General Motors number 1 again

[javaguru]

if you owned GM stocks before the bankruptcy you got left with NOTHING. that is how it works for shareholders, they are last at the trough.

when it re-emerged from bankruptcy it was re-listed as a totally new equity.. you didn't magically get free GM stock if you were a prior shareholder.

so lets review

if you owned GM 10 years ago and held it your investment is now worth less than toilet paper.

if you bought it ahead of the IPO you are making a fortune. that includes the government. just cause the stock IPO'd on its first day at 33 and now its 24 doesn't mean you are down 9 points in your investment.

the only arguement you can make which has been made by the media is that the public should of had equal rights to get shares pre-IPO, that means the government, wall street, bankers, etc would of had to share a piece of the pie if people were willing to invest. that never happened simply because the government got such a steal on the investment. had the public gotten involved then they would of had to pay more

I was talking about bond holders..not common stockholders, there is a difference between bonds, common shares and preferred shares. Bond holders have a preference in every bankruptcy....about a century of bankruptcy law has established it as the norm for handling a bankruptcy and they were wiped out to give equity shares to Obama's cronies.

U.S. Unlikely to Recoup Entire GM Bailout, Panel Says - WSJ.com

"BY JOSH MITCHELL AND SHARON TERLEP

The U.S. government is unlikely to recover its entire $50 billion investment in General Motors Co., in part because the Obama administration unloaded a big block of shares in the company's initial public offering at $33 a share rather than wait for a higher price, a federal panel said Wednesday.

The Treasury Department, which took majority ownership of GM in 2009 as part of the company's bankruptcy reorganization, sold $13.5 billion worth of GM shares in November, cutting its stake from 61% to about 33%. The U.S.'s stake is down to 26.5% on a fully-diluted basis.

The decision to sell such a large stake, rather than hold onto the shares until their value appreciated further, “greatly reduced” the likelihood that taxpayers would be repaid in full, said the Congressional Oversight Panel, a body of outside experts that monitors bailout programs.

The Treasury has recovered about $23 billion in bailout funds it extended to GM. For the Treasury to break even, GM shares would have to reach about $53, the Congressional Oversight Panel said. GM shares were at $38.62, off 13 cents, in 4 p.m. New York Stock Exchange composite trading Tuesday."


The concerns were raised by the federal oversight committee.

Not to mention taxpayers are out 1.3 billion on Chrysler...
Treasury: Chrysler bailout cost $1.3B - Elias Groll - POLITICO.com

"The Chrysler bailout likely will cost taxpayers $1.3 billion, the Treasury Department revealed on Thursday.

The department said it had sold its remaining stake in Chrysler to Fiat, the Italian automaker that with Thursday’s deal now owns 52 percent of Chrysler."

 

[needtogetaas]

that number doesn't mean anything until you look at their balance sheet or p/l statement

maybe they wanted to sell so many vehicles at a loss to recapture market share. the 2nd link you posted is complete garbage without that information

one of the main things about GM and american car companies was poor structure and inefficiency. who knows what the margins were on those sales when you calculate all the fixed and variable costs

with all the defects and recalls foreign cars dont seem to be doing much better.. I have had no cars and old cars from early 90's till now even some 85's and a shit box 77 pinto once too. In the 90's chinks made some bad ass motors I got a 98 Accord now that I do not drive my brother in law does but I still own the car and its got over 250k miles with 0 signs of giving up anything any time soon on that motor.. I had a 96 Honda before that and a 93 toyota Camry before that. They made damn good motors all the way up to about 2000 and they been riding off the fame of that ever since then..

Its good That The government saved ford but what the fuck did it cost US? ANd why did it even have to get to that point? The government could have jobs back here in the US in a heart beat if they passed a few more trade taxes ( like we used to fucking have) And passed a little less lows against businesses here in the usa.

 

[calveless wonder]

with all the defects and recalls foreign cars dont seem to be doing much better.. I have had no cars and old cars from early 90's till now even some 85's and a shit box 77 pinto once too. In the 90's chinks made some bad ass motors I got a 98 Accord now that I do not drive my brother in law does but I still own the car and its got over 250k miles with 0 signs of giving up anything any time soon on that motor.. I had a 96 Honda before that and a 93 toyota Camry before that. They made damn good motors all the way up to about 2000 and they been riding off the fame of that ever since then..

Its good That The government saved ford but what the fuck did it cost US? ANd why did it even have to get to that point? The government could have jobs back here in the US in a heart beat if they passed a few more trade taxes ( like we used to fucking have) And passed a little less lows against businesses here in the usa.

Inefficiency as in corporate structure.

quality is a whole nother debate, which i still peg foreign cars ahead of domestic anyways, but that's not what i was referring to.

 

[mrplunkey]

I was talking about bond holders..not common stockholders, there is a difference between bonds, common shares and preferred shares. Bond holders have a preference in every bankruptcy....about a century of bankruptcy law has established it as the norm for handling a bankruptcy and they were wiped out to give equity shares to Obama's cronies.

U.S. Unlikely to Recoup Entire GM Bailout, Panel Says - WSJ.com

"BY JOSH MITCHELL AND SHARON TERLEP

The U.S. government is unlikely to recover its entire $50 billion investment in General Motors Co., in part because the Obama administration unloaded a big block of shares in the company's initial public offering at $33 a share rather than wait for a higher price, a federal panel said Wednesday.

The Treasury Department, which took majority ownership of GM in 2009 as part of the company's bankruptcy reorganization, sold $13.5 billion worth of GM shares in November, cutting its stake from 61% to about 33%. The U.S.'s stake is down to 26.5% on a fully-diluted basis.

The decision to sell such a large stake, rather than hold onto the shares until their value appreciated further, “greatly reduced” the likelihood that taxpayers would be repaid in full, said the Congressional Oversight Panel, a body of outside experts that monitors bailout programs.

The Treasury has recovered about $23 billion in bailout funds it extended to GM. For the Treasury to break even, GM shares would have to reach about $53, the Congressional Oversight Panel said. GM shares were at $38.62, off 13 cents, in 4 p.m. New York Stock Exchange composite trading Tuesday."


The concerns were raised by the federal oversight committee.

Not to mention taxpayers are out 1.3 billion on Chrysler...
Treasury: Chrysler bailout cost $1.3B - Elias Groll - POLITICO.com

"The Chrysler bailout likely will cost taxpayers $1.3 billion, the Treasury Department revealed on Thursday.

The department said it had sold its remaining stake in Chrysler to Fiat, the Italian automaker that with Thursday’s deal now owns 52 percent of Chrysler."

I knew we (taxpayers) had to dump our remaining shares at a high price to get whole, but I didn't realize the gap was that high.

Thanks for digging those facts up. I knew the Obama/bailout fanbois were dead wrong on this one, but it wasn't worth it to me to dig up the truth and post it.

 

[freakshow85]

Its good That The government saved ford but what the fuck did it cost US?

Just clarifying that Ford didn't receive any bail out money.

I'm not so sure if I agree GM and Chrysler getting bailout money was ever a good thing. I believe they both made THE SHITTIEST fucking products of ANY car manufacturer all through the late 80's, all of the 90's, and the early 2000's. PURE SHIT. I've never SEEN such junk and bad design flaws. I worked in a garage for 6 years and saw a lot in that amount of time.

 

[Headholio]

ironic how this hornholio talks about logic and facts and then completely deters away from them when challenged by a clear cut argument.
all of a sudden it's about "how republicans want america to fail" instead of addressing the points I brought up.

oh, and GM sold 9.1+ million vehicles in 2007. more than they did this year. except that they lost 37 billion dollars...so
"we're #1!!"

I guess I missed your clear cut argument. Your comment about the P&L is a diversion. GM is profitable.

Your point about the stock price misses the point. President Obama didn't dump 50 billion into GM as a stock speculator, he did it to save the United States, and the world, from a Bush Great Depression. And it worked.

At the time of the bail out the loss was expected to be much greater. The US has recovered half the investment and still holds stock in the company. The so called loss is not realized until the shares are converted to cash, and the US has already said it isn't selling any more shares with the stock price currently deprressed to to world economic problems.
So, the final bottom line on the return is still pending and not known. But, GM stock is rated a "strong buy" right now, by the way.
General Motors Company (GM) Analyst Stock Recommendation - NASDAQ.com

 

[Headholio]

More on the "investment".
GM crashing would have resulted in millions of jobs lost, and cost far greater to the country than the bailout cost. The projection at the time was that it would have cost the US 28 billion in the first two years if we did nothing. The flood on the market of unemployed workers, the cost of unemployment benefits, the lost tax revenue from the workers as well as from the corporations, etc. It would have been a complete catastrophe to do nothing. The government (we the people) protected our asset and our people. That's what good government does. Free Market would have worked too. Eventually. After the great depression, the hunger, the collapse, the slow rebuilding. And maybe 30 years down the road we could crawl out of the rubble and recreate what we have right now, but that would just be stupid.

 

[Headholio]

GM contributes 500 Billion annually to GDP.
Government Bailout of Ford GM Chrysler and the Auto Industry

The bail out saved millions of jobs. The radical idea fo doing nothing would have killed millions of jobs. I don't call that idea republican because even smart republicans know, and knew, that the bail out was necessary. It's a radical right idea, and 20 years ago, befor the right became radicalized, the bailout would be overwhelmingly bipartisan.

 

[mrplunkey]

More on the "investment".
GM crashing would have resulted in millions of jobs lost, and cost far greater to the country than the bailout cost. The projection at the time was that it would have cost the US 28 billion in the first two years if we did nothing. The flood on the market of unemployed workers, the cost of unemployment benefits, the lost tax revenue from the workers as well as from the corporations, etc. It would have been a complete catastrophe to do nothing. The government (we the people) protected our asset and our people. That's what good government does. Free Market would have worked too. Eventually. After the great depression, the hunger, the collapse, the slow rebuilding. And maybe 30 years down the road we could crawl out of the rubble and recreate what we have right now, but that would just be stupid.

The Obama presidency has cost even millions of jobs more than that. And the vast majority of those jobs aren't coming back.

So if you're that genuinely concerned about jobs, getting him out of office as soon as possible should be your highest priority.

 

[Headholio]

never thought of CW as a ditto head bobbing his head to rush limbaugh...this seems to be headholio's only response to criticism of his liberal ideology, if you don't agree with him he stutters some nonsense about fox news or a talk radio host.
glad to see even apolitical bros are calling him out on his BS, take that talk to the huffington post bro we aren't buying it here

You turn to an ad-hominem attack because you have nothing intelligent to add? I expect more from you, and from your "apolitical bros"