HCG throughout or at the end of cycle?

[dirtyluke1]

Not looking to be jabbing HCG twice a week for 12 weeks through out my cycle hate the feeling of injecting hcg burning pain, plus the cost of it.
i understand how it prevents you from totaly shuting down if injected twice per week all the way through..........but how about if i run it at the end of my cycle......i was thinking this
cycle will be 12 weeks of tren/test/var(last 8)
so weeks 13 & 14 off
weeks 15 start pct for 4 weeks
weeks 10,11,12,13,14 HCG 500 i.u mon & thurs
weeks 15-18 clo+nol+forma-stanzol+unleashed +post cycle
so will the HCG work just a well at the end of my cycle???
suggestions?
Cheers

 

[shibs]

hcg is not supposed to be used for your pct. Here read this i pulled it from an older article by primordial performance;

"

Improper use of hcg​

Using hcg after the cycle is the least effective way to use hcg.

You see, when you're on steroids, your brain cuts off the signal to the testes, and your testes stop producing testosterone. Once this happens, your testes shutdown, start to shrink, and become unresponsive to stimulation from the brain (essentially, the testes become desensitized). This is the reason why alot of guys never recover from a steroid cycle even after using tons of hcg and SERM's -- because the testes have stayed inactive for too long and have become permanently desensitized.

Here are a list of problems you can have from waiting untill the end of a cycle to use hcg -

• High Possibility of Permanent Testicular Damage/Desensitization
• Higher hcg Dose Requirement
• Higher Conversion Rate to Estrogen

For a fast and quick recovery of testosterone production after a cycle, you must avoid the long-periods of suppression. Once your testes go unused for too long, it is virtually impossible to get them to come back full strength, no matter how much hcg you take. For more detailed information on testicular degeneration of testicular function during a steroid cycle, see this article.

hcg during cycle - The Proper use of hcg​

For any cycle longer than 6 weeks, you need to get your hands on some hcg and use it during the cycle. A small dose will keep the testes running as normal during cycle, so they can jump back on track when the cycle is over. Plus, when you use hcg during the cycle, you don't need to use it for PCT.

On-cycle hcg forces your testes to continue producing testosterone as they normally would. The trick with on-cycle hcg use is to avoid using too much, too frequently (which can also desensitize your testes the same as not using any at all!). It’s important to use just enough to stimulate the testes to produce the same amount of testosterone they would normally.

Check out the simple hcg dosing guidelines -

http://www.primordialperformance.com/images/newsletter_graphics/PCT%20for%202009/hcg-Dosing-Guidelines.jpg​

If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.​

* Every 4 days = Shoot on Monday, then on Friday, then on Tuesday, ect.

† AI - Aromatase Inhibitor (While taking 1000iu shots, I recommend 10mg/ED of Aromasin or .5mg/ED Arimidex to keep estrogen in control. Legal alternatives include Formasol and Arom-X which are also effective aromatase inhibitors. Discontinue AI 4 days after last hcg shot.)​

If you are doing the on-cycle hcg protocol it is important to discontinue hcg 2 weeks prior to AAS clearance. Therefore, when you officially start PCT you will be clean of all AAS's and will be 14 days from your last hcg shot. This allows your testes to become re-sensitized to the body's LH signal from the brain, making for a quick recovery of natural testosterone production as soon as the steroids and hcg clear the system. This is another reason why on-cycle hcg is superior, because it allows you to start recovering as soon as PCT begins.

If you aren't doing hcg on-cycle, then use hcg according to the "last 2 weeks or after the cycle" guidelines, and start it 4-5 weeks before the AAS's are expected to clear the system (Or as soon as possible if you are already past this point).

For AAS clearance times, see the table in the last section."

 

[dirtyluke1]

who said i was using it for pct?!?!! did i mention that anywhere?

 

[skaman007]

who said i was using it for pct?!?!! did i mention that anywhere?

it looks ok to me mate....i do my hcg at the end of my cycle...if i do 16 WEEK CYCLE.. I WILL START MY HCG DAY AFTER LAST JAB.....i use 2500ius each jab....eod for 4 shots in total,,thats 10000ius.the reason i use 2500ius each jab is cos ive been shutdonw for 16 weeks you need a larger amount to kickstart your balls...i know ppl will jump in AND saY ITS TOO HIGH BUT IT WAS ADVICE GIVEN OF ERIC FroM PP .same guy that wrote that article .last guy posted...4 shots of hcg AT 2500IUS AFTER A ,LONG CYCLE PRIMES THE BALLS FOR SERM PCT.it is not enough to desensitise them.when only used for 4 shots.but some prefer 1000ius eod,but then they only do 12 week cycles so its all they need.its your choice.
remember to run an anti estrogeon alongside the hcg..i usenolva at 20m g just while on the hcg...then drop it in pct and use clomid..

 

[Zyglamail]

HCG thoughout and for a few weeks after.

 

[Rekrul]

it looks ok to me mate....i do my hcg at the end of my cycle...if i do 16 WEEK CYCLE.. I WILL START MY HCG DAY AFTER LAST JAB.....i use 2500ius each jab....eod for 4 shots in total,,thats 10000ius.the reason i use 2500ius each jab is cos ive been shutdonw for 16 weeks you need a larger amount to kickstart your balls...i know ppl will jump in AND saY ITS TOO HIGH BUT IT WAS ADVICE GIVEN OF ERIC FroM PP .same guy that wrote that article .last guy posted...4 shots of hcg AT 2500IUS AFTER A ,LONG CYCLE PRIMES THE BALLS FOR SERM PCT.it is not enough to desensitise them.when only used for 4 shots.but some prefer 1000ius eod,but then they only do 12 week cycles so its all they need.its your choice.
remember to run an anti estrogeon alongside the hcg..i usenolva at 20m g just while on the hcg...then drop it in pct and use clomid..

Doesn't Eric prefer to run 250-500Iu E3D while on?

 

[ALIN]

Not looking to be jabbing HCG twice a week for 12 weeks through out my cycle hate the feeling of injecting hcg burning pain, plus the cost of it.
i understand how it prevents you from totaly shuting down if injected twice per week all the way through..........but how about if i run it at the end of my cycle......i was thinking this
cycle will be 12 weeks of tren/test/var(last 8)
so weeks 13 & 14 off
weeks 15 start pct for 4 weeks
weeks 10,11,12,13,14 HCG 500 i.u mon & thurs
weeks 15-18 clo+nol+forma-stanzol+unleashed +post cycle
so will the HCG work just a well at the end of my cycle???
suggestions?
Cheers

Use it during your cycle...500iu every 5 days works well.

 

[Strongbow]

I used 1000 iu's a week through out my cycle, and seen improved results from my last run. I would recommend using HCG throughout.

 

[RADAR]

Use it during your cycle...500iu every 5 days works well.

Agree,makes a much softer landing!

 

[Nelson Montana]

With all due respect, I disagree with much of the primordial approach.

REALITY CHECK! HCG does NOT directly prevent shutdown or even restore HPTA function!

HCG essentially artificially gets your testes producing testosterone. That's a big help while the body readjusts to functioning without an exogenous source of testosterone. Using supps like UNLEASHED and POST CYCLE help this process along. But in the end, your own body has to do what it does.

By using HCG during a cycle you're doing little than creating a tolerance to the effects that you'll need later on since you're going to be adding suppressing yourself with the next dosage of steroids.

I do think a hit of HCG would be in order if you have major ball shrinkage -- but that should be avoided in the first place.

A MUCH SMARTER approach is to use HCGENERATE to keep LH elevated and producing testosterone throughout the cycle. That's the Fadogia. Incidentally, BRIDGE ALSO contains fadogia so using that AFTER the cycle works as a continual boost to the body's natural hormonal function.

Look...a lot of this is theory. But there are smart theories and dumb theories. And too many of them are merely "easy answers" that people want to hear. Then there's a bunch of rationalizing and justifying in order to defend the perspective. But nature doesn't give a fuck about your rationalizations. It works in accord to the way it's designed. And in that regard, I believe the later apraoch makes more sense.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Hmmm... I guess I wonder why this OTC supplement is called HCGenerate. I mean essentially its a bunch of herbals(not sayin that this is a bad thing), that is keeping LH levels elevated. Isn't that what essential real HCG is doing? If you're keeping LH levels elevated then aren't you technically trying to keep your test production?

I have tried Unleashed, I have tried Nolva/Clomid, Aromasin, Sustain Alpha, Toremifane. I can tell you the easiest recovery involved using HCG during cycle and then Toremifane and The Testosterone Recovery stack from Primordial for PCT.

I do realize this is all theory. I just wish someone, would publish some REAL evidence. For now much of this is subjective. But it seems that the VAST majority of people have great success running HCG during cycle and really like primordial stuff.

Actually, the HCG and and GEN work very differently. One mimics LH production and the other produces natural LH production. (though to a lesser extent of course).

And with all due respect, although it's a good supp stack, there is nothing in the PP recovery stack that actually helps recovery of the HPTA, besides the sustain, since it blocks estrogen, but Forma stanzol is MUCH better at that.

The Endo amp has some anti catabolic nutrients ( as does BRIDGE).

Toco 8 is just vitamin E.

In all honesty, HCGen, UNLEASHED and BRIDGE blows it away.

 

[Nelson Montana]

What is the advantage of Bridge over Endoamp? I have never tried it.

Isn't there a risk with reducing estrogen too much with forma?

I'm always looking for new stuff to try. But I'm very fond of using HCG while on. What do you mean with regard to mimic vs produce?

HCG tricks the body into think that there's LH in order to start producing testiosterone. Fadogia actually increaces LH.

Forma is strong. It's best to keep it at the recomended dosage. For ongoing estrogen control look into POST CYCLE. It has natty anti e's that won't lower E too much.

BRIDGE is better than EndoAMp in many ways. It increases blood volume, much like an oral steroid, it activates GH, increases erectile function, increases energy and helps the body manufacture testosterone -- all things endo amp does not do. Both will help prevent catabolism.

 

[Zyglamail]

What do you mean with regard to mimic vs produce?

The hypothalemous produces gnrh which in turn triggers the release of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone from the pituitary which in turn cause the testes to produce test.

When you are on a cycle your body senses excess androgens and estrogens and cust back the release of gnrh which cuts back production of lh and in turn test.

HCG mimics LH so taking HCG will cause the testes to produce test even if serum test levels are already high and in the absence of gnrh and natural lh.

So there is more to being shut down that just having test shutdown, the production of grnh, fsh and lh are also shut down if you will.

Since HCG kicks the testes into producing it and of itself wont help your body produce gnrh/fsh/lh any better/faster but what it can do is make sure when you body does produce it on its own your testes are in working order so can more readily respond to the chemical signal.

Its just one element in the chain but the way I see it if I have an option to prevent atrophy, muscular or testicular, im going to do it.

 

[Rekrul]

The hypothalemous produces gnrh which in turn triggers the release of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone from the pituitary which in turn cause the testes to produce test.

When you are on a cycle your body senses excess androgens and estrogens and cust back the release of gnrh which cuts back production of lh and in turn test.

HCG mimics LH so taking HCG will cause the testes to produce test even if serum test levels are already high and in the absence of gnrh and natural lh.

So there is more to being shut down that just having test shutdown, the production of grnh, fsh and lh are also shut down if you will.

Since HCG kicks the testes into producing it and of itself wont help your body produce gnrh/fsh/lh any better/faster but what it can do is make sure when you body does produce it on its own your testes are in working order so can more readily respond to the chemical signal.

Its just one element in the chain but the way I see it if I have an option to prevent atrophy, muscular or testicular, im going to do it.

Excellent explanation. I wonder if there is any way to to directly stimulate GnRH release almost instantly, I mean obviously if you supplemented with GnRH you'd run into negative feedback in that regard too. Tricky stuff man, tricky stuff.

 

[Rekrul]

HCG tricks the body into think that there's LH in order to start producing testiosterone. Fadogia actually increaces LH.

Forma is strong. It's best to keep it at the recomended dosage. For ongoing estrogen control look into POST CYCLE. It has natty anti e's that won't lower E too much.

BRIDGE is better than EndoAMp in many ways. It increases blood volume, much like an oral steroid, it activates GH, increases erectile function, increases energy and helps the body manufacture testosterone -- all things endo amp does not do. Both will help prevent catabolism.

Wouldn't it then be optimal to run HCG while on, as this will keep you pumping so to speak and toward the end of the cycle utilize Fadogia? I mean either way you look at it, you are messing with feedback. If you stimulate LH release the body will pick up on that, and given you are utilizing exogenous androgens it will shut it back down. Whereas the HCG just keeps the boys alive.. its akin to giving a man tiny pulses of adrenaline to keep his heart rate up throughout a troublesome time vs letting him go comatose and having his hearts stop and then shock the shit out of him. Logically, it would seem to make more sense to utilize HCG while on... and then utilize something that gets your natural LH levels up again.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Wouldn't it then be optimal to run HCG while on

.................................

NO, BECAUSE IT BECOMES LESS EFFECTIVE IF ON FOR TOO LONG.


..................................


, as this will keep you pumping so to speak and toward the end of the cycle utilize Fadogia?

...................................................

NO, THE FADOGIA WILL HELP MAINTAIN HOMEOSTATIS, IF YOU HAMMER YOUR SYSTEM AND HAVE ZERO LH, THE FADOGIA WON'T BE AS EFFECTIVE.

............................................

I mean either way you look at it, you are messing with feedback.

......................................

NO, FADOGIA DOESN;T "MESS" WITH ANYTHING BECAUSE IT'S NATURAL.



...............................................


If you stimulate LH release the body will pick up on that, and given you are utilizing exogenous androgens it will shut it back down. Whereas the HCG just keeps the boys alive.. its akin to giving a man tiny pulses of adrenaline to keep his heart rate up throughout a troublesome time vs letting him go comatose and having his hearts stop and then shock the shit out of him.

......................................


THAT'S SPECIOUS THINKING -- SOUNDS GOOD, BUT IT'S WRONG.


................................................................

Logically, it would seem to make more sense to utilize HCG while on... and then utilize something that gets your natural LH levels up again.

................................

THEN WHEN YOU NEED IT THE MOST -- AS A KICKSTART, IT'LL BE LESS EFFECTIVE.

..

 

[Rekrul]

..

lol... how is something being natural going to make it potentially less harmful? I mean If these substances don't have some sort of action then they are essentially useless.

Your argument is, that herbal supplement X is great because its 'natural' and that it triggers LH release and that HCG is bad because its not 'natural' and keeps your balls alive and you will become desensitized. Yet, there is a strong likelihood that you would become desensitized by the supposed LH release while using supplement X. Furthermore, you go on to say that you are going to be messing with feedback no matter what.

You assert that you are going to desensitize the testes by using 250-500 Iu a week of HCG(this is a 'natural' level) while ON vs hammering our testes with doses 5-10x at the end of our cycle. That to me makes absolutely no sense. The logic doesn't add up.

Like I was saying before, the ideal way is to keep your balls working and prime them for LH release, which is what supplement X would be great for. Your balls won't need a kick start if you had been using hcg throughout. All you are concerned with now, is your LH release.

 

[Nelson Montana]

lol... how is something being natural going to make it potentially less harmful? I mean If these substances don't have some sort of action then they are essentially useless.

Your argument is, that herbal supplement X is great because its 'natural' and that it triggers LH release and that HCG is bad because its not 'natural' and keeps your balls alive and you will become desensitized. Yet, there is a strong likelihood that you would become desensitized by the supposed LH release while using supplement X.

........................................

WELL, I ALREADY EXPLAINED WHY IN DETAIL. YOU SEEM TO WANT TO CONTINUE DEBATING THE POINT SO THERE'S NO SENSE GOING OVER IT AGAIN.


.....................................................................

Furthermore, you go on to say that you are going to be messing with feedback no matter what.

....................................


WHERE'D I SAY THAT?


...........................................................

You assert that you are going to desensitize the testes by using 250-500 Iu a week of HCG(this is a 'natural' level)


.....................................

HOW IS THE USE OF AN EXOGENOUS COMPOUND A "NATURAL" LEVEL?


.................................................

while ON vs hammering our testes with doses 5-10x at the end of our cycle. That to me makes absolutely no sense. The logic doesn't add up.

..................................................

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS CONFUSING YOU SO I REALLY CAN'T HELP YOU. ANYONE ELSE? AM I NOT BEING CLEAR HERE? YOU DO REALIZE THAT A SINGLE LARGE DOSE OF SOMETHING HAS A VERY DIFFERENT EFFECT OF SEVERAL SMALL DOSAGES?


.......................................................................................
Like I was saying before, the ideal way is to keep your balls working and prime them for LH release, which is what supplement X would be great for. Your balls won't need a kick start if you had been using hcg throughout. All you are concerned with now, is your LH release.

.............................................................

I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING HERE.

..

 

[C.K.]

I've never run hcg and always recovered fine no crash or penis issues I wanted to run it in my next cycle but just the last 4 weeks or I'll just stick with hcgenerate

 

[dirtyluke1]

i am in the same boat bro i want to run HCG in the last 4 weeks of my cycle up to 4 days before pct to get the boys goin again what is the ideal does??

 

[skaman007]

i am in the same boat bro i want to run HCG in the last 4 weeks of my cycle up to 4 days before pct to get the boys goin again what is the ideal does??[/QU
i do hcg,last 2 weeks .whilst long esters clear at 1000 ius eod for 5 shots in total(if my cycles over 16 weeks i do 4 x2500ius e3d)but seein as you want to do it for last 4 weeks ,maybe 500ius eod.

 

[Zyglamail]

i am in the same boat bro i want to run HCG in the last 4 weeks of my cycle up to 4 days before pct to get the boys goin again what is the ideal does??

Low, just 250IU couple times a week is generally plenty. If its a super heavy cycle and your just running it for a couple weeks you could bump it up to 500IU.

 

[dirtyluke1]

okj heres my dilema a 5000Iu vial of hcg will last around 10 weeks roughly if u go 250 twice/week that 500iu /week however when refigirated the hcg only stays good in there for 30 days so basicaly u waste half the vial ....wtf?? any ideas?

 

[at(almost)ANYcost]

...use HCGENERATE to keep LH elevated and producing testosterone throughout the cycle. That's the Fadogia. Incidentally, BRIDGE ALSO contains fadogia so using that AFTER the cycle works as a continual boost to the body's natural hormonal function

Worth repeating

 

[digit0x]

okj heres my dilema a 5000Iu vial of hcg will last around 10 weeks roughly if u go 250 twice/week that 500iu /week however when refigirated the hcg only stays good in there for 30 days so basicaly u waste half the vial ....wtf?? any ideas?

60 days usually. I'm pretty sure it works even when kept longer, just may not be as effective. No harm can be done, just keep fresh powder on hand just in case.

 

[needtogetaas]

Not looking to be jabbing HCG twice a week for 12 weeks through out my cycle hate the feeling of injecting hcg burning pain, plus the cost of it.
i understand how it prevents you from totaly shuting down if injected twice per week all the way through..........but how about if i run it at the end of my cycle......i was thinking this
cycle will be 12 weeks of tren/test/var(last 8)
so weeks 13 & 14 off
weeks 15 start pct for 4 weeks
weeks 10,11,12,13,14 HCG 500 i.u mon & thurs
weeks 15-18 clo+nol+forma-stanzol+unleashed +post cycle
so will the HCG work just a well at the end of my cycle???
suggestions?
Cheers

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/hcgenerate-needto-does-again-691319.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/hcgenerate-716865.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/hcgenerate-sent-heaven-way-needto-707933.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/my-hcgenerate-experience-687243.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/hcgenerate-needto-707157.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/hcgenerate-689005.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...ate-amazing-need-some-help-advice-711743.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...w-hcgenerate-saved-yet-another-me-704063.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...ate-solve-my-problems-710985.html#post9544455
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/wow-hcgenerate-powerful-699719.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/hcgenerate-year-round-695837.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/hcgenerate-review-695755.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/props-n2bm-hcgod-like-sex-720583.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...perience-hcgenerate-formastanozol-722309.html

run hcgenerate for the last 4-8 weeks of the cycle along with the hcg 500ius twice a week and you will be fine.

 

[dirtyluke1]

but if i wait till last 8 or 4 weeks of cycle i will already be shut down from the AS.........looks like i have no choice but to run it during the whole cycle from day one no??

 

[tical]

that guy must have been injecting alcohol or something, hcg doesn't burn at all when you inject it

 

[dirtyluke1]

organon HCG burns like a bitch

 

[tical]

organon HCG burns like a bitch

you injecting IM or subq?

 

[dirtyluke1]

subq

 

[Rekrul]

..

Food for thought...

Quote:
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 May;90(5):2595-602. Epub 2005 Feb 15.

Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression.
Coviello AD, Matsumoto AM, Bremner WJ, Herbst KL, Amory JK, Anawalt BD, Sutton PR, Wright WW, Brown TR, Yan X, Zirkin BR, Jarow JP.

Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle, Washington 98195, USA. [email protected]

Abstract
In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.
So HCG appears to a be a big help on cycle even and especially with a source of exogenous testosterone. And it has been used in patients with transient hypogonadotropic hypogonadism secondary to AAS use (not the best approach-what I would call post-cycle).

 

[needtogetaas]

lol... how is something being natural going to make it potentially less harmful? I mean If these substances don't have some sort of action then they are essentially useless.

Your argument is, that herbal supplement X is great because its 'natural' and that it triggers LH release and that HCG is bad because its not 'natural' and keeps your balls alive and you will become desensitized. Yet, there is a strong likelihood that you would become desensitized by the supposed LH release while using supplement X. Furthermore, you go on to say that you are going to be messing with feedback no matter what.

You assert that you are going to desensitize the testes by using 250-500 Iu a week of HCG(this is a 'natural' level) while ON vs hammering our testes with doses 5-10x at the end of our cycle. That to me makes absolutely no sense. The logic doesn't add up.

Like I was saying before, the ideal way is to keep your balls working and prime them for LH release, which is what supplement X would be great for. Your balls won't need a kick start if you had been using hcg throughout. All you are concerned with now, is your LH release.

The hypothalamus, upon realizing that blood levels of androgens are low releases Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH). GnRH goes to the pituitary which takes this hormone as the stimulus to release Lutenising Hormone (LH). LH then goes to the testes and stimulates T production. HCG mimics LH however it is not LH!!!!!!!

The HCG would stimulate more T to be released. but during a cycle the hypothalamus would still "recognise" the increased level of androgens and still stop releasing GnRH which in turn would lead to the pituitary stopping your own natural production of LH.

This wouldn't matter so much whilst you were taking the HCG as this replaces the LH and so T production would continue whilst you kept taking the HCG. So although Hcg may prevent degeneration of the ladeg cells (remember that your own body isnt producing any LH or GnRH anymore!!! regardless ) As the hypothalamus recognizes outside sources of both androgens and LH now it will feather suppress its own production of LH and GnRH The problem is that whilst the pituitary has been lying dormant due to not receiving any GnRH from the Hypothalamus it atrophies (just like the testes do when not used).

Get it?


In a normal healthy male luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) are sent from the brain (the pituitary) to stimulate the testes to make testosterone and sperm.

The release of LH & FSH from the pituitary is stimulated by Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus is stimulated to produce GnRH when it senses low levels of testosterone and estrogen.

(hypothalamus [GnRH] --- > pituitary [LH & FSH]--- >(hcg would be placed here if we placed it anywhere)---> testes [testosterone])


So although hcg may cause there to be less atrophie of the ladeg cells it in turn causes more atrophie of the pituitary.

7,8-Benzoflavone -- increases testosterone production by preventing the negative feedback of testosterone and estrogen on the hypothalamus through GABAergic modulation though. And although researchers are just beginning to understand how the GABAergic system regulates the hypothalamus and GnRH secretion its important to know that a lot more studies have been done and are getting done then you think.. On Natural ingredients!!! Like 7,8-Benzoflavone and other phytoserms one can find in products like forma-stanzol.


Now I am not saying that preventing the desensitization of the ladeg cells during a cycle is not a good thing. Because as we know No matter how much LH & FSH the brain secretes, the testes won't secrete testosterone if they are desensitized to LH & FSH. (remember, this can happen from too much, or not enough LH & FSH stimulation)


hCG’s effect is centralized at the Leydig cells of the testicles and stimulates hormone function at the testicular level but does not reverse hypothalamic-pituitary suppression. Adequate stimulation from pituitary gonadotropins is required for the Leydig cells of the testicles to function independently in the body’s normal hormone axis.

of course during a cycle there are natural compounds and products that work through different mechanisms to prevent complete shutdown with out feather suppressing pituitary some through GABAergic modulation and some through others like with hcgenerate.


Hcg is a synthetic "out side source" of a hormone. So for the sake of argument and layman's terms ( so that your self and everyone can grasp/wrap head around subject) I will brake things down and give them a names.

steroids,Hcg,drug serms, and just about anything manufactured by a pharmaceutical company that we have commonly used= Synthetic "out side source of the target hormone"

Now we will give things like hcgenerate,bridge,unleashed/post cycle a name. Natural "bio-identical hormone" or "Homeopathic hormones" but in reality they have many names and even medically excepted ones like Phyto-SERMs, phytochemicals, phytonutrients , phenolic compounds ,phytotherapy, blah blah blah and a whole slew of other terms..
But for now will use the terms Synthetic and bio-identical hormones.


See I am explaining it like this because this has a lot to do with the parts you are not understanding. Although this is not everything and many of the natural and or even OTC hormones in the products mentioned work through other mechanisms and ways of action. Not just in a bio-identical/Homeopathic hormone manner of action.

Bio-identical/Homeopathic hormones are plant-derived and identical to the body's hormones. They are naturally the exact same thing and or they cause "natural" production/suppression of the target hormone.

Synthetic hormones such as hcg or a drug like serm are similar but not identical to the body's hormones. Fethermore they are "always" a outside source of the parent/target hormone. Moreover through manipulation of the hormone cascade they can also be used to suppress the production of a target hormone in the hopes to facilitate the production of another. We use compounds like Hcg and or clomid often notwithstanding the fact These slight chemical shift create a mismatches between the body's receptors ,Parent hormones,sister hormones, and or governing hormone cascade.

Now don't pull out your pitch forks and torches just yet
I love my steroids,drugs,chemical enhancement just as much as the next guy and in fact IMO more bwahahahahaaaa . So lets not try and act like I am downing there use. On the contrary I just happen to be more of a nonconformist who believes that Both Natural and synthetic coexist synergisticly in many concomitant circumstances.

Now at times I think you are confusing Bio-Identical with Homeopathic . One naturally augments or reduces and the other Naturally replaces. Although all things considered Naturally replacing is often (but not always) the superior. This creates less of a problem in the way of mismatching, adverse reactions, or suppression then the chemical counterparts.

Weather Fadogia agrestis method of action is more of a Bio-Identical or a Homeopathic Is somewhat unfounded however its actions through what ever Natural Mechanisms is founded. Through both scientific and real world results/feed back.

Title: Aphrodisiac potentials of the aqueous extract of Fadogia agrestis (Schweinf. Ex Hiern) stem in male albino rats.
Author: Yakubu MT , Akanji MA , Oladiji AT
Source: Asian J Androl, 7(4): 399-404 2005


Abstract: AIM: To evaluate the phytochemical constituents and the aphrodisiac potential of the aqueous extract of Fadogia agrestis (Rubiaceae) stem in male albino rats. METHODS: The aqueous stem extract of the plant was screened for phytochemical constituents. Male rats were orally dosed with 18 mg/kg, 50 mg/kg and 100 mg/kg body weight, respectively, of the extract at 24 h intervals and their sexual behavior parameters and serum testosterone concentration were evaluated at days 1, 3 and 5. RESULTS: Phytochemical screening revealed the presence of alkaloids and saponins while anthraquinones and flavonoids are weakly present. All the doses resulted in significant increase in mount frequency, intromission frequency and significantly prolonged the ejaculatory latency (P 0.05) and reduced mount and intromission latency (P 0.05). There was also a significant increase in serum testosterone concentrations in all the groups in a manner suggestive of dose-dependence (P 0.05). CONCLUSION: The aqueous extract of Fadogia agrestis stem increased the blood testosterone concentrations and this may be the mechanism responsible for its aphrodisiac effects and various masculine behaviors. It may be used to modify impaired sexual functions in animals, especially those arising from hypotestosteronemia

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/hcgenerate-needto-does-again-691319.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/hcgenerate-716865.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/hcgenerate-sent-heaven-way-needto-707933.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/my-hcgenerate-experience-687243.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/hcgenerate-needto-707157.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/hcgenerate-689005.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...ate-amazing-need-some-help-advice-711743.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...w-hcgenerate-saved-yet-another-me-704063.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...ate-solve-my-problems-710985.html#post9544455
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/wow-hcgenerate-powerful-699719.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/hcgenerate-year-round-695837.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/hcgenerate-review-695755.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/props-n2bm-hcgod-like-sex-720583.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...perience-hcgenerate-formastanozol-722309.html

 

[Gym James]

I think using hCG for the last few weeks of your cycle sounds very reasonable. (Although I'm probably a few years late on helping you with this decision....)

Now to address all the other posts:

A lot of you guys have things straight -- but it seems that others are way off. I'll skip the HPTA axis explanation -- seems like everyone has got that down.

The most compelling evidence shows that a delay in the return to normal test levels post-cycle is not due to a deficiency of LH, but due to testicular atrophy/ unresponsiveness to LH. It's not the "signal" (LH) that is deficient, its the "factory" (testicles) that just can't handle the demand anymore because it was shut down for a good while. If you don't use it, you lose it. Realize, LH comes back quick ~ 3 weeks, but testosterone takes ~ 10 weeks. This favors the theory of testicular atrophy being the rate limiter, and NOT pituitary atrophy... Here's the evidence:

"... One of the most detailed views of what a post-cycle crash probably looks like comes from an investigation into testosterone enanthate.354 It involves a group of men that were given weekly injections (250 mg) for 21 weeks, a dose that admittedly does go beyond normal HRT use. Various hormones were measured each week during the study, and for more than 4 months after the medication was discontinued. A review of the data shows that at the start of the study, LH levels were suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone (see Figure I). Once the steroid was withdrawn, however, there was a delay between the return towards normal LH production (which began to correct by the 3rd week) and testosterone (which took more than 10 weeks before noticeable correction). The above study suggests that one of the first things to happen after steroid cessation is that the brain recognizes testosterone levels are low again. This will cause GnRH and LH levels begin correcting fairly quickly. The substantial delay between this and an increase in testosterone levels is caused largely by testicular unresponsiveness to luteinizing hormone. After months of receiving extremely weak stimulation, they will have lost a substantial amount of mass (atrophied). This is a well-documented side effect of anabolic steroid use, even if a size difference may not be immediately visible in all cases. When LH levels begin surging back, the testes will initially be unable to handle the workload. This is expected to correct itself in time, but it may take many weeks for the testes to slowly restore to their original mass. With a good portion of the post-cycle recovery period actually being characterized by normal (even high) levels of LH, we must address recovery broadly if we expect it to be effective."

Here's the study: Effect of long-term testosterone oenanthate administration on male reproductive function: Clinical evaluation, serum FSH, LH, Testosterone and seminal fluid analysis in normal men.J. Mauss, G. Borsch et al. Acta Endocrinol 78 (1975) 373-84





In Anabolics, Llewellyn mostly emphasizes the importance of hCG use as a PCT (starting during the last 2 weeks of your cycle), but he does give some good info on the use of hCG on-cycle:


"... administer Human Chorionic Gonadotropin throughout a steroid cycle, in an effort to avoid testicular atrophy and the resulting reduced ability to respond to LH stimulus. In effect, this practice is used to avoid the problem of testicular atrophy, instead of trying to correct it later on when the cycle is over. It is important to remember that the dosage needs to be carefully monitored with this type of use, as high levels of hCG may cause increased testicular aromatase expression (raising estrogen levels),771 and also desensitize the testes to LH.772 As such, the drug may actually induce primary hypogonadism when misused, greatly prolonging, not improving, the recovery window. Current protocols for the use of hCG in this manner involve administering 250 IU subcutaneously every 3rd or 4th day throughout the length of the steroid cycle. Higher doses may be necessary for some individuals, but st no point should exceed 500 IU per injection. These on-cycle hCG protocols were developed by Dr. John Crisler, a well-known figure in the anti-aging and hormone-replacement field, for use with his testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients. Although TRT is often administered on a long-term basis, testicular atrophy is a common cosmetic complaint of patients irrespective of the maintenance of normal androgen levels. Dr. Crisler’s hCG program is designed to alleviate this concern in a manner that is acceptable for longer-term use. For those interested in precisely timing their hCG shots in relation to a prescribed testosterone replacement program, Dr. Crisler recommends the following in his paper,“An Update to the Crisler hCG Protocol,” “…my test cyp TRT patients now take their hCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their hCG subcutaneously,and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required)… Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their hCG every third day.”




Llewellyn, William. Anabolics E-Book Edition (Kindle Locations 10973-10988). Molecular Nutrition. Kindle Edition.
^^Great Book downloaded to my PC for 10 bucks.
Llewellyn, William. Anabolics E-Book Edition (Kindle Locations 10973-10988). Molecular Nutrition. Kindle Edition.