final word on ALA ...

[XzRzX]

sorry ... kinda posted this in the Diet forum ...

so what brand of ALA is really the best all around ( effectivity price etc. ) ? ... im thinking of either buying Jarrows, Nutriteam ALA (Nature's Purest) or the r-ALA from anabolicfitness ...

if i would take the r-ala ... how much do i take per meal if i usually take around 900-1200 mg per meal of ALA ( based on the ALA i bought from Natures Purest, Nutriteam )

thanks !

 

[SirWanksalot]

IMO, why one should avoid R-ALA at this time
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=1548273#post1548273

This the best value going on the freshest ALA
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=139604

 

[macrophage69alpha]

problems with your "solution".. though it may appeal to some.. as it does cost less...

a. you have to buy a kilo- 300 days worth at high end dosages

a1. higher intial cost.

b. you have to cap your self...ie time

b1. most people can cap about 100 caps an hour.. this is a cost.. but will depend on how much time is worth..

c. you have to buy caps-- cost about 45$-60$ for 3000

obviously R-ala is intended for those that want to get the best results with minimal dosage (perhaps avoiding potential sides)..

S-ala has been shown to increase insulin production
S-ala has been shown to counteract R-ala is SOME tissues


S-ala MAY.. stress may.. decrease life expectancy (in rats. )
R-ala, on the other hand, has been shown to increase it(in rats)

those are just some of the reasons..

though if monetary cost alone is the issue.. it is a good idea for those with extra time and patience for capping and either sharing caps or using high amounts..


note- high ala dosages (which are necessary with the racemic to get the same results as the R) deplete BIOTIN.. so be sure to add some to diet.. it may deplete others.. but cannot say for sure.

 

[SirWanksalot]

Well folks, be aware that if you plan the R-ALA at a gram a day, then you best order three bottles or $60 for a months supply, and don't forget the shipping, lets round it to $65 order for 30 days.

I pettiion if someone is willing to shell out $65 per month on R-ala, then they should consider a one time ALA purchase for $190 plus $5 shipping, which covers about 300 days.

Some folks use the loose ALA powder in orange juice, others use it with there carb up post work out drink and avoid capping all together.

IMO - I would say it appeals to those looking for the best deal.

R-ALA will come down in price once competitors see the pie and want their slice. Once this happens then I will reconsider

Sirwanksalot

 

[macrophage69alpha]

R-ALA will come down in price once competitors see the pie and want their slice.

dont think so.. r-ALA costs AT LEAST 3 times what racemic does.. and that will NOT be coming down anytime soon.. it is unlikely that most companies would even consider carrying it.. the investment cost is quite high for a small return.. but there may be some companies that do as the benefits and differences become clear to the public at large and the price does come down.. but that will not be anytime soon..

most companies will juist carry ALA as few know the difference.. though it is a considerable one

 

[macrophage69alpha]

btw- if the few initial experiences are indicative of the "public" .. r-ala can be taken on an empty stomach without heartburn.. (though how true that is for others is unclear as of yet)

 

[macrophage69alpha]

on the whole.. for those that want the absolute cheapest(dollar wise).. your reccomendation is quite good..

but for those that want the best .. and what is clinically proven .. R-ala

ie.. for those with diabetes
ie.. for those using for life extension
ie. for DNP users wishing to decrease retinal oxidation..

for these the racemic is inferior.. even at the higher dosages

though it will take more users to see how the R-ala stacks up against the racemic in the glucose disposal.. its better.. the question is "how much?"

 

[SirWanksalot]

dont think so.. r-ALA costs AT LEAST 3 times what racemic does.. and that will NOT be coming down anytime soon.. it is unlikely that most companies would even consider carrying it..

Thanks for the info my friend, since as you state R-ALA costs "3 times" what common ala does, then simple math tells me that price point should be three times what I paid or $190 (common ala X 3 = $570 (R-ALA) for a bulk buy at a discount dealer.

IMO - Theres enough room between $1,995 and $570 (using Mac's 3X formula) for lots of "price lowering" by numerous competitors.....

Again this is only my opinion on the matter............

Sirwanksalot

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Thanks for the info my friend, since as you state R-ALA costs "3 times" what common ala does, then simple math tells me that price point should be three times what I paid or $190 (common ala X 3 = $570 (R-ALA) for a bulk buy at a discount dealer.

IMO - Theres enough room between $1,995 and $570 (using Mac's 3X formula) for lots of "price lowering" by numerous competitors.....

Again this is only my opinion on the matter............

Sirwanksalot

"AT LEAST 3" TIMES.. and that is with a 10kg purchase.. and more than three times the price you have indicated.. and have you had their product indepently tested?? because at that price.. well.. though it could just be a good deal.

btw- you are not counting costs of caps, encapsulation, labeling, bottles, sealing, etc. etc.

yes.. if you want to buy KG's from the manufacturer it is cheaper.. like it is for everything


btw- if you are not encapulating it.. it will degrade MUCH, MUCH faster.. every time you open the container you expose it to fresh air.. with a KG that is at least 1000-2000 or more exposures to "fresh" air with "fresh" oxidents.. essentially the same as leaving the container open.. so probably not a good idea

if you decide to go this route cap it... and try to cap in in as few sessions as possible

 

[u4ik_RAGE]

Hmmm... the R-ALA is certainly a tempting deal, but I think I will continue purchasing 36 grams in caps for $15.
It works great for me and helped me get into ketosis really quickly and works great on my refeeds.

I was going to throw a product called Yohimburn into the mix because I had heard so much much feedback on this site. Well, I did a little more research and I think I will try Lipoderm-Y, instead.

 

[Ulter]

Wanker your math and your reasoning are both WAY off.
First you say. "Well folks, be aware that if you plan the R-ALA at a gram a day, then you best order three bottles or $60 for a months supply, and don't forget the shipping, lets round it to $65 order for 30 days. "
You’re missing one of the biggest advantage of using r-ALA. YOU DON'T NEED THAT MUCH of the r-ALA. You only need to use 300mg to get the same results you would with 1000mg of the Racemic. Which means your monthly cost is $20 not $65.
Where do you get this $570 price that you think it costs? Yes r-ALA costs 3 times as much AT THE RETAIL LEVEL you moron the wholesale level is even higher, but again you miss the point. You are trying to compare buying in bulk from a discount supplier with buying a bottle. There are those who save money brewing their own beer, making their own bread and changing their own oil. But most of us don't chose to spend our time that way. If you do that's your business but you have no clue what it costs to produce and sell a product to the public and that’s very evident by your posts.
You think companies can sell something and still pay credit card fees, buy labels, bottles and lab tests AND BUY PRODUCT LIABILITY INSURANCE, and run a website all for free. I don't see any of those costs in your figures. Why? You are very uninformed.
If you want to buy r-ALA in 10 kilo buckets and make your own caps, have fun.

u4ik
What it really shows is that you've done no research. But I think you should do just that. Then if you buy milk thistle to protect your liver you will have purchased the 3 most useless products being sold.

 

[u4ik_RAGE]

u4ik
What it really shows is that you've done no research. But I think you should do just that. Then if you buy milk thistle to protect your liver you will have purchased the 3 most useless products being sold.

Nice retort. Why would I buy milk thistle when I take plenty of ALA. It would be like buying HMB to stop muscle catobolism, when I already take plenty of l-glutamine.

You're right on the research. I will read more on Lipoderm-Y and Yohimburn on this very site. After that I will research 1-AD on Testosterone.net.

 

[Ulter]

"Nice retort. Why would I buy milk thistle when I take plenty of ALA. It would be like buying HMB to stop muscle catobolism, when I already take plenty of l-glutamine.

You're right on the research. I will read more on Lipoderm-Y and Yohimburn on this very site. After that I will research 1-AD on Testosterone.net. "

OK bro you do that.

 

[XzRzX]

problems with your "solution".. though it may appeal to some.. as it does cost less...

a. you have to buy a kilo- 300 days worth at high end dosages

a1. higher intial cost.

b. you have to cap your self...ie time

b1. most people can cap about 100 caps an hour.. this is a cost.. but will depend on how much time is worth..

c. you have to buy caps-- cost about 45$-60$ for 3000

obviously R-ala is intended for those that want to get the best results with minimal dosage (perhaps avoiding potential sides)..

S-ala has been shown to increase insulin production
S-ala has been shown to counteract R-ala is SOME tissues


S-ala MAY.. stress may.. decrease life expectancy (in rats. )
R-ala, on the other hand, has been shown to increase it(in rats)

those are just some of the reasons..

though if monetary cost alone is the issue.. it is a good idea for those with extra time and patience for capping and either sharing caps or using high amounts..


note- high ala dosages (which are necessary with the racemic to get the same results as the R) deplete BIOTIN.. so be sure to add some to diet.. it may deplete others.. but cannot say for sure.

so where would you reccomend on buying the r-ala ? from anabolicfitness or some other brand ? is jarrows formula racemic ALA too ? ...

thanks for all the inputs guys ... at least i know both sides of the coin regarding racemic and pure r-ala ...

 

[macrophage69alpha]

at this time AF is the only one carrying r-ala..

jarrow MAY be carrying it soon... there are conflicting reports.. they put out the paper, but no product yet..

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Hmmm... the R-ALA is certainly a tempting deal, but I think I will continue purchasing 36 grams in caps for $15.
It works great for me and helped me get into ketosis really quickly and works great on my refeeds.

racemic ALA works.. there is little question.. the point is that s-ala which makes up at LEAST half (for various reasons often more) of racemic ALA has negative effects including increasing insulin production (which may make deposition of fatty acids more likely during the carb-up as well as decreasing lipolytic effect.. though of course not more than the positive.. but there is still diminishment)

other issues.. with racemic you have to use more to get the same effect depleting BIOTIN as well as possibly other vitamins (so if you do use racemic be sure to supplement EXTRA biotin.. which most multi's have little of.. for some reason??)

if you are getting it for that price.. you are likely saving about 25-30% (considering dosage comparisons).. but then again if the mixture is not equal amount of r and s... or is older (degradation) then you may be getting less...

basically R is for people that want the best, with the least potential for sides or unwanted effects..

there is little doubt that racemic will work.. though is some areas it is so inferior as to be almost counter due to its S-ala content...

 

[u4ik_RAGE]

Macro,
Most people will be okay on the much more economical racemic but I certainly feel that your product has it's place on the market. The r-ALA is certainly pricey, but at least the extra cost is mainly from production costs.

 

[u4ik_RAGE]

Oh yeah, my multi has 200% of the RDA but I'm sre that's still too low because RDA for B vitamins tend to be very low.

I usually only use ALA for refeeds and to get into initial ketosis, so I don't worry too much of the leaching of the biotin.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Oh yeah, my multi has 200% of the RDA but I'm sre that's still too low because RDA for B vitamins tend to be very low.
.

that is strange..Ast's has 20%.. eas mulit blend 56%.. both twin lab dual tabs and their multi caps have 50% of the rda.. their one a day has 100%.. as does natrols..

a couple dont have any.. including absolute nutrition.

it was something to consider and at the dosage being used by some 3g per day for extended periods.. it certainly can be an issue.. not to mention that at that dosage it seems likely to have effects on other vitamin excretion..

 

[SirWanksalot]

Wanker your math and your reasoning are both WAY off.
First you say. "Well folks, be aware that if you plan the R-ALA at a gram a day, then you best order three bottles or $60 for a months supply, and don't forget the shipping, lets round it to $65 order for 30 days. "

You seem to have selective memory. It's been mentioned say 100,000 times that lots of people take about 3 grams of common ALA (see FONZ posts) a day, so once again simple math dictates (from your own words)that in order to get the equivlelent amount of R-ALA take 1/3 the amount, or for easy math 3 grams common ala is equiv to 1 gram r-ala.

I based my cost comparison on available data, since I recently purchased a kilo of common ala at $190 and using mac's formula 3 x expensive determined that amount and concluded the $570 per kilo range. Now if one takes mac's even more than three times comment, lets add $130 and make it an even $700 a kilo for a bulk buy at a discount dealer.

So in conclusion, if one takes 1 gram daily of r-ala to compensate for the 3 grams they we're taking of common, then one will need 30 grams for 30 days, in order to get 30 grams, one must purchase three bottles.

What is somewhat surprising is that you call me wanker, yet do not dispute the math. Also Mac informed the potential price point and thus showed that there is some wiggle room. It's supply and demand pure and simple, price will remain until which time competition sees they can also profit from handling this product.

As i said much earlier, I will reconsider R-ala once price comes down. It's nothing personal and it is my opinion

SirwanksAlot

 

[SirWanksalot]

at this time AF is the only one carrying r-ala..
jarrow MAY be carrying it soon... there are conflicting reports.. they put out the paper, but no product yet..

Found this blurb on usenet (have not confirmed)

Global Vitamins (Canadian) offers 90 x 150 mg r-ala caps, PLUS the needed biotin for $26-$29 US (depending on exchange). it's almost an even draw - shipping costs could be decisive in choosing. http://www.globalvitamins.com/

Sirwanksalot

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Now if one takes mac's even more than three times comment, lets add $130 and make it an even $700 a kilo for a bulk buy at a discount dealer.

As i said much earlier, I will reconsider R-ala once price comes down. It's nothing personal and it is my opinion

SirwanksAlot

unfortunately.. for everyone.. the price is per SINGLE kilo is well over that.. even a 10kg purchase is over that.. though not a whole lot..

the price will likely not come down.. it will, in fact go up.. at least for the consumer.. though with respect to bulk kilo purchases, as it is more widely used, the price will go down..

outside the bulk cap sales that go on here.. prices on ala have changed little..

 

[SirWanksalot]

XzRzX

See what you started, it's only going to get better once Fonz enters the discussion......



Sirwanksalot

 

[macrophage69alpha]

as I said.. no one is carrying it now.. and you would not need to supplement biotin if taking reasonable doses of ala.. though eventually other companies will carry it.. or claim to..

 

[SirWanksalot]

Can we all agree that we want America to woop-ass on Germany at the worlds cup.

Game starts 7am (eastern) friday morning

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Can we all agree that we want America to woop-ass on Germany at the worlds cup.

Game starts 7am (eastern) friday morning

 

[XzRzX]

XzRzX

See what you started, it's only going to get better once Fonz enters the discussion......



Sirwanksalot

im sowwwwwwwwwwwwy



didnt mean to start something like this ...

hahaha at least there more information available to everyone here on elite !

 

[XzRzX]

at this time AF is the only one carrying r-ala..

jarrow MAY be carrying it soon... there are conflicting reports.. they put out the paper, but no product yet..

i will most probably get the r-ALA from AF soon ... just need to save up some more money so i could order more bottles to save on shipping etc.

ive already used around 3 bottles of Natures Purest from Nutriteam and ill be doing the same diet/workout combo with my new r-ALA to compare with my racemic ALA results before ...

thanks so much !

 

[Ulter]

Sir, I only want to say that....

I am sorry about the wanker thing.
I understand your point about using 3000 of one so they would use 1000 of the other buy I don't recommend people use 1000mg of the r-ALA. Even though I sell it. You simply don't need that much. It's like people megadosing Vitamin C or any other anti-oxidant. At some point there are diminishing returns.

 

[Fonz]

Sir, I only want to say that....

I am sorry about the wanker thing.
I understand your point about using 3000 of one so they would use 1000 of the other buy I don't recommend people use 1000mg of the r-ALA. Even though I sell it. You simply don't need that much. It's like people megadosing Vitamin C or any other anti-oxidant. At some point there are diminishing returns.

Normal ALA maxes out at roughly 3000mg/day for me.

If one where to graph the dosage vs return graph for
normal ALA, then the graph would be linear up to
abpout 2000mg/day and then level off from y=2000mg to
Y=3000mg.

If the relationship is linear(slope(m) =1) from 0 to 2000,
thern after that for every 100mg you add, you'd only use
an average of 33mg per 100mg consumed.

This of course is VASTLY over-simplified. The actual relationship would involve taking the derrivative of the function of the line
at different spatial points(x,y) from y=2000 to y=3000.

I'm going to start at 700mg r-ala(Equivalent to roughly
2100mg normal) and see.

Fonz

 

[XzRzX]

Normal ALA maxes out at roughly 3000mg/day for me.

If one where to graph the dosage vs return graph for
normal ALA, then the graph would be linear up to
abpout 2000mg/day and then level off from y=2000mg to
Y=3000mg.

If the relationship is linear(slope(m) =1) from 0 to 2000,
thern after that for every 100mg you add, you'd only use
an average of 33mg per 100mg consumed.

This of course is VASTLY over-simplified. The actual relationship would involve taking the derrivative of the function of the line
at different spatial points(x,y) from y=2000 to y=3000.

I'm going to start at 700mg r-ala(Equivalent to roughly
2100mg normal) and see.

Fonz

fonz ... how are you going to spread out the r-ALA in your meals ... around 100mg-200mg per meal ?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

fonz ... how are you going to spread out the r-ALA in your meals ... around 100mg-200mg per meal ?

that is probably ideal.. half life is rather short .. so frequent dosing is a good idea...

though some people may still just want to use for post work out..

 

[XzRzX]

that is probably ideal.. half life is rather short .. so frequent dosing is a good idea...

though some people may still just want to use for post work out..

thanks gotta get me some of that r-ala !

 

[tropicdude]

Just where are these dose sizes coming from? i have one of those Woodland Health Guide booklets, and states that for maintaining health doses of 40 to 50 mg a day (for maintanance) 100 mg a day for chronic conditions, and Diabetics 200 to 300mg a day. and states that AIDS patients can go over that dose but not specified.

I;m not trying to be a smart ass, I really would like to get some information on dosing, is there some kind of table/formula for example, so many mg ALA to so many grms carbs?

Also what brands on the market actually contain the r-ala? i have been taking Jarrow 300mg sustained release 3X a day. and do feel "something" when taking this amount.