your problem.
 
Yes that was my total testosterone, my free testosterone I don't have the number but my doctor said it was also high above the reference range I believe. Also that was definitely a peak value considering it was about 2 hours after application.
 
My shbg is on the low end of normal, I think that's the problem. I'm well aware that low shbg makes gels pretty useless but how about injections?
 
ashechtman said:
Shbg was 13, ref range is 10-50. Could that be the problem?
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There's something missing from your story. Not flaming... just need more info!

Firstly... why did you have your test level drawn at 16? This isn't standard practice for that age group. This leads me to believe that you had symptoms of hypogonadism or a similar affliction. If this test was done by a doctor, then why wasn't it investigated further back then? Did you have any other labs drawn then?

Secondly... Your recent stim test alluded to a possible hypothalamus deficiency. Did you have labs for the rest of the pituitary, or just the 2 stim tests? Are you getting more labs or a MRI of the pituitary/hypothalamus?

Lastly... your TT is at or near the upper limit. Not horrible, but not really TRT values either. Elevated FT... how high though? Low/lower SHBG will equate to higher FT levels. With TRT, it's a big game of trial and error to get things dialed in.

Ok... this is last... I'm still bothered by the fact you had values drawn at 16. You have no answers as to why you were low. You are now on TRT with limited improvement. I would be highly suspect of other pituitary insufficiencies. If you are cool with this doc, have him put you through the ringer! Get B12, iron, vitamin D, etc drawn also.

Good luck!
 
ashechtman said:
Shbg was 13, ref range is 10-50. Could that be the problem?
Click to expand...

I do8bt thats the whole problem but its not helping.

The reason I asked my earlier questions is because at your age low T is very unlikely unless there were other underlying problems. mineral deficiency, intestinal pathogens etc which lead to systemic inflammation and poor functioning of adrenals, thyroid etc etc.

I would ditch the general doc and look for a doc who practices function medicine.
 
Sorry for the delay, I'll answer all your questions now.
1) I was having symptoms, no energy, low motivation, hard time building muscle, put on fat way too easily, no hair anywhere, no morning wood, low libido, decreased bone density as verified by a bone density scan. It wasn't further investigated because I was 16 and my endo said I'm probably just a late bloomer (my dad was).

2) At 16 I got an MRI of my pituitary/brain and everything was fine, except for the fact that my pituitary itself was much smaller than normal.
3) In terms of labs and other body systems... My morning cortisol was tested to be normal, but in the high end of the normal range (blood sample, not salivary). My TSH has always hovered a little high, around 3.1-3.9. Now before you say "you're hypothyroid", my free T4, free T3, reverse T3, antithyroid antibodies, have always been normal, and I have no symptoms of low thyroid. In fact, I have HEAT intolerance, lol.
4) My mom is into functional medicine and has always attacked me in that approach. I take plenty of vitamin D, fish oils, a good bioactive multi, etc... Oh and my DHEA levels has always been very good.

By the way, I ditched my original doctor (the endo that has been following everything), because when he decided to put me on testosterone, his only protocol was for him to do a 400mg injection once a month. I walked out the door when he said that. I'm now seeing a VERY good urologist who is treating me.

Follow up: He currently has me on 60mg test cyp e3d. He had me put sperm in a cryobank just in case a clomid/hcg restart doesn't work in the future. At the moment, no AI or HCG, he says he'll add those in if needed. I feel great since switching from the testim to the test cyp. I don't know why but I have loads of energy, morning wood, finally horny, and oily skin. I think my skin was absorbing the testim too fast, causing a spike a few hours after application and a very low trough for most of the day.

Hope that answers all your questions.
 
no one has brung up the fact that you could just be entering puberty later than your peers.

did you know that once you start puberty your T levels are actually supposed to be 'low' .. i am talking about levels around 100-150.

not everyone matures the same way ... I started growing a mustache at 10 years old.. i was shaving by 13 my face. i was growing chest hair at freaking 12 years old. i matured earlier than my peers. i remember some kids even late in high school hadn't even grown facial hair yet or were shaving.

some guys take into their early 20's to finish puberty.. i've seen it and you could be one of those
 
I think I may just stay on TRT for a few years, then maybe try a clomid restart when I'm like 20 or 21 to see if I'm in fact a late bloomer. What do you think of that?
 
ashechtman said:
I think I may just stay on TRT for a few years, then maybe try a clomid restart when I'm like 20 or 21 to see if I'm in fact a late bloomer. What do you think of that?
Click to expand...

I think that's a really stupid idea
 
Haha thanks for the honest opinion. How come though? I've been having symptoms of low T for a while now and my endo and urologist both say its a little late to pull the "late bloomer" card. They think if that was the case my T would be much higher at age 18. I agree, a T level of 200 and LH of 1 at 18 is certainly not normal...
 
I've been reading that hypothyroidism can cause delayed puberty and low shbg, which makes me think that COULD be the main issue here. And my TSH has always hovered a little high 3.1-3.9. However, I have no symptoms of hypothyroidism and my free t3, free t4, reverse t3, and thyroid antibodies are all normal. My body temperature reaches 98.6 by the afternoon, I can't stand the heat, no goiter ( I don't think). Also, I absorbed the testim, which wouldn't be the case if I was hypothyroid. What do you guys think of that.
 
probably because of your age???? have you not read Steve's posts??? jesus Christ man, what are you getting yourself into? your doctors an idiot...plain and simple, I don't care if hes a family friend...hes an IDIOT...I didn't even know what Test was when I was your age, its all in your head...you need to quit worrying all of this and live your life like a regular 18 year old...this thread pisses me off
 
wootoom said:
probably because of your age???? have you not read Steve's posts??? jesus Christ man, what are you getting yourself into? your doctors an idiot...plain and simple, I don't care if hes a family friend...hes an IDIOT...I didn't even know what Test was when I was your age, its all in your head...you need to quit worrying all of this and live your life like a regular 18 year old...this thread pisses me off
Click to expand...

Thats the problem with the medical institution these days. Its so much easier to just toss a script at something and treat the symptom than it is to actually find out whats wrong.

I think there is clearly something else going on to have low T at 18 and there is likely a good possibility it could be fixed with proper supplementation and ruling out parasites, but that all takes time and money.
 
How can you possibly say its all in my head. I had symptoms, T of 200 at 18 is definitely nowhere near normal, everything else is fine. I've been lifting for a while, I don't overtrain, I'm not obese, my diet is good, I'm already supplementing vitamin d3 etc... Nothing has budged over the past two years.
 
What is your diet like. Have you stopped training for a month or two then gotten blood work. I don't know if you realize the trouble you can be in to later in life if you get on trt at 18 man that's why everyone is trying to help you.
 
Breakfast is usually a big omelet with mushroom bacon brocolli ham, side of fruit, and whole wheat toast, lunch is usually a chicken and ham sandwhich with cheese veggies on whole wheat roll with milk, dinner is lots of either chicken, beef, fish, brocolli, spinach, sweet potato and milk, before bed is straight peanut butter. I eat a ton of food throughout the day, good food of course, no junk. I usually snack on almonds and fruit throughout the day. Yes I've gotten bloods done after stopping training for a few weeks.
 
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