IS the ASSAULT on Mrs. YATES over?

[gwl9dta4]

Seabass: As for the Bin Laden reference, I can only guess that you must be joking. A small difference here: PREMEDITATION. The act of a madman is not necessarily the act of someone whose mental deficiency eliminates their ability to distinguish right from wrong.

While I don't entirely disagree with your characterization of OUR system and the fact that the mentally ill often present a serious danger to society and usually cannot be rehabilitated or cured, you are suggesting euthanizing people who do not wish to die. In other words, MURDER. That makes you no better than the people you advocate killing. In fact, that makes you worse because while their actions may be beyond their control, yours represent a concious decision to take life.

OK wait, so what you are saying with your premeditation bit is that a insane person is not able to pre-meditate a murder. Their insanity comes in spurts without their consent? And then they go on a murderous rampage, right? THen they snap out and state that they went insane during their murders. There death sentence avoided.

By simple logic, anyone who is a murderer is insane, they are not fit to function in society and are "not all there" in their head. So we should just abolish all prisons and capital punishment in favor of high security mental wards. PLease, what a crock.

She showed premeditation, motive, and a clear knowledge of what she was doing. She also mentally tourmented her husband for years. And to think there are some uninfomred idiots on this board who have the gaw to accuse her husband of not being supportive to HER needs. What about HIM? His family and kids are gone? What about his kids? His children are gone.

By all rights i think that the death penalty for her is too good. She should be slowly tortured and kept alive for years on end kinda like the monsters in HELLBOUND HELLRAISER.

 

[Lao Tzu]

there is also a trend to avoid responsibility and blame mental illness or society. The fact of the matter is that she did it. Case closed.

so? i am all for placing blame where blame is due. Back when we thought the jews were responsible for the plague, we burned them at the stake but nothing changed. it wasn't until we discovered antibiotics that a majority of illnesses went away. Acts happen for a reason, just because it isn't socially acceptable to lay blame for something where blame belongs or find the true cause(s) of an issue doesn't mean it is a good idea. If mental illness or society are creating these issues then that should be dealt with logically instead of thrown aside because it violated our ethnocentric value system of personal responsibility.

 

[RyanH]

religious fanaticism? are you fucking joking? i think there is a difference between someone who attends church and someone like david koresh. you seem so very anti-religion, if you believe there is no god, you better be right for your own sake.

so which one is it now ryan? schizophrenia? post partum depression? or religion? you are very good at changing your story on everything.

my story remains very consistent: Mrs. Yates has a long history of post-pardum depression, and that, coupled with her husband's lack of concern, along with Mr. Yates' religious demands all contributed to the present outcome----five deceased children.

 

[gwl9dta4]

my story remains very consistent: Mrs. Yates has a long history of post-pardum depression, and that, coupled with her husband's lack of concern, along with Mr. Yates' religious demands all contributed to the present outcome----five deceased children.

AMAZING, you are simply AMAZING.

You actually can sit there and make HER out to be the victim. I wonder if you would sond like that if she was your wife and killed your kids?

Sometimes i wonder if you spew your nonsence just to get a rise out of the board members, you know kinda like a publicity stunt.

 

[Lao Tzu]

AMAZING, you are simply AMAZING.

You actually can sit there and make HER out to be the victim. I wonder if you would sond like that if she was your wife and killed your kids?

Sometimes i wonder if you spew your nonsence just to get a rise out of the board members, you know kinda like a publicity stunt.

assume he's right. If you could go back 10 years, and apply Ryan's solutions (deal with postpartum depression & help her escape a repressive environment) vs. the conservative's solution (go back 10 years and yell at her and tell her to grow up) i'm sure the chances of this happening now would be much less likely in Ryan's scenario than in the conservatives.

kudos to you Ryan.

 

[starfish]

Actually, I agree with Ryanh..

There are five dead children. More people are to blame than just Mrs. Yates..

 

[bunnymt]

assume he's right. If you could go back 10 years, and apply Ryan's solutions (deal with postpartum depression & help her escape a repressive environment) vs. the conservative's solution (go back 10 years and yell at her and tell her to grow up) i'm sure the chances of this happening now would be much less likely in Ryan's scenario than in the conservatives.

kudos to you Ryan.

That is totally ludicrous. We are not talking about a "what if" scenario. The fact is is that she killed her children and should die for it. She stole the lives away from 5 people. If we could all go back and change things from the past, the world would be perfect. But it isn't.

 

[bunnymt]

Actually, I agree with Ryanh..

There are five dead children. More people are to blame than just Mrs. Yates..

Sure. but those other people who are to "blame' did not kill 5 innocent people. She should suffer the consequences of her actions.

 

[thebabydoc]

Bullshit. There's big, big difference between suffering from an EATING disorder and murdering your innocent children.

Not to mention the fact that I do not blame society or my significant other for my eating disorder - I accept responsibility for it and I am doing something about it. I believe that things are as uncontrollable as you allow them to be. I have gone through a bad period, and I have worked my ass off to regain control.

If a person can't control themselves, then that person should at least have the God-given sense to commit their crazy ass somewhere until a professional can drug a little sanity into them.

And you're right, I don't have any compassion and understanding for this woman. Had she called someone up and said, "You know, I'm feeling a little squirrely and I think my children are in danger," then I MIGHT have, because then those children MIGHT be around today.

1. What eating disorder? I was talking about your self-described "post-partum depression" You seem eager to talk about it though, and we can certainly start a "Who here has an eating disorder?" thread if you'd like. The "bad period" you describe is a REACTIVE depressive/mood disorder, it is recognizable and often controllable by the individual. But when it progresses to psychosis and true depression, no amount of therapy or strength of will is gonna make you better without meds or time.

2. This woman WAS concerned, she TRIED TO KILL HERSELF TWICE because of this.

3. Neither this woman nor her attorneys are blaming society or anyone else. They are saying "She has a medical problem which needs treatment"

3. Your words tell me you have absolutely no understanding of true mental/psychiatric illness.
Don't feel bad though, this is (I think) why Ryan started this thread. Mental illness exists and is just as real as a tumor is to a cancer patient. The sooner we educate the public in recognizing this, the better chance we have of curing it. All these drugs which COUNTLESS people on these boards are on (SSRI's- Prozac, Wellbutrin, Paxil, Zoloft, Celexa, Pamelor, on and on...) DID NOT EXIST 10 years ago. Why were they made and why do they exist? Because medicine realized that there is a physiological and biological CAUSE for psychiatric illness. As such, it is potentially curable. To date, cancer, AIDS, and even the common cold do not share this bright future of a cure.

In its acute phase, patients are unable to recognize psychiatric illness. Do you think schitzophrenics are lining up to admit themselves to inpatient facilities? Why not? Have you ever seen or heard of manic-depressives? When they get manic, they STOP taking their meds and refuse medical treatment. They jump off of buildings thinking they can fly or drive 150 MPH down Main Street, USA. How long has the average depressed person on this board suffered with their illness before they knew of it and sought treatment? Where are all of you people who are on anti-depressants now to support this woman? Fucking self-righteous hypocrites. Throw away those meds and lets see the sympathy you'd like to get.

 

[starfish]

If her doctors and husband were more responsible, Mrs. Yates never would have been alone.. Much less alone with her children..

I really don't know what I think.. But I know I'm pissed at her doctors and husband.. If my wife had post partum depression, I would stop having kids and get her well to raise the family we had.

--------------------

What about a case like this?? Someone opens a bar and then serves someone even though they know she is completely intoxicated and can't make good judgements. I keep serving them and don't call them a cab.. On the way home, the kill 5 people in a car wreck. In my opinion, the bar owner is just as guilty.

 

[gwl9dta4]

assume he's right. If you could go back 10 years, and apply Ryan's solutions (deal with postpartum depression & help her escape a repressive environment) vs. the conservative's solution (go back 10 years and yell at her and tell her to grow up) i'm sure the chances of this happening now would be much less likely in Ryan's scenario than in the conservatives.

kudos to you Ryan.

OHHHH and you know this for a fact? How can you prove 100% that, that would be the case? As Bunnymt pointed out, a "what if" scenario is ludicrous.

Using the "what if" scenario, we sould be able to get off every rapist and murderer in jail today. I mean, if this person was not spanked while a kid and was talked to more, he would not have become a rapist but a scientist. LOL!! You homos crack me up, it's a good thing you are not runnig the world, you are and forever will be the irritating minority.

 

[Lao Tzu]

What constitutes the blame game? if someone has an infection do you blame bacteria, then prescribe antibiotics, or do you call the person a scapegoater if they try to pinpoint the cause(s) of their problems?

do conservatives even distinguish between scapegoating & finding valid cause-effect relationships?

If being a vietnam vet makes people 600% (as a guess) more likely to be homeless, then that is a fact and needs to be addressed to solve the problem instead of attributed to 'blaming others'. People are not born equal. And we don't have as much control over our lives as we like to think.

We live in a culture where many people play the so-called "blame game," a tragic activity where nobody ever wants to accept the consequences for their actions. Kill your babies, get a lawyer, and blame the action on postpartum depression so bad that it made you insane. Get in your car drunk and run over a family out for an evening stroll and blame it on mental illness. End up homeless by refusing to work and blame your predicament on your experience in Vietnam, an angry mother, an abusive father or poor potty training.

So what IS the answer? Well, we could start by calling a halt to the "blame game." I don't think anyone would question that both Andrea Yates and Constance Fisher were troubled. But so troubled that they had to murder their children? Did anyone MAKE them commit those heinous acts? I say no, and with that in mind our justice system needs to take corresponding action. Such steps will result in Andrea Yates facing her maker SOONER rather than LATER!

 

[bunnymt]

If her doctors and husband were more responsible, Mrs. Yates never would have been alone.. Much less alone with her children..

I really don't know what I think.. But I know I'm pissed at her doctors and husband..

--------------------

What about a case like this?? Someone opens a bar and then serves someone even though they know she is completely intoxicated and can't make good judgements. I keep serving them and don't call them a cab.. On the way home, the kill 5 people in a car wreck. In my opinion, the bar owner is just as guilty.

I am not following how drinking too much and being irresponsible has anything to do with a woman killing her 5 children.
Don't be angry at the doctors and her husband...be angry at her!
Regardless of anything else...she committed the actions and should be punished. why are we concentrating on 'what if' scenarios. That will get us no where.

 

[gwl9dta4]

If her doctors and husband were more responsible, Mrs. Yates never would have been alone.. Much less alone with her children..

I really don't know what I think.. But I know I'm pissed at her doctors and husband.. If my wife had post partum depression, I would stop having kids and get her well to raise the family we had.

--------------------

What about a case like this?? Someone opens a bar and then serves someone even though they know she is completely intoxicated and can't make good judgements. I keep serving them and don't call them a cab.. On the way home, the kill 5 people in a car wreck. In my opinion, the bar owner is just as guilty.

I am seeing a mastery of basing opinions on the "what if" scenarios.

Another thing, the killer moms husband was a very good husband. He tried to help her on many occasions. Why is everyone ripping on him without knowing the facts? WTF?
Why do men always the short end of the stick in this society? WTF, WTF, WTF?

 

[Lao Tzu]

OHHHH and you know this for a fact? How can you prove 100% that, that would be the case? As Bunnymt pointed out, a "what if" scenario is ludicrous.

Using the "what if" scenario, we sould be able to get off every rapist and murderer in jail today. I mean, if this person was not spanked while a kid and was talked to more, he would not have become a rapist but a scientist. LOL!! You homos crack me up, it's a good thing you are not runnig the world, you are and forever will be the irritating minority.

oooooooh. can't even carry on a polite argument i see. neither can i. i'd gladly take the label of homo over braindead conservative anyday. At least i can think outside the box and try to figure out the truth, even when it is unpopular to do so.

I don't see anything wrong with trying to figure out what the causes of this issue are and dealing with them appropiately. Even if the causes are unpopular, they should at least be brought to light.

 

[starfish]

Bunny,

Out of curiosity, how much press are you getting about it in France???? Segments or the whole thing??

 

[Lao Tzu]

why are we concentrating on 'what if' scenarios. That will get us no where.

you're right. However, if someone like Ryan tries to figure out the cause(s) of a problem (which he does sometimes) then that is better than falling back on antiquated notions of 'mind over matter' which many conservatives seem to feel. No man is an all powerful island, and placing blame where blame really is due, although misused alot, can give us more control over our environment and our actions.

 

[starfish]

Nordstrom,

I COMPLETELY AGREE!!

 

[RyanH]

oooooooh. can't even carry on a polite argument i see. neither can i. i'd gladly take the label of homo over braindead conservative anyday.

.

"homo" is often the label many conservatives resort to when reacting to those with the winning argument. When they can't win on the issues, then often they are left with nothing but personal attacks.

His sort of language, in the midst of a political debate, is precisely why so many Americans increasingly see conservatives as mean-spirited reactionary citizens.

 

[bunnymt]

"homo" is often the label many conservatives resort to when reacting to those with the winning argument. When they can't win on the issues, then often they are left with nothing but personal attacks.

His sort of language, in the midst of a political debate, is precisely why so many Americans increasingly see conservatives as mean-spirited reactionary citizens.

You took that out of context. He was not personally attacking anyone. It is normal that when a debate gets heated, that people start to use 'heated' language.
It is often people who are losing arguments who try to sway the topic to a discussion about something else that is totally irrevelant.

 

[bunnymt]

oooooooh. can't even carry on a polite argument i see. neither can i. i'd gladly take the label of homo over braindead conservative anyday. At least i can think outside the box and try to figure out the truth, even when it is unpopular to do so.

I don't see anything wrong with trying to figure out what the causes of this issue are and dealing with them appropiately. Even if the causes are unpopular, they should at least be brought to light.

what truth are you trying to figure out? She committed the actions and should suffer her consequences. She is a detriment to society.
OK. However, she is the one to blame because she committed the crime. There is only so much that people (doctors, etc) can do to help someone who is a mentally-ill handicap to society.

 

[starfish]

[QUwhat truth are you trying to figure out? She committed the actions and should suffer her consequences. She is a detriment to society.
OK. However, she is the one to blame because she committed the crime. There is only so much that people (doctors, etc) can do to help someone who is a mentally-ill handicap to society.OTE]


WOW....

 

[bunnymt]

[QUwhat truth are you trying to figure out? She committed the actions and should suffer her consequences. She is a detriment to society.
OK. However, she is the one to blame because she committed the crime. There is only so much that people (doctors, etc) can do to help someone who is a mentally-ill handicap to society.OTE]


WOW....

Perhaps I was too harsh. but I think you get the point here.

 

[Canes4Ever]

If her doctors and husband were more responsible, Mrs. Yates never would have been alone.. Much less alone with her children..

I really don't know what I think.. But I know I'm pissed at her doctors and husband.. If my wife had post partum depression, I would stop having kids and get her well to raise the family we had.

On this I agree with Starfish, there are people who let Mrs. Yates and the children down.

I also agree with Starfish that Mr. Yates shares partial blame by making his wife have more children even after having an issue in her ealier pregancies with post-partum depression. They should have together made the decision to not have any more children.

 

[gwl9dta4]

"homo" is often the label many conservatives resort to when reacting to those with the winning argument. When they can't win on the issues, then often they are left with nothing but personal attacks.

His sort of language, in the midst of a political debate, is precisely why so many Americans increasingly see conservatives as mean-spirited reactionary citizens.

Yeah yeah yeah. But the fact remains that you are a homosexual, are you not?

BTW i am not a conservative, i am a communist, Don't stick labels on me, or we will come for you and take you away with no trial.

 

[gwl9dta4]

oooooooh. can't even carry on a polite argument i see. neither can i. i'd gladly take the label of homo over braindead conservative anyday. At least i can think outside the box and try to figure out the truth, even when it is unpopular to do so.

I don't see anything wrong with trying to figure out what the causes of this issue are and dealing with them appropiately. Even if the causes are unpopular, they should at least be brought to light.

Heh, you took my homo bit quite well. I am glad as i was just having fun. But about the conservative bit, i am a communist. Now if only you and Ryan would understand and accept it.

 

[Canes4Ever]

"homo" is often the label many conservatives resort to when reacting to those with the winning argument. When they can't win on the issues, then often they are left with nothing but personal attacks.

His sort of language, in the midst of a political debate, is precisely why so many Americans increasingly see conservatives as mean-spirited reactionary citizens.

And your pussy-footing, politically correct loving, anti-religious liberism, is another reason why the Congress has been overwhelmingly conservative and Republican for the last 10+ years. If the Democrats had not been so far to the left in the 1960's and 1970's, they would be the majority party to this day.

(And I unfortunately say that as a registered Democrat since 1978)

Most Americans see both sides as fanatics and are looking at 3rd party politics with a centrist mentality and an eye for the future.

How do you think Jesse Ventura won in Minnesota? Don't be surprised if he and other independants make a splash in 2002 & 2004 elections.

 

[gwl9dta4]

And your pussy-footing, politically correct loving, anti-religious liberism, is another reason why the Congress has been overwhelmingly conservative and Republican for the last 10+ years. If the Democrats had not been so far to the left in the 1960's and 1970's, they would be the majority party to this day.

(And I unfortunately say that as a registered Democrat since 1978)

Most Americans see both sides as fanatics and are looking at 3rd party politics with a centrist mentality and an eye for the future.

How do you think Jesse Ventura won in Minnesota? Don't be surprised if he and other independants make a splash in 2002 & 2004 elections.

AMEN BROTHER!!

 

[Big Wiggs]

Serial killers obvilously have problems, the guy who loses his job and goes and shoots his office up has mental problems. Have we spent money on trying to understand them? Maybe a little for serial killers but guess what, they still end up on death row! Eye for an eye baby. Kill and be killed!! If you committ a crime you must pay the price for your consequences!! Point blank. It's a waste of money storing the many pieces of shit we have in the prisons. What is the point of giving someone a life sentence? Yeah so they might be better rehabilitated in 10 years but does it do any good? Nope. THEY'RE NEVER LEAVING!! We waste to much money on those asses and they deserve to die!! I live in San Antonio and I'll be the first guy out on the street with sense happiness the day they say ANDREA YATES WILL DIE!! "The many problems our women face in America today" Give me a fucking break!! Work on real issues. I'm not saying women in America don't have problems, your making them sound like thry're from the Middle East. Everyone has excuse for everything today and no one once to accept responsibility for anything that they do.