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General Motors number 1 again

Headholio

New member
General Motors is number 1 again, 3 years after being bankrupt.

GM Is No. 1 In The World Again In Auto Sales - Forbes

Democrats saw the value of saving a foundation of the American economy. Right wing ideologists, on the other hand, would have let GM fail. These ideologists include Mitt Romney, who has repeatedly said we should have let GM fail:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...2UU3yL9WLcK1P0oSw&sig2=tk9ZcHYR6sNqI8gi-c5VQg

How could you find a better example of the differences between parties? With Democrats, we saved an American Foundation by recognizing the appropriate use of government and the value of our institutions and workers. As a result, we again have the biggest auto maker in the world which will help fuel the economic recovery.

With Republicans, we would have had no auto industry and 3 million or more additional unemployed, which would have turned the Bush Recession to a great depression.

Extreme right wing ideology (which is a big part of the republican mainstream) has gone beyond all common sense.
 
that number doesn't mean anything until you look at their balance sheet or p/l statement

maybe they wanted to sell so many vehicles at a loss to recapture market share. the 2nd link you posted is complete garbage without that information

one of the main things about GM and american car companies was poor structure and inefficiency. who knows what the margins were on those sales when you calculate all the fixed and variable costs
 
that number doesn't mean anything until you look at their balance sheet or p/l statement

maybe they wanted to sell so many vehicles at a loss to capture market share. the rest of your statement is complete garbage without that information

The number one auto maker is better than no auto industry and millions of unemployed people. That's a fact, not garbage. GM profit 1.7 Billion in Q3 2011. Do you know how to Google?


GM reports $1.7B third-quarter profit, down 15%
 
The number one auto maker is better than no auto industry and millions of unemployed people. That's a fact, not garbage. GM profit 1.7 Billion in Q3 2011. Do you know how to Google?


GM reports $1.7B third-quarter profit, down 15%

oh, you mean after the 50 billion dollar bailout?

yes, 1.7 billion really goes a long way toward that number

and yes, if "the number one automaker" is in the business of losing money over a sustained period of time, that is a problem.

Considering the tsunami was a huge reason they actually had profits, lets see it over a sustainable period and whether it'll actually ever justify the government clunking out 50 billion to save a poorly structured organization
 
that number doesn't mean anything until you look at their balance sheet or p/l statement

maybe they wanted to sell so many vehicles at a loss to recapture market share. the 2nd link you posted is complete garbage without that information

one of the main things about GM and american car companies was poor structure and inefficiency. who knows what the margins were on those sales when you calculate all the fixed and variable costs

Well said sir. Although I do agree with the bailouts. I live near detroit and the ripple of letting gm and chrysler go would be horrible. I know this goes against capitalism but we were in pretty horrible shape at the time. atleast auto sales are picking up, for now...

Sent from my PC36100 using EliteFitness
 
oh, you mean after the 50 billion dollar bailout?

yes, 1.7 billion really goes a long way toward that number

and yes, if "the number one automaker" is in the business of losing money over a sustained period of time, that is a problem.

Considering the tsunami was a huge reason they actually had profits, lets see it over a sustainable period and whether it'll actually ever justify the government clunking out 50 billion to save a poorly structured organization

After you learn how to google, look up the definition of profit.
then look up the payback on the bsil out.
then look up the multiplier effect of money injected or taken out of the economy.
By then you'll be even more lost.
 
After you learn how to google, look up the definition of profit.
then look up the payback on the bsil out.
then look up the multiplier effect of money injected or taken out of the economy.
By then you'll be even more lost.


Shares went out at $33 in the IPO last year. They closed Tuesday at $25.04, and were down $2.73, or 11%, to close at $22.31. That was bad news for taxpayers: The U.S. Treasury still holds about 26% of the company, a stake it has said it intends to sell as soon as possible and prudent. But it would need to be able the remaining stake for about $53 a share for taxpayers to break even on the nearly $50 billion GM bailout.
 
holio is another example of democratics having zero clue about how business or finance works

You are a typical example of a simple minded ditto head who bobs his head up and down in the car listening to Rush Limbaugh. It's easy to listen to one side of the story, but hard to debate with logic and facts. When it comes time to address facts, you squirm and turn to insults. I've seen it a million times. You can't defend the stupid idea that Republicans had; that GM should be allowed to fail. There is no defense.
 
Shares went out at $33 in the IPO last year. They closed Tuesday at $25.04, and were down $2.73, or 11%, to close at $22.31. That was bad news for taxpayers: The U.S. Treasury still holds about 26% of the company, a stake it has said it intends to sell as soon as possible and prudent. But it would need to be able the remaining stake for about $53 a share for taxpayers to break even on the nearly $50 billion GM bailout.

So stocks are down compared to before the Bush economic disaster. That's a news flash. GM is number one again. Like a lot of Republicans, you obviously want America to fail, but this is unquestionable good news, and good for America, and the exact opposite of the catastrophe of what so called free market republicans would have caused by letting it fail.
 
So stocks are down compared to before the Bush economic disaster. That's a news flash. GM is number one again. Like a lot of Republicans, you obviously want America to fail, but this is unquestionable good news, and good for America, and the exact opposite of the catastrophe of what so called free market republicans would have caused by letting it fail.

The IPO was issued last year....

so.....
 
Of course you're number one when the government supports you by robbing the people at gunpoint for the money they earn from what they are told is a free market to support the state industry...Volt..enough said.


BTW,

No one was held at gunpoint. Maybe you should be complaining about the Bush bailout that was used to pay Bankster bonuses?
Saving GM was good for America, saved the economy and saved jobs. That's what I call a good use of tax money, and America is better for it.
Amazing how blinded the right is by ideology. Free market yeah! Who cares if America crashes and people starve. Its all about free market (which isn't free). Your ideology fails the common sense test.
 
ironic how this hornholio talks about logic and facts and then completely deters away from them when challenged by a clear cut argument.
all of a sudden it's about "how republicans want america to fail" instead of addressing the points I brought up.

oh, and GM sold 9.1+ million vehicles in 2007. more than they did this year. except that they lost 37 billion dollars...so
"we're #1!!"
 
So stocks are down compared to before the Bush economic disaster. That's a news flash. GM is number one again. Like a lot of Republicans, you obviously want America to fail, but this is unquestionable good news, and good for America, and the exact opposite of the catastrophe of what so called free market republicans would have caused by letting it fail.

Google mathematics...
The stock price after the Obama forced bankruptcy that disenfranchised the bondholders and violated the rule of law to support his union cronies, isn't near a price that would ever allow the taxpayers to recover their cost while the treasury is going out of their way to dump the stock..
 
No one was held at gunpoint. Maybe you should be complaining about the Bush bailout that was used to pay Bankster bonuses?
Saving GM was good for America, saved the economy and saved jobs. That's what I call a good use of tax money, and America is better for it.
Amazing how blinded the right is by ideology. Free market yeah! Who cares if America crashes and people starve. Its all about free market (which isn't free). Your ideology fails the common sense test.

Stop paying your taxes...What is the consequence? You'll be imprisoned like a rapist or murderer...and not by your consent.
 
I work in the auto industry...for tier 2 and 3 suppliers..not the favored government producers the government subsidizes. They wouldn't have gone out of business because they all produce parts for every consumer...not just GM but also BMW, VOLVO, and Jetta which are choosing to manufacture in the United States because they get the benefits of manufacturing in the south as opposed to their native countries or non right to work states; Only special editions of the Jetta are manufactured in Germany for sale in the United States.
 
At the end of the day bro, neither republicans or dems have the best interest of the people... So stop being a hardcore democrat and open your eyes bro
 
that number doesn't mean anything until you look at their balance sheet or p/l statement

maybe they wanted to sell so many vehicles at a loss to recapture market share. the 2nd link you posted is complete garbage without that information

one of the main things about GM and american car companies was poor structure and inefficiency. who knows what the margins were on those sales when you calculate all the fixed and variable costs

Calveless is 100% correct. GM has taken a loss on vehicles to be able to re-capture market share. They offer the consumer a so called $7500.00 rebate on vehicles to make it appear the consumer is getting a good deal compared to other vehicles in there class. Bottom line is , if there is a huge rebate on the model in question , then that unit is not moving and the company recognizes this and entices the consumer by fake rebates and 0% loans. Smoke and mirrors to make the company appear stronger and just like Calveless said, just because they are moving units , one must look at the corporate balance sheet and there profit and loss statements to see the true picture.
 
General Motors is number 1 again, 3 years after being bankrupt.

GM Is No. 1 In The World Again In Auto Sales - Forbes

Democrats saw the value of saving a foundation of the American economy. Right wing ideologists, on the other hand, would have let GM fail. These ideologists include Mitt Romney, who has repeatedly said we should have let GM fail:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...2UU3yL9WLcK1P0oSw&sig2=tk9ZcHYR6sNqI8gi-c5VQg

How could you find a better example of the differences between parties? With Democrats, we saved an American Foundation by recognizing the appropriate use of government and the value of our institutions and workers. As a result, we again have the biggest auto maker in the world which will help fuel the economic recovery.

With Republicans, we would have had no auto industry and 3 million or more additional unemployed, which would have turned the Bush Recession to a great depression.

Extreme right wing ideology (which is a big part of the republican mainstream) has gone beyond all common sense.

GM should have been allowed to fail. Their managment has been short-sighted for decades. They stiffle progress and lobby congress heavily to ensure no changes are implemented. Ford didn't need a bailout.

Plus, congress came down hard on Toyota for the sticky accelerator issue (which Chevy and Ford Explorers have also been known for) sending a clear message that they should back off. We didn't want a foreign automaker to lead sales in the US and Toyota was right on the edge of doing so. They wisely pulled back even though they still clearly make superior cars.
 
never thought of CW as a ditto head bobbing his head to rush limbaugh...this seems to be headholio's only response to criticism of his liberal ideology, if you don't agree with him he stutters some nonsense about fox news or a talk radio host.
glad to see even apolitical bros are calling him out on his BS, take that talk to the huffington post bro we aren't buying it here
 
Google mathematics...
The stock price after the Obama forced bankruptcy that disenfranchised the bondholders and violated the rule of law to support his union cronies, isn't near a price that would ever allow the taxpayers to recover their cost while the treasury is going out of their way to dump the stock..


if you owned GM stocks before the bankruptcy you got left with NOTHING. that is how it works for shareholders, they are last at the trough.

when it re-emerged from bankruptcy it was re-listed as a totally new equity.. you didn't magically get free GM stock if you were a prior shareholder.

so lets review

if you owned GM 10 years ago and held it your investment is now worth less than toilet paper.

if you bought it ahead of the IPO you are making a fortune. that includes the government. just cause the stock IPO'd on its first day at 33 and now its 24 doesn't mean you are down 9 points in your investment.

the only arguement you can make which has been made by the media is that the public should of had equal rights to get shares pre-IPO, that means the government, wall street, bankers, etc would of had to share a piece of the pie if people were willing to invest. that never happened simply because the government got such a steal on the investment. had the public gotten involved then they would of had to pay more
 
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Shares went out at $33 in the IPO last year. They closed Tuesday at $25.04, and were down $2.73, or 11%, to close at $22.31. That was bad news for taxpayers: The U.S. Treasury still holds about 26% of the company, a stake it has said it intends to sell as soon as possible and prudent. But it would need to be able the remaining stake for about $53 a share for taxpayers to break even on the nearly $50 billion GM bailout.

so you really think that the government got shares at whatever the IPO opened at the first day of trading? you don't know what you are talking about my friend. it doesn't work like that.

example: google opened up at 100 back in 2004, but it doesn't mean that all the officers, insiders, bankers, etc magically get shares at that exact price. they probably paid a 1/10th of that. the person who paid $100 a share is the guy who bought when the stock opened, and the person who sold to them was a banker. I get shares in IPO's all the time myself, and its a risk I am taking.. sometimes the IPO's do not open for years or get delayed, sometimes the IPO opens down 50% from what i paid.

example: I paid $45 a share for 400 shares of LNKD, it opened up in the 80's last May.. and if you look at the stock it has never traded $45 so steve how could you of gotten it at that price? well that is because I bought it months before it IPO'd, thats what the government did with GM.

not to mention the stock options they get to exercise of GM stock.

not to mention the preffered stock and dividends of GM stock.

it doesn't work the way you think it works.

and yes GM is profitable. they made almost $5 a share last year. they've got 1.5B shares outstanding, so you do the math, that is a lot of profit.
 
They should have let it fail. Or at least not stepped in with the bailout. Maybe...just maybe, some innovative mind not crippled by fear, would have come along and bailed GM out the right way, with not gov't (taxpayer) loans, but gov't guaranteed loans. Then that new CEO would have rebuilt the company from the ground up and laid some people off if necessary (can you even do that anymore with the way unions have raped the industry?), and actually produced a vehicle (or lines of vehicles) that would have been best sellers in the industry for well over 20 years. Then they would have been able to truly pay off their non-gov't provided, but gov't guaranteed loans earlier than the terms of the loans.

Wait...didn't that already happen? About 30 years ago? Right around the beginning of a major recession, when gov't had already bailed out airlines and railroads?

It's a rare thing to have happen apparently.

Either GM would have failed and folded up for good, or it would have been bought out and taken over by another entity. Oh, that did happen actually! They failed and got bought out. Stock holders got fucked and some insiders made millions (or more) including the gov't.

I think the first option I described though, was actually filled with win...and real pride. Funny how history repeats itself. I think the current generation of big company CEOs care more about lining their own pockets than the success of their company, so much so that they will let the company crumble while they pillage it for everything they can.

ah fuckit...
 
This means nothing, after a huge bailout and the whole buy one get one free deals that were going on...Americans like to come out with articles like this to make them feel better our their economy because the auto industry has a big effect on the industry but what CW said is right, 50 billion dollar bailout...
 
They should have let it fail. Or at least not stepped in with the bailout. Maybe...just maybe, some innovative mind not crippled by fear, would have come along and bailed GM out the right way, with not gov't (taxpayer) loans, but gov't guaranteed loans. Then that new CEO would have rebuilt the company from the ground up and laid some people off if necessary (can you even do that anymore with the way unions have raped the industry?), and actually produced a vehicle (or lines of vehicles) that would have been best sellers in the industry for well over 20 years. Then they would have been able to truly pay off their non-gov't provided, but gov't guaranteed loans earlier than the terms of the loans.

Wait...didn't that already happen? About 30 years ago? Right around the beginning of a major recession, when gov't had already bailed out airlines and railroads?

the airline industry will always need a bailout, its impossible to keep fares affordable for people and have airlines profit. there are a few profitable airlines but most of them lose money. just the way it is. we need travel though to keep the economy going. i always find myself buying tickets from the airline that is $10 less and then when I'm on my trip i am dropping hundreds on food and lodging. there is just something about being miserable on an airplane that i want to pay as less as possible for it.

It's a rare thing to have happen apparently.

Either GM would have failed and folded up for good, or it would have been bought out and taken over by another entity. Oh, that did happen actually! They failed and got bought out. Stock holders got fucked and some insiders made millions (or more) including the gov't.

yes that is exactly what happened. stock holders always get fucked anyway when they own common stock, they are always last and usually they get pennies for their shares. thats why its not smart to invest in common stock long term cause every company is capable of going under and every industry is capable of having a severe downturn.

I think the first option I described though, was actually filled with win...and real pride. Funny how history repeats itself. I think the current generation of big company CEOs care more about lining their own pockets than the success of their company, so much so that they will let the company crumble while they pillage it for everything they can.

ah fuckit...

bolded, and i agree with most of what you said
 
General Motors is number 1 again, 3 years after being bankrupt.

GM Is No. 1 In The World Again In Auto Sales - Forbes

Democrats saw the value of saving a foundation of the American economy. Right wing ideologists, on the other hand, would have let GM fail. These ideologists include Mitt Romney, who has repeatedly said we should have let GM fail:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...2UU3yL9WLcK1P0oSw&sig2=tk9ZcHYR6sNqI8gi-c5VQg

How could you find a better example of the differences between parties? With Democrats, we saved an American Foundation by recognizing the appropriate use of government and the value of our institutions and workers. As a result, we again have the biggest auto maker in the world which will help fuel the economic recovery.

With Republicans, we would have had no auto industry and 3 million or more additional unemployed, which would have turned the Bush Recession to a great depression.

Extreme right wing ideology (which is a big part of the republican mainstream) has gone beyond all common sense.


It's the liberal ideology that got them into that mess in the first place.

Ford has a conservative history. I wonder why they were the only one that was able to stand on its own.
 
if you owned GM stocks before the bankruptcy you got left with NOTHING. that is how it works for shareholders, they are last at the trough.

when it re-emerged from bankruptcy it was re-listed as a totally new equity.. you didn't magically get free GM stock if you were a prior shareholder.

so lets review

if you owned GM 10 years ago and held it your investment is now worth less than toilet paper.

if you bought it ahead of the IPO you are making a fortune. that includes the government. just cause the stock IPO'd on its first day at 33 and now its 24 doesn't mean you are down 9 points in your investment.

the only arguement you can make which has been made by the media is that the public should of had equal rights to get shares pre-IPO, that means the government, wall street, bankers, etc would of had to share a piece of the pie if people were willing to invest. that never happened simply because the government got such a steal on the investment. had the public gotten involved then they would of had to pay more

I was talking about bond holders..not common stockholders, there is a difference between bonds, common shares and preferred shares. Bond holders have a preference in every bankruptcy....about a century of bankruptcy law has established it as the norm for handling a bankruptcy and they were wiped out to give equity shares to Obama's cronies.

U.S. Unlikely to Recoup Entire GM Bailout, Panel Says - WSJ.com

"BY JOSH MITCHELL AND SHARON TERLEP

The U.S. government is unlikely to recover its entire $50 billion investment in General Motors Co., in part because the Obama administration unloaded a big block of shares in the company's initial public offering at $33 a share rather than wait for a higher price, a federal panel said Wednesday.

The Treasury Department, which took majority ownership of GM in 2009 as part of the company's bankruptcy reorganization, sold $13.5 billion worth of GM shares in November, cutting its stake from 61% to about 33%. The U.S.'s stake is down to 26.5% on a fully-diluted basis.

The decision to sell such a large stake, rather than hold onto the shares until their value appreciated further, “greatly reduced” the likelihood that taxpayers would be repaid in full, said the Congressional Oversight Panel, a body of outside experts that monitors bailout programs.

The Treasury has recovered about $23 billion in bailout funds it extended to GM. For the Treasury to break even, GM shares would have to reach about $53, the Congressional Oversight Panel said. GM shares were at $38.62, off 13 cents, in 4 p.m. New York Stock Exchange composite trading Tuesday."


The concerns were raised by the federal oversight committee.

Not to mention taxpayers are out 1.3 billion on Chrysler...
Treasury: Chrysler bailout cost $1.3B - Elias Groll - POLITICO.com

"The Chrysler bailout likely will cost taxpayers $1.3 billion, the Treasury Department revealed on Thursday.

The department said it had sold its remaining stake in Chrysler to Fiat, the Italian automaker that with Thursday’s deal now owns 52 percent of Chrysler."
 
that number doesn't mean anything until you look at their balance sheet or p/l statement

maybe they wanted to sell so many vehicles at a loss to recapture market share. the 2nd link you posted is complete garbage without that information

one of the main things about GM and american car companies was poor structure and inefficiency. who knows what the margins were on those sales when you calculate all the fixed and variable costs

with all the defects and recalls foreign cars dont seem to be doing much better.. I have had no cars and old cars from early 90's till now even some 85's and a shit box 77 pinto once too. In the 90's chinks made some bad ass motors I got a 98 Accord now that I do not drive my brother in law does but I still own the car and its got over 250k miles with 0 signs of giving up anything any time soon on that motor.. I had a 96 Honda before that and a 93 toyota Camry before that. They made damn good motors all the way up to about 2000 and they been riding off the fame of that ever since then..

Its good That The government saved ford but what the fuck did it cost US? ANd why did it even have to get to that point? The government could have jobs back here in the US in a heart beat if they passed a few more trade taxes ( like we used to fucking have) And passed a little less lows against businesses here in the usa.
 
with all the defects and recalls foreign cars dont seem to be doing much better.. I have had no cars and old cars from early 90's till now even some 85's and a shit box 77 pinto once too. In the 90's chinks made some bad ass motors I got a 98 Accord now that I do not drive my brother in law does but I still own the car and its got over 250k miles with 0 signs of giving up anything any time soon on that motor.. I had a 96 Honda before that and a 93 toyota Camry before that. They made damn good motors all the way up to about 2000 and they been riding off the fame of that ever since then..

Its good That The government saved ford but what the fuck did it cost US? ANd why did it even have to get to that point? The government could have jobs back here in the US in a heart beat if they passed a few more trade taxes ( like we used to fucking have) And passed a little less lows against businesses here in the usa.

Inefficiency as in corporate structure.

quality is a whole nother debate, which i still peg foreign cars ahead of domestic anyways, but that's not what i was referring to.
 
I was talking about bond holders..not common stockholders, there is a difference between bonds, common shares and preferred shares. Bond holders have a preference in every bankruptcy....about a century of bankruptcy law has established it as the norm for handling a bankruptcy and they were wiped out to give equity shares to Obama's cronies.

U.S. Unlikely to Recoup Entire GM Bailout, Panel Says - WSJ.com

"BY JOSH MITCHELL AND SHARON TERLEP

The U.S. government is unlikely to recover its entire $50 billion investment in General Motors Co., in part because the Obama administration unloaded a big block of shares in the company's initial public offering at $33 a share rather than wait for a higher price, a federal panel said Wednesday.

The Treasury Department, which took majority ownership of GM in 2009 as part of the company's bankruptcy reorganization, sold $13.5 billion worth of GM shares in November, cutting its stake from 61% to about 33%. The U.S.'s stake is down to 26.5% on a fully-diluted basis.

The decision to sell such a large stake, rather than hold onto the shares until their value appreciated further, “greatly reduced” the likelihood that taxpayers would be repaid in full, said the Congressional Oversight Panel, a body of outside experts that monitors bailout programs.

The Treasury has recovered about $23 billion in bailout funds it extended to GM. For the Treasury to break even, GM shares would have to reach about $53, the Congressional Oversight Panel said. GM shares were at $38.62, off 13 cents, in 4 p.m. New York Stock Exchange composite trading Tuesday."


The concerns were raised by the federal oversight committee.

Not to mention taxpayers are out 1.3 billion on Chrysler...
Treasury: Chrysler bailout cost $1.3B - Elias Groll - POLITICO.com

"The Chrysler bailout likely will cost taxpayers $1.3 billion, the Treasury Department revealed on Thursday.

The department said it had sold its remaining stake in Chrysler to Fiat, the Italian automaker that with Thursday’s deal now owns 52 percent of Chrysler."

I knew we (taxpayers) had to dump our remaining shares at a high price to get whole, but I didn't realize the gap was that high.

Thanks for digging those facts up. I knew the Obama/bailout fanbois were dead wrong on this one, but it wasn't worth it to me to dig up the truth and post it.
 
Its good That The government saved ford but what the fuck did it cost US?

Just clarifying that Ford didn't receive any bail out money.

I'm not so sure if I agree GM and Chrysler getting bailout money was ever a good thing. I believe they both made THE SHITTIEST fucking products of ANY car manufacturer all through the late 80's, all of the 90's, and the early 2000's. PURE SHIT. I've never SEEN such junk and bad design flaws. I worked in a garage for 6 years and saw a lot in that amount of time.
 
ironic how this hornholio talks about logic and facts and then completely deters away from them when challenged by a clear cut argument.
all of a sudden it's about "how republicans want america to fail" instead of addressing the points I brought up.

oh, and GM sold 9.1+ million vehicles in 2007. more than they did this year. except that they lost 37 billion dollars...so
"we're #1!!"

I guess I missed your clear cut argument. Your comment about the P&L is a diversion. GM is profitable.

Your point about the stock price misses the point. President Obama didn't dump 50 billion into GM as a stock speculator, he did it to save the United States, and the world, from a Bush Great Depression. And it worked.

At the time of the bail out the loss was expected to be much greater. The US has recovered half the investment and still holds stock in the company. The so called loss is not realized until the shares are converted to cash, and the US has already said it isn't selling any more shares with the stock price currently deprressed to to world economic problems.
So, the final bottom line on the return is still pending and not known. But, GM stock is rated a "strong buy" right now, by the way.
General Motors Company (GM) Analyst Stock Recommendation - NASDAQ.com
 
More on the "investment".
GM crashing would have resulted in millions of jobs lost, and cost far greater to the country than the bailout cost. The projection at the time was that it would have cost the US 28 billion in the first two years if we did nothing. The flood on the market of unemployed workers, the cost of unemployment benefits, the lost tax revenue from the workers as well as from the corporations, etc. It would have been a complete catastrophe to do nothing. The government (we the people) protected our asset and our people. That's what good government does. Free Market would have worked too. Eventually. After the great depression, the hunger, the collapse, the slow rebuilding. And maybe 30 years down the road we could crawl out of the rubble and recreate what we have right now, but that would just be stupid.
 
GM contributes 500 Billion annually to GDP.
Government Bailout of Ford GM Chrysler and the Auto Industry

The bail out saved millions of jobs. The radical idea fo doing nothing would have killed millions of jobs. I don't call that idea republican because even smart republicans know, and knew, that the bail out was necessary. It's a radical right idea, and 20 years ago, befor the right became radicalized, the bailout would be overwhelmingly bipartisan.
 
More on the "investment".
GM crashing would have resulted in millions of jobs lost, and cost far greater to the country than the bailout cost. The projection at the time was that it would have cost the US 28 billion in the first two years if we did nothing. The flood on the market of unemployed workers, the cost of unemployment benefits, the lost tax revenue from the workers as well as from the corporations, etc. It would have been a complete catastrophe to do nothing. The government (we the people) protected our asset and our people. That's what good government does. Free Market would have worked too. Eventually. After the great depression, the hunger, the collapse, the slow rebuilding. And maybe 30 years down the road we could crawl out of the rubble and recreate what we have right now, but that would just be stupid.

The Obama presidency has cost even millions of jobs more than that. And the vast majority of those jobs aren't coming back.

So if you're that genuinely concerned about jobs, getting him out of office as soon as possible should be your highest priority.
 
never thought of CW as a ditto head bobbing his head to rush limbaugh...this seems to be headholio's only response to criticism of his liberal ideology, if you don't agree with him he stutters some nonsense about fox news or a talk radio host.
glad to see even apolitical bros are calling him out on his BS, take that talk to the huffington post bro we aren't buying it here

You turn to an ad-hominem attack because you have nothing intelligent to add? I expect more from you, and from your "apolitical bros" :FRlol:
 
The Obama presidency has cost even millions of jobs more than that. And the vast majority of those jobs aren't coming back.

So if you're that genuinely concerned about jobs, getting him out of office as soon as possible should be your highest priority.

Not true.
Check out the Republican "success" on the brown side of that graph.
 
Do you ever wonder why Republicans seem to whine more about GM than the far greater tax dollars given to banksters? It's a very revealing example of the right wings priorities to pander to the elite and fight a war against the middle class. If you aren't part of the elite, I don't know why you'd be on their side.
 
It's the liberal ideology that got them into that mess in the first place.

Ford has a conservative history. I wonder why they were the only one that was able to stand on its own.

I think I saw you criticizing someone on another thread for making generalizations. It seems you are the king of that.
GM=liberal
Ford=Conservative? :rolleyes:

Got anything to back that up?
 
^^^ insert link to Ford commercial bragging on not needing government bailouts.
 
Do you ever wonder why Republicans seem to whine more about GM than the far greater tax dollars given to banksters? It's a very revealing example of the right wings priorities to pander to the elite and fight a war against the middle class. If you aren't part of the elite, I don't know why you'd be on their side.

As opposed to Dems pandering to unions?

Do banks have unions?

lol @ "the right" fighting a war against the middle class. If the dems and unions get their way the middle class will disappear far quicker than if the repubs could get their way.

Either way, the middle class is doomed the way we're going.
 
As opposed to Dems pandering to unions?

Do banks have unions?

lol @ "the right" fighting a war against the middle class. If the dems and unions get their way the middle class will disappear far quicker than if the repubs could get their way.

Either way, the middle class is doomed the way we're going.

This is incredibly true, especially in any segment that faces overseas competition.

There is one and only one way to increase real wages and benefits to the middle class: Increase the demand for their labor. The libs are destroying demand at a record pace, but the republicans haven't put anything on the table that will save them either. Republican plans might slow the death of the middle class, but I don't see how we fix the mess we're in.
 
You turn to an ad-hominem attack because you have nothing intelligent to add? I expect more from you, and from your "apolitical bros" :FRlol:

i fail to see what is intelligent about calling CW a bobbing headed ditto head, accusing others of racism for not liking obama (plunky), or calling political ideology different than yours faux noise or whatever the fuk you call it.
you got spanked a little here, learn from it and move on
 
i fail to see what is intelligent about calling CW a bobbing headed ditto head, accusing others of racism for not liking obama (plunky), or calling political ideology different than yours faux noise or whatever the fuk you call it.
you got spanked a little here, learn from it and move on

Libs don't learn, they stick to their mantra. Even in the face of Barry's indisputable failure, they still make excuses for him.

Conservatives learned from Iraq that nation-building is far harder and more expensive (in terms of lives and $$$) than we thought. So now we adapt.

Similarly, conservatives are realizing that our next big war won't be tanks rolling over a battlefield (a la WWII). Nor will it be nuclear (a la The Cold War). It won't even be terrorist-driven (a la 9/11). The new battlefront is economic.

So what do we need to do?

1) Raise our revenues which means make the US business-friendly again. That means fewer taxes, torts and regulation. And for the libtards who think we can simply raise taxes instead, try this first: Go sell your house for 250% of market value. If it's all just a matter of pricing (taxing), then lead the way by showing us how you can simply raise the price of something (i.e. operating in the US) and still sell it. Our tax code is already priced out of the global market. Raising it more will only make a bad thing worse.

2) Restructure our liabilities. The Medicare/SS mess we have right now is no different than Kodak being slowly dragged-down by commitments it simply can't afford to keep.

3) Prepare for the next big war, which is economic. In our weakened state, China and Russia don't need to build a single tank, carrier, rifle or bomb. They just need to let us slowly wind-down while they don't repeat our foolish mistakes (which ironically, are just a repeat of Europe's foolish mistakes but we clearly didn't learn from their lesson.)

/rant
 
GM contributes 500 Billion annually to GDP.
Government Bailout of Ford GM Chrysler and the Auto Industry

The bail out saved millions of jobs. The radical idea fo doing nothing would have killed millions of jobs. I don't call that idea republican because even smart republicans know, and knew, that the bail out was necessary. It's a radical right idea, and 20 years ago, befor the right became radicalized, the bailout would be overwhelmingly bipartisan.

That's bullshit, it assumes every parts supplier would go out of business , I've worked for GM suppliers since 2001. Only a handful exclusively supplies GM parts, the vast majority supply parts to multiple manufacturers and they would have picked up the slack because auto demand would be consistent, they would just manufacture different parts. My largest client is a fortune 1000 and not only do they supply hoses and hose fittings to EVERY manufacturer, foreign and domestic, they also have an aerospace arm.
 
A talented accountant could make anything look good or about to fail, as the breeze changes.

GM is in better shape in some ways than they were before, but let's not forget that their present success is because they outsourced much of their production to Canada, Mexico, Japan, Germany, South Korea, and China. Fact... Go look up who makes all the parts for GM vehicles. Obama was afraid to confront the out-of-control unions, so his only choice was to quietly allow all this outsourcing.

Charles
 
A talented accountant could make anything look good or about to fail, as the breeze changes.

GM is in better shape in some ways than they were before, but let's not forget that their present success is because they outsourced much of their production to Canada, Mexico, Japan, Germany, South Korea, and China. Fact... Go look up who makes all the parts for GM vehicles. Obama was afraid to confront the out-of-control unions, so his only choice was to quietly allow all this outsourcing.

Charles

I think it's a sad state of affairs when China and Canada are considered more business friendly than the United States. The idea of an American Manufacturer is ridiculous..They outsource parts to foreign companies and "foreign manufacturers" build their cars in the United States...

Some American Cars Are Foreign-Owned, but Made in the U.S.A. | Fox News

"When GM, Ford and Chrysler pleaded their case for a multibillion-dollar bailout, the automakers' CEOs told Congress that letting their companies fail would diminish the choices of patriotic Americans who want to buy American cars.

But buying a Honda or a Toyota or any one of several other "imports" can be buying American, too.

Many "foreign" cars built by the Big Three's competitors are made in the U.S.A. — coming off assembly lines from South Carolina to California and providing jobs for tens of thousands of Americans.

"We make them here and they're built by American citizens and increasingly we're designing them here," said Kim Custer, spokesman for the Association of International Automobile Manufacturers, which represents Toyota, Mitsubishi, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, Isuzu, and Subaru.

"In fact, 55 percent of the vehicles our companies sell here are built here," he said. "More than half of our sales are products made here, and we consider ourselves part of the American auto industry. We have about 95,000 employees around the country."

Honda, for example, has manufacturing plants in Marysville and East Liberty, Ohio, in Lincoln, Ala., and last month it opened a plant in Greensburg, Ind., that will employ about 2,000 people. Honda manufacturing facilities employ about 14,000 people in the U.S.

Another Japanese giant, Toyota, produces its Camry, Camry Hybrid, Solara, Avalon and Venza models at its plant in Georgetown, Ky., where it employs about 7,000 people. Another 5,500 work at the company's plant in Freemont, Calif., a joint venture with GM, and 4,500 Americans work in its Princeton, Ind., facility.

Toyota will begin making its popular Prius hybrid in a plant under construction in Blue Springs, Miss., in late 2010, the company said. When the Mississippi plant is online, Toyota will have almost 21,000 employees in its U.S. manufacturing facilities.

European cars are also being born in the U.S.A.

According to a study released in September by the Moore School of Business at the University of South Carolina, the BMW plant in Spartanburg, S.C., has pumped about $8.8 billion into the state's economy and created about 4.3 jobs statewide for every one job at BMW.

Mitsubishi, Mercedes-Benz, Subaru, Nissan and Hyundai also have U.S. plants that employ American autoworkers. Volkswagen and Kia will soon.

"We refer to these companies as the new American manufacturers and the old ones as the traditional American manufacturers," said David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich.

The auto industry has taken a hit across all brands and segments in the economic downturn, and its not expected to improve much in 2009.

"What's weird is that usually luxury brands are impervious to downturns, but this is such a severe one that that segment – I think every segment – has lost sales," Custer said. "Even lower-cost, fuel efficient car sales are down. Everything seems to be down, it's just really discouraging."

The success of foreign auto companies with U.S. operations is tied to the success of the American brands, and they would be vulnerable should one or more of Detroit's Big Three fail, Cole said.

"Because the auto business has become so globally integrated, that's the way the industry functions," he said. "One of the common misperceptions is that if one of the Detroit automakers goes down, it won't have any impact on the other automakers here, and that's absolutely un-true."

In 2000, about 50 percent of Toyota and Honda components were made in America. Now some foreign automakers are trying to raise their percentage of American-made components.

Honda has raised its American-made content in some vehicles to as high as 70 percent, said John Heitmann, a history professor at the University of Dayton who teaches classes about car history and culture.

But the Japanese carmaker's vehicles still aren't as American as American companies' cars.

"In terms of the transplants, Honda in particular has been trying to raise American content, but typically when you're talking about an American producer like General Motors or Ford, about 90 percent of the material, the components that goes into a Detroit Three car is American," he said.

"And virtually all the profits that Ford and GM make, if they have profits anymore, go to U.S. stockholders, whereas less than 10 percent of Japanese carmakers have shareholders that are Americans."

For their part, foreign carmakers with American operations view their products as American-made, even when parts are sourced from overseas.

"People should not discriminate against a product simply because it bears the logo of an international company," Mitsubishi spokesman Dan Irvin said in an e-mail. "Besides, Mitsubishi Galants, Eclipses, Spyders, and Endeavors are built in the heartland of Illinois with a union workforce."

But Japanese or German branded cars – even if they are completely made in America – will never be as American as Chevys and Fords in the imaginations of their drivers, Heitmann said.

"Our passion is for American cars, and that's expressed in our car culture. Have you ever heard a song about a Japanese car in the United States?"

"
 
General Motors is number 1 again, 3 years after being bankrupt.

GM Is No. 1 In The World Again In Auto Sales - Forbes

Democrats saw the value of saving a foundation of the American economy. Right wing ideologists, on the other hand, would have let GM fail. These ideologists include Mitt Romney, who has repeatedly said we should have let GM fail:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...2UU3yL9WLcK1P0oSw&sig2=tk9ZcHYR6sNqI8gi-c5VQg

How could you find a better example of the differences between parties? With Democrats, we saved an American Foundation by recognizing the appropriate use of government and the value of our institutions and workers. As a result, we again have the biggest auto maker in the world which will help fuel the economic recovery.

With Republicans, we would have had no auto industry and 3 million or more additional unemployed, which would have turned the Bush Recession to a great depression.

Extreme right wing ideology (which is a big part of the republican mainstream) has gone beyond all common sense.

why don't you offer some insight and commentary of your own instead of appearing like a dweeb with a ghost position
what level have you graduated headupmyass?
so I know what caliber of comments to toy with you
 
Not true.
Check out the Republican "success" on the brown side of that graph.

what do you do for a living? you're probably some big guy that comes across as an asshole with meager education. and that's the goverment's fault
go live elsewhere tick
 
Do you ever wonder why Republicans seem to whine more about GM than the far greater tax dollars given to banksters? It's a very revealing example of the right wings priorities to pander to the elite and fight a war against the middle class. If you aren't part of the elite, I don't know why you'd be on their side.

listen to me you little fuck
that think rich only begats rich
most of the people that are in the holy hell 1% busted their ass in school
while you little bellyachers smoked weed and dropped out of whatever
go to a hospital and note around half of the doctors don't look like they grew up in west virginia
it amazes me the volume of cum pumped into your innards
 
Not true.
Check out the Republican "success" on the brown side of that graph.

do you even know how to read a fuckin' graph?
it starts in dec '07 after the housing crash
which predominately was caused by trying to delive undesrving niggers homes
homes
racist blah blah
black african-americans are the most rascist types in the country
want me to make you look like a fool
 
allow me to perspective that for you in terms you may understand
when the medical establishment claims eating two strips of bacon increases your chance of pancreatic cancer by 19%, call it 20%
oh god I'm never eating bacon again
but if your base chance was 5%
all that means is your chances went to 5.2%
still I don't eat bacon
 
it's tough for educated people to argue with bus drivers making six figures a year total package
wisconsin was the first to say
fuck this
 
I think I'd rather see GM still floundering a bit, maybe bankrupt and downsized, but at least maybe have A FEW AMERICANS in Michigan and Kentucky still working. Now in stead, there's a new GM plant in Hanoi, Viet Nam of all places, and dozens of them around the globe (many in third-world countries), with possibly child slave labor like the VCRs and DVD players which Americans were so thrilled at the $39 pricing on.

If the unions would come down to this planet, and stop making unreasonable, YES I SAID UNREASONABLE demands that no corporation could possibly meet in their wildest dreams, then maybe some of those jobs might come home....

My '05 Toyota is made more in the USA by Americans, than most GM vehicles. That's sad.

Charles
 
I think I'd rather see GM still floundering a bit, maybe bankrupt and downsized, but at least maybe have A FEW AMERICANS in Michigan and Kentucky still working. Now in stead, there's a new GM plant in Hanoi, Viet Nam of all places, and dozens of them around the globe (many in third-world countries), with possibly child slave labor like the VCRs and DVD players which Americans were so thrilled at the $39 pricing on.

If the unions would come down to this planet, and stop making unreasonable, YES I SAID UNREASONABLE demands that no corporation could possibly meet in their wildest dreams, then maybe some of those jobs might come home....

My '05 Toyota is made more in the USA by Americans, than most GM vehicles. That's sad.

Charles
auto "construction slash assembly" labor in this country has remained stable
the people working aren't in michigan UAW
they are in the southeast
see while the population is expanding
the fuckin' UAW has killed jobs up north
you should be building cars out the ass
even for the 10 million illegal mexicans
but no
 
beaner will be here soon after he gets off shift and explain unions are neccesary to keep 15 year old girls from working on the assembly line
yo yo
 
I miss humantarget
big sob with a head on his shoulders and an acerbic way of posting
bald too
I think some tats
 
beaner will be here soon after he gets off shift and explain unions are neccesary to keep 15 year old girls from working on the assembly line
yo yo

lol wtf?
i'm not a rahrah union bro, never have been.
and child labor laws check child labor shit, unioins may have intiated that i dunno...
 
lol wtf?
i'm not a rahrah union bro, never have been.
and child labor laws check child labor shit, unioins may have intiated that i dunno...

flip flopper
want me to call up the post(s)
 
flip flopper
want me to call up the post(s)

i'm currently in a union and just made a thread about this recently.
ever see me big upping unions or cheerleading them?
or talking trash about them or slamming members?
no, cause i do neither.
 
i'm currently in a union and just made a thread about this recently.
ever see me big upping unions or cheerleading them?
or talking trash about them or slamming members?
no, cause i do neither.

yes I have jimbo
maybe not bino the fag
one of the two tree previous alaises you've run around with
I'm sure of it
 
yes I have jimbo
maybe not bino the fag
one of the two tree previous alaises you've run around with
I'm sure of it

post it up then.
only aliases i've posted under are gambino
and bino
search it up i'll be around for two more weeks
 
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