How much cardio do YOU do during a clean bulk, and what type?

[|D_J^B_J|]

I'm currently on a clean bulk, and this morning I woke up half an hour earlier to do low-intensity (65% of max HR) fasted cardio for 30 minutes for the first time. Prior to today, I has been lifting weights 3-4 days per week and doing HIIT 3 days a week (never on the same day as weights or on an empty stomach).

From everything I have read, HIIT burns more calories but burns glycogen as well as fat and fasted cardio in the fat-burning zone burns stored body fat and negligible amounts of muscle.

My question is a personal one, as many people seem to have different opinions on the low intensity fasted cardio v HIIT debate...
So, how often do YOU do cardio whilst on a bulk, for how long does each session go for, what type do you do (i.e. fasted/HIIT, etc) and how does it affect your ability to gain muscle?

Thanks for your help

 

[|D_J^B_J|]

Anyone prepared to help me out with their opinions on which form of cardio is ideal for using the least amount of muscle and burning the most amount of BF?

 

[CrazyRussian]

I believe that HIIT is most effective in terms of burning the least muscle.

A number of explanations exist for the greater amounts of fat loss achieved by HIIT. First, a large body of evidence shows that high-intensity protocols, notably intermittent protocols, result in significantly greater post-exercise energy expenditure and fat utilization than low- or moderate-intensity protocols. Other research has found significantly elevated blood free-fatty-acid (FFA) concentrations or increased utilization of fat during recovery from resistance training (which is a form of HIIT). Finally, a number of studies have found high-intensity exercise to suppress appetite more than lower intensities and reduce saturated fat intake.

Overall, the evidence suggests that HIIT is the most efficient method for achieving fat loss. However, HIIT carries a greater risk of injury and is physically and psychologically demanding (10), making low- and moderate-intensity, continuous exercise the best choice for individuals that are unmotivated or contraindicated for high-intensity exercise.

View the whole thing here:

http://www.wsu.edu/~strength/hiit.htm

 

[|D_J^B_J|]

So doing HIIT for 20 - 30 mins 3 days a week and 3 - 4 days of weight training won't compromise my goal to gain muscle mass?

More/contrasting opinions would also be appreciated.

BTW, the link doesn't work.

 

[Slyder190]

30 min cardio 3x a week on an empty stomach. Moderate pace. Seems to work well.

 

[SPORT SCIENTIST]

So doing HIIT for 20 - 30 mins 3 days a week and 3 - 4 days of weight training won't compromise my goal to gain muscle mass?

More/contrasting opinions would also be appreciated.

BTW, the link doesn't work.

Personally, I got to 220lbs naturally doing 1 1/2hrs - 2 1/2hrs of rowing 6 days a week. I really think that it depends more on your diet and pre/post exercise supplementation.

HIT will result in increased output of growth hormone (as a result of the increased intensity) - however training like a sprinter, doing short burst sprints, with long rest inbetween would be the most effective method (even greater GH output) - just look at the physiques of sprinters- that sounds like what you're after!

p.s. a study by Jeukendrup showed that the most effective way to boost your fitness is by doing 30 second all out bursts of activity, with 4 minutes rest inbetween (for a total of 8 sets) - I did a paper on improving 40km cycling time trial performance - and for various reasons including increased efficiency of blood borne enzymes - this was the most effetive way of increasing your fitnes in the shortest time (performed more frequently by athletes when they want to peak for an upcoming event) - also fits in with the application that you are requesting. - can post the data if you require.

In addition, sprinting in its self increses power - it is a plyometric exercise.

Also, by , combining specific plyometric exercises (like death jumps, squat jumps, alternate leg bounds, fast feet) in a cardiovascular manner -you will boost your power and strength on all your lifts - powerlifter now do plyos for this reason.

If you must do traditional cardio, the treadmill has been shown to be the worst choice- it is more catabolic than other forms of cardio. The least catabolic method of exercise is rowing (it is less catabolic, as your body is supported in the siting position, also improves power) - and if it is your aim to be physically fit (as opposed to better at running), the rowing machine is superior, as it involves more muscles, the muscle tissue thus being more metabolically active for the same intensity of effort. Better on your joints too, especially if you get big.

One additional thing. Unlike running, you get better at rowing, as you get bigger- it is more motivating to see yourself improving as you gain mass, rather than getting worse (running) - this is partly to do with increases in power, but mostly due to an increased total capacity to take up oxygen (running is compromised by weight, as this is factored into you're ability to run quickly) - with rowing VO2 (maximum volume of oxygen im ml) is of importance as opposed to VO2 max (volume of oxygen taken up into the muscles divided by weight in kg squared - gives ml/kg squared)

In summary do 1 long easy row/ week to maintain an aerobic base, then do 8 30second all out burst on the rowing machine, separated by 4 minutes of rest, on your other cardio days. Drop the long row, if lean muscle is your primary aim.
Hope this helps

 

[|D_J^B_J|]

"You must spread some Karma around before giving it to SPORT SCIENTIST again."

Great info here. Thanks!

Personally, I got to 220lbs naturally doing 1 1/2hrs - 2 1/2hrs of rowing 6 days a week. I really think that it depends more on your diet and pre/post exercise supplementation.

Well, I am an ectomorph, which is why I need to be careful with the amount of cardiovascular activity I do. I don't think I could gain a significant amount of LBM if I did 9 - 15 hrs of cardio a week! Another problem is that I am addicted to training. It's as though I need to do something every day whether it be weight training, HIIT or light cardio. This becomes a problem when my muscles are fatigued/injured and I am unable to lift as I end up doing cardio, which is not consistent with my goals of gaining LBM and minimal amounts of BF.

At the moment, my post cardio/HIT nutrition consists of medium GI carbs such as a serve of brown rice (in order to secrete a moderate amount of insulin from the pancreas and to suppress cortisol levels) along with a protein source such as whey, egg-whites or tuna. It seems to be working well so far, although I am open to advice/criticism.

p.s. a study by Jeukendrup showed that the most effective way to boost your fitness is by doing 30 second all out bursts of activity, with 4 minutes rest inbetween (for a total of 8 sets) - I did a paper on improving 40km cycling time trial performance - and for various reasons including increased efficiency of blood borne enzymes - this was the most effetive way of increasing your fitnes in the shortest time (performed more frequently by athletes when they want to peak for an upcoming event) - also fits in with the application that you are requesting. - can post the data if you require.

Sounds like an interesting study. Posting the data would be appreciated.

In addition, sprinting in its self increses power - it is a plyometric exercise.

Also, by , combining specific plyometric exercises (like death jumps, squat jumps, alternate leg bounds, fast feet) in a cardiovascular manner -you will boost your power and strength on all your lifts - powerlifter now do plyos for this reason.

If you must do traditional cardio, the treadmill has been shown to be the worst choice- it is more catabolic than other forms of cardio. The least catabolic method of exercise is rowing (it is less catabolic, as your body is supported in the siting position, also improves power) - and if it is your aim to be physically fit (as opposed to better at running), the rowing machine is superior, as it involves more muscles, the muscle tissue thus being more metabolically active for the same intensity of effort. Better on your joints too, especially if you get big.

One additional thing. Unlike running, you get better at rowing, as you get bigger- it is more motivating to see yourself improving as you gain mass, rather than getting worse (running) - this is partly to do with increases in power, but mostly due to an increased total capacity to take up oxygen (running is compromised by weight, as this is factored into you're ability to run quickly) - with rowing VO2 (maximum volume of oxygen im ml) is of importance as opposed to VO2 max (volume of oxygen taken up into the muscles divided by weight in kg squared - gives ml/kg squared)

In summary do 1 long easy row/ week to maintain an aerobic base, then do 8 30second all out burst on the rowing machine, separated by 4 minutes of rest, on your other cardio days. Drop the long row, if lean muscle is your primary aim.
Hope this helps

Okay, I think I will do 3 cardio sessions a week. The first will be (HIIT) rowing as you have described above. The second will be pad boxing with a trainer for 30 minutes (been doing this for years, and enjoying it) and the third will be either (HIIT) cycling with twelve 30 second bursts (increasing in resistance with each burst) separated by 45 seconds of rest, HIIT rowing as above, or a 30 minute row or swim at a slow pace (depending on factors such as muscle fatigue, etc).

 

[pintoca]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to SPORT SCIENTIST again.

Nice post dude. I reckon you are involved in this field more than in amateur level, right?

My body always told me he didn't like the threadmill....

 

[JKurz1]

Nice posts..........when cutting, I do 40 mins fasted cardio at a moderate pace (65%) and it helps me to get down to 6-7%..........when bulking, I do 25 minutes fasted cardio on the elliptical, but more like HIIT........30 seconds heavy resit. sprints, followed by 30 sec light resistance for the entire 25 mins........then I do another 15 mins after my PM training..........this allows me to keep my bf under 11%........I do this everyday.........

HOWEVER, it's 90% diet...........

 

[SPORT SCIENTIST]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to SPORT SCIENTIST again.

Nice post dude. I reckon you are involved in this field more than in amateur level, right?

Well, I got a first in Sport and Exercise Science with Nutrition from the University of Westminster - had ambitions to be a Sports development Officer, working in a National Sports Development centre with top athletes.
Never really worked out - I took the easy life, working in a gym, whilst writing a few papers in my spare time - some published for Peak Performance magazine. I'm now in Thailand to adopt my stepson (Bon, 5) -my wife is Thai. I have another son too Isaac, 1 year 10 months.
I am now setting up a sport supplement company, and have quit a job teaching English. This means I have a lot of free time - I only discovered the site recently - it's nice to give people advice and use my science brain again!
-Well there's my life story for you!

p.s. ld - I looked for my paper and couldn't find it - 2 kids, things often get lost! - I'll have another look again tomorrow and post the extract - I'll be pissed if I can't find it, as I don't have a backup copy of it in Thailand.

 

[JKurz1]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to SPORT SCIENTIST again.

Nice post dude. I reckon you are involved in this field more than in amateur level, right?

Well, I got a first in Sport and Exercise Science with Nutrition from the University of Westminster - had ambitions to be a Sports development Officer, working in a National Sports Development centre with top athletes.
Never really worked out - I took the easy life, working in a gym, whilst writing a few papers in my spare time - some published for Peak Performance magazine. I'm now in Thailand to adopt my stepson (Bon, 5) -my wife is Thai. I have another son too Isaac, 1 year 10 months.
I am now setting up a sport supplement company, and have quit a job teaching English. This means I have a lot of free time - I only discovered the site recently - it's nice to give people advice and use my science brain again!
-Well there's my life story for you!

p.s. ld - I looked for my paper and couldn't find it - 2 kids, things often get lost! - I'll have another look again tomorrow and post the extract - I'll be pissed if I can't find it, as I don't have a backup copy of it in Thailand.

good......maybe you can solve this.........my bro eats a decent size meal about 5 mins before he crashes at night due to his late training.......he then feels it's a MUST to do cardio first thing when he wakes to "burn" of the fat......I'm pretty sure his meal is a solid protein source (maybe a tub of cottage cheese, prob. 5-6 large handfulls of nuts and then washes it down with a thick casein shake...........is his insane?

 

[tzan]

Nice posts..........when cutting, I do 40 mins fasted cardio at a moderate pace (65%) and it helps me to get down to 6-7%..........when bulking, I do 25 minutes fasted cardio on the elliptical, but more like HIIT........30 seconds heavy resit. sprints, followed by 30 sec light resistance for the entire 25 mins........then I do another 15 mins after my PM training..........this allows me to keep my bf under 11%........I do this everyday.........

HOWEVER, it's 90% diet...........

Your like me in the sense that even when you "bulk" you try and stay fairly lean?? Just curious to see how much you weigh and how many cals you take in when you run your bulking diet??

 

[JKurz1]

Your like me in the sense that even when you "bulk" you try and stay fairly lean?? Just curious to see how much you weigh and how many cals you take in when you run your bulking diet??

I;m about 190......never counted a calorie in my life........just know when to add and subtract.......

 

[tzan]

I;m about 190......never counted a calorie in my life........just know when to add and subtract.......

Your lucky, it's a gift. If I don't have my shit completely mapped out I can't sleep. It's like a freakin disease I tell ya.

 

[|D_J^B_J|]

Nice posts..........when cutting, I do 40 mins fasted cardio at a moderate pace (65%) and it helps me to get down to 6-7%..........when bulking, I do 25 minutes fasted cardio on the elliptical, but more like HIIT........30 seconds heavy resit. sprints, followed by 30 sec light resistance for the entire 25 mins........then I do another 15 mins after my PM training..........this allows me to keep my bf under 11%........I do this everyday.........

Dude, that's a lot of cardio you do when trying to bulk. I'm assuming you're not an ectomorph (otherwise you wouldn't be able to bulk while doing so much cardio), so are you more of a meso or an endo?

 

[|D_J^B_J|]

Your lucky, it's a gift. If I don't have my shit completely mapped out I can't sleep. It's like a freakin disease I tell ya.

I know the feeling... I'm sure you have a trusty set of digital scales in the kitchen as well?

 

[SPORT SCIENTIST]

good......maybe you can solve this.........my bro eats a decent size meal about 5 mins before he crashes at night due to his late training.......he then feels it's a MUST to do cardio first thing when he wakes to "burn" of the fat......I'm pretty sure his meal is a solid protein source (maybe a tub of cottage cheese, prob. 5-6 large handfulls of nuts and then washes it down with a thick casein shake...........is his insane?

Does he foam at the mouth?

 

[SPORT SCIENTIST]

Sounds like an interesting study. Posting the data would be appreciated

I finally found my work! - so I thought I may as well post it, just in case you check this thread again. Here is an extract from my paper (I have also included info on a 4 minute interval, with 1.5mins rest, as that was also shown to be highly effective at improving fitness - they were the 2 most efective out of the 5 interval training schedules that were analysed)

S4:
Training for longer intervals produces significant amounts of lactic acid, streassing the anaerobic pathways. Stroke volume is increased, with improved muscular development and economy (Hill 1993). Similar to LIN, this type of training elicits the ability to sustain high steady state power output, with increased power output at lactate threshold. An improvement in resistance to fatigue at race pace is promoted, with a development in the ability to tolerate lactate and buffer hydrogen ions. In addition, by exercising at approximately race pace, neuromuscular recruitment is improved over the specific power output (Jeukendrup 2003)

S30
Training for shorter intervals, does not significantly invoke lactic acid build up, with the ATP PCR system being heavily relied upon. Fast twitch muscle development is enhanced, with a development in neurological recruitment (Hill 1993). In the original study by Stepko, work bouts lasting 30 seconds were not expected to improve performance, as the anaerobic nature of the work was not seen as specific to the entirely anaerobic nature of a 40k time trial (Stepko 2002).
This paradox was resolved in a study by Rodas et al. who revealed that similar high intensity training prograns raised the activity of oxidative enzymes within the muscle. Rodaset al. obseved aerobic and anaerobic metabolism in active males following a short training program, involving 2 weeks of daily high intensity interval training , of which work bouts were set at two 15 second all out bouts separated by 45 seconds of rest (Rodas et al. 2000). This was proceeded by two 30 second all-out sprint work bouts, separated by 12 minutes of rest. An extra interval was added every 2 weeks, building to seven 15 second bouts and seven 30 second bouts. Tellingly, substantial increases in the activity of citrate synthase (+38%) and 3-hydroxyacyl-CoA dehydrogenase (+60%) were noted.[/B]
Changes in oxidative enzyme activity could be responsible for increased fat oxidation, with a consequential reduction in carbohydrate oxidation. It is surmised that endurance performance could be improved by implementing short duration, high intensity intervals, by way the means of a resultant fall in hydrogen ion accumulation (Hawley et al. 1997). Sprint training has been demonstrated to show a greater efect on the glycolytic capacity, than on muscle mitachondrial content, thus raising glyco(geno)lytic related enzymes, whilst improving the sarcolemma lactate transport capacity (Kubukeli et al. 2002).