IS the ASSAULT on Mrs. YATES over?

[RyanH]

It looked like the state of Texas was ready to put a mentally ill patient to death, but now good news is emerging, and consequently, Mrs. Yates, the woman accused of drowning her 5 children will get help instead of the chamber. The following is the latest in our crusade to finally understand the issues so many women in our nation face......Ryan.

HOUSTON (Reuters) - Texas prosecutors hinted Tuesday they may stop pursuing the death penalty against a Houston mother who drowned her five children in a bathtub, if she accepts responsibility for the killings.

Harris County Assistant District Attorney Joe Owmby said prosecutors may yet change their decision to let a jury decide whether Andrea Yates, 37, should be sentenced to death for drowning her five children, aged six months to 7 years.

"Even at this stage, for example, the defendant could choose to accept criminal responsibility, which would be an additional mitigating factor and would, I believe, very likely call the state to recommend a life sentence," Owmby said during a hearing on a defense motion.

Yates has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to the two counts of capital murder. Her lawyers argue a psychotic form of postpartum depression that cropped up after her fourth pregnancy and worsened after her fifth caused Yates to drown her children on July 20.

Owmby said prosecutors could not determine if there were enough mitigating factors to justify a life sentence for the former nurse and homemaker, so they opted to leave it in a jury's hands.

Under Texas law, jurors must consider if there are sufficient mitigating factors that would preclude sentencing a defendant to death. That is the second of two questions jurors consider during the penalty phase of a capital murder trial.

The first asks if the defendant presents a future danger to society, and an affirmative answer leads jurors to the second. If the panel decides there are enough mitigating factors, then the result is a life sentence.

Two members of the jury of 12 and two alternates who may have to consider those questions were chosen on Tuesday. Both are married women with psychology degrees; one has a three-year-old child.

An initial pool of 60 candidates was called on Monday, and as of Tuesday, 13 were stricken and eight were released by agreement. The process is expected to last four weeks.

Before juror questioning, State District Judge Belinda Hill denied a defense motion asking for equal time to respond in the media to comments Harris County District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal made to the CBS TV program "60 Minutes."

Hill imposed a gag order that precludes trial participants from talking to the media. Rosenthal's interview and one given by Yates' husband Russell to "60 Minutes" are the subject of an investigation by a special prosecutor.

She did allow Yates lawyer George Parnham to read into the record an earlier motion outlining their plans to focus on Yates' mental illness in their defense.

"But for the psychosis, she would never have considered, much less acted upon, any thought to take the lives of the children she bore into this world and dearly loved as their mother," Parnham read from the motion.

Texas law allows that a defendant can be found not guilty by reason of insanity if they had a severe mental defect that prevented them from discerning right from wrong at the time a crime was committed.

Of the two capital murder counts against Yates, one charges her with drowning sons Noah, 7, and John, 5, while the other charges her with drowning 6-month-old daughter Mary.

Prosecutors opted not to indict her in the deaths of sons Luke, 2, and Paul, 3. One indictment meets the requirements for a Texas capital murder charge because it alleges two killings during the same episode, while the other alleges the killing of a child under the age of 6.

 

[spentagn]

My God. I didn't think you'd stoop this low. Should've known better. Have children, you'll understand.

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

pathetic

I wish I was the one who could put a bullet in that bitches head.

 

[RyanH]

My God. I didn't think you'd stoop this low. Should've known better. Have children, you'll understand.

Have post-pardum depression, and you'll understand.

 

[RyanH]

pathetic

I wish I was the one who could put a bullet in that bitches head.

Why do you need to put a bullet into Mrs. Yate's head? What do you hope to achieve by carrying out such an act?

 

[the nature boy]

well the crime was committed in texas, so she's pretty much dead.

 

[LiLady11]

I don't care what kind of depression you have, you don't kill another human life, especially not five!!

Have post-partum depression and get some help. This is no excuse!!

 

[RyanH]

This issue is about the mental health of women. This case is an opportunity to highlight the silent mental issues some women face----something our great nation has unfortunately failed to understand.

 

[RyanH]

I don't care what kind of depression you have, you don't kill another human life, especially not five!!

Have post-partum depression and get some help. This is no excuse!!

Her husand, society's failure to understand these types of mental issues, and Mrs. Yate's illness killed those 5 children.

No more, no less.

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

Why do you need to put a bullet into Mrs. Yate's head? What do you hope to achieve by carrying out such an act?

I acchieve a couple of things.

1. One more piece of shit is taken from this earth.

2. She will be dead and the great citizens of Texas will not have to support this scum, nor will they have to provide for government research into depression.

Oh thats right, she is not to blame. Her husband and society in general is to blame. I forgot that liberals have zero concept of self responsibility.

 

[the nature boy]

there is also a trend to avoid responsibility and blame mental illness or society. The fact of the matter is that she did it. Case closed.

 

[spentagn]

Have post-pardum depression, and you'll understand.

Kinda like how you know how torturous being pregnant is, right? I love it when you talk out of your ass.

 

[manny78]

RyanH I cant believe your post...... must be a dream....

 

[Frackal]

Fuck you for this one Ryan.

 

[RyanH]

I acchieve a couple of things.

1. One more piece of shit is taken from this earth.

2. She will be dead and the great citizens of Texas will not have to support this scum, nor will they have to provide for government research into depression.

Oh thats right, she is not to blame. Her husband and society in general is to blame. I forgot that liberals have zero concept of self responsibility.

No human is a piece of shit. If you're human, you're human, you don't become a pond of shit by having mental issues.

Texas will have to face another one of these tragic incidents if something is not done to help women in Mrs. Yate's similar unfortunate circumstance.

Liberals are all about responsibility---that's why we trust women to make her own choice about abortion; that's why we ended "welfare as we knew"; that's why we understand it's unfair to leave the nation's poor with a 300 dollar tax cut while corporations get millions in tax breaks or.....and further, we also see how irresponsbile it was for our nation to bail out the nation's airline companies.

 

[spentagn]

Fuck you for this one Ryan.

Thanks Frackal. That's what I meant to say.

 

[RyanH]

Fuck you for this one Ryan.

Well then get ready to fuck.....many Americans have absolutely no idea as to the magnitude of mental issues that America's women sometimes face.

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

Well then get ready to fuck.....many Americans have absolutely no idea as to magnitude of some mental issues that America's women sometimes face.

So this gives them the right to murder 5 innocent children? Only you could justify her crime.

 

[spentagn]

Well then get ready to fuck.....many Americans have absolutely no idea as to the magnitude of mental issues that America's women sometimes face.

Once again, how the fuck would you know?

 

[RyanH]

Once again, how the fuck would you know?

Please tell us how you possibly know? I have truth on my side, medical science, and you, well you seem to have hatred on your side. Is it right what Mrs. Yates did to her children? No. Is it right for Mrs. Yates to go free? No. But right now, most people are thinking with their emotions, as opposed to logic:

Post-Pardum depression, Munchasen Syndrome cause women to do extremely irration, psychotic things: such as murdering your children, when normally the mother would have never.

"But for" the post-pardum depression those children would still be alive.

But, as you well know---- it's always harder to think than to feel.

 

[manny78]

this is for you Ryan

 

[Citruscide]

There is NEVER a justification for a crime... but there are reasons why they happen, and sometimes, these reasons are beyond the control of the guilty party.

Should they go free? No. Should they be killed? No... Should they be helped... yes. Punishing someone when they didn't have the proper Mens Rea (the evil intent) to commit the crime is just rediculous. Now, I'm not saying this is the case here.

An example (that I don't agree with) is when a husband rushes in a room, his wife is having sex... he loses it, kills them in blind rage. He's still convicted of murder, but 2nd degree/voluntary manslaughter (Depending on the jurisdiction)... and not 1st degree because he didn't have the intent... the malice... yes, he intended to kill, but through a cloud of blind rage.

Like I said, I don't like the idea of a woman who killed her kids to go free... but I don't that is the case... she is getting treated for her condition.

I am a big fan of rehabilitation rather than prison... throwing people away doesn't solve much... and makes them worse criminals...

I could rant on this topic forever.

C

 

[RyanH]

Sorry Manny but it's hard to applaud a chair that does nothing more than allow society to become as barbaric as those they are murdering. Why must justice depend on death?

 

[spentagn]

Please tell us how you possibly know

I have a child, which thankfully is more than you can say. Men do experience a form of post-pardum depression. You can look that up in your books, too. My wife also dealt with it. All women do who have children. Why don't more women go off and kill 5 children? Becuase it is inhumane.

But, as you well know---- it's always harder to think than to feel.

Obviously, you can do neither.

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

Sorry Manny but it's hard to applaud a chair that does nothing more than allow society to become as barbaric as those they are murdering. Why must justice depend on death?

Has a dead person ever committed murder again?

Has a supposed rehabilitated criminal ever committed murder again?

 

[starfish]

I don't think Ryanh is trying to justify this crime.. I think he makes legitimate statements to try and PREVENT something so sad from taking place again..

starfish

 

[RyanH]

I have a child, which thankfully is more than you can say. Men do experience a form of post-pardum depression. You can look that up in your books, too. My wife also dealt with it. All women do who have children. Why don't more women go off and kill 5 children? Becuase it is inhumane.



Obviously, you can do neither.

Amusing how you simplify mental illnesses into just being the "common cold." You seem to believe that all women have the means of "dealing with it" when medical science says they often don't. Your reaction to a horrifying mental illness is simply..."gas her!" Where does that get us as a society." I'll tell you where it gets us-----we become those murderers we are killing.

 

[spentagn]

And since when are you an expert on women's mental conditions following a full-term labor?

 

[RyanH]

I don't think Ryanh is trying to justify this crime.. I think he makes legitimate statements to try and PREVENT something so sad from taking place again..

starfish

That's right, Starfish. We see that it's easier to hate than to assist those in need. As a society we should help those who can't help themselves---a fundamental American premise that many have unfortunately forgotten.

 

[OMEGA]

This issue is about the mental health of women. This case is an opportunity to highlight the silent mental issues some women face----something our great nation has unfortunately failed to understand.

WOW!!!!!



you really are a cookie cutter liberal!!!

do they make you in a factory?

with enlarged rectums, and mouths on the new and improved hollywood model?


seriuosly, I am pretty liberally leaning.......but your just plain wrong on this dude.....

not everything is a case for the establishemnt of some sort of legal precident that will effect all other laws you know.

save the dramatasicm for more "gray" area cases...this ones pretth black and white

O

 

[Frackal]

Well as I said in the pm to Ryan, I agree with him that she should not simply be executed and dropped into the back of a dumpster, YET. She does NEED to be studied, poked, pricked, discected, I don't give a fuck, because this is obviously a real issue that can again obviously cause many problems.

However, I hope however this bitch meets her end, she meets it horridly.

This is the simple fact:

IF SHE WAS SO FUCKING DEPRESSED, THEN SHE SHOULD HAVE KILLED HER MOTHAFUCKIN SELF, SINCE SHE CERTAINLY HAD THE MENTAL CAPACITY TO SLOWLY KILL 5 OTHERS INSTEAD. SHE IS A COWARD, AND NOT WORTHY OF ANYTHING OTHER THAN MENTAL DISCECTION AND SOON AFTER, DEATH.

And this is not thinking just with emotion, this is logically fair. She killed 5, she should die.

 

[Citruscide]

It's hard when you think of what would be best for the victims, or when you put yourself in the victim's shoes... it pisses me off too. But, killing off people that have mental (curable) disorders for murder, a crime that has the inherent elements of malice aforethought (planned out) ... doesn't make sense to me? IF... I stress... IF this lady was out of her goard, she shouldn't be put to death... maybe in a mental hospital for the rest of her life (which is worse than death, to me)...

There isn't a justification for crime... in fact the number of sucessful insanity defenses are less than .1 percent. Most people who claim they were insane try to cover it up... an insane person would walk into a bar, with a bloody ax, order a beer and watch a game... when asked why he is covered in blood, he would respond "I just hacked off my wife's head, now please, I'm trying to watch the game" -- they lack the capacity to know what they are doing is wrong...

C

 

[RyanH]

they lack the capacity to know what they are doing is wrong...

C

that' exactly right, and that's why she'll be found to be mentally insane.

 

[RyanH]

Well as I said in the pm to Ryan, I agree with him that she should not simply be executed and dropped into the back of a dumpster, YET. She does NEED to be studied, poked, pricked, discected, I don't give a fuck, because this is obviously a real issue that can again obviously cause many problems.

However, I hope however this bitch meets her end, she meets it horridly.

This is the simple fact:

IF SHE WAS SO FUCKING DEPRESSED, THEN SHE SHOULD HAVE KILLED HER MOTHAFUCKIN SELF, SINCE SHE CERTAINLY HAD THE MENTAL CAPACITY TO SLOWLY KILL 5 OTHERS INSTEAD. SHE IS A COWARD, AND NOT WORTHY OF ANYTHING OTHER THAN MENTAL DISCECTION AND SOON AFTER, DEATH.

And this is not thinking just with emotion, this is logically fair. She killed 5, she should die.

And Frackal, what do we do when this tragic circumstances lurks its ugly head again.....again, and again. Ultimately we're going to have to deal with the problem instead of the effect.....the question is how many mentally troubled women will we slaughter before we finally ask...."why are they doing what they do?'

 

[strongchick]

For all you folks that advocate capital punishment in this case, what would you do to prevent another post partum murder?

If you think the lethal injection is the answer, you are 'dead' wrong.

Knee-jerk capital punishment only serves to allow us to ignore prevention mechanisms.

Those that think a mother suffering from this condition is going to think "no, I won't do it cuz the punishment for getting caught is death", sound naive.

 

[RyanH]

WOW!!!!!



you really are a cookie cutter liberal!!!

do they make you in a factory?

with enlarged rectums, and mouths on the new and improved hollywood model?


seriuosly, I am pretty liberally leaning.......but your just plain wrong on this dude.....

not everything is a case for the establishemnt of some sort of legal precident that will effect all other laws you know.

save the dramatasicm for more "gray" area cases...this ones pretth black and white

O

Who said anything about legal precedent, I certaintly didn't. As I stated earlier, this is about women's mental health.

 

[RyanH]

For all you folks that advocate capital punishment in this case, what would you do to prevent another post partum murder?

If you think the lethal injection is the answer, you are 'dead' wrong.

Knee-jerk capital punishment only serves to allow us to ignore prevention mechanisms.

Those that think a mother suffering from this condition is going to think "no, I won't do it cuz the punishment for getting caught is death", sound naive.

I knew that many more of the ENLIGHTENED would weigh in....As usual, Strongchick has truth on her side, again.

You see, Strongchick, some people are having a troublesome time understanding cause/effect and how they are dependent on one another.

 

[Bodhidogma]

I acchieve a couple of things.

1. One more piece of shit is taken from this earth.

2. She will be dead and the great citizens of Texas will not have to support this scum, nor will they have to provide for government research into depression.

Oh thats right, she is not to blame. Her husband and society in general is to blame. I forgot that liberals have zero concept of self responsibility.

and people will think twice about killing their children and trying to get off by pleading insanity

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

How is keeping this moron alive going to do anything to prevent another case of murder. That is like saying that keeping Tim McVeigh alive would prevent another OKC bombing.

I would execute this women and then allow the private sector to further their research on mental health issues concerning both men and women. I do not want my tax dollars supporting any type of gov.org research into this condition. I also do not want my tax dollars keeping this scum alive.

 

[strongchick]

I do not want my tax dollars supporting any type of gov.org research into this condition. I also do not want my tax dollars keeping this scum alive.

Unless of course, you _personally_ have some rare weed smoking disease....

 

[RyanH]

I do not want my tax dollars supporting any type of gov.org research into this condition. I also do not want my tax dollars keeping this scum alive.

So, let's clarify something: You don't trust the government with your tax dollars but you trust government with a life/death decision.

Which is it? Do you trust government or not?

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

Unless of course, you _personally_ have some rare weed smoking disease....

Wrong again.

 

[Warik]

It is a sad day when a society's legal system rules that cold-blooded, confessed murder is acceptable.

-Warik

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

So, let's clarify something: You don't trust the government with your tax dollars but you trust government with a life/death decision.

Which is it? Do you trust government or not?

By now you should know my opinions of our justice system. I support capital punishment in cases of abosolute proof. Eveyone and their momma knows that Yates killed these children. There is not grey area here in terms of who did it. Thus in this particular case I do in fact trust the gov.org to execute this women. Althoug I would prefer if they put it on pay-per-view television so that I could view for entertainment.

 

[strongchick]

It is a sad day when a society's legal system rules that cold-blooded, confessed murder is acceptable.

-Warik

I don't think not killing this woman is ignoring her bad deed.

 

[RyanH]

It is a sad day when a society's legal system rules that cold-blooded, confessed murder is acceptable.

-Warik

Using graphics to arouse emotion is an effective but cheap way of arousing emotion....You have ignored the plea of millions of women across our country.

 

[brainiac]

I acchieve a couple of things.

1. One more piece of shit is taken from this earth.

2. She will be dead and the great citizens of Texas will not have to support this scum, nor will they have to provide for government research into depression.

Oh thats right, she is not to blame. Her husband and society in general is to blame. I forgot that liberals have zero concept of self responsibility.

Why am starting to feel like a Poly-Sci Prof here??? OK. I will straighten shit out for you all AGAIN. She was having problems with depression and the medications her DR. had her on. Same SSRI's the kids at Columbine, Santee, and several other "going postal" events of the past 5 years had been taking(or not taking as they should-do a search on anti dep withdrawal and you will see they are just finding out that about 5% of the people on this stuff become delusional if their DR. overmedicates or cuts dosages to quickly. She also thought she was in hell and was sending her kids to heaven, where she would soon join them. How do I know this? Cannot say but he lives in Houston and is an Attorney. This info is not being released because of the high profile nature of the case. The DA is softening up now that he is seeing that evidence. Under observation-in jail- they are seeing that she is crazier than a shit house rat. I wouldn't miss her fucked up ass one way or the other but, again, gotta clear up certain POV's. (sigh)

 

[strongchick]

Man pretending to be the final judge...all you so-called Christians advocating capital punishment strikes me as hypocritical.

If God is the final judge...then man has no business taking a life based on our lowly system.

 

[RyanH]

By now you should know my opinions of our justice system. I support capital punishment in cases of abosolute proof.

And how do you determine that you have "absolute proof?" Further, how do you administer capital punishment non-racially?

These are important questions, and the Governor of Illinois recently woke-up and put a halt to capital punishment throughout the state. Hopefully other enlightened justices will follow the Governor's bold lead.

 

[spentagn]

Man pretending to be the final judge...all you so-called Christians advocating capital punishment strikes me as hypocritical.

If God is the final judge...then man has no business taking a life based on our lowly system.

God shall judge me, not you nor anyone else. If I am wrong in my convictions, He shall inform me so when He sees fit.

 

[strongchick]

God shall judge me, not you nor anyone else. If I am wrong in my convictions, He shall inform me so when He sees fit.

Apply this logic to this case...and she gets extended, lengthy jail time with treatment, not death.

Would God want us to kill?

 

[spentagn]

Apply this logic to this case...and she gets extended, lengthy jail time with treatment, not death.

Would God want us to kill?

Logic has no place in this case. Her act was horrid. Inhumane. God hasn't told me His views on this. Yet.

 

[RyanH]

Man pretending to be the final judge...all you so-called Christians advocating capital punishment strikes me as hypocritical.

If God is the final judge...then man has no business taking a life based on our lowly system.

Reminds me also of how they don't believe abortion is a woman's choice, but believe that criminals should be fried, gased, and stuck daily. And, of course, we can't forget about Christians wanting innocent citizens to die at the hands of war. For example, in 1990 Christians such as George Bush Sr., put lives at risk for in Desert Storm for what? Oil....Money over life.

 

[spentagn]

Not everyone who wants her to die is Christian. Take your easy targets though.

 

[RyanH]

Apply this logic to this case...and she gets extended, lengthy jail time with treatment, not death.

Would God want us to kill?

Some Americans have unfortunately failed to realize an archaic fact: Capital punishment is not a deterrent, it's only purpose is an illegitamate one---revenge.

 

[strongchick]

Not everyone who wants her to die is Christian. Take your easy targets though.

But proponents such as Bush claim to be Christian.

 

[RyanH]

But proponents such as Bush claim to be Christian.

Exactly, they similarly profess to be the party of morality? When in actuality they have no problems endorsing murder by supporting the tobacco industry, the NRA, Big Polluters, and gas chambers.

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

 

[spentagn]

But proponents such as Bush claim to be Christian.

Claim? You 'claim' to be black. You 'claim' to be a lesbian? How can you question another's convictions?

 

[Sushi X]

i could'nt wait to jump in on this one. i had to read through all 500 replies, or so it seemed.

ryan, you want to talk about mental health, let's talk. in fact let's bring in someone who knows more about it than you. me. yep, me. why? i am clinically depressed. i've been institutionalized by my own power. that's right i got my self put into a hospital for 3 days then went to the outpatient program for the next 6 weeks or so. i've been to couseling since. when asked why i wanted to be admitted, i simply said to get the clouds out of my head so i could think and act rationally. i took responsibility for my own sickness ryan, i got help. i realized what was going on as did she but she chose to ignore it. you yelp about women's mental healt, what about men's. men are more likely to commit mass murders when they go clinically insane but i guess they are less important. depression is not something to mess around with. Yates has admitted responsibility to the murders and thus by law she can recieve the death penalty and i think she should.

getting off mental health for a moment, let's look at the death penalty from a christians perspective. our government is a sovereign establishment in which christians are commanded to obey and to respect. since our government has chosen the death penalty as a form of last resort punishment for convicted murderors then that is fine by me. basically if the government feels capital punishment is necessary then i trust them enough to go ahead with it. frankly i wish they'd bring back public hanging like they used to do in the old days. you hang someone let them stay there all day so people can actually see what will happen to them if they commit murder there will be less violent crimes. so in summary i am for the death penalty as our sovreign government has chosen to make it a form of punishment and i feel it's a better deterant than leaving them in prison for life.

would God want us to kill? no, but it's not us killing. she did the killing, she's been found guilty with undisputed evidence and thus she should be punished. keeping her alive for studying is not the answer, she aint gonna tell anyone anything helpfull. she'll spout some crap out of her arse just to make people happy and some bleeding heart libs are gonna cry let her go and then she's back on the street and may procreate again, God forbid she ever have another child. give her the death penalty and let God be her final judge period.

did any of you libs hear the story behind this act? one of those boys dug his fingernails into the tile trying to claw his way out of harms way, he was the oldest and he fought hand and foot to stay alive but he lost in the end. and where's the sympathy for the father who was doing what he needed to do, work and support his family. the man's life is in the crapper now cause his psycho wife killed all of their children. ryan, let's see how you approach this one. tell me, why don't you have any compassion for the father? i know you are the all high and enlightened one so you must know that logically the father is the final victim in this case. surely you must realize that people have a harder time executing a woman which you liberal types should think it's just as easy seeing the equal rights and all.

 

[RyanH]

i could'nt wait to jump in on this one. i had to read through all 500 replies, or so it seemed.

ryan, you want to talk about mental health, let's talk. in fact let's bring in someone who knows more about it than you. me. yep, me. why? i am clinically depressed. i've been institutionalized by my own power. that's right i got my self put into a hospital for 3 days then went to the outpatient program for the next 6 weeks or so. i've been to couseling since. when asked why i wanted to be admitted, i simply said to get the clouds out of my head so i could think and act rationally. i took responsibility for my own sickness ryan, i got help. i realized what was going on as did she but she chose to ignore it. you yelp about women's mental healt, what about men's. men are more likely to commit mass murders when they go clinically insane but i guess they are less important. depression is not something to mess around with. Yates has admitted responsibility to the murders and thus by law she can recieve the death penalty and i think she should.

getting off mental health for a moment, let's look at the death penalty from a christians perspective. our government is a sovereign establishment in which christians are commanded to obey and to respect. since our government has chosen the death penalty as a form of last resort punishment for convicted murderors then that is fine by me. basically if the government feels capital punishment is necessary then i trust them enough to go ahead with it. frankly i wish they'd bring back public hanging like they used to do in the old days. you hang someone let them stay there all day so people can actually see what will happen to them if they commit murder there will be less violent crimes. so in summary i am for the death penalty as our sovreign government has chosen to make it a form of punishment and i feel it's a better deterant than leaving them in prison for life.

would God want us to kill? no, but it's not us killing. she did the killing, she's been found guilty with undisputed evidence and thus she should be punished. keeping her alive for studying is not the answer, she aint gonna tell anyone anything helpfull. she'll spout some crap out of her arse just to make people happy and some bleeding heart libs are gonna cry let her go and then she's back on the street and may procreate again, God forbid she ever have another child. give her the death penalty and let God be her final judge period.

did any of you libs hear the story behind this act? one of those boys dug his fingernails into the tile trying to claw his way out of harms way, he was the oldest and he fought hand and foot to stay alive but he lost in the end. and where's the sympathy for the father who was doing what he needed to do, work and support his family. the man's life is in the crapper now cause his psycho wife killed all of their children. ryan, let's see how you approach this one. tell me, why don't you have any compassion for the father? i know you are the all high and enlightened one so you must know that logically the father is the final victim in this case. surely you must realize that people have a harder time executing a woman which you liberal types should think it's just as easy seeing the equal rights and all.

SushiX--
First, I respect the fact that you overcame your mental illness. But, unfortunately, many people simply do not have the resources to get help or people around them to guide them in the direction of help.

Munchasen Syndrome and Post Pardum depression are particularly horrifying mental illness because those illnesses harm our nation's children. I do not discriminate on the basis of which gender has the mental illenss.

Mental health is important for all Americans, both men and women; black and white, the poor and the rich. That's why the government should make healthcare a right, not a luxury.

Ryan.

 

[Warik]

And how do you determine that you have "absolute proof?"

For starters - "I DID IT! I KILLED ALL OF MY CHILDREN BY DROWNING THEM IN THE BATHTUB! IT WAS ME! I DID IT!"

 

[Sushi X]

it is a right. i go to the state mental health dept. well i need to go back anyway to see the doctor for an update. but back to my point, many states have mental health facilities funded by state dollars to provide people like myself with mental health care. i can even get meds from them for 5 bucks. now if you have insurance, which i don't, they will charge you insurance company for each visit with the doctor, nurse(med check), and a counselor. i gladly support something like that. it's a true blessing.

now that i've cooled down a bit, i can sit back and retstate some of my points. for one not all christians are for the death penalty, i'm for it if there is enough proof to show the person did it. timothy mcvaigh(sp) deserved it. maybe they can observe the woman for a time then give her the chair. she's got to pay for her crime. the mental health issue is way overused in the courtroom. in this case it's a factor but she still has to pay for her crimes. even if the government does nothing about it God will judge her for it in the end.

 

[brainiac]

Logic has no place in this case. Her act was horrid. Inhumane. God hasn't told me His views on this. Yet.

Well acording to her religion, you must also figure that simply because she had unquestionable faith she would hypothetically still go to heaven. Yeah. Sign me up for that logic.

 

[RyanH]

For starters - "I DID IT! I KILLED ALL OF MY CHILDREN BY DROWNING THEM IN THE BATHTUB! IT WAS ME! I DID IT!"

Haven't you heard of coerced cofessions? Always a possibility in other many criminal cases.

Of course Mrs. Yates is guilty of being mentally insane, but what would you do, make a law stating that only those who confess die at the hands of our government. Law needs a little more consistency.

 

[spentagn]

Well acording to her religion, you must also figure that simply because she had unquestionable faith she would hypothetically still go to heaven. Yeah. Sign me up for that logic.

Only if God chooses to forgive her. That is up to Him.

 

[strongchick]

Haven't you heard of coerced cofessions? Always a possibility in other many criminal cases.

Front page account in my city's newspaper of an overturned confession...lead to freedom of the accused. DNA check turns out it wasn't him, but they wouldn't even check the DNA for years until he got a high profile attorney.

 

[Warik]

Haven't you heard of coerced cofessions? Always a possibility in other many criminal cases.

Haven't you heard of: "Shit, he's right. Maybe I should stop bringing up 'what ifs' until I have something hard to go on."

Hard fact - she confessed.
Hard fact #2 - she's claiming she was ill, instead of claiming she is not guilty. Innocent people don't say "I did it, but I was nuts."

This case is full of shit. She's guilty, she admitted it, and she needs to either die or live in a cell for the rest of her life.

End of story. I'm going to bed.

-Warik

 

[RyanH]

it is a right. i go to the state mental health dept. well i need to go back anyway to see the doctor for an update. but back to my point, many states have mental health facilities funded by state dollars to provide people like myself with mental health care. i can even get meds from them for 5 bucks. now if you have insurance, which i don't, they will charge you insurance company for each visit with the doctor, nurse(med check), and a counselor. i gladly support something like that. it's a true blessing.

.

But did you also have 5 screaming kids closing in around you, as Mrs. Yates did? Or did you have a disloyal, uncaring, neglectful husband who was out playing while you were home, mentally ill, with 5 children in your care?

If Mrs. Yates dies, so should Mr. Yates. He is equally as culpable and blameworthy as is Mrs. Yates. He recognized the problem his wife was having, and did nothing to help her.

He, in a sense, aided and abetted the murder.

 

[brainiac]

Claim? You 'claim' to be black. You 'claim' to be a lesbian? How can you question another's convictions?

Do you know what a bold faced lie is? When a man is faced with the prospect of such extreme power he will say his mother worshippped the devil if it will get him anywhere.

 

[thefantom1]

Of course Mrs. Yates is guilty of being mentally insane, but what would you do, make a law stating that only those who confess die at the hands of our government. Law needs a little more consistency.

Hmmmmm... I didn't know she was found mentally insane.... but that is only a doctor's "practicing" opinion... and why does she have to be insane to do what she did?? Can't she just be a bad person??? Are all bad people who commit violent crimes "insane" then??? Once found guilty there is no other punishment acceptable except for death.........

 

[RyanH]

Haven't you heard of: "Shit, he's right. Maybe I should stop bringing up 'what ifs' until I have something hard to go on."

Hard fact - she confessed.
Hard fact #2 - she's claiming she was ill, instead of claiming she is not guilty. Innocent people don't say "I did it, but I was nuts."

This case is full of shit. She's guilty, she admitted it, and she needs to either die or live in a cell for the rest of her life.

End of story. I'm going to bed.

-Warik

The law does not consider whether you are mentally ill now, only if you were acting under an insane delusion at the time of the murder. She was mentally ill at the time of the murders.

Whether she is mentally ill now is irrelevant for purposes of whether she's not guilty by reason of insanity.

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

The law does not consider whether you are mentally ill now, only if you were acting under an insane delusion at the time of the murder. She was mentally ill at the time of the murders.

And you can prove this how? Was there a doctor at her home while she was murdering her kids? By you conclusion, the minute she is done, her mental state is no longer considered.

Public hanging?

 

[spentagn]

DO YOU KNOW WHAT A BOLD FACED LIE IS? When a man is faced with the prospect of such extreme power he will say his mother worshippped the devil if it will get him anywhere.

Do you know what faith is?

 

[RyanH]

And you can prove this how? Was there a doctor at her home while she was murdering her kids? By you conclusion, the minute she is done, her mental state is no longer considered.

Public hanging?

That's right. The law is more focused on your mental condition at the time of the murders as opposed to your mental condition now. Mrs. Yates is mentally ill and she'll have no problems proving it. The question is whether the jury is wise enough to listen to the Doctors and the Medical Experts, or will the jury allow rage and irrationality to take over?

 

[Sushi X]

no i did not have kids closing in around me or an unfaithfull no good spouse. these are assumptions. how do you know her kids were loud and disorderly? how do you know her husband went out drinking and playin instead and negecting her? you don't. you made an assumption to further you point hus invalidating your argument that the husband is partially to blame.

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

That's right. The law is more focused on your mental condition at the time of the murders as opposed to your mental condition now. Mrs. Yates is mentally ill and she'll have no problems proving it. The question is whether the jury is wise enough to listen to the Doctors and the Medical Experts, or will the jury allow rage and irrationality to take over?

Once again, how can you prove that a person was mentally ill DURING the crime. I ask again, was there a doctor on hand running tests during the murder?

 

[RyanH]

no i did not have kids closing in around me or an unfaithfull no good spouse. these are assumptions. how do you know her kids were loud and disorderly? how do you know her husband went out drinking and playin instead and negecting her? you don't. you made an assumption to further you point hus invalidating your argument that the husband is partially to blame.

I never said that the children were responsible for their own deaths. They in NO WAY were. But, her husband knew of her mental condition for years, and continued procreating with her, and leaving her to care for 5 children. The pressure on Mrs. Yates along with her tragic mental illness caused her to SNAP.

Where was her husband? Playing Golf? Meeting business client for a nice dinner.

Once you take the vow of marriage, those vows require that you are no longer just out for your own interest, but for your spouse as well. Mr Yates violated his duties by being a poor husband, a poor father, and by neglecting his wife in her desperate time of need..

 

[RyanH]

Once again, how can you prove that a person was mentally ill DURING the crime. I ask again, was there a doctor on hand running tests during the murder?

There are many, many good and wise Doctors that can usually determine mental insanity. That's not our job.

 

[brainiac]

Do you know what faith is?

Faith: (def) Faith is the commitment of one's consciousness to beliefs for which no one has sensory evidence or rational proof. Faith is the equation of feeling without knowledge. Or you could also call it life after death optimism. Depends on what spin you prefer.

Sorry for the caps. I actually enjoy these lively debates and get a little to harsh or "amped" sometimes...

 

[Sushi X]

i never sauid you said that.

how do you know where he was and what he was doing. you can't trust her statement seeing she can't think clearly anyway. she can lie to save her own butt. he was busy working 40, 50 or more hours a week for NASA trying to earn a living for his family. detecting mental illness is not that easy in some cases. she can put on one good act, i did at times, to throw people off. if he did know then i would throw some responsibility his way but that can't be determined. i'm not too conserned, God will be the final judge in this case and that's fine by me. one less thing to stress over.

 

[brainiac]

Here is something that refers to a part of her condition at the time she flipped out. She is not in this picture(see link) but it is part of the same problem. I partially blame the drug companies. This is based on what I was told by someone who should know. Oh-and the "web designer" they refer to is my older brother so I have seen some of this up close.

http://www.namiscc.org/newsletters/August01/PaxilLawsuit.htm

 

[RyanH]

Well, I've now grown tired of arguing logic as well as the truth, when so many others refuse to recognize it.

Thus, I'll sign off now to read, but remember, you're only as good as your deeds.

Ryan.

 

[Golfer18--old]

Well, I've now grown tired of arguing logic as well as the truth, when so many others refuse to recognize it.

Thus, I'll sign off now to read, but remember, you're only as good as your deeds.

Ryan.

I despise you. im not joking or flaming. I really do dislike you.

 

[spentagn]

I don't care about the caps. It's annoying to read, that's all. My personal beliefs won't allow me to question another's faith, or lack thereof. Therefore, I have a hard time accepting it when others do so. There, I think I said that kindly enough.

 

[brainiac]

My personal beliefs won't allow me to question another's faith, or lack thereof.

We are at a point in the world's developement where, imo, we should question everything.

 

[spentagn]

We are at a point in the world's developement where, imo, we should question everything.

Good luck.

 

[Your_Moms_Kneepads]

How can she be helped? She fucking killed all of her kids! She needs to die. Someone else who is mentally ill that hasnt drown all of their offspring that can actually be helped maybe ?

 

[casavant]

Her husand, society's failure to understand these types of mental issues, and Mrs. Yate's illness killed those 5 children.

No more, no less.

This is fucking bullshit. On the bright side, every time I do something really shitty or stupid, I'll pm you and you can give me ideas on who else to blame.

 

[FreakMonster]

And Frackal, what do we do when this tragic circumstances lurks its ugly head again.....again, and again. Ultimately we're going to have to deal with the problem instead of the effect.....the question is how many mentally troubled women will we slaughter before we finally ask...."why are they doing what they do?'

Ryan H,
What makes you think this is such a problem with millions of women in the United States?

When was the last time a woman killed her child because of post partum depression and how often does this happen?

I'd say very little. There is no excuse and she should be punished not put in some mental hospital.

FACT:
Approximately 10 percent of mothers in America experience postpartum depression, and psychosis happens in about half of those cases.

 

[casavant]

Please tell us how you possibly know? I have truth on my side, medical science, and you, well you seem to have hatred on your side. Is it right what Mrs. Yates did to her children? No. Is it right for Mrs. Yates to go free? No. But right now, most people are thinking with their emotions, as opposed to logic:

Post-Pardum depression, Munchasen Syndrome cause women to do extremely irration, psychotic things: such as murdering your children, when normally the mother would have never.

"But for" the post-pardum depression those children would still be alive.

But, as you well know---- it's always harder to think than to feel.

So, if I suffer from abnormally high amounts of testosterone, or an overactive amygdala, I'm not fully responsible for my actions either?

What about Dahmer as well as many other murderers- I'm sure you could find some brain patterns in some of those guys that aren't completely normal. Where do you draw the line?

 

[casavant]

And Frackal, what do we do when this tragic circumstances lurks its ugly head again.....again, and again. Ultimately we're going to have to deal with the problem instead of the effect.....the question is how many mentally troubled women will we slaughter before we finally ask...."why are they doing what they do?'

There will always be shitty people in this world.

 

[FreakMonster]

More statistics on Postpartum Psychosis which is probably what she had:

Postpartum Psychosis:

This illness affects 1 mother in 1000. It is the most serious of the postpartum disorders and the most rare. However, it needs immediate attention. The following symptoms are associated with this disorder.

debilitating confusion
hallucinations
rapid swings of mood
insomnia
agitation
delusions (frequently involving the baby)
paranoia
disorganization of thought and behavior.

 

[casavant]

But did you also have 5 screaming kids closing in around you, as Mrs. Yates did? Or did you have a disloyal, uncaring, neglectful husband who was out playing while you were home, mentally ill, with 5 children in your care?

If Mrs. Yates dies, so should Mr. Yates. He is equally as culpable and blameworthy as is Mrs. Yates. He recognized the problem his wife was having, and did nothing to help her.

He, in a sense, aided and abetted the murder.

You make me sick. I spit in your face.

 

[FreakMonster]

Let's see RyanH, THIS IS THE REASON SHE SHOULD NOT BE GOING TO A MENTAL HOSPITAL!!!!!

Dangers associated with the insanity defense are striking some chords with the folk in Bangor, Maine. They think back to 1954, when the then 24-year-old Constance Fisher drowned three of her children in the bathtub -- Richard, 6, Daniel, 4, and Deborah, 1. Fisher was found not guilty by reason of insanity and spent five years at a mental institution, during which time according to media reports her husband Carl Fisher petitioned vociferously
for her release.

Then tragedy struck again. According to the Bangor Daily News, "In 1966, for the second time in his life, Carl Fisher, then 33, returned home from his job at Maine Central Railroad to find that his wife had once again killed all of their children. The children were the same ages as their first three -- Kathleen, 6, Michael, 4, and Nathalie, 9 months. All had been drowned in the
bathtub."

There was yet still more tragedy to come. Again according to the Bangor Daily News, "Fisher remained at Augusta Mental Health Institute until October 1973, when at the age of 44 she walked away from the hospital. Officials were concerned she was suicidal. Her body was found five days later. She had drowned in the Kennebec River."


We live in a culture where many people play the so-called "blame game," a tragic activity where nobody ever wants to accept the consequences for their actions. Kill your babies, get a lawyer, and blame the action on postpartum depression so bad that it made you insane. Get in your car drunk and run over a family out for an evening stroll and blame it on mental illness. End up homeless by refusing to work and blame your predicament on your experience in Vietnam, an angry mother, an abusive father or poor potty training.

So what IS the answer? Well, we could start by calling a halt to the "blame game." I don't think anyone would question that both Andrea Yates and Constance Fisher were troubled. But so troubled that they had to murder their children? Did anyone MAKE them commit those heinous acts? I say no, and with that in mind our justice system needs to take corresponding action. Such steps will result in Andrea Yates facing her maker SOONER rather than LATER!

 

[saint808]

anyboy from the old usenet groups here? If so i am mentioning Hitler...

 

[manny78]

I hate to say it because the thought of a 7y/o boy- drowning.. makes me sick to my stomach--

But killing her isnt a solution to the problem at hand-- Ms Yates was hospitalized for depression during the month following the birth of her daughter and again in May before the June murders... she obviously did not recieve the treatment she needed- how is it that her doctors did not see that she was not stable... something is wrong... she is to blame.. but she needs serious mental help.. not death...

killing her will put an end to her mental illness, trust me on this one

 

[manny78]

Yes it will- but what about others with the same disorder-- should we kill them too? to nip it in the bud?

as long as they dont kill anybody there's no reason to kill them....

 

[Sushi X]

manny has spoken.

she knew she had problems, she ignored it and thus killed her kids. blame not her husband, he was doing what he needed to be doing. he took care of all of them and worked to pay the bills, ect. i hardly think he had time go to play seeing her works for NASA and more than likely 50+ hours a week.

 

[gwl9dta4]

Let's see RyanH, THIS IS THE REASON SHE SHOULD NOT BE GOING TO A MENTAL HOSPITAL!!!!!

Dangers associated with the insanity defense are striking some chords with the folk in Bangor, Maine. They think back to 1954, when the then 24-year-old Constance Fisher drowned three of her children in the bathtub -- Richard, 6, Daniel, 4, and Deborah, 1. Fisher was found not guilty by reason of insanity and spent five years at a mental institution, during which time according to media reports her husband Carl Fisher petitioned vociferously
for her release.

Then tragedy struck again. According to the Bangor Daily News, "In 1966, for the second time in his life, Carl Fisher, then 33, returned home from his job at Maine Central Railroad to find that his wife had once again killed all of their children. The children were the same ages as their first three -- Kathleen, 6, Michael, 4, and Nathalie, 9 months. All had been drowned in the
bathtub."

There was yet still more tragedy to come. Again according to the Bangor Daily News, "Fisher remained at Augusta Mental Health Institute until October 1973, when at the age of 44 she walked away from the hospital. Officials were concerned she was suicidal. Her body was found five days later. She had drowned in the Kennebec River."


We live in a culture where many people play the so-called "blame game," a tragic activity where nobody ever wants to accept the consequences for their actions. Kill your babies, get a lawyer, and blame the action on postpartum depression so bad that it made you insane. Get in your car drunk and run over a family out for an evening stroll and blame it on mental illness. End up homeless by refusing to work and blame your predicament on your experience in Vietnam, an angry mother, an abusive father or poor potty training.

So what IS the answer? Well, we could start by calling a halt to the "blame game." I don't think anyone would question that both Andrea Yates and Constance Fisher were troubled. But so troubled that they had to murder their children? Did anyone MAKE them commit those heinous acts? I say no, and with that in mind our justice system needs to take corresponding action. Such steps will result in Andrea Yates facing her maker SOONER rather than LATER!

Yes, you are 200% correct sir. I applaud your answer, it's everything i wanted to say and more.



Sincerely