Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
UGL OZ
UGFREAK
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsUGL OZUGFREAK

Final word on cardio on empty stomach?

sk*

New member
Some say it's the easiest way to burn muscle and some say it's not. What's the final word on it?

Should I have a protein or a carb drink right before morning cardio? Or will having it just burn those calories instead of burning the fat?

I really don't wanna hear from the cardio sucks crew. A lot of the reason I wanna do cardio is for fun and to reduce water retention, but if it will help burn a little fat than even better.

So what's the final word? :)

-sk
 
I have done tons ofa cardio on an empty stomach, and I have never had a problem with muscle wasting. I think most of the people that report loss of muscle are either doing excessive cardio, or have improper nutrition that leads to muscle loss.
 
poantrex said:
I have done tons ofa cardio on an empty stomach, and I have never had a problem with muscle wasting. I think most of the people that report loss of muscle are either doing excessive cardio, or have improper nutrition that leads to muscle loss.

How much cardio do you do? What guidlines do you follow? What do you eat after the cardio?

Thanks.

-sk
 
sk* said:


How much cardio do you do? What guidlines do you follow? What do you eat after the cardio?

Thanks.

-sk

Ask Nelson. He's the "Authority" on cardio. :rolleyes:
 
sk* said:


Yea, really don't wanna get into that shit.

I wanna run. I like it, period.

-sk

I'm with ya there as soon as I get off my lazy ass. :)
 
unless you're already 5% you won't be burning muscle......but I personally can't do it on an empty stomach.......I get ill......
 
It works better on an empty stomach. I've tried both with careful observation, and lots of colleagues have done the same...the results are consistently better if done prior to eating.
 
Okay, let's put the effectiveness or non effectiveness of cardio aside for a moment:

Doing ANY exercise on an empty stomach will not burn more fat. It is biologically impossible.

If you don't mind it, fine.

If you like it, fine.

But it will NOT burn more fat than if you train on a full stoach, or a half full stomach.

But it won't be the final word for a long time. Myths die hard.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Okay, let's put the effectiveness or non effectiveness of cardio aside for a moment:

Doing ANY exercise on an empty stomach will not burn more fat. It is biologically impossible.

If you don't mind it, fine.

If you like it, fine.

But it will NOT burn more fat than if you train on a full stoach, or a half full stomach.

But it won't be the final word for a long time. Myths die hard.

More speculation or can you back this one up with some facts?
 
Nelson Montana said:
Okay, let's put the effectiveness or non effectiveness of cardio aside for a moment:

Doing ANY exercise on an empty stomach will not burn more fat. It is biologically impossible.

If you don't mind it, fine.

If you like it, fine.

But it will NOT burn more fat than if you train on a full stoach, or a half full stomach.

But it won't be the final word for a long time. Myths die hard.

I think the idea of it is that if you just ate you will be burning the calories you just took in instead of stored fat ...

Why do you oppose this? Just curious ...

-sk
 
was gonna go to bed.. its kinda late here but now i'm definitely gonna stick around!
 
nelson..

you wake up after an 8 hour fast... doesnt your body use fat storage as the main source of energy?

something to do with no glucose available for energy.

now, if your answer to the above is yes then how can you explain your earlier remark?
 
satchboogie said:
nelson..

you wake up after an 8 hour fast... doesnt your body use fat storage as the main source of energy?

something to do with no glucose available for energy.

I suscribe to that exact philosophy Bro. I get out of bed and immediately hit the trails outside my place for 15-20 minutes... keeps me nice and lean.
 
Nelson, you got one thing right--myths die hard.

Of course, the reason the idea about cardio on an empty stomach won't die is because it's true, see. Not a myth.

Now granted, the logic about the reasons could be flawed, but the results are undeniable.

A point of fact--this can easily be proven any time by anyone willing to try both approaches and document the results. You ought to try it sometime and document it, day by day, for eight weeks. Compare it to what you do now. Then get back to us on this myth.
 
I was actually gonna put up this exact same post last night!

It seems like about a year ago everyone said empty stomach cardio was the way to go on the boards. Now several boards seem to be leaning over to the "eat protein before" theory.

I feel better doing cardio before breakfast. I can't handle anything in my stomach when sprinting so I'm gonna keep it that way.

I'm also still waiting 1 hour after windsprints until I eat. Is this still the way to go?? FS??
 
KillerLoop said:
I was actually gonna put up this exact same post last night!

It seems like about a year ago everyone said empty stomach cardio was the way to go on the boards. Now several boards seem to be leaning over to the "eat protein before" theory.

I feel better doing cardio before breakfast. I can't handle anything in my stomach when sprinting so I'm gonna keep it that way.

I'm also still waiting 1 hour after windsprints until I eat. Is this still the way to go?? FS??
Screw all this!!! I've been training for 30 plus yrs what works for some will not work for others...Its called lifestyle habit. I entered Bill Phillips ( Screw Him) LOL!!!Body for life program..his program called (and this is for overweight people to a percentage) it called for six meals per day,myloplex shakes(you had to use his stuff for the program) then after the last evening meal you fast for 12-14 hrs got up do cardio for 20 min.....The prize a lambo....Damn i wanted it......followed to a t...i can say as far as EAS supplements that program was the best at building muscle naturally because i spent alomst 400.00 for the 3 mon program.


RADAR
 
RADAR said:

Screw all this!!! I've been training for 30 plus yrs what works for some will not work for others...Its called lifestyle habit. I entered Bill Phillips ( Screw Him) LOL!!!Body for life program..his program called (and this is for overweight people to a percentage) it called for six meals per day,myloplex shakes(you had to use his stuff for the program) then after the last evening meal you fast for 12-14 hrs got up do cardio for 20 min.....The prize a lambo....Damn i wanted it......followed to a t...i can say as far as EAS supplements that program was the best at building muscle naturally because i spent alomst 400.00 for the 3 mon program.


RADAR

Bro no need to sound funny but what exactly is your point? lol
 
KillerLoop said:


Bro no need to sound funny but what exactly is your point? lol


cardio will not cause muscle waasting---and fasting in the morn-nite Then cardio will dip into those fat stores ..thats what i did.. and whats the point for having something in your stomach before cardio- ok now you got energy the calories intake will be used for energy...wheres the fat burning..i mean on an empty stomach cardio will trigger the damand for carories thus burning fat.



RADAR
 
Juice authority your constant baiting of Nelson is becoming tedious.......................grow up and behave like an adult

I have been on elite fo nearly two years, I had to re-register I come here to elite to learn not to listen to your pathetic stupid and largely irreleavant comment. You are your own authority and nothing further, now please be quiet and let the adults talk.
 
I agree with RADAR on this point,I eat my last meal at 8pm then I run at 6am the following morning for 30 mins on an empty stomach , 2cups of strong coffee,train weights at 9am on an empty stomach.Then I eat at 10 am,1pm,4pm,8pm,10pm I drink with water glutamine,creatine,hmb and electrolyes 1.5mg melatonin and then sleep.I do this Mon,weds and fri of every week when cutting and just weights on saturday no cardio,tues and thurs abs.For me I prefer to train without food in my stomach but I do drink 2ltrs of water with glutamine,creatine,hmb and electrolyes during workouts ,years ago I used to eat 3hrs or so before workouts and leg sessions would make me vomit,so ever since it was on an empty stomach.But it doesnt work for everyone.I manage to get ripped and keep muscle.
 
well said andymac, i also have been around here for a couple of years, and your relentless crap and rileing of everyone is anoying people. Its about time you let sleeping dogs lie, and stop talking out your japs eye.
 
I started doing morning cardio recently, I do about 45 minutes of low intensity walking on an empty stomach. I saw a BIG difference in fat burning comnpared to cardio later in the day. I also noticed my energy levels were higher throughout the day.
 
I've done an hour of morning cardio EVERY DAY for the last 11 weeks along with a dialed in diet. Results? Down 25lbs, and I'm stroger in EVERY lift at the gym.

Did I lose any muscle? Nope, actualy have gotten thicker.

Morning cardio is not catabolic like people make it out to be.
 
andymac said:
Juice authority your constant baiting of Nelson is becoming tedious.......................grow up and behave like an adult

I have been on elite fo nearly two years, I had to re-register I come here to elite to learn not to listen to your pathetic stupid and largely irreleavant comment. You are your own authority and nothing further, now please be quiet and let the adults talk.

Baiting? Nelson has claimed all along that cardio is ineffective. I couldn't disagree more. What is the basis for his opinion??? We're all waiting on that.
 
RADAR said:



cardio will not cause muscle waasting---and fasting in the morn-nite Then cardio will dip into those fat stores ..thats what i did.. and whats the point for having something in your stomach before cardio- ok now you got energy the calories intake will be used for energy...wheres the fat burning..i mean on an empty stomach cardio will trigger the damand for carories thus burning fat.
RADAR

I totally agree with you.

For the record...Where is the evidence that back's up Nelson's position that "Doing ANY exercise on an empty stomach will not burn more fat. It is biologically impossible"??? There is NONE!
 
JG1 said:
I've done an hour of morning cardio EVERY DAY for the last 11 weeks along with a dialed in diet. Results? Down 25lbs, and I'm stroger in EVERY lift at the gym.

Did I lose any muscle? Nope, actualy have gotten thicker.

Morning cardio is not catabolic like people make it out to be.

Once again, results speak louder than opinions.
 
i did do morning cardio and lost alot of fat, muscle as well BUT my diet was not exactly good, i didnt eat 6 full meals more like 4-5, but there still was a shitload of protein. Anyhow what about all the fuss over HIT cardio? and suppoisdly its a great way to do your cardio, and that you burn cals throughout the day by doing it. Can anyone shed some light on that for me?
 
best fatloss i've experienced was on an 8 weeker cutter when i performed a 20-25 minute cardio routine about 4 times a week.

but get this one........

say you consume 50g cfm whey right before the session. by the time that protein is digested the session will already be over.

so should we have some protein (but only protein) pre a.m cardio?

my logic says yes as that protein will probably be distributed at the most critical time which is post a.m cardio.

if we choose to have our protein after the session is completed, we must keep in mind that it wont be digested for another 20 minutes or so, and dont we want amino acids immediately after our session????
 
Juice Authority said:


I totally agree with you.

For the record...Where is the evidence that back's up Nelson's position that "Doing ANY exercise on an empty stomach will not burn more fat. It is biologically impossible"??? There is NONE!

............................................


Instead of me presenting a litany of logic explaining this (since I've done so in my books, articles and even on this bard) let's keep it simple:

Show me evidence that it does.

You see, when people say that it worked for them, it's just a perception. With less food in your stomach, you're more likely to look leaner. Even the running itself will make you sweat whch gives a leaner appearence. But you do not burn more fat. As far as people losing 25 pounds over the long run, I'm sure there were other factors involved besides running on an empty stomach.

I have tried it Funkenshredded. And I'm monitored dozens of people doing it both ways. No difference.

So, JA. The ball's in your court kid. Show me all that evidence you prize so highly. I want double blind, peer reviewed university conducted research stdies that prove, (not conclude or speculate) , that doing cardio on an empty stomach burns more fat (not uses more glucose) than training with nutrients present.

Go.
 
andymac said:
Juice authority your constant baiting of Nelson is becoming tedious.......................grow up and behave like an adult

I have been on elite fo nearly two years, I had to re-register I come here to elite to learn not to listen to your pathetic stupid and largely irreleavant comment. You are your own authority and nothing further, now please be quiet and let the adults talk.

bro... you just joined last month.
so unless you know the history of this love affair.. well... you get the point?

nelson is very knowledgable but is rather closed minded to others' ideas if they contradict him. SO WHAT???
god knows i'm very close minded too sometimes. he's still a solid bro and an asset to this board.

juice authority is also full in info. a much needed bro.

NELSON.... still curious about your ealier claim.
 
Nelson Montana said:


As far as people losing 25 pounds over the long run, I'm sure there were other factors involved besides running on an empty stomach.

Who said anything about running?
 
Nelson Montana said:


............................................


Instead of me presenting a litany of logic explaining this (since I've done so in my books, articles and even on this bard) let's keep it simple:

Show me evidence that it does.

(1) WHEN YOU WAKE UP in the morning after an 8-to-12 hour overnight fast, your body's stores of gylcogen are somewhat depleted. Doing cardio in that state causes your body to mobilize more fat because of the unavailability of glycogen.

(2) EATING CAUSES A RELEASE of insulin, which interferes with the mobilization of bodyfat. Less insulin is present in the morning; therefore you burn more bodyfat when you do your cardio in the morning.

(3) THERE'S LESS CARBOHYDRATE (glucose) in your bloodstream after an overnight fast. With less glucose available, you'll burn more fat.

(4) IF YOU EAT IMMEDIATELY before a workout, you have to burn off carbs you just ate before tapping into stored bodyfat.

(5) WHEN YOU DO CARDIO IN THE MORNING, your metabolism stays elevated for a period of time after the workout is over. If you do cardio in the evening, you will benefit from it, but you fail to take advantage of teh afterburn effect because your metobolic rate drops dramatically as soon as you go to sleep.

Research supports this theory. A study performed at Kansas State University and published in Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise showed the subjects burned a kilogram (2.2 lbs.) of fat sooner when the exercised in a fasted state in the morining than when the did it later in the day.

The researchers measured respitory gas exchange, caloric expenditure, and carbohydrate/fatty acid metabolism and found that the amount of fat burned during aerobic exercise amounted to 67% of the total energy expenditure in the morning after a 12 hour fast. That's substantially higher than the 50% expenditure achieved when the subjects did the same exercise later in the day or after eating.

A similar study published in the Journal of Applied Physiology looked at the effects of aerobic exercise on lipid oxidation in fed vs. fasted states. The researchers conculded, "Our results support the hypothesis that endurance training enhances lipid oxidation in men after a 12-hour overnight fast."

Yet another paper, "Optimizing Exercise for Fat Loss," reports, "The ability of exercise to selectively promote fat oxidation should be optimized if exercise is done during morning fasted metabolism."

When it comes to "real world fat loss", few people have more experience than Chris Aceto (nutrition guru/advsior to many pro bodybuilders).

Aceto is a firm believer in morning cardio. He unequivocally states, "The fastest way to tap into stored bodyfat is to do cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach."

Aceto believes that looking at calories only in terms of energy in vs. energy out is "limited thinking." He asserts that there are more factors involved in real-world results than just energy balance. It all comes back to the old arguement, are all calories created equal?

"Absolutely not!" Aceto declares. "A calorie in not just a calorie, and exercise physiologists freak out when they hear that."

"These guys are working from the assumption that it's just a matter of calories in vs. calories out, period," Chris continues. "With that line of reasoning, they'd be forced to say that if I consumed nothing but candy bars and Coca-Cola and took in 100 calories less than maintenance, I'd lose weight. We know it's not that simple. You have to account for ratios of carbs, protein, and fat."

"Then there's meal frequency: From real-world results we know you put on more muscle mass from five or six meals a day than from three meals a day. There are more things involved than just calories."

There are many other reasons you might want to consider making morning cardio a part of your daily routine. Landry, despite his doubts about whether the fuel source matters admits, "If I had to pick a single factor I thought was most important in a succesful weight-loss program, it would have to be exercise first thing in the morning."

Here are some of the additional benefits of doing cardio early in the morning:

- It makes you feel great all day by releasing mood-enhancing endorphins.

- It energizes you and wakes you up.

- It may help regulate your appetite for the rest of the day

- Your body's circadian rhythm adjusts to your morning routine, making it easier to wake up at the same time every day

- You'll be less likely to blow off your workout when it's out of the way early.

- You can always make time for exercise by setting your alarm earlier in the morning.

- It increases your metabolic rate for hours after the session is over.

Of all those benefits, the post exercise increase in your metabolic rate is the one most talked about. Scientists call this afterburn effect "excess postexercise oxygen consumption," or EPOC.

Looking only at the number and type of calories burned during the session doesn't give you the full picture. You also need to look at the number of calories your elevated metabolism continues to burn after the workout is over.

That's right -- work out in the morning, and you burn calories all day long.

You burn somewhere between 10 and 30 calories extra after exercise at an intensity of less than 60 to 65 percent of maximal heart rate (MHR). In other words, a casual stroll on the treadmill will do next to nothing to increase your metabolism.

EPOC does increase with the intensity (and duration) of the exercise, however. According to Willmore and Costill in Physiology of Sport and Exercise, the EPOC after moderate exercise (75 to 80 percent of MHR) will amount to apporximately .25 calories per minute, or 15 calories per hour. That would provide an additional expenditure of 75 calories. An extra 75 calories is definately no earth shattering, but it does add up over time. In a year, it would mean (in theory) that you'd burn an extra 5.2 pounds of fat from the additional calories expended after your workouts.

One way to get a significant post-exercise afterburn is high-intensity interval training (HIIT). You alternate brief periods of high intensity work (85% of maximum heart rate or more) with brief periods of lower-intensity work. Studies on the effects of HIIT have demonstrated a much higher EPOC, which can add substantially to the day's calorie expenditure.

In one study scientists from the University of Alabama compared the effects of two exercise protocalls on 24 hour energy expenditure:

- Group #1 cycled for 60 minutes at a moderate intensity.

- Group #2 performed HIIT, cycling for 2 minutes at high intensity followed by 2 minutes at low-intensity.

The group that performed HIIT (group #2) burned 160 more calories in 24 hours than the low intensity group.

That would translate to an extra 11.8 pounds of fat burned in one year if they did HIIT five days per week instead of conventional low-intensity training.

Ironically, weight training has a much higher magnitude of EPOC than aerobic training.

Studies have shown increases in metabolic rate of as much as 4-7% over a 24-hour period from resistance training.

Yes - that means bodybuilding does burn fat – albeit through an indirect mechanism. For someone with an expenditure of 2500 calories per day, that could add up to 100 - 175 extra calories burned after your weight training workout is over.

The lesson is simple: Anyone interested in losing body fat who is not lifting weights should first take up a regimen of bodybuilding, then – and only then – start thinking about the morning cardio!

A common concern about doing cardio in the fasted state, especially if it’s done with high intensity, is the possibility of losing muscle. After an overnight fast, glycogen, blood glucose and insulin are all low. As we’ve already concluded, this is an optimum environment for burning fat.

Unfortunately, it may also be an optimum environment for burning muscle because carbohydrate fuel sources are low and levels of the catabolic stress hormone cortisol are high. It sounds like morning cardio might be a double-edged sword, but there are ways to avert muscle loss.

All aerobic exercise will have some effect on building muscle, but as long as you don’t overdo it, you shouldn’t worry about losing muscle. It's a fact that muscle proteins are broken down and used for energy during aerobic exercise. But you are constantly breaking down and rebuilding muscle tissue anyway. This process is called "protein turnover" and it’s a daily fact of life. Your goal is to tip the scales slightly in favor of increasing the anabolic side and reducing the catabolic side just enough so you stay anabolic and you gain or at least maintain muscle.

How do you build up more muscle than you break down? First, avoid excessive cardio. Aceto suggests limiting your cardio on an empty stomach to 30 minutes, and then it would be "highly unlikely that amino acids will be burned as fuel." He also mentions that "a strong cup of coffee should facilitate a shifting to burn more fat and less glycogen. If you can spare glycogen, you’ll ultimately spare protein too." You might also want to consider experimenting with the thermogenic ephedrine-caffeine-aspirin stack (or it’s herbal equivalent).

Second, give your body the proper nutritional support. Losing muscle probably has more to do with inadequate nutrition than with excessive aerobics. Provide yourself with the proper nutritional support for the rest of the day, including adequate meal frequency, protein, carbohydrates and total calories, and it’s not as likely that there will be a net loss of muscle tissue over each 24-hour period.

Third, keep training with heavy weights, even during a fat loss phase. Using light weights and higher reps thinking that it will help you get more "cut" is a mistake: What put the muscle on in the first place is likely to help you keep it there.

Still petrified of losing your hard-earned muscle, but you’d like to take advantage of the fat-burning and metabolism-boosting effects of morning cardio?

One strategy many bodybuilders use is to drink a protein shake or eat a protein only meal 30-60 minutes prior to the morning session. The protein without the carbs will minimize the insulin response and allow you to mobilize fat while providing amino acids to prevent muscle breakdown.

In conclusion, it seems that morning cardio has enough indisputable benefits to motivate most people to set their alarms early. But let’s talk bottom line results here:

Does it really result in more "real world fat loss" than aerobics performed at other times of the day or after eating? I have to believe it does. Experience, common sense and research all tell me so.

Nevertheless, this will obviously continue to be an area of much debate, and clearly, more research is needed. In the meantime, while the scientists are busy in their labs measuring respiratory exchange ratios, caloric expenditures and rates of substrate utilization, I’m going to keep waking up at 6:00 AM every morning to get on my elliptical.

References

1. Aceto, Chris. Everything you need to know about fat loss. Club Creavalle, Inc. (1997).

2. Bahr, R. Excess post-exercise oxygen consumption – Magnitude, Mechanisms and Practical Implications. Acta Physiol Scand. Suppl. (1992) 605. 1-70.

3. Bergman, BC, Brooks, GA. Respiratory gas-exchange ratios during graded exercise in fed and fasted trained and untrained men. Journal of Applied Physiology. (1999) 86: 2.

4. Brehm, B.A., and Gutin, B. Recovery energy expenditure for steady state exercise in runners and non-exercisers. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. (1986) 18: 205,

5. Brybner, BW. The effects of exercise intensity on body composition, weight loss, and dietary composition in women. Journal of American College of Nutrition, (1997) 16: 68-73

6. Landry, Greg. The Metabolism System for Weight Loss. Greg Landry. (2000).

7. Maehlum, S., etc al. Magnitude and duration of post exercise oxygen consumption in healthy young subjects. Metabolism (1986) 35 (5): 425-429.

8. McCarty, MF. Optimizing Exercise for Fat Loss. Medical Hypothesis. (1995) 44: 325-330
 
JG1 said:


Who said anything about running?


Running, stationary bike...whatever.

satch. With all due respect. I think I've recieved a lot more close mindedness than I give. Should I be more open mnded to wrong ideas?
 
satch read my post - I have been here for over 18 months

I know who you are lean cuisine and you aint the vet you make yourself out to be - so get off your high horse
 
I don't for one second buy this in regards to it's not more effective. Yea it works great for me and has for many others. Does it work for everyone? Can't say.

On an empty stomache after not eating since the night before and taking a fat burner I have always burned fat much quicker and more effective doing it in the morning on an empty stomach. The results have alwasy ben greater this way and I would love to do cardio at night as I ahte the mornings.

Facts for me I burn fat and get leaner much quicker and its more effective in the early morning. Maybe those who don't agree should psot pictures of how lean they look so we can all make our own choices. My pictures have been posted all over this board.
 
Nelson Montana said:


As far as people losing 25 pounds over the long run, I'm sure there were other factors involved besides running on an empty stomach.

And what other factors besides a dialed in diet?
 
JG1 said:


And what other factors besides a dialed in diet?


How about a better anabolic enviorment and/or less caloric intake than when you did a comparble amount of aerobics on a full stomach?

There are lots of factors. I wasn't there to monitor everything you did. There may be something even you overlooked. At any rate, it wasn't just the cardio on an empty stomach.

Flexed. Glad to see it's working out for you, but the same principle applies. Everyone's always scraming for proof. So far, on this issue, I'm only hearing opinion. There are lots of guys who are ripped without cardio, no less cardio on an empty stomach. I got down to 6% with no cardio at all and no thermogenics.

And for the record, please do not compare me with JA. He is a little kid that follows me around contradicting himself and getting proven wrong at every turn. We have no differences. He's just a heckler. Period.
 
Nelson Montana said:



At any rate, it wasn't just the cardio on an empty stomach.

Of course it wasn't. If my diet was shit I wouldn't have lost a single pound of body fat, even with the hour of morning cardio every day. If my diet was on point and I did NO cardio what so ever would I still have lost body fat? Sure I would have, but not at the rate I've lost it over these 10 weeks. I went from a comfortable size 36" jeans, to loose 30's. Not too mention the LBM I've added since I began dieting.....and I was natural the first 8 weeks of the diet (I added 40lbs to both my squats and DL's in this time frame).

But hey, what do I know.....cardio is bullshit, and macronutrient timing is even more bullshit, right? :rolleyes:
 
nelson, my post says it works for me. No other claims where made. Even evidence that maybe presented would cause me to disagree as again I do only what works for me not what someone else says.
 
JG1 said:



But hey, what do I know.....cardio is bullshit, and macronutrient timing is even more bullshit, right? /B]



............................................

Now you got it right.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Instead of me presenting a litany of logic explaining this (since I've done so in my books, articles and even on this bard) let's keep it simple:

Show me evidence that it does.

You see, when people say that it worked for them, it's just a perception. With less food in your stomach, you're more likely to look leaner. Even the running itself will make you sweat whch gives a leaner appearence. But you do not burn more fat. As far as people losing 25 pounds over the long run, I'm sure there were other factors involved besides running on an empty stomach.

I have tried it Funkenshredded. And I'm monitored dozens of people doing it both ways. No difference.

So, JA. The ball's in your court kid. Show me all that evidence you prize so highly. I want double blind, peer reviewed university conducted research stdies that prove, (not conclude or speculate) , that doing cardio on an empty stomach burns more fat (not uses more glucose) than training with nutrients present.

Go.

Nelson, when I was cutting I would take 2 NYC's on an empty stomach and run the treadmill at 6:30AM in the morning before work for 45 minutes at 65%. The results I got from that speak for itself but I am also an advocate of presenting scientific data that collaborates my position as I have done in the past with you. Even at that you still refuse to see the truth yet your book is titled "The Truth about Bodybuilding". How ironic and contradictory. Be it as it may, I will present scientific facts that support the notion that cardio on an empty stomach in the AM will burn fat.
 
Juice Authority said:

I will present scientific facts that support the notion that cardio on an empty stomach in the AM will burn fat.


Anytime you're ready.
 
Will show two sides of the argument. Found in a search. Personally I go back to what I said do what works best for you.

"Continuous cardiovascular exercise, such as walking, jogging, stairclimbing, or cycling, sustained for at least 30 minutes, will burn body fat no matter when you do it. However, if you want to get the maximum benefits possible from every minute you invest in your workouts, then you should consider getting up early and doing cardio before you eat your first meal - even if you're not a "morning person." Early morning aerobic exercise on an empty stomach has three major advantages over exercising later in the day.

First of all, morning cardio burns more fat! Early in the morning before you eat, your levels of muscle and liver glycogen (stored carbohydrate) are low. If you eat dinner at 7 p.m and you eat breakfast at 7 a.m., that's 12 hours without food. During this 12-hour overnight fast, your levels of glycogen slowly decline to provide glucose for various bodily functions that go on even while you sleep. As a result, you wake up in the morning with depleted glycogen and lower blood sugar - the optimum environment for burning fat instead of carbohydrate. How much more fat you'll burn is uncertain, but some studies have suggested that up to 300% more fat is burned when cardio is done in a fasted, glycogen-depleted state.

So how exactly does this work? It's quite simple, really. Carbohydrate (glycogen) is your body's primary and preferred energy source. When your primary fuel source is in short supply, this forces your body to tap into its secondary or reserve energy source; body fat. If you do cardio immediately after eating a meal, you'll still burn fat, but you'll burn less of it because you'll be burning off the carbohydrates you ate first. You always burn a combination of fat and carbohydrate for fuel, but depending on when you exercise, you can burn a greater proportion of fat relative to carbohydrate. If doing cardio first thing in the morning is not an option for you, then the second best time to do it would be immediately after weight training. Lifting weights is anaerobic (carbohydrate-burning) by nature, and therefore depletes muscle glycogen. That's why a post lifting cardio session has a similar effect as morning cardio on an empty stomach.

The second benefit you'll get from early morning cardio sessions is what I call the "afterburn" effect. When you do a cardio session in the morning, you not only burn fat during the session, but you also continue to burn fat at an accelerated rate after the workout. Why? Because an intense session of cardiovascular exercise can keep your metabolism elevated for hours after the session is over. If you do cardio at night, you will still burn fat during the session, so you definitely benefit from it. However, nighttime cardio fails to take advantage of the "afterburn" effect because your metabolism drops like a ton of bricks as soon as you go to sleep. While you sleep, your metabolic rate is slower than any other time of the day.

Burning more fat isn't the only reason you should do your cardio early. The third benefit of morning workouts is the "rush" and feeling of accomplishment that stays with you all day long after an invigorating workout. Exercise can become a pleasant and enjoyable experience, but the more difficult or challenging it is for you, the more important it is to get it out of the way early. When you put off any task you consider unpleasant, it hangs over you all day long, leaving you with a feeling of guilt, stress and incompleteness (not to mention that you are more likely to "blow off" an evening workout if you are tired from a long day at work or if your pals try to persuade you to join them at the pub for happy hour.)

You might find it hard to wake up early in the morning and get motivated to workout. But think back for a moment to a time in your life when you tackled a difficult task and you finished it. Didn't you feel great afterwards? Completing any task, especially a physically challenging one, gives you a "buzz." When the task is exercise, the buzz is physiological and psychological. Physiologically, exercise releases endorphins in your body. Endorphins are opiate-like hormones hundreds of times more powerful than the strongest morphine. Endorphins create a natural "high" that makes you feel positively euphoric! Endorphins reduce stress, improve your mood, increase circulation and relieve pain. The "high" is partly psychological too. Getting up early and successfully achieving a small goal kick starts your day and gives you feelings of completion, satisfaction and accomplishment. For the rest of the day you feel happy and you feel less stress knowing that a difficult part of the day is behind you. "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
posted on Dave Drapers page


Exercising on an empty stomach is not the best way to go. Research studies have indicated that the number of calories burned is far less than when exercising after a meal. A small meal of 300-400 calories an hour before training will allow you to train harder. You will get about a 10% increase in metabolic rate alone from eating the food, you will be able to train harder as blood glucose levels will not go to super low levels, and you will have a better anabolic hormone response.

My weight loss clients and weight gain clients eat about the same number of meals per day with similar timing strategies. What differs primarily is the calorie load.

Exercising on an empty stomach does not force the body to burn more fat. In some cases it forces it to break down more muscle to get at amino acids. They are deaminated, converted into glucose and then help supply the body with energy. Small amounts of glucose (via conversion into a Kreb's cycle intermediate) are needed to burn fat. Tom

----

In simple man terms (my terms), excessively hard cardio with no energy to back it up causes the body to freak and go after muscle not fat. My experience tells me it actually mimics a starvation mode and actually retards the body's use of fat for energy and starts after hard earned muscle mass. So, here is how I go about it. IF I cardio on an empty stomach, I go at no higher than 65-70%. I will go to 85% if I have had a small meal prior to. Certainly not scientific but with tinkering, I have figured out how my systems react.
 
NELSON...

my bad bro.
forgive me.

its just that at times, i feel like what seems like the consensus is argued by you. like the clomid issue for example. the cardio concept too. (although i personally agree it)

perhaps your theories are indeed correct but is seems like at the present time some will not subscribe to them.
 
i can not belive how many idiots are on this board.
when u wake up u are in catabolism state. and when u go to do cardio on empty stomach, guess what, musle is wasted.

understand one thing, when u do cardio u do not burn body fat!
thats a myth. u burn calories and not body fat.
otherwise i would go and do 8 hours cardio and i would be 3% bodyfat!

cardio speeds up your metabolism and burn calories but u are not burning bodyfat once u are doing cardio.


the best bet is to have a protein shake after waking up and than go do cardio.
 
Here you go Nelson -

Running on empty
by Josh Salzmann


I prefer exercising right after I wake up. Is it bad to work out on an empty stomach?

The advantage of working out on an empty stomach first thing in the morning is that you have just enough energy stored from the night before to fuel your workout, and you also have a greater chance of burning stored fat, which will cause you to lose weight. This is due to the fact that, because your stomach is empty, you are more likely to burn calories already stored as fat, as opposed to using calories from recently digested food in your system.

Working out on an empty stomach does not speed up your metabolism. But it does help to kick-start it by increasing your heart rate, circulation and the amount of incoming oxygen, all things which help your body function more efficiently throughout the day.

Exercising for more than 30 minutes on an empty stomach or at the end of the day is unhealthy and unadvisable since, without the necessary energy to fuel your workout, your body will start using your muscles as an energy source. This is not an efficient form of energy, and you may overexert yourself and experience dizziness or dehydration.

Weight training on an empty stomach is also not advisable, since a lot of energy is required for this kind of workout. Without the necessary energy, you won’t be able to work your muscles efficiently and increase muscle mass. Weight training is one of the best ways to burn calories and consequently lose weight, because the more muscle you have, the more calories you burn. So, despite what most people think, starving yourself is the least effective way to lose weight, especially if you want the results to last.

Although working out on an empty stomach can help you lose weight, it will not happen overnight, and should not be used as a long-term solution to weight loss. Maintaining a healthy weight requires a lifestyle that includes a balanced diet and regular exercise.

For more information about Josh Salzmann, visit www.salzmann-fitness.com.

November 2001

The question-of-the-month for November comes from Paul in Ft. Lauderdale, FL, who asks about pre-workout food intake and training on an empty stomach. His question is:

Dear Mike:

My question regards pre-workout food intake. I get up and get to the gym first thing in the morning and it's tough to get a meal in. Can I work out on an empty stomach? If I need to eat beforehand, what and how much of an interval before I hit the gym?

Dear Paul:

Thank you for your great question. This is one of the most important issues when it comes to gaining muscle. Eating before lifting weights is a NECESSITY. Training on an empty stomach (i.e. first thing in the morning before eating) will cause your body to dip into protein stores for energy. As all of you know, muscle is made up of protein. Therefore, if you lift before eating, you will burn muscle. Obviously, this is not what we want to do. So, yes, make sure you eat before training. What should you eat? I recommend eating a meal that consists of 65% carbohydrates, 30% protein, and 5% fat 45-90 minutes before training. Experiment with this time frame to find out what works best for you. Some people need more time after eating than others.

On the other hand, I do recommend doing cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. This is the best way to burn body fat. I have seen some studies that say doing cardio in this manner can burn 400%-600% more body fat than doing cardio after having a carbohydrate meal.

What if you train in the morning and don't have time to do both your workout and cardio? Your best option would be to eat in the morning and then train (as I recommend above). You would then do your cardio last thing at night before going to bed (i.e. you would not eat anything after doing your cardio).

You may also want to check out the June 2000 Question-of-the-Month where I give a sample pre- and post-workout meal.

Good luck and keep training hard. Thanks again for your question.

As always, don't forget to visit the Past Qs & As and my Training Tips section for more great tips and training info.

Until next month, train hard and stay healthy.

Mike Francois

http://www.mikefrancois.com/nov2001.htm
 
JG1 said:


Sorry bout that :(

Not your fault bro. :) It's just that these kinds of threads always raise hell on elite, lol.

BTW, what heart rate do you run at? How do you find out the best heart rate to run at? I always just run for the sake of running, but I figure I might as well do it by the book. Any good articles that you know of on the subject?

Thanks. :)

I love how right after cardio I look so nice and lean due to the drop of water retention. :D

-sk
 
Nelson Montana said:

Anytime you're ready.

Here's more:

NFPT Personal Trainer Magazine

by
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nfpt.com/Library/Articles/hunger_training.htm

Have you ever heard the phrase “stay hungry”? If you’re a long-term bodybuilding fan chances are you have. The Austrian Oak himself, Arnold Schwarzenegger, made this phrase popular. So popular in fact that one of the first films he ever appeared in was called Stay Hungry! Once again it seems the bodybuilding community is one step ahead of the scientists. It turns out that hunger pangs can generally be relieved by a bout of moderate to intense resistance exercise, and that training performance is enhanced when training on an empty stomach.


The practice of training hungry definitely should be considered a vital weapon in all resistance exercise programs. In the simplest of terms, resistance exercise and eating do not mix! Moreover, hunger pangs in themselves should not dictate meal timing. In fact, the sensation of hunger has absolutely nothing to do with intelligently planned meal timing. For example, the post-exercise meal is considered by many experts to be the most important meal of the day, as it is vital that recovery energy be provided as soon as possible following a workout. The replacement of expended energy and the maintenance of a positive nitrogen balance is a must. This post-exercise meal should ideally be ingested within a very short period after the workout. And, as we now know, the exercise just performed has effectively soothed the nagging pre-workout hunger pangs. This means that to eat intelligently, more often than not, one needs to eat in the absence of hunger pangs (directly after the exercise session for example). Hence, the sensation of hunger should play no roll in establishing proper meal timing and practicing healthy eating habits, rather it should be considered a preliminary starvation warning to be avoided. The faster the metabolism, the more often the warning. It can be generalized that when adhering to an optimum nutrition program hunger pangs should not even be experienced (except just prior to the workout), as meal timing should be quite frequent.


Training hungry also has biological value. Upon eating, food travels to the small intestine where almost all digestion occurs. The conversion and use of broken down nutrients becomes a priority to the body. In order to transport these newly absorbed nutrients to various organs and body tissues, the blood vessels in and around muscle tissues constrict while vessels in and around digestion dilate. This forces blood away from muscles and towards the digestive system, minimizing oxygen and nutrient provision to the muscles. In understanding this physiological occurrence, imagine ingesting food just prior to training. Digestion is occurring at the same time activity is being performed. This results in a “tug-of-war” between muscles and digestion, both desperately in need of increased blood flow for the purpose of oxygen and nutrient transport. What happens as a result? Exercise will be more taxing, and digestion will be compromised as neither will receive adequate blood flow. What are typical signs of this “tug-of-war”? Excessive rapid breathing, abnormally high exercise heart rate, nausea, and dizziness. The degree of discomfort and severity of the above symptoms will vary according to the intensity being used. When these symptoms occur, it would be appropriate to stop training.


What considerations should be made when setting up the pre-workout meal, you ask?

#1-The kind of food ingested in the pre-workout meal is important. Proteins and lots of light carbs would be appropriate. Generally speaking, select complex carbs that are digested easily to insure there is minimal digestion occurring at the onset of your workout. Since it is always important to include protein in every meal, and protein takes somewhat longer to assimilate, meal timing is also among the most important considerations in pre-workout meal planning, and will be discussed later.


#2-Make your pre-workout meal a small one. There is no reason to ingest any more than about 500 calories before a resistance training workout since the majority of energy used during resistance training will come from inside muscle tissues. This low number of total pre-workout calories should help to insure there is minimal digestion occurring at the onset of exercise, thus freeing up more blood for the purpose of transporting much needed nutrients and oxygen to working muscles for optimum performance.


#3-Eat the pre-workout meal about 2-3 hours before your scheduled workout. In most cases, this should provide plenty of time for the absorption of the small 500 calorie pre-workout meal.


In summary, workout performance is improved greatly when training hungry through proper pre-workout meal planning, and the consequent re-routing of the cardiovascular system. Of additional importance is the knowledge that hunger should never dictate meal planning. In a perfect world, hunger should only be experienced just prior to a workout. The frequency of meal timing throughout the remainder of the day should be such that hunger is not experienced. There you have it. NEVER eat when you’re hungry...train! And when the hunger is gone...eat! Good luck and great gains!
 
http://forum.lowcarber.org/t21258-4.html

I took this excerpt (left out the part about how he said to maintain a low-fat diet!) from an article on askmen.com by Ian Lee entitled "Fat Burning Morning Workouts." Just adding some more info on the positives of AM cardio on am empty stomach!

Now, here's why cardio training in the morning is a great way to blast fat:
Your levels of muscle and liver glycogen (also called stored carbohydrates) are normally very low when you wake up first thing in the morning. With depleted glycogen and lower blood sugar, you'll give your body the perfect environment to burn fat instead of carbohydrates.

Carbohydrates or glycogen are your body's primary and preferred source of energy. When they're low, your body will tap into your secondary energy reserve, which is your body fat. The idea here is similar to when the engine taps into the car's reserve tank because it's low on fuel.

Obviously, your body is way more complex than your car's gas tank. It always burns up a combination of carbohydrates and fat. However, the less carbohydrates you have, the more fat your body will burn.

Are you convinced yet? If so, great -- but expect an adjustment period. The same way you're jet-lagged after an overseas trip or drowsy when you suddenly have to switch from the graveyard shift to a regular 9 to 5 shift, training in the morning will require some lag time.

Normally, it should take approximately three weeks for your body to fully adjust to the time change. You'll start feeling fully energized; you'll wake up more easily and will generally be more alert.

Now all you need is a louder alarm clock to help you get up those first few weeks. Before you know it, you'll be a lean, mean, morning machine. Good luck and keep on pumpin'.
 
Juice Authority - 1

Nelson - 0.

I've said this before, but I'd bet nelson would argue with a stop sign if given a chance.
 
http://www.femalemuscle.com/nutrition/morningaerobics.html

Venuto on Nutrition



- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Tom Venuto

When is the best time of day to do your aerobic exercise? The answer is any time! The most important thing is that you just do it. Continuous cardiovascular exercise, such as walking, jogging, stairclimbing, or cycling, sustained for at least 30 minutes, will burn body fat no matter when you do it. However, if you want to get the maximum benefits possible from every minute you invest in your workouts, then you should consider getting up early and doing cardio before you eat your first meal - even if you're not a "morning person." Early morning aerobic exercise on an empty stomach has three major advantages over exercising later in the day.

First of all, morning cardio burns more fat! Early in the morning before you eat, your levels of muscle and liver glycogen (stored carbohydrate) are low. If you eat dinner at 7 p.m and you eat breakfast at 7 a.m., that's 12 hours without food. During this 12-hour overnight fast, your levels of glycogen slowly decline to provide glucose for various bodily functions that go on even while you sleep. As a result, you wake up in the morning with depleted glycogen and lower blood sugar - the optimum environment for burning fat instead of carbohydrate. How much more fat you'll burn is uncertain, but some studies have suggested that up to 300% more fat is burned when cardio is done in a fasted, glycogen-depleted state.

So how exactly does this work? It's quite simple, really. Carbohydrate (glycogen) is your body's primary and preferred energy source. When your primary fuel source is in short supply, this forces your body to tap into its secondary or reserve energy source; body fat. If you do cardio immediately after eating a meal, you'll still burn fat, but you'll burn less of it because you'll be burning off the carbohydrates you ate first. You always burn a combination of fat and carbohydrate for fuel, but depending on when you exercise, you can burn a greater proportion of fat relative to carbohydrate. If doing cardio first thing in the morning is not an option for you, then the second best time to do it would be immediately after weight training. Lifting weights is anaerobic (carbohydrate-burning) by nature, and therefore depletes muscle glycogen. That's why a post lifting cardio session has a similar effect as morning cardio on an empty stomach.

The second benefit you'll get from early morning cardio sessions is what I call the "afterburn" effect. When you do a cardio session in the morning, you not only burn fat during the session, but you also continue to burn fat at an accelerated rate after the workout. Why? Because an intense session of cardiovascular exercise can keep your metabolism elevated for hours after the session is over. If you do cardio at night, you will still burn fat during the session, so you definitely benefit from it. However, nighttime cardio fails to take advantage of the "afterburn" effect because your metabolism drops like a ton of bricks as soon as you go to sleep. While you sleep, your metabolic rate is slower than any other time of the day.

Burning more fat isn't the only reason you should do your cardio early. The third benefit of morning workouts is the "rush" and feeling of accomplishment that stays with you all day long after an invigorating workout. Exercise can become a pleasant and enjoyable experience, but the more difficult or challenging it is for you, the more important it is to get it out of the way early. When you put off any task you consider unpleasant, it hangs over you all day long, leaving you with a feeling of guilt, stress and incompleteness (not to mention that you are more likely to "blow off" an evening workout if you are tired from a long day at work or if your pals try to persuade you to join them at the pub for happy hour.)

You might find it hard to wake up early in the morning and get motivated to workout. But think back for a moment to a time in your life when you tackled a difficult task and you finished it. Didn't you feel great afterwards? Completing any task, especially a physically challenging one, gives you a "buzz." When the task is exercise, the buzz is physiological and psychological. Physiologically, exercise releases endorphins in your body. Endorphins are opiate-like hormones hundreds of times more powerful than the strongest morphine. Endorphins create a natural "high" that makes you feel positively euphoric! Endorphins reduce stress, improve your mood, increase circulation and relieve pain. The "high" is partly psychological too. Getting up early and successfully achieving a small goal kick starts your day and gives you feelings of completion, satisfaction and accomplishment. For the rest of the day you feel happy and you feel less stress knowing that a difficult part of the day is behind you.

So, you say you're not a morning person? Take heart; neither am I. I can sleep in like you wouldn't believe! But I get up anyway because I know the effort is worth the results. When I have a bodybuilding goal that I am clearly focused on, such as reaching 4% or 5% body fat for a competition, I'm on my Stairmaster for 45 minutes every morning at the crack of dawn without fail. Sure it's a challenge at first, but you know what? After a few short weeks, It's no longer a chore and I'm "in the groove" - and you will be too. Just try it. Make a commitment to yourself to do it for just 21 days. Once those 21 days have gone by, you'll already be leaner and you'll be on your way to making morning workouts a habit that's as natural as brushing your teeth or taking a shower. Once you start getting used to feeling that buzz, you'll become "positively addicted" to it. The more you do it, the more you'll want to do it. Before you know it, early morning cardio will be your new habit, you'll be leaner, your metabolism will be faster and you'll feel fantastic all day long!
 
poantrex said:
Juice Authority - 4

Nelson - 0.

I've said this before, but I'd bet nelson would argue with a stop sign if given a chance.

http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/locke17.htm

Since it is next to impossible to possess a ripped and lean body while adding any substantial amount of muscle mass, most bodybuilders follow an on/off-season diet and training plan. During off-season training, cardio should be limited to once a week to ensure all possible calories are used to build as much muscle mass as possible. However, during the on-season, cardio should be performed up to 4 times a week to eat away at bodyfat stored during the off-season.
Cardiovascular exercise is one of the most important keys to getting that well defined, muscular physique. Similar to resistance training, there is science involved with cardio to heighten its results. The amount of bodyfat lost is in direct relation to the number of fat burning elements you zero in on.

1. Timing - It is most effective to perform your cardio session when you first wake up in the morning, on an empty stomach. It is best to perform cardio on an empty stomach because your body will tap into its fat stores for energy, instead of having to burn carbs and then start burning fat. Although this is the ideal timing for cardio, it may be just as effective late in the afternoon if a proper diet is followed.

2. Intensity? Intensity for cardio is defined as the percentage of your maximum heart rate used while performing a particular exercise. To burn fat most effectively, you want to try and hit approximately 65% of your maximum heart rate. This is known as the ideal fat burning zone. To determine your maximum heart rate, subtract your age from 220 and multiply it by 0.65. This will be the ideal number of heart beats per minute to maximize fat burning benefits from your cardio.

(220 - your age)(0.65) = Ideal heart rate for cardio

3. Duration - If you're a bodybuilder, chances are you aren't doing cardio to become a marathon competitor. Cardio is used by bodybuilders to help increase oxygen flow to muscles and burn excess bodyfat. For best results, cardio should only be performed three to four times a week, on non-resistance training days. You should increase the length of your cardio session by 5 minutes each week until you reach a total of 30-35 minutes.

4. Warm-Up/Cool-Down - Rushing into or out of a cardio session will place unnecessary stress on the heart, muscles, connective tissue and joints. Stretch before you walk, walk before you jog and jog before you run. The key to avoiding injuries is to start slow. Gradually increase the pace over a three to five minute period until you reach your ideal heart rate. At the end of your workout, use a three to five minute cool down period in which you should walk to ease your heart rate back to normal.

5. Nutrition - No matter how good your diet is, you will never reach your maximum definition potential without cardio. The opposite also holds true, no matter how much cardio you do, you will never reach you maximum definition potential without a well thought out diet. Nutrition during cut-up is just as important as nutrition during bulk-up. In order to burn fat, you must burn more calories than you consume. To figure out your daily caloric maintenance, multiply your bodyweight by 15-17, depending on your activity level. This figure represents how many calories your body needs each day to maintain your current muscle mass. When reducing calories, drop by increments of 500 every 10 days to avoid placing your body in a starvation mode and eating away at muscle tissue. To play it safe, I bump my protein intake up to 2.0 grams per pound of bodyweight. For more information on getting ripped, read my article called Cut-Up Program.

(Body weight)(16) = Daily caloric maintenance level

6. Supplements - As you know, I'm a firm believer that sound nutrition is vital to your success as a bodybuilder. Likewise, supplements are also essential to developing an awesome physique. While performing cardio to attain a state of superior definition, I recommend using three different types of supplements:

1. Multi-Vitamin/Mineral: Helps maintain the body and boosts your immune system.
2. Thermogenics: Elevates your metabolism which burns fat faster and increases intensity
3. Whey Protein: This is an easy way to reinforce the high protein diet
My Cardio Schedule:

Off-Season: 1 cardio workout per week for 25 minutes at 50% intensity.
Week 1: 2 cardio workouts for 30 minutes each at 55% intensity.
Weeks 2: 3 cardio workouts for 30 minutes each at 60% intensity.
Weeks 3 till end: 4 cardio workouts for 35 minutes each, with 65% intensity.
Train safely, effectively and most importantly, keep it natural.
LOCKE
 
poantrex said:
Juice Authority - 5

Nelson - 0.

I've said this before, but I'd bet nelson would argue with a stop sign if given a chance.

http://www.muscleenhancers.com/definition-article6.htm

Cardio

The best form of cardio is almost as debated as what is the best form of weight training. Should you do cardio on an empty stomach? How long should you do cardio for? At what intensity? There are so many variables in is not funny. I will hope to answer some of these questions for you.

Question 1. What form should my cardio take?

Firstly, I must state I will be mainly concerned with two forms, high intensity intervals (HII) and low intensity, long duration cardio (LILDC). Studies have shown females respond better to HII while men respond better to LILDC, which could explain why females are so successful in the Body for Life challenge. To see an example of HII check out my previous article on Better cardio: 20 mins to a leaner you. LILDC is simply riding an exercise bike or treadmill for 30-45 mins.

Question 2. Should I do cardio before breakfast?

Short answer yes, long answer you bet. There is some concern however if you do cardio first thing you are likely to burn more muscle than fat. But that is not necessarily the case. here are the positives of cardio first thing.

You are in a fasted state, glycogen levels are low therefore you will burn more fat. Because you haven't eaten insulin levels are low, insulin interferes with the mobilization and burning of fat. If you eat before cardio you simply will burn what you just ate, not fat. It releases endorphins making you fell good for the rest of the day. The list goes on. But as I said there is a concern for muscle loss. If you are really paranoid have a protein-only meal 30 mins before your cardio but no fat or carbs. Losing muscle due to early morning cardio is simply a result of a bad diet overall and can be avoided if your protein intake is high. Question 3. Should I do cardio before or after weights? Neither. I personally prefer to do cardio on my days off from the gym. This is how I would set up a training schedule.

Mon: Weights
Tues: Cardio
Wed: Weights
Thurs: Cardio
Fri: Weights
Sat: Cardio
Sun: Rest

Question 4. Is there any secret that will give me more 'bang for my cardio buck'?

Secret, no. Tips, yes.

1. Do cardio where your body weight comes into play. Walking etc. 2 reasons firstly it is load bearing and is good for the bones whereas swimming and cycling are not, also you will burn more calories. A 200lb person will burn more calories while walking than a 150lb person, however they would burn the same if the both rode a stationary bike.

2. Do your cardio on a treadmill on a incline. The treadmills I have used go up to 15 degrees so I set it to 15 degrees. A 200lb person walking on a flat treadmill will only burn 4-6 calories per minute but walking at 15 degrees they will burn 20 calories per min. It roughly is 3-4 times as many calories.


Question 5. How long should I go for?

HII anywhere from 20-30 mins.
LILDC I suggest 30-45 mins.


If you are really paranoid and you trained before breakfast maybe add 10 mins before dinner but no more.
 
Hmmm.

Well, several relevant studies have now been posted, and there are dozens of other studies that verify this same thing. Morning cardio on an empty stomach is more effective for fatloss than the same regimen performed in the evening on a full stomach.

Not only is the logic at once obvious, but now you have the 'scientific data' you requested.

Nelson, I certainly do not mean to be confrontational here, but I am a bit confused at your commitment to sophistry. It is a mystery why someone with your intellect and experience would adhere so stringently to an idea that not only defies logic, but has been disproven.

Especially when I consider your claims of having studied this very issue in a regimented, deliberate fashion and documented the results 'for dozens of people'.

Surely if that were the case you would have published the specific routines and results, yes? Isn't that research worth publishing in detail? I must admit that I cannot find very many publications of yours, and the one's that I have examined have not included the specifics of this study (or studies) that you conducted.

I would expect to find in your study a detailed synopsis of diet, training routine, and daily bodyweight/composition records, and that the diet and training regimen would be identicle for both groups with the exception of the time of day and state of nutritional intake for the control group in relation to when the cardio was performed.

I would expect to see identicle blood glucose levels for both groups if it is in fact true that the impact of the exercise was identicle for both groups.

Or, I would expect to see some data supporting the notion that blood glucose levels have nothing to do with energy expenditure.

In fact, I am already curios as to how you would answer these questions:

Where does the body draw from for aerobic exertion if blood glucose is below, say 40?

Does the body react identically to anaerobic exercise and aerobic exercise?

Will the body completely deplete blood glucose while exercising?

What causes the body to burn glucose preferentially, and what is the alternative source of energy?

What causes a body to burn protien instead of fat, and vice versa?

I think that by answering these questions you can help me understand the reasoning behind your position, and that way I can have some actual information to consider instead of an opinion.

Is that fair enough?

Again, I am not trying to sound arrogant or condescending here, because I am open to the possibility that I and many others are mistaken about this, and that our findings are attributable to something other than what we attribute them to, in which case I am eager to discover what that might be. It's just that I am one of few who actually get down to sub-6% levels of fat, and ALL of the people I know that achieve this believe the way that I do, and coupled with my own study (yes I documented my own results thoroughly and in an accurate way) on myself, you have the reasons why I subscribe to this way of thinking.

In other words, its not only obvious, but I've proven it to myself.

Would you be willing to help me understand the errors in my logic?
 
sk* said:



BTW, what heart rate do you run at? How do you find out the best heart rate to run at? I always just run for the sake of running, but I figure I might as well do it by the book. Any good articles that you know of on the subject?

Thanks. :)

I love how right after cardio I look so nice and lean due to the drop of water retention. :D

-sk

I don't run, I just do a fast walk. 4.0mph on the treadmill at a 3 degree incline for 60 minutes every morning, 7 days/week. I just added a second cardio session (hour on the treadmill) on my non-training days in the evening and the results after only a few sessions are very apparant already. I used to be so afraid of cardio, thinking I would shrink to nothing in no time at all, that just simply isn't the truth at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sk*
Let's take a look at the reasoning for doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach...

1. Glycogen is depleted therefore more fat is burned - This is the major benefit people who push this method use to support their position. What they fail to realize is that anyone with weight training experience has (or should have) more muscle than is needed to sustain a healthy life. All of this extra muscle is detrimental to the survival of a human! Why? First of all, the individual body has one purpose in life. That purpose is survival. Fat is a much more efficient energy source for survival because it is not energy costly - it does not require calories to sustain. On top of this, fat is slower burning, as it is more calories dense. Therefore muscle will be burned before fat when in a state of starvation, as fat would keep you alive longer! That's the catch - just because glycogen stores are depleted that doesn't mean the body will just go straight to fat stores for its energy. How great that would be! Unfortunately, it's just not that simple. In the morning, glycogen is substantially depleted, in effect, so is ATP. If you have read some of my other articles you would know that ATP is the only source of energy for muscular contraction.

Heavy productive weight training depletes glycogen and ATP with each contraction. ATP is not only the fuel for muscular contraction, it also plays a large role in protein synthesis and repair itself. After weight training ATP and glycogen are depleted (heavy weight training uses the anaerobic glycolysis mechanism on ATP production), and time is needed for glycogen stores to replenish. Glycogen replenishment can take up to 3 days to complete! If you deplete more glycogen than is necessary you are putting your body through unnecessary stress, which will inhibit your bodies ability to build muscle! Less ATP means less energy for proteins synthesis. It's apparent that you want to stimulate as much muscle growth as possible, with the smallest amount of glycogen and ATP depletion, which means that you should train as little as possible, while still achieving the desired results.

So how does this matter in this situation? Cardio in the morning on an empty stomach means cardio with little glycogen, and thus little ATP. Remember that cardiovascular work requires muscle fibers to contract. Just because an activity is aerobic doesn't mean it does not require muscle fibers to perform the work. The primary source of contraction during aerobic work is the Type I muscle fibers. They are called upon during aerobic work because they have a long fatigue threshold meaning - they can maintain contraction for long periods of time. Type I fibers use the oxidative phosphorylation (Kreb's cycle and electron transport) - an aerobic mechanism for energy production. This is the method of energy production in which the body metabolizes carbohydrates and fats to produce energy. The body may also use protein when carbohydrate and/or fat energy are not available through a process called gluconeogenesis. Carbs are used primarily for this, and consequently in aerobic work. This method of energy production produces, bar far, the most amount of energy. You can literally keep going forever until you pass out with this energy system. The reason for this is because the body will catabolize itself in order to meet energy demands. You guessed it - IT WILL BREAK DOWN MUSCLE TISSUE FOR ENERGY. Don't get me wrong here, the body will also break down fat for energy. I'm sure you have been taught in high school biology that fat is the preferred energy source during aerobic exercise. This is completely true for those who do not have any "excess" muscle sitting on their bones. You see, when we weight train we create an environment in which the body is forced to synthesize new proteins in order to protect itself from future stress. This is a basic principle in weight training - super compensation and overload. Overload is the means in inducing progressive super compensation. The body will not synthesize protein it doesn't need. This matters because during aerobic exercise the body has three choices in going about meeting the energy requirements. It can...

1. Use stored glycogen.

2. Use stored fat.

3. Use stored amino acids (muscle).

When we do cardio in the morning on an empty stomach we pretty much eliminate option one. Muscle glycogen stores can never be 100% depleted, if they were we wouldn't be able to move. But, there are three places where glycogen can be found in the body (remember - we don't actually eat glycogen). The first place is in the liver, the second place is in the muscles, and the third place is in the blood stream. In the morning, after your 6-10 hours with no energy (food) liver glycogen will be just about depleted, blood glycogen will have been burned for energy, and muscle glycogen will have been severely depleted. What this means is that your body is in a state of extreme catabolism, it is literally breaking down muscle at an alarming rate. This is because when the liver runs out of glycogen it takes alanine, arginine and the other substrates, from the muscles in order to make more. This is muscle breakdown (atrophy). After waking up, you start to do activities (yes, going to the bathroom and watching TV is an "activity"). What this means is that you are increasing the bodies immediate energy requirement, which means - more muscle being broken down to meet energy needs. Then, the worst thing you can do at this time is to introduce aerobic activity. This means another increase in energy requirement, and further increase in muscle catabolism. Not a good situation to put your body in. Simply having a light meal before this activity would prevent all of this. The body would be taken out of its extremely catabolic state, it would have immediate energy other than muscle to use as fuel, and you will also have more energy to do your cardio with. More effort going into your cardio equals more benefits coming out of it.

2. Increased metabolism for the rest of the day - This one is completely sensible. The thing is - the amount of food and the amount or glycogen you posses have no effect on this. Cardio in the morning is NOT a bad thing; cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is the bad thing. The solution to muscle catabolism? Eat before your cardio.
That is, in a nutshell, why cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is not beneficial
 
Okay, a couple of flaws in your thinking here. First off, just because glycogen is low does NOT mean that the primary source of energy is muscle.

Here is simple proof:

A pound of muscle = 600 calories. Now, if I work out on an empty stomach and deplete my glycogen stores, and then burn another 4000 calories (I've done that many times, don't bother arguing it), then wouldn't it stand to reason that I burned up about seven pounds of muscle?

And doing this daily for say, two weeks...should I not be dead?

How do you account for the fact that I in fact lose NO muscle this way? Remember, we have a protective element with some of the chemistries we are putting in our bodies, but another thing to remember is that THE BODY BECOMES ITS FUNCTION.

IF the body is utilizing muscle to lift weights, etc, then it is NOT going to draw from the muscle cell first.

I realize that a lot of so called sciece (very little actual research backs it up) suggests that muscle deteriorates at this terrifying rate if you do cardio with no glycogen stores.

Well, it is true that something deteriorates at a terrifying rate, and its FAT.

How do I know?

Because I actually take r-ALA on an empty stomach in the a.m. along with doing cardio, all after eliminating carbs in the afternoon on the previous day.

And yet I lose no muscle, or MUCH less than what you are suggesting, and moreover, I lose fat.

Not only that, by doing such a regimen oonly twice a week I eat what I wish, more or less, and stay at about 7% NOT ON CYCLE.

I have pics of me right this second, NOT ON ANYTHING AND 7% to prove it, should anyone care to challenge my assertion.

Of course many of you will say that I have no muscle anyway...lol...and I guess you would be right if you compare me to the big boys on this board.

But lets also consider that the excessive musculature exhibited by today's mass freaks could very well be considered a pathology. Certainly the body struggles to rid itwelf of that muscle and must be manipulated chemically to maintain it even for a little while.

In light of that we can hardly blame cardio for muscle loss.

Your point about increased metabolism the rest of the day is pretty accurate as far as I know.

Sometimes scientific theory just doesn't dovetail with actual fact. That's why the actual physical studies posted carry so much more weight than any amount of scientific explanations to the contrary.

I mean, science says bumblebees can't fly, humans can't run four minute miles, and someone who looks like Lyle Lovett can't date Julia Roberts.

Science ain't fact, it's just science.
 
Last time I looked at myself I had plenty of muscle. Pound for pound and at my height enough to challenge anybody and I don't use steriods year round and have not for a while and do my cardio on an empty stomach almost everyday for 25 minutes. And last time I checked I was far from an "idiot"
 
What about regular cardio vs. HIIT cardio, morning on empty stomach? What proves to be the best?

What about the best heart beat frequency for the achievement of fat loss (and preserving muscle of course)??

thanx
 
JG1

JG1, would you post your diet. Sounds like it worked well for you!

I do cardio in the morning on an empty stomach by the way. After that I eat breakfast, wait about 2hrs then go do a half an hour on the bike then lift. So I guess I'm doing a combination of that.

Personally doing cardio on a full stomach makes me want to puke.

Iron Gator
 
This is from A's board and it was posted on swolecat.com too:
------------


What To Eat Before Cardio
One dilemma facing athletes is whether to eat anything before cardio, and if so, what. A recent study sheds some light on this and suggests the best option. (1).

The rationale for cardio on an empty stomach is obviously to increase fat burning. When carbs are taken in before exercise the carbs are preferentially used for fuel, sparing fat. On the other hand exercising on an empty stomach elevates cortisol levels which break down not only fats but muscle for fuel.

The other option is ingesting protein before exercise. This may spare muscle, but does it inhibit fat burning? Surprisingly, according to the study, it depends on the type of protein.

Rats were exercised under 4 different conditions. (1) Fasting. (2) Glucose meal before exercise. (3) whole milk protein before exercise (4) lactalbumin enriched whey before exercise.

At the end of the study, the glucose and milk protein fed rats gained fat mass, showing that these diets blunted the fat burning from exercise. The fasted rats lost both muscle and fat, whereas the whey fed rats lost just as much fat as the fasted rats, but gained muscle.

The moral is to burn fat and actually build muscle while doing cardio, ingest whey protein beforehand.

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Sep;283(3):E565-72

A preexercise alpha-lactalbumin-enriched whey protein meal preserves lipid oxidation and decreases adiposity in rats.

Bouthegourd JC, Roseau SM, Makarios-Lahham L, Leruyet PM, Tome DG, Even PC.

Unite Mixte de recherche de Physiologie de la Nutrition et du comportement alimentaire, Institut National de la Recherche Agronomique, Institut National Agronomique Paris-Grignon, F75231 Paris, France.

The composition of the preexercise food intake is known to affect substrate utilization during exercise and thus can affect long-term changes in body weight and composition. These parameters were measured in male rats exercised 2 h daily over 5 wk, either in the fasting state or 1 h after they ingested a meal enriched with glucose (Glc), whole milk protein (WMP), or alpha-lactalbumin-enriched whey protein (CPalphaL). Compared with fasting, the Glc meal increased glucose oxidation and decreased lipid oxidation during and after exercise. In contrast, the WMP and CPalphaL meals preserved lipid oxidation and increased protein oxidation, the CPalphaL meal increasing protein oxidation more than the WMP meal. At the end of the study, body weight was larger in the WMP-, Glc-, and CPalphaL-fed rats than in the fasted ones. This resulted from an increased fat mass in the WMP and Glc rats and to an increased lean body mass, particularly muscles, in the CPalphaL rats. We conclude that the potential of the CPalphaL meal to preserve lipid oxidation and to rapidly deliver amino acids for use during exercise improved the efficiency of exercise training to decrease adiposity.
-----

Thoughts?

-sk
 
Re: JG1

Iron Gator said:
JG1, would you post your diet. Sounds like it worked well for you!

I do cardio in the morning on an empty stomach by the way. After that I eat breakfast, wait about 2hrs then go do a half an hour on the bike then lift. So I guess I'm doing a combination of that.

Personally doing cardio on a full stomach makes me want to puke.

Iron Gator

Hey bro,

I'm on Swolegenix...you might have heard about it. SwoleCat (~SC~) does custom diets for people and the diets are based on macronutrient timing. I really can't go into specifics out of respect for ~SC~, but I will say it sort of like a TKD.......sort of. Here's his site www.swolecat.com
 
Fukkenshredded said:
Because I actually take r-ALA on an empty stomach in the a.m. along with doing cardio, all after eliminating carbs in the afternoon on the previous day.

Do you feel this really makes a difference? I've been debating about taking 100mg r-ALA 45 minutes prior to morning cardio, but wasn't sure if it was really beneficial or not.
 
Hey Juice,
that was more then generous of you to produce so many studies when you called on him first to back up his statement, and all he said is, i wrote some books. Well, i wont be buying his book to see what proof he has.

Nelson, if your going to make statements that you expect people to listen too, then post post your studies. It's clever, what you are doing, but i'm not biting.


T Bone
 
JG1--

I would recommend having a glass of juice close by for the first few times you ingest a lot of r-ALA before cardio, because things can get a bit dicey.

To answer your question...yeah, I think it works better. Maybe not significantly, but I can drop bodyfat really quickly when I need to by doing morning sprints in this fashion.
 
So...WHERE ARE THE STUDIES???

All I've seen so far is a bunch of cut and paste opinions. Just quoting someone else doesn't make it correct. I've been quoted too you know. It seems that some peoples inellects dont grasp this. They see a post, and their immediate reaction is; HE WINS!

Where are the studies? One guy contradicted himself by saying that training when energy levels are low is catabolic. Well, a lot of people's energy levels are low in the morning.

The NFPT said to consume a SMALL meal before training. (I agree)

And the last study (the only one) shwed that there was less catabolism when the rats were given whey protein before exercise.

WHERE ARE THE STUDIES PROVING YOUR POINT?!?

They all prove MINE!

Not to mention, the person with the most credibility from any of those posts is Dave Draper and he agrees with me.

Tom Venutto. Good guy. He has consulted with me and said he concurs with my concepts, so maybe this was written a while ago.

I can't make this any clearer. This is as much of a slam dunk as JA's loss of gains after using all that Clomid he said works so well. I can't spell it out any more than this people. If you can't see the facts before your eyes, I can't help you.
 
Fukkenshredded said:
JG1--

I would recommend having a glass of juice close by for the first few times you ingest a lot of r-ALA before cardio, because things can get a bit dicey.

To answer your question...yeah, I think it works better. Maybe not significantly, but I can drop bodyfat really quickly when I need to by doing morning sprints in this fashion.

Hey man,

What do you consume post cardio?

Thanks. :)

Also what do you think about the post from A?

-sk
 
Fukkenshredded said:
JG1--

I would recommend having a glass of juice close by for the first few times you ingest a lot of r-ALA before cardio, because things can get a bit dicey.

To answer your question...yeah, I think it works better. Maybe not significantly, but I can drop bodyfat really quickly when I need to by doing morning sprints in this fashion.

Thanks bro, I'm gonna start using 100mg r-ALA 30-45 minutes prior to my AM cardio, and another 100mg r-ALA 30-45 minutes prior to my PM cardio on non-training days. I go carbless on these days, but I'll give it a shot and see what happens.
 
Post cardio I hit a Metrx RTD right away, usually even before the sauna.

Nelson, take another peek at poantrex's citations. Those are actual studies, sir.

As far as Dave Draper being the most credible source here on this issue...how do you figure that? Is he leaner than say, me?

If so, what about some of the guys here who look as good as he ever has...are you suggesting that he is the most credible source because he is a pro bodybuilder, or because he has conducted the most relevant research?

Again, I am left wondering why you are adhering to this the way you are. It almost seems as if you simply want to be in the minority on everything, as if that somehow qualifies you as a forward thinker.

I can certainly appreciate the fact that you do have some good knowledge in the arena of bodybuilding. That's why this is so bewildering to me. It just doesn't make since to call something wrongly without any empirical data. You calim these studies are other people's opinions. Well, what do you think scientific theories ARE? they are just that, until they are verified by empirical data. Now, we have done all we can to present both literature and experience based data...you have yet to propose a counter argument other than the claims that you have been published. Even if we are to accept that as validation (it isn't), the fact is, as I mentioned, that none of us can find your studies, your research, your science, on this issue. We all have found your opinion, but where are your documentations? What EXACTLY did you do to come about this knowledge that you are convinced that you have?

Don't pin it all on "Dave Draper agrees with me". So what. If he does, he is mistaken as well. Help us out here, Nelson...I am not trying to argue or prove myself superior, I am trying to get you to PRESENT SOME ACTUAL DATA, so that we may consider that data and rethink our postition.

Well, at least that is what I will do. My intyerest lies in learning, not in just being right about everything.

Go back and answer the questions I presented to you and correlate your answers with your logic about cardio. I'm just curious is all, like I said. the questions are not difficult, and they are not trick questions, nor are they an attempt to ridicule. I just cannot fathom reconciling those issues with your position, so I am considering the possibility that my knowledge is inadequate, and I am asking you respectfully to augment my learning.

You know, if you look on this board hard enough you will find examples of me posting retractions and admissions of error. I can admit when I am wrong, but I need to see it first. Why don't you try addressing some of us other than JA and we can have intelligent dialogue about it, even if we respectfully disagree on a given issue.

You responded to me once by saying you've tried it, along with dozens of clients, and documented the findings.

Please be so kind as to share them, if for no other reason than to help educate me in this area.

Thanks in advance.
 
Last edited:
Fukkenshredded said:
Post cardio I hit a Metrx RTD right away, usually even before the sauna.

Nelson, take another peek at poantrex's citations. Those are actual studies, sir.
.....................................



FS: As much as I respect you contribution here, you're WAY off on this one.But do e a favor, repost the syudy in question. I dont feel like going through every post. Nowhere did I see that two groups of people trained and ate in a similar manner but one group did morning cardio on an empty stomach and lost more fat.



............................................
As far as Dave Draper being the most credible source here on this issue...how do you figure that? Is he leaner than say, me?
............................................


At age 60, the dude looks pretty fucking awesome, bro. Besides, is the person who'e the leanest the one who's right about this? I thought we were discussing science?
Come on, you know better than to make a statement like that.


............................................




If so, what about some of the guys here who look as good as he ever has...are you suggesting that he is the most credible source because he is a pro bodybuilder, or because he has conducted the most relevant research?


............................................


No, but he's been around longer and accomplished more than anyone here. That means something.




............................................


Again, I am left wondering why you are adhering to this the way you are. It almost seems as if you simply want to be in the minority on everything, as if that somehow qualifies you as a forward thinker.


...........................................



That's a projection on your part, and an erroneous one.


............................................


I can certainly appreciate the fact that you do have some good knowledge in the arena of bodybuilding. That's why this is so bewildering to me. It just doesn't make since to call something wrongly without any empirical data. You calim these studies are other people's opinions. Well, what do you think scientific theories ARE? they are just that, until they are verified by empirical data. Now, we have done all we can to present both literature and experience based data...you have yet to propose a counter argument other than the claims that you have been published. Even if we are to accept that as validation (it isn't), the fact is, as I mentioned, that none of us can find your studies, your research, your science, on this issue. We all have found your opinion, but where are your documentations?

............................................


I devote a 14 page chapter to this in my first book. I'm not going to reprint it here, but be that as it may, everyone was so sure that I was wrong and this and had all this scientific study to back it up. Well...SHOW ME THE STUDIES!!!



............................................



What EXACTLY did you do to come about this knowledge that you are convinced that you have?



............................................



It's not I just decided to contradict something. I learned all the accepted information. But I questioned it too. And after 30 years I realized what wa true and what wasn't. And now I spend my time sharing that information. Somethimes it's appreciated. Sometimes peole get belligerent. For them, it's easier to just believe the world is flat and burn the witch hat says otherwise. That's okay. I'd rather have the support of intelligent people than close minded fools.


............................................


Don't pin it all on "Dave Draper agrees with me".

............................................


I never said that. I didn't even know his opinion on this.



............................................


So what. If he does, he is mistaken as well. Help us out here, Nelson...I am not trying to argue or prove myself superior, I am trying to get you to PRESENT SOME ACTUAL DATA, so that we may consider that data and rethink our postition.


............................................


There's plenty of actual data starting with the fat that the body still has available carbs present even when glycogen levels are low so the whole theory is moronic.


............................................


Well, at least that is what I will do. My intyerest lies in learning, not in just being right about everything.


............................................

Me too.


............................................

Go back and answer the questions I presented to you and correlate your answers with your logic about cardio. I'm just curious is all, like I said. the questions are not difficult, and they are not trick questions, nor are they an attempt to ridicule. I just cannot fathom reconciling those issues with your position, so I am considering the possibility that my knowledge is inadequate, and I am asking you respectfully to augment my learning.

You know, if you look on this board hard enough you will find examples of me posting retractions and admissions of error. I can admit when I am wrong, but I need to see it first. Why don't you try addressing some of us other than JA and we can have intelligent dialogue about it, even if we respectfully disagree on a given issue.

............................................



Well, an intelligent dialouge between two people is impossible if one of them is just out to be mindlessly insulting . I can't believe you think this kid is even worth addressing. You can't homestly tell me that I've ever followed anyone around jst to call them names, can you? That guy is an embarassment. No. Sorry. He's appologized to me and retracted his staements four times now. Whichever way the wind the blows, that's his stance. I will not dignify his imputence with a response. He's already gotten more attenton than he deserves.


............................................



You responded to me once by saying you've tried it, along with dozens of clients, and documented the findings.

Please be so kind as to share them, if for no other reason than to help educate me in this area.

Thanks in advance.



I believe I just did.
 
Argh, nelson you really ignored some of the important stuff in FS's post and even misinterpreted some of it.

:(

-sk
 
Fukkenshredded said:
Hmmm.

Well, several relevant studies have now been posted, and there are dozens of other studies that verify this same thing. Morning cardio on an empty stomach is more effective for fatloss than the same regimen performed in the evening on a full stomach.

Not only is the logic at once obvious, but now you have the 'scientific data' you requested.

Nelson, I certainly do not mean to be confrontational here, but I am a bit confused at your commitment to sophistry. It is a mystery why someone with your intellect and experience would adhere so stringently to an idea that not only defies logic, but has been disproven.

Especially when I consider your claims of having studied this very issue in a regimented, deliberate fashion and documented the results 'for dozens of people'.

Surely if that were the case you would have published the specific routines and results, yes? Isn't that research worth publishing in detail? I must admit that I cannot find very many publications of yours, and the one's that I have examined have not included the specifics of this study (or studies) that you conducted.

I would expect to find in your study a detailed synopsis of diet, training routine, and daily bodyweight/composition records, and that the diet and training regimen would be identicle for both groups with the exception of the time of day and state of nutritional intake for the control group in relation to when the cardio was performed.

I would expect to see identicle blood glucose levels for both groups if it is in fact true that the impact of the exercise was identicle for both groups.

Or, I would expect to see some data supporting the notion that blood glucose levels have nothing to do with energy expenditure.

In fact, I am already curios as to how you would answer these questions:

Where does the body draw from for aerobic exertion if blood glucose is below, say 40?

Does the body react identically to anaerobic exercise and aerobic exercise?

Will the body completely deplete blood glucose while exercising?

What causes the body to burn glucose preferentially, and what is the alternative source of energy?

What causes a body to burn protien instead of fat, and vice versa?

I think that by answering these questions you can help me understand the reasoning behind your position, and that way I can have some actual information to consider instead of an opinion.

Is that fair enough?

Again, I am not trying to sound arrogant or condescending here, because I am open to the possibility that I and many others are mistaken about this, and that our findings are attributable to something other than what we attribute them to, in which case I am eager to discover what that might be. It's just that I am one of few who actually get down to sub-6% levels of fat, and ALL of the people I know that achieve this believe the way that I do, and coupled with my own study (yes I documented my own results thoroughly and in an accurate way) on myself, you have the reasons why I subscribe to this way of thinking.

In other words, its not only obvious, but I've proven it to myself.

Would you be willing to help me understand the errors in my logic?

Nelson, I would really like to hear your answers on some of the questions here. If you don't mind ...

-sk
 
JG1 said:


Thanks bro, I'm gonna start using 100mg r-ALA 30-45 minutes prior to my AM cardio, and another 100mg r-ALA 30-45 minutes prior to my PM cardio on non-training days. I go carbless on these days, but I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

dude u might die if u take R-ALA on non carb day and do cardio!
do not play with your life.
 
sk* said:


Nelson, I would really like to hear your answers on some of the questions here. If you don't mind ...

-sk

Didn't I just do that? What, specifically, did I miss?

And BTW: Still waiting for those studies.

Why is it everyone is interestied in studies with mme but everyone else is excluded from having to provide them? Sure, THEN it's all about empirical evidence and science doesn't matter much. Where's all the concrete evidence that gives people the right to flat out disagree with me without even considering what I say and why I said it.

This is exausting. I haven't got much time left. Somebody make a point.
 
Man screw the studies and the other stuff, just please address this portion:

Fukkenshredded said:
Where does the body draw from for aerobic exertion if blood glucose is below, say 40?

Does the body react identically to anaerobic exercise and aerobic exercise?

Will the body completely deplete blood glucose while exercising?

What causes the body to burn glucose preferentially, and what is the alternative source of energy?

What causes a body to burn protien instead of fat, and vice versa?

-sk
 
sk* said:
Man screw the studies and the other stuff, just please address this portion:



-sk

Okay.

1...Depends on the activity. 40 is pretty low, but there will still be available carbs on which to draw. If the activity requires immediate energy it will derive it from the the quickest energy sourse, that being the nutrient that requires the least amount of energy to burn. Carbs have 4 cals per gram but fat has 9. Wait a minute, there's still another 4 cal energy source available. I'll let you figure out what that is.



2...It sure can. All the body knows is stress. You can raise HR lifting weights and not raise it much running. Depends on a lot of things. Remember, serobics is just a made up word. It did not exist in any medical text until the 70's.


3...Almost impossible. If you fasted for days and just kept going,eventually, yeah. Doesn't sound like a good idea.


4...Again, the need to expend energy. Alternate sources of energy are fat and protein. (muscle) Muscle comes first unless the activity is very slovenly.


5...Lack of available carbs. Intramuscular fat isn't a great energy source, as anyone who has ever tried to lose it will tell you. The best way to lose more fat is through having more muscle, therby having a more metabolically active system. Then, you burn fat all day for normal activities as long as you aren't in a calorie surplus.



Okay?
 
Nelson: "Not to mention, the person with the most credibility from any of those posts is Dave Draper and he agrees with me.

FS: "Don't pin it all on "Dave Draper agrees with me".

Nelson: "I never said that. I didn't even know his opinion on this."

wtf? I'm so done with this thread...


T Bone
 
I didn't know it prior to seeing it posted 5 minutes earlier, therefore it wasn't what I was basing my opinion on. Understand?
 
Never mind any of that, Nelson. I apologize for my tone in that particular post, it's just that I forget that the internet does not accurately reflect all of the nuances in regular vocal conversation.

Understand right here that I respect your contributions and your willingness to teach what you have learned.

Now, about that study you wanted...

Influence of fasting on carbohydrate and fat metabolism during rest and exercise in men
J. J. Knapik, C. N. Meredith, B. H. Jones, L. Suek, V. R. Young and W. J. Evans
US Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine, Natick, Massachusetts 01760.

Metabolic effects of an overnight fast (postabsorptive state, PA) or a 3.5-day fast (fasted state, F) were compared in eight healthy young men at rest and during exercise to exhaustion at 45% maximum O2 uptake. Glucose rate of appearance (Ra) and disappearance (Rd) were calculated from plasma glucose enrichment during a primed, continuous infusion of [6,6-2H]glucose. Serum substrates and insulin levels were measured and glycogen content of the vastus lateralis was determined in biopsies taken before and after exercise. At rest, whole-body glucose flux (determined by the deuterated tracer) and carbohydrate oxidation (determined from respiratory exchange ratio) were lower in F than PA, but muscle glycogen levels were similar. During exercise, glucose flux, whole-body carbohydrate oxidation, and the rate of muscle glycogen utilization were significantly lower during the fast. In the PA state, glucose Ra and Rd increased together throughout exercise. However, in the F state Ra exceeded Rd during the 1st h of exercise, causing an increase in plasma glucose to levels similar to those of the PA state. The increase in glucose flux was markedly less throughout F exercise. Lower carbohydrate utilization in the F state was accompanied by higher circulating fatty acids and ketone bodies, lower plasma insulin levels, and the maintenance of physical performance reflected by similar time to exhaustion.


Take a look at the last sentence of the abstract and tell me how you interpret that. When we reach an agreement there, I will post another study that picks up where this one left off, but let's take this one step at a time for now.
 
This says that after a THREE TO FIVE DAY FAST, the body started burning fatty acids and ketones. Of course. You need to fast for five days and train to exaustion before using up all the glucse in your body, at which point you'll you'll begin burning fat along with muscle. This is what I've been saying all along. Thanks for the post FS. Now, just show to this to anyone who wants to agrue with me about this.
 
Ok, I thought you might go there. The reason the study is relevant is because we induce a similar state with the use of r-ALA. But nevermind, let's just cut to the more basic and go from there...how about:

Metabolic responses to exercise after fasting
G. L. Dohm, R. T. Beeker, R. G. Israel and E. B. Tapscott


Fasting before exercise increases fat utilization and lowers the rate of muscle glycogen depletion. Since a 24-h fast also depletes liver glycogen, we were interested in blood glucose homeostasis during exercise after fasting. An experiment was conducted with human subjects to determine the effect of fasting on blood metabolite concentrations during exercise. Nine male subjects ran (70% maximum O2 consumption) two counterbalanced trials, once fed and once after a 23-h fast. Plasma glucose was elevated by exercise in the fasted trial but there was no difference between fed and fasted during exercise. Lactate was significantly higher (P less than 0.05) in fasted than fed throughout the exercise bout. Fat mobilization and utilization appeared to be greater in the fasted trial as evidenced by higher plasma concentrations of free fatty acids, glycerol, and beta-hydroxybutyrate as well as lower respiratory exchange ratio in the fasted trial during the first 30 min of exercise. These results demonstrate that in humans blood glucose concentration is maintained at normal levels during exercise after fasting despite the depletion of liver glycogen. Homeostasis is probably maintained as a result of increased gluconeogenesis and decreased utilization of glucose in the muscle as a result of lowered pyruvate dehydrogenase activity.

Any reason this does not apply? Also, you might want to think about the slowed rate of muscle glycogen depletion before you rant too much about muscle wasting. THINK about it.

Incidentally, your comment about burning muscle can readily be countered with the simple observation that we are generally on steroids when we engage in this type of cardio. More on anticatabolic strategies later...let's just get where we agree on this first issue...
 
Last edited:
Why bother. Its obvious that he's so damn stubborn that he'll refuse to acknowledge that we're correct - even in the face is so much evidence. I'm a manager and I run into employees like this every once in a while - they can justify something no matter what they do wrong and refuse to acknowledge being incorrect. Needless to say these types don't last very long.
 
Poantrex...

This effort is for the benefit of every member, including Nelson. Nelson is a good thinker when he applies himself, and I have in fact learned a lot from him. There are not too many issues that I am educated on, but you could say I have a small bit of knowledge in this particular arena, perhaps even enough to offer some instruction...

The rarity of me having enough knowledge to post can be witnessed by the low number of posts that I have in relation to my time here.

I am not arguing with Nelson, I am offering an alternative point of view.

The correct one, as it turns out in this case, but you surely can see that this entire thread is instructive in many ways, on many levels, and is an overall benefit to all of us, including me.

See, if Nelson is able to prove me wrong, I learn. If not, he learns. Its a win win situation, not a flaming contest. I don't get mixed up in those. I ignore insults, generally (or try to) and only respond with relevant information or a quick opinion.

True, you did put up some studies, but I don't think Nelson ever read through your post.

Not to mention that a big part of this community still seems to be puzzled by this question, so we can just put it to rest with this course of dialogue.

I am actually flattered that Nelson would engage me in a debate...it takes time and effort to do so with anyone, and I genuinely appreciate his input.

Nelson, when you see this post be sure to look up #94 above.
 
Last edited:
poantrex said:
Why bother. Its obvious that he's so damn stubborn that he'll refuse to acknowledge that we're correct - even in the face is so much evidence. I'm a manager and I run into employees like this every once in a while - they can justify something no matter what they do wrong and refuse to acknowledge being incorrect. Needless to say these types don't last very long.


It's true. I'm very stubborn when it comes to logic. I refuse to ignore it. I suppose I could go along with crowd or the hero of the day, but I'd rather know the truth and be disliked. (BTW: Good to see I'm being compared to the employees at the Walmart.)

So you're saying I won't last long in this business?

Okay FS: There are couple of things about this thread that aren't jiving. Glucose was elevated in one group during exercise (?) but was not elevated in either group during exercise. (???) Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe I'm tired. It also states that the same group was tested--first fed, then fasted -- and after the second session,there was more fat loss than after the first. Well, after two exercise sessions and a severe drop in caloric intake, there's bound to be SOME fat loss. That doesn't really support the argument very well though. And yes, some of those results suggest muscle wasting and the fact that peole use steroids is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

This study also states that glycogen is still present, even after a long fast and doing exercise, which is what I've been saying all along. At any rate, this test was conducted after a 24 hour fast, which has nothing to do with cardio first thing in the morning before breakfast or the long term effects of continuing this practice so it's a moot point.
 
Nelson Montana said:
It's true. I'm very stubborn when it comes to logic. I refuse to ignore it. I suppose I could go along with crowd or the hero of the day, but I'd rather know the truth and be disliked. (BTW: Good to see I'm being compared to the employees at the Walmart.)

So you're saying I won't last long in this business?

Stubborn??? What a understatement!! Logic?? What a joke! Your reasoning on things defies all logic. The conclusions you come up with consistently lack evidence or merit. When presented with concrete evidence to the contrary you downplay and discredit the source of the information. Once again you are made to look like AN ASS not only by me and also by FS and poantrex who actually provided the scientific data you requested proving your position on the ineffectiveness of cardio on an empty stomach dead wrong. You've once again proven to the members of this board what a think-headed moron you are. One person on this thread said he reconsidered buying your book because of this. Nothing could make me happier to hear that. If this results in just one person reconsidering the purchase of your book it was worth my time. Mission accomplished!

T Bone said:
Hey Juice,
that was more then generous of you to produce so many studies when you called on him first to back up his statement, and all he said is, i wrote some books. Well, i wont be buying his book to see what proof he has.

Nelson, if your going to make statements that you expect people to listen too, then post post your studies. It's clever, what you are doing, but i'm not biting.
T Bone
 
Last edited:
Nelson--

I'm prepared to accept the notion that you may be tired, because yes, you are missing the point of the two studies I posted. Perhaps you have only read the abstracts...I suggest looking at the actual studies when you are fresh.

In a nutshell, what is being documented is the fact that fasting does impact fat mobilization during exercise and after exercise, even though blood glucose levels are not impacted in a corresponding way.

Now I see that you have budged just a tad in spite of your earlier postition...the statement that 'after two cardio sessions and severe caloric drop, there is bound to be SOME fatloss'...yes, there is, and that term SOME can be proven, specifically, to be MORE than with the same exercise without the fasting.

That is, in fact, the whole point of the first study posted--to show that the rate of fatloss is indeed directly proportional to the degree of fasting prior to exercise--and the point of the second study is to show that there is not really a correspondence between plasma glucose levels DURING exercise and fatloss--(with regard specifically to fasting)--which was the assertion that you initially challenged as being incorrect (so in that regard you were right), but as I stated early on, the results are undeniable even if the presented logic at that point was flawed.

Now why is there a homeostasis of glucose? Look again at what was found--A HIGHER CONCENTRATION OF FAT METABOLITES DURING EXERCISE IN THE FASTED GROUP--what is difficult to understand about that? And how can we say that it is aresult of glucose levels being altered when the entire study JUST PROVED THAT THEY ARE UNCHANGED DURING EXERCISE???

What could that homeostasis mean? You assert that it is evidence of muscle wasting? Are you sure that you want to make that assertion here on this board for all to see? Read it again--DECREASED UTILIZATION OF GLUCOSE IN THE MUSCLE--

Is that not evidence specifically contrary to your theory that in a fasted state muscle wasting will occur during exercise?

I suggest you reread your own words before responding to this post.

As far as steroid use being completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, well, you have me there. Strictly speaking we are not pursuing the answer to this question for a person using steroids, but in light of what I have just reiterated and clarified for you, does it not stand to reason that if one is taking steroids, one can safely engage in exercise on an empty stomach and not increase the risk of muscle loss?

Indeed, the evidence actually implies that there exists a type of muscle preserving mechanism in the event of exercise after fasting.

Maybe Mother Nature had her head on straight when she contemplated the possibility of a hunter having to chase down a meal when he was hungry...

Is that even remotely possible?

You actually said to this board that the studies posted do not support my assertions very well. OK, would you please interpret the studies in a way that supports your theory?

Or, could you now post your studies backing your claims?

Really, sir...I am starting to believe that you are simply interested in being proven right rather than learning or contributing here. After all, you have disagreed with me several times now, but have not logically supported your side of this issue. We don't even have any of your references to discuss, because you have so far contributed none.

Incidentally, the answers you posted to my questions about glucose are not only incomplete, but they are also largely incorrect.

I will help out here for the board.

1. Almost right, but your propostion that the body will burn from the source requiring the least amount of energy is not always true. Remember, fat is stored SPECIFICALLY FOR BURNING IN AN EMERGENCY STATE. The caloric release from fat is greater than that of muscle, so if the body chooses muscle over fat it more quickly depletes itself and therefore dies sooner.

You see the logic here? SURVIVAL is the central issue.

2.You gave an ambiguous reply that is not only noncommital, but noninformative as well. The answer is--NO. The body does NOT react identically to aerobic vs anaerobic exercise. The difference is in what is burned, and why, specifically how much oxygen, how much sugar, and from where they are being drawn. Those answers are determined in part by--guess what?--WHETHER OR NOT THE BODY HAS RECENTLY BEEN FED, and how much sugar there is for instant conversion to energy.

3. Almost impossible is correct. But look closely at your answer. You suggest that if one fasts for days then such and such could happen. How then can you assert that fasting has no impact on fat metabolism? You can only assert that a short fast has no significant impact, a point which can be debated, but to suggest that fasting is completely irrelevant (as suggested by your first response in this thread wherein you say it is biologically impossible to burn more fat in a fasted state) does not correlate to this answer. So it seems that you do not fully understand your own postition on this issue.

4. Absolutely dead wrong. True, the alternate sources of energy are fat and muscle, but again, the biological imperative of survival compels the body to choose fat FIRST when confronted with the choice of that or muscle. Again, examine my simple empirical proof (notwithstanding the evidence I have presented since)...muscle yields 600 calories of energy per pound burned. Fat yields 3500. Now, I have burned over 5000 calories in the gym MANY times, and in a fasted state, and for consecutive days. Why then does my bodyweight not drop according to the depletion of muscle? Even if they were both burned at the same rate (they are not, muscle is not burned at any significant rate at all in this scenario), I would still see a drop in bodyweight nearly triple what I actually see.

Explain this.

5.Wrong again. The answer is: absence of carbs AND fat. Again--the BODY BURNS MUSCLE LAST (during exercise in a fasted state)if there is any excess fat. This is why fat is stored in the first place--to be burned if needed in the absence of food.

Now look again at your own answer here. You state that the best way to burn fat is to have more muscle--true enough. Why? More biologically active, hence more heat. Higher metabolism is not entirely accurate, but it will suffice here. Anyway, how can you reconcile this truth with the notion that the body will burn muscle first? If that were the case, more muscle would simply mean the body would wait even LONGER to burn fat, because it would simply burn up that extra muscle. But we just said that more muscle burns off extra fat...

You see the conundrum here? Again, your own position is self-annihilating, and can be disregarded because it is not demonstrably possible in any given scenario, since it at once suggests that muscle is its own fuel and simultaneously its own preservation.

Nelson, my friend, it is time to rethink your postition on this issue. Even if you choose to argue the point on the board, you now know that I am in fact correct, or at least I can make a compelling case--one that you have yet to refute with any data or sound logic.

I notice that you like to utilize the term 'logic' in your posts, and I do believe that you are a student of logic (as am I), and it is because of this belief that I am very interested in your detailed reply to my points, one by one, with supporting documentation.

To those who are reading this ongoing dialogue, may I suggest that it is counterproductive to insult Mr. Montana, as it is possibly a result of these insults that leads him to so strongly cling to his assertions. There is no shame in being mistaken, and if I am mistaken here (I may well be), then please have the courtesy to point out to me where my errors are, with specificity, so that I may correct my thinking and learn, and therefore grow.
 
Last edited:
u do cardio on empty stomach in starvation mode.
the body in starvation mode will burn muscle but not fat.

nelson is right here!
 
Top Bottom