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How slow of a digesting protein is this? Is it like eating meat?
Just how slow does Micellar digest?
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You use casein before bed? Have you used Micellar? But anways...that doesn't answer the question. But thanks for the info.
javaguru
Banned
I've never used it, I actually use a milk isolate 80% casein and 20% whey. I doubt if anyone can help you with actual numbers, I've never seen them. I saw one study that concluded digestion varies from individual to individual and day to day. On one occasion 100 grams of beef was digested in one hour by individual A but on occasion two it took 1.42 hours. Another individual consistently digested their protein within 2.0 hours consistently. The range for the entire group was from 1.0 hour to 2.0 hours for digestion of 100g of beef protein of which 70% was hydrolized upon entering the intestine where hydrolization continued.
The studies I've seen done with whey and casein have measured blood amino levels. Whey levels peaked in under an hour and fropped rapidly (within a couple hours). The casein was elevated in about an hour but remained elevated for over fours hours, peaking at three hours. Therefore it's hard to say how the beef compares to casein in maintaining elevated levels of amino acids. There are so many variables, including the size of the meal and composition that can modify times of digestion. It should be noted in the whey and casein study tehy were using leucine as a marker so more casein protein was consumed than whey which would likely modify times of digestion.
My point is that if you choose casein just stick with regular old casein or milk isolate and save your money.
The studies I've seen done with whey and casein have measured blood amino levels. Whey levels peaked in under an hour and fropped rapidly (within a couple hours). The casein was elevated in about an hour but remained elevated for over fours hours, peaking at three hours. Therefore it's hard to say how the beef compares to casein in maintaining elevated levels of amino acids. There are so many variables, including the size of the meal and composition that can modify times of digestion. It should be noted in the whey and casein study tehy were using leucine as a marker so more casein protein was consumed than whey which would likely modify times of digestion.
My point is that if you choose casein just stick with regular old casein or milk isolate and save your money.
ashley2212
Banned
Carth that is a wicked sexy tattoo on your back... makes me drool 
ashley2212 said:Carth that is a wicked sexy tattoo on your back... makes me drool
Thank you very much. Believe it or not, but a brazilian girl here in Miami created and did the tattoo for me. Her father did the spider web on my elbow.
JavaGuru said:
You really think casein will do the same job as Micellar? Milk Isolate is a slow digesting protein? Well, I asked this question not because I'm concerned about night time shakes before bed. But more during the day. See, I drink proteins from Proteinfactory. I have a whey and hydrolyzed whey protein/carb shake for pre and post WO. I have micellar before bed. And for meal replacements I use a 50/50 of CFM Whey/Casein. But just so you know...I am eating every 3 hours. Maybe the casein is tooooo slow for every 3 hours. And the Whey, like you said, will drop off in 2 hours. Hence it will leave me with 1 hour of no protein. Do you think the 50/50 is ok? Or should I do more like 70/30? Or maybe 80/20??? That is why I also wondered if eating chicken or tuna digests just as slow as casein.
javaguru
Banned
I go with the milk isolate for general use and use the iso chill for pre/during and post workout. Milk isolate is naturally "stacked" 80% casein and 20% whey as well as maintaining much of the mineral content of whole milk(high levels of calcium and magnesium). It's gently processed so maintains many subfractions. I think whey is highly over rated and milk isolate is highly under rated.
Not to mention if you go with an 80% 20% mix you'll be saving money by just buying the milk isolate.
Not to mention if you go with an 80% 20% mix you'll be saving money by just buying the milk isolate.
Yeah but whey digests faster. And if your eating every 2.5 to 3hours that would keep amino levels up! Where as taking a slow digesting protein every 2.5 to 3 hours won't benefit as much. IMO of course! I think the 80/20 would be great for bed time. You got 20% of a fast acting protien that kicks in and raises amino levels quick and then you got the other 80% from casein to slowly digest while sleeping and thus keeping amino levels....well...leveled. Holla back on this!
javaguru
Banned
I just received an 80 pound shipping drum of protein at work from the protein factory, 60lbs milk isolate and 20 pounds iso chill whey. One thing about whey is that in the absence of a mixed meal, whey alone, 40% of the amino were metabolized by by teh liver for energy. In theory one should take whey as a mixed meal to prevent this. I remember years ago when ckd first re-popularized among bodybuilders people were being kicked out of ketosis when using whey proteins, so if doing a ckd one should probably stick to slower digesting proteins. Also, the presence of casein and whey in the sam emeal shoudl slow down the entry of whey becasue it would likely get caught up in the "gel effect" of casein and the casomorphins would definitely slow down absorption.
Bottom line...what are you saying here? That CFM whey digests too fast and thus it is not a great protein source? Then what would it be good for? For pre and post workouts? What about hydrolyzed proteins for pre and post workouts with CFM whey? Or should CFM whey be used alone for pre and post without and hydros? Explain to me how the liver would use whey for energy? Maybe if I take it without carbs. But what if I am taking the whey with carbs?
javaguru
Banned
I would suggest using whey with carbs and personally I use it during my workout and immediately after. Otherwise, I use milk isolate exclusively. These are two times I want protein digested rapidly. I'll get a more sustained release protein 1 hour post workout when I have chicken or lean beef. Most of my diet is based on timing, the right nutrients at the right times.
What about hydro whey for pre and post? So milk isolate is all you use? All day? Honestly java...is it becaues of money issues? Or just because you know this is better? Or both? So for nighttime...before bed. You would suggest milk isolate with flax? Over Aussie casein with flax? Or even 20/CFM Whey with 80/Casein with flax?
javaguru
Banned
Remember, milk isolate contains all the wonderful protein subfractions of whey(from the 20%),all of the wonderful subfractions of casein(80%), and the high mineral content. The fact it's relatively cheap is just gravy. I'll give Scott Connelly credit for being ahead of his time for having milk isolate as the #1 protein ingredient in met-rx. I don't use a hydro whey because the hydrolization process destroys many of the sub fractions, not that its' a huge deal considering how small these amounts are compared to my total daily intake. I use iso chill with added aminogen(natural digestive enzymes) for during and post workout. At night use milk isolate and flax or fish oil. I prefer fish oil because the research done showing the beneficial effects of omega 3's was done using dha/epa both naturally occuring in fish oil but requiring conversion to them from flax.
Another advantage of milk isolate is that you get a better amino acid profile than whey or casein alone. Whey is relatively low in glutamine.
Another advantage of milk isolate is that you get a better amino acid profile than whey or casein alone. Whey is relatively low in glutamine.
Milk Isolate has a better amino profile than CFM Whey? What?! Than why is whey considered the top notch protein? Why is whey low in glutamine? So hydro proteins are worthless??? Seriously...are they? And what about glutamine peptides? Aren't they hydrolyzed too?
javaguru
Banned
Better as in more balanced. Whey is low in glutamine compared to casein and milk isolate. You get roughly 10.3g of glutamine from every 100g of milk isolate protein, whey has about 8 grams or which is over 20% less glutamine. Whey does have more BCAA"s roughly 23% bcaa while milk isolate is 20% bcaa (one reason I use whey in workout and post workout shake). In whey advertisements it's often touted as the "best" protein because the PER is the highest of all proteins. What they fail to tell you is that PER is based on rats and not humans, rats have different amino acid requirements than humans. Therefore, whey is only conclusively the best protein source if you're a rat. The PCDAAS is the most current standard for measuring protein quality IN HUMANS . Whey, casein and milk isolate all receive a perfect score of 1.0 while meats score between .8 and .92 on the scale. I consider milk isolate superior because it contains the functional properties of casein and whey as well as the mineral content. It's also much more mixable than casein and has a better "mouth feel."
Acid hydrolized whey is useless if you're looking for the special sub fractions that have health enhancing benefits. However, the point of using hydro is the rapid absorption and the amino acids so for the purpose of getting aminos into the blood quickly it is very useful. I just prefer the cheaper iso chill whey with aminogen. There are essentially two ways to hydrolize proteins, one is with acid which damages the sub fractions and the other is enzymes which are much more gentle, like aminogen.
Likewise with the the glutamine peptides, you're taking them for the glutamine and not any potential sub fractions. Enzymatic hydrolysis will not damage the protein.
Acid hydrolized whey is useless if you're looking for the special sub fractions that have health enhancing benefits. However, the point of using hydro is the rapid absorption and the amino acids so for the purpose of getting aminos into the blood quickly it is very useful. I just prefer the cheaper iso chill whey with aminogen. There are essentially two ways to hydrolize proteins, one is with acid which damages the sub fractions and the other is enzymes which are much more gentle, like aminogen.
Likewise with the the glutamine peptides, you're taking them for the glutamine and not any potential sub fractions. Enzymatic hydrolysis will not damage the protein.
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I use 35 grams of CFM whey and 15 grams of Hydro protein for post workout. Is ther e anything wrong with that? Should i change something here? But for pre workout I use 50grams of CFM whey and 60 grams of maltodextrin. I do add the glutamine peptides for pre and post.
Ok...great. So from what you have showed me so far. Would you say that ANY other protein shake that I take during the day as an MRP, it should be 100% Milk Isolate??? Even night time? What bout just Aussie Casein for night time shake? Do I add Glutamine peptides to ALL shakes? Or just pre and post? What about night time? Add glute there too? BTW java...what are your stats?
javaguru
Banned
As far as I'm concerned milk isolate is the best overall protein for "general use." I don't use MRP's but use a shake and take fish oil capsules for a protein and fat meal or use a piece of fruit or otameal/oat bran hot cereal. The glutamine peptides are up to you, I never noticed a difference in recovery but I consume around 300-330g of protein per day, 162g from my milk isolate which gives me over 15g of glutamine right there.
I'm currently 235 lb and high single digit BF at a height of 5'10".
I'm currently 235 lb and high single digit BF at a height of 5'10".
high single digit? Come on!!!! What are you? BTW...I forgot to mention something. This whole thing about milk isolates and the other proteins that I told you I take. Are these ok for cutting cycles? What about when it is time to bulk up? What difference should be done? Avoid milk isolate and take something else? Or add to that? What?
So for cutting...use the proteins we discussed. And for bulking still use the same proteins? Only of course up the carbs, good fats, and calories....right? On Iso-Chill whey, know anything about it? Good protein there? I'm lactose intolerant. Will this protein be a bad idea for me to take? Is Iso-Chill Whey a fast acting whey like CFM?
javaguru
Banned
Yep, the only difference between bulking and cutting is the carbs for me, my fat stays constant at around 60g per day. I'm mildly lacose intolerant and iso chill is low lactose. It's processed using a different method to become an isolate than other whey proteins. Other whey proteins uyse ion exchange and membrane filtration technology. From what I gather the sub fraction content varies from batch to batch. However, I take my milk isolate for the sub fraction and my whey for quick absorption.
CFM whey is of course the better whey. But would you say that iso-chill is still good? Or should it be left alone?
Why? Isochill is crap? I was thinking about using Isochill only on the weekends. On the weekends I usually have proteins with my carbs but not very high. Maybe like 20-30 grams the most per meal. And so I was planning on using the Isochill to cover for the remaining 25 that I would need. I llike to take 50grams of protein per meal.
ashley2212
Banned
This is a great post guys... a very interesting read...
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