ketogenic diets- advice please

[Max Expansion]

hey guys i want to drop like 10 pounds of stubborn fat

i am going to increase my cardio to 4 days a week- but diet wise i was wondering how helpful guys had found going into ketosis to be

i have a few questions.

1. is true ketosis (where you cut out almost all carbs) notably more effective than just low carb dieting.

2. is it true that you can eat as much protein as you want when in a state of ketosis

3. is it it a bad idea to have things like cheese when on ketosis, even though they dont contain carbs.

4. what can one take as a supplement for constipation and to increase dietry fibre, which wont effect the state of ketosis- (i was thinking along the lines of a fibre pill if such a thing existed)

5. what are peoples thoughts about artificial sweetners and diet soft drinks when in ketosis- will they slow down the fat loss

cheers guys to anyone who can help me out

 

[10001110101]

If you've never done ketosis, you are missing out. IMO, It is, hands down, THE most effective way to burn fat while sparing muscle, that being said, it has its drawbacks.

Drawback #1 - Working out loses all its flavor. Everything is a struggle in the gym and it pretty much takes all the joy out of working out. Training is tough even with a targeted ketogenic diet where pre and post workout carbs are allowed.

#2 - You will miss carbs.
#3 - You will not want to eat, will have zero appetite.
#4 - Leaves me feeling foggy and emotionally flat especially in the beginning.

That being said it is very effective, even for short periods of time. I'm ectomorphic but I do have some stubborn fat around my waist and love handle area that i was able to get rid of with ketosis in just 2 weeks (approx 7 pounds, strength was IMPROVED following ketosis).

here's some answers to your questions.

1. The type of ketogenic diet they use for epileptics is not recommended. That protocol calls for something like 92% of your calories to come from fats with 7% from protein, and <1% from carbs. Something like 80% fat cals and 20% protein is best for someone trying to spare muscle and burn fat.

2. Eating as much protein is not a good idea but you can eat as much meat as you want (red meat, bacon, fish, eggs, chicken anything that doesnt have carbs really (i.e, beef jerky). Like i said around 20% protein is good if you are trying to keep muscle and train while on the diet.

3. Cheese, now cheese supposedly doesn't have any carbs, but it actually does have a very small amount of lactose i believe. And for some reason it always reduces my level of ketosis when i eat it. Not to mention the fact that if you are prone, cheese will constipate you like nothing in this world. That being said I often crave cheese and do not limit my intake of it during ketosis.

4. I didn't end up needing any fiber for my first round of ketosis, but yes fiber pills do exist in chewable and pill form (metamucil makes one) and these are recommended as the drink mixes (i.e. citrucel, metamucil) have artificial sweetener, maltodextrin, and citric acid and will generally make you feel like shit during keto.

5. Artificial sweeteners, citric acid, etc. I wouldn't worry too much about them "slowing down" ketosis, they will temporarily reduce the amount of ketosis but it's not significant enough to affect your goals over a period of a couple weeks or more. You will avoid these things however, because aspartame can trigger the insulin response, and without any sugar being added to your bloodstream you will instantly feel the effects (no energy, mental fog). I only drink tea and water while in keto, once i had a diet cherry vanilla dr. pepper, never again. Also if you are trying to transition into ketosis, drinking diet drinks will only make everything much harder for you.

Cardio will be more difficult in ketosis, i recommend doing it for about 30 mins or so but reduce your resistance or speed (i.e. if you run on the treadmill at 6 mph reduce it to 5 or 4) because you won't have the same intensity, you can actually do lower intensity cardio for a longer period of time on keto however. Honestly I didn't even need to do cardio as much in keto, i only did it maybe 2x a week and had great results.

I recommend that you get Ketostix or an off-brand of ketone urinalysis strips, they will let you know if your diet is appropriate and what level of ketosis you are in, don't let the level bother you too much as it switches depending on whether or not you just ate a high fat meal etc. but use it to check periodically to make sure you are in ketosis. After you get used to the diet you can really tell whether your are in keto just by feel generally, but at first the strips help, but they are not 100 percent necessary.

Also if you are going to do it for more than 2 weeks, consider a targeted ketogenic diet (TKD) , or a cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD), both allow carbs at selected times to maintain workout intensity (somewhat) and your sanity. Search for them in the diet section on these boards you will find tons of info.

Hope this helps.

 

[timtim]

If you've never done ketosis, you are missing out. IMO, It is, hands down, THE most effective way to burn fat while sparing muscle, that being said, it has its drawbacks.

Drawback #1 - Working out loses all its flavor. Everything is a struggle in the gym and it pretty much takes all the joy out of working out. Training is tough even with a targeted ketogenic diet where pre and post workout carbs are allowed.

#2 - You will miss carbs.
#3 - You will not want to eat, will have zero appetite.
#4 - Leaves me feeling foggy and emotionally flat especially in the beginning.

That being said it is very effective, even for short periods of time. I'm ectomorphic but I do have some stubborn fat around my waist and love handle area that i was able to get rid of with ketosis in just 2 weeks (approx 7 pounds, strength was IMPROVED following ketosis).

here's some answers to your questions.

1. The type of ketogenic diet they use for epileptics is not recommended. That protocol calls for something like 92% of your calories to come from fats with 7% from protein, and <1% from carbs. Something like 80% fat cals and 20% protein is best for someone trying to spare muscle and burn fat.

2. Eating as much protein is not a good idea but you can eat as much meat as you want (red meat, bacon, fish, eggs, chicken anything that doesnt have carbs really (i.e, beef jerky). Like i said around 20% protein is good if you are trying to keep muscle and train while on the diet.

3. Cheese, now cheese supposedly doesn't have any carbs, but it actually does have a very small amount of lactose i believe. And for some reason it always reduces my level of ketosis when i eat it. Not to mention the fact that if you are prone, cheese will constipate you like nothing in this world. That being said I often crave cheese and do not limit my intake of it during ketosis.

4. I didn't end up needing any fiber for my first round of ketosis, but yes fiber pills do exist in chewable and pill form (metamucil makes one) and these are recommended as the drink mixes (i.e. citrucel, metamucil) have artificial sweetener, maltodextrin, and citric acid and will generally make you feel like shit during keto.

5. Artificial sweeteners, citric acid, etc. I wouldn't worry too much about them "slowing down" ketosis, they will temporarily reduce the amount of ketosis but it's not significant enough to affect your goals over a period of a couple weeks or more. You will avoid these things however, because aspartame can trigger the insulin response, and without any sugar being added to your bloodstream you will instantly feel the effects (no energy, mental fog). I only drink tea and water while in keto, once i had a diet cherry vanilla dr. pepper, never again. Also if you are trying to transition into ketosis, drinking diet drinks will only make everything much harder for you.

Cardio will be more difficult in ketosis, i recommend doing it for about 30 mins or so but reduce your resistance or speed (i.e. if you run on the treadmill at 6 mph reduce it to 5 or 4) because you won't have the same intensity, you can actually do lower intensity cardio for a longer period of time on keto however. Honestly I didn't even need to do cardio as much in keto, i only did it maybe 2x a week and had great results.

I recommend that you get Ketostix or an off-brand of ketone urinalysis strips, they will let you know if your diet is appropriate and what level of ketosis you are in, don't let the level bother you too much as it switches depending on whether or not you just ate a high fat meal etc. but use it to check periodically to make sure you are in ketosis. After you get used to the diet you can really tell whether your are in keto just by feel generally, but at first the strips help, but they are not 100 percent necessary.

Also if you are going to do it for more than 2 weeks, consider a targeted ketogenic diet (TKD) , or a cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD), both allow carbs at selected times to maintain workout intensity (somewhat) and your sanity. Search for them in the diet section on these boards you will find tons of info.

Hope this helps.

good info there. k to you.

ckd's are pretty outdated now, afew years ago they were the big thing. the info above is solid stuff. i have done ckds for years. now using carb cycling and the results are better than my ckd days.

 

[holy ghost]

www.c-k-d.com

got that from a mod on antoher site

bring a snickers bar to the gym with you incase you feel woozy bro

your blood sugar gets low on CKD diets

 

[st8grad]

Make sure to keep your fats up at like 1.5-1.8g per pound of bodyweight. You will feel weaker in the initial two weeks, but then should get a nice surge of energy after that. Cardio and lifting will become easier and you actually will notice better performance in cardio than when using carbs as a main source of energy. I don't think you need to hit ketosis for it to be effective at all, however it does act as a good primer to beginning more of a low carb eating plan.

Most people feel shitty because their fat intake is not high enough. Basically they do a high protein - low fat - low carb diet and that is stupid.

Fats are a better source of energy even though carbs are a more efficient source.

Check out some recommendations from Charles Poliquin, Johnny Bowden, Cassandra Forsythe and Jeff Volek.

Volek is at UCONN and I believe has studies that prove low carb performance to be superior to higher carb.

For lifting, I never felt a difference in strength or endurance because honestly lifters don't use that much glycogen anyway.

You WILL notice a great improvement in your lipid profile as well. I would get your blood drawn before and then like 2 months into it. Your jaw will hit the floor with the improvements.

 

[Max Expansion]

wow- what an amazing response

a few points of interest

1. i was really interested in your observations about lactase in cheese slowing ketosis- also cheese is very calorific, so i guess i should just keep clear of it a bit.

2. thanks for the points about the fibre- however now that i am going easy on the cheese (a little mozzarella once a day or so) i doubt ill have so much trouble

3. stay off the artificial sweetners-= point taken

the one thing i didnt totally understand from your very helpful answer, was the ratios of fat to protein. you said that i could eat as much meat as i want, but that you shouldnt have so much protein or something. you also suggested that a diet of 80 percent fat to 20 percent protein was good.
wow, how am i going to get that kinda fat content in my diet.
at the moment for lie the last 4 days i have been going quite easy on the fats.

my diet at the moment

morning- eggs and egg whites and lean ham
lunch- grilled fish, eggs whites, ham- extra virgin olive oil
dinner- steak, perhaps some tuna etc- all covered in olive oik

ive been going easy on the fat, so where should i get the rest of my fats from- i mean i guess im getting quite a bit from all the olive oil, but without a doubt the majority of my diet is mostly lean protein

any ideas

cheers

If you've never done ketosis, you are missing out. IMO, It is, hands down, THE most effective way to burn fat while sparing muscle, that being said, it has its drawbacks.

Drawback #1 - Working out loses all its flavor. Everything is a struggle in the gym and it pretty much takes all the joy out of working out. Training is tough even with a targeted ketogenic diet where pre and post workout carbs are allowed.

#2 - You will miss carbs.
#3 - You will not want to eat, will have zero appetite.
#4 - Leaves me feeling foggy and emotionally flat especially in the beginning.

That being said it is very effective, even for short periods of time. I'm ectomorphic but I do have some stubborn fat around my waist and love handle area that i was able to get rid of with ketosis in just 2 weeks (approx 7 pounds, strength was IMPROVED following ketosis).

here's some answers to your questions.

1. The type of ketogenic diet they use for epileptics is not recommended. That protocol calls for something like 92% of your calories to come from fats with 7% from protein, and <1% from carbs. Something like 80% fat cals and 20% protein is best for someone trying to spare muscle and burn fat.

2. Eating as much protein is not a good idea but you can eat as much meat as you want (red meat, bacon, fish, eggs, chicken anything that doesnt have carbs really (i.e, beef jerky). Like i said around 20% protein is good if you are trying to keep muscle and train while on the diet.

3. Cheese, now cheese supposedly doesn't have any carbs, but it actually does have a very small amount of lactose i believe. And for some reason it always reduces my level of ketosis when i eat it. Not to mention the fact that if you are prone, cheese will constipate you like nothing in this world. That being said I often crave cheese and do not limit my intake of it during ketosis.

4. I didn't end up needing any fiber for my first round of ketosis, but yes fiber pills do exist in chewable and pill form (metamucil makes one) and these are recommended as the drink mixes (i.e. citrucel, metamucil) have artificial sweetener, maltodextrin, and citric acid and will generally make you feel like shit during keto.

5. Artificial sweeteners, citric acid, etc. I wouldn't worry too much about them "slowing down" ketosis, they will temporarily reduce the amount of ketosis but it's not significant enough to affect your goals over a period of a couple weeks or more. You will avoid these things however, because aspartame can trigger the insulin response, and without any sugar being added to your bloodstream you will instantly feel the effects (no energy, mental fog). I only drink tea and water while in keto, once i had a diet cherry vanilla dr. pepper, never again. Also if you are trying to transition into ketosis, drinking diet drinks will only make everything much harder for you.

Cardio will be more difficult in ketosis, i recommend doing it for about 30 mins or so but reduce your resistance or speed (i.e. if you run on the treadmill at 6 mph reduce it to 5 or 4) because you won't have the same intensity, you can actually do lower intensity cardio for a longer period of time on keto however. Honestly I didn't even need to do cardio as much in keto, i only did it maybe 2x a week and had great results.

I recommend that you get Ketostix or an off-brand of ketone urinalysis strips, they will let you know if your diet is appropriate and what level of ketosis you are in, don't let the level bother you too much as it switches depending on whether or not you just ate a high fat meal etc. but use it to check periodically to make sure you are in ketosis. After you get used to the diet you can really tell whether your are in keto just by feel generally, but at first the strips help, but they are not 100 percent necessary.

Also if you are going to do it for more than 2 weeks, consider a targeted ketogenic diet (TKD) , or a cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD), both allow carbs at selected times to maintain workout intensity (somewhat) and your sanity. Search for them in the diet section on these boards you will find tons of info.

Hope this helps.

 

[mattdan]

All very good info above, buy your mileage may vary. Personally I feel great on keto and think it's the best way overall.

Regarding the fat intake. If you don't get enough fat, you can get protein poisoning - aka rabbit fever (because rabbits are so low in fat).

Plenty of fat intake, mostly healthy fats.

 

[st8grad]

Yeah, you have to get a lot of fat on that diet. I guess you have to be somewhat careful with the high protein so that it is not converted to energy.

You may want to rethink the fiber and do it anyway. Cheese or not, you will be more backed up that usual.

wow- what an amazing response

a few points of interest

1. i was really interested in your observations about lactase in cheese slowing ketosis- also cheese is very calorific, so i guess i should just keep clear of it a bit.

2. thanks for the points about the fibre- however now that i am going easy on the cheese (a little mozzarella once a day or so) i doubt ill have so much trouble

3. stay off the artificial sweetners-= point taken

the one thing i didnt totally understand from your very helpful answer, was the ratios of fat to protein. you said that i could eat as much meat as i want, but that you shouldnt have so much protein or something. you also suggested that a diet of 80 percent fat to 20 percent protein was good.
wow, how am i going to get that kinda fat content in my diet.
at the moment for lie the last 4 days i have been going quite easy on the fats.

my diet at the moment

morning- eggs and egg whites and lean ham
lunch- grilled fish, eggs whites, ham- extra virgin olive oil
dinner- steak, perhaps some tuna etc- all covered in olive oik

ive been going easy on the fat, so where should i get the rest of my fats from- i mean i guess im getting quite a bit from all the olive oil, but without a doubt the majority of my diet is mostly lean protein

any ideas

cheers

 

[10001110101]

Basically what I mean is avoid lean meats (i.e. turkey, tuna etc.) and if you eat them, make sure you have fat to go along with them at a meal, high protein/low fat meals are a no-no.

the comment about rabbit poisoning is correct, the native americans found that if they ate too much rabbit (since they subsisted on a meat only diet) that they got sick because it was a lean meat, they weren't getting enough fat and so they would lose ketotic efficiency as you can really only burn so much of your own fat at once, without an external fat source you feel ill.

Stick with the fattier meats as much as possible, chicken and fish are good, but make sure you include some red meat in there (ground beef is excellent, and i mean the cheap high-fat stuff, not ground round or sirloin). and if you don't get enough fat from your meat from a meal... just take a shot or two of olive oil and chase that with some omega-3's, btw this is a great opportunity to include plenty of healthy fats as well.

the thing you need to remember is, if you start feeling tired this means you need to eat, your appetite is no longer your clue to eat (well it is, but it's less noticeable) so eat if you are tired and don't know why, trust me, you'll feel better.

 

[mattdan]

1000 knows his keto.

I'd add that if you get an uncontrollable sweet tooth, the low carb sugar free candies aren't bad at all these days. Only in moderation tho, they not only aren't exactly health food, they can give you the runs.