Doctors vs Guns - Statistics

[PIGEON-RAT]

what about intentional gun deaths?

Can't really say doctors are more dangerous than gun owners until you take that into account.

And is your stat for guns registered firearms or does it include estimates of illegally obtained firearms. Because we all know that most firearms involved in crimes are obtained illegally.

 

[JMazz12]

I think that number of accidental deaths for doctors is high. That works out to 17% death rate for docs, lets get real for a second.

agreed.. that is definatly not right...that means that every doctor accidentally kills someone every 5.8 years...i doubt it..

 

[biteme]

Approximatley 2 million people die each year in the US. So about 6% of these deaths are caused by doctor mistakes, according to this report. That sounds about right. I just read an article that blames doctors for over 250,000 deaths per year. They save a lot more lives than they lose, but they do make too many mistakes. Huge difference in quality of doctors.

 

[vinylgroover]

what about intentional gun deaths?

Can't really say doctors are more dangerous than gun owners until you take that into account.

.

Poink conveniently left that statistic out because it makes claim frivolous and irrelevant.

 

[p0ink]

I think that number of accidental deaths for doctors is high. That works out to 17% death rate for docs, lets get real for a second.

those are the states. go look them up. i already verified it before posting.

 

[Buddy_Christ]

i think that it should only include legally obtained guns. if you want to kill someone, you don't need a gun to do it, it just makes it a bit faster and easier. the point of those numbers is that gun owners are responsible people, and it's something that needs to be shoved down the throats of people that think we shouldn't be allowed to own guns. even if the ownership of guns was made illegial, there would still be crimes/murders committed with guns. if you want something bad enough, you'll find a way to get what you want. look at illegial drugs. just because they're illegial isn't stopping people from obtaining them and using them. gun ownership by responsible citizens is not a bad thing. guns don't kill people, people kill people. until there is 100% concrete proof of a gun levitating in the air, loading itself, taking aim, and shooting someone dead, you'll never convince me that guns kill people.

doctors do save a lot of lives. sometimes mistakes happen. gotta remember it's a human doing the operation. it's not an excuse, just a reason. even the best and brightest make mistakes from time to time.

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

Approximatley 2 million people die each year in the US. So about 6% of these deaths are caused by doctor mistakes, according to this report. That sounds about right. I just read an article that blames doctors for over 250,000 deaths per year. They save a lot more lives than they lose, but they do make too many mistakes. Huge difference in quality of doctors.

if someone with CHF, CVD sees a

cardiologist
internist
pulmonologist

and is on 19 meds, and every Dr. is HIPPA compliant, information exchange is hardly ever comprehensive.

lets factor in Blue Cross wanting every dr to see pts for less than 8 minutes, and to take pts from 8am - 4pm every day.

dont forget the HMO rep that comes by with an actual treatment regimen for a pt with XX disorder, almost completely tying the physician's hands.

last but not least lets talk about compliance with orders.

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where does the problem most clearly lie?

 

[p0ink]

Poink conveniently left that statistic out because it makes claim frivolous and irrelevant.

QUICK GUN FACTS
Derived from Gun Facts by Guy Smith

FACT: The non-gun homicide rate for children in the U.S. is more than twice as high than other western countries.

Eight times as many children die from non-gun violent acts than from gun crimes.

* Kids and Guns, 2000, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention

This indicates that the problem is violence, NOT guns !!

FACT: 82% of homicides to children age 13 and under were committed without a gun.

* 1997, FBI Uniform Crime Statistics

FACT: 0.1% of all deaths for children between the ages 0-14 are from firearms, 0.6% are from motor vehicles, 5.3% are from being struck in beatings or bludgeoning, 6.0% from poisoning, and 42.6% from suffocation.

* 1997 National Center for Health Statistics National Vital Statistics Report

FACT: In 1996 there were only 21 accidental gun deaths for children under age 15. About twice as many children under 10 die from drowning in bathtubs.

* Centers for Disease Control

MYTH: 13 Children are killed each day by guns.

FACT: The statistics cited for this myth include "children" up to age 19 or age 24, depending on the source. Most violent crime is committed by males ages 16-24, so these numbers include adult gang members dying during criminal activity.

*FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1997

FACT: 18-20 year olds commit over 23% of all gun murders. None of these criminals are allowed to purchase a handgun due to their age under current law.

* U.S. Treasury and Justice Dept. Report, 1999

FACT: During the Clinton administration, federal prosecutions of gun-related crimes dropped more than 44%.

* Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse (TRAC) at Syracuse Univ. 1992-1998

FACT: There are more than 22,000 gun laws at the city, county, state, and federal level.

* BATF estimate, 1992

If gun control worked, then we should be free of crime.

FACT: There are more guns in the U.S. than cars (228,000,000 guns according to the 1998 FBI statistics and 207,754,000 automobiles according to the 1998 Federal Highway Administration registrations). Yet, you are 31 times more likely to be accidentally killed by a car than a gun according to the National Safety Council…despite cars having been registered and licensed for more than 100 years.

FACT: 90% of all violent crime in the U.S. does not involve any gun of any type.

* 1998 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms

FACT: Less than 1% of all guns will ever be used in the commission of any type of crime (much less violent crime).

*FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994

FACT: Two-thirds of the people that die each year from gunfire are criminals shooting other criminals.

* FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994

FACT: The national five day waiting period under the Brady Bill had no impact on murder or robbery, but slightly increased rape and aggravated assault rates by a few percent. For these two crime categories, the major effect was to delay law-abiding citizens from getting a gun for protection. The risks were greatest for crimes against women.

* Dr. John Lott Jr., Univ. of Chicago School of Law

FACT: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 per day.

* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.

Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminals) is shed.

FACT: Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes per day are prevented just by showing a handgun. In less than 0.9% of the time is the gun ever actually ever fired.

* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.

FACT: Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times- more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds.

* Fall 1995, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology

This means that, each year, firearms are used 65 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.

FACT: Of the 250,000,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.

* U.S. Dept. of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration,

Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities, 1979


MYTH: Concealed Carry Laws Increase Crime

FACT: When citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons:

* Murder rates drop 8%

* Rape rates fall 5%

* Aggravated assaults drop 7%

More to the point, crime is significantly higher in states without right -to -carry laws.

TYPE OF CRIME HOW MUCH HIGHER IN RESTRICTIVE STATES (states without Concealed carry laws)

Violent Crime ……………………81% higher

Murder ………………………….. 86% higher

Rape …………………………… 25% higher

Assault…………………………… 82% higher

Robbery………………………….. 105% higher

Auto Theft……………………….. 60% higher

* John Lott, David Mustard: This study involved county level crime statistics from all 3,054 counties in the U.S. from 1977 through 1992. During this time, ten states adopted right-to-carry laws. It is estimated that if all states had adopted right-to-carry laws, in 1992 the U.S. would have avoided 1,400 murders, 4,200 rapes, 12,000 robberies, 60,000 aggravated assaults- and would have saved over $5,000,000,000 in victim expenses.

FACT: 92.7% of law enforcement officials believe that citizens should be able to purchase firearms for self-defense and sporting purposes.

* 1999 Police Survey, National Assoc. of Chiefs of Police

MYTH: Police are our protection, and people don't need guns.

FACT: The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals. In Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Dept.,

444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: 'Courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.'

FACT: After Canada's 1977 gun controls prohibited handgun possession for self defense, the "breaking and entering" crime rate rose 25%, surpassing the U.S. rate.

* Pat Mayhew, Residential Burglary: A Comparison of the United States,

Canada and England and Wales (Nat'l Inst. Of Just., Wash., D.C., 1987)

MYTH: Japan has strict gun control and a less violent society.

FACT: In Japan, the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 each year by weapons other than firearms.

* United Nations data

Therefore, if all of the firearms in the U.S. could magically be eliminated, we would still have three times the murder rate of Japan.

 

[PIGEON-RAT]

here's some more p0ink

"In the four years after the U.K. banned handguns in 1996, gun crime rose by an astounding 40%. Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%."
-Dr. John R. Lott Jr.

I've read several of Lott's studies, and they're pretty fucking thorough, pretty interesting too.

The US Bureau of Justice's 1997 Firearm Use by Offenders report shows that over 80% of state inmates possessing firearms acquired them from family, friends, or an illegal source, while only 12% bought guns from a retailer or pawnshop.

 

[vinylgroover]

Poink,

I've been through this before with you.

And please don't recite John Lott. His nonsensical studies have been unravelled a number of times. The fact that the gun lobby continually quote John Lott just goes to show that the pro-gun lobby has nothing.

The other ridiculous aspect of your's and most pro-gun people's argument is this constant comparison of gun related deaths to other causes of death. It is so irrelevant to make those comparisons and i really don't understand what you andothers try to achieve by making these comparisons.

The central point is that if you reduce the presence of guns in the community, you will reduce the incidence of homicide. Thank you very much.