DEADS on back day or leg day?

[satchboogie]

question is this...

deads on back day or on leg day?

i feel that after my back routine, adding 4 sets of deads really gets my back working to the point of soreness for 2-3 days.

but the deads are also great for leg developement.
and since its not advised to do deads 2x per week, when would YOU do them and why?

thanks.

 

[Dial_tone]

at the end of my back workout....really overloads the lats that way.

 

[dgatehouse]

I actually do both. Normal deads for back at the end concentrating mainly on my back and stiff legged on leg day concentrating mainly on my hams.

 

[*MissFit*]

Damn i just wanna learn how to doa dead lift FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't be taught

 

[satchboogie]

Damn i just wanna learn how to doa dead lift FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't be taught

they look awkward..
but quite easy if you're shown by somebody who knows his shit.

on a sidenote..
this exercise if not executed with PERFECT form, can seriously fuck up your back!

thats why you should start very light...
with the bar only at first.

keep in mind some fine points:

1) have your ass sticking out at all times.. that'll keep a slight arch in the lower back and prevent back injury.

2) keep knees slightly bent

3) try the differnt variations.. like the sumo style, wide/narrow grip, and dumbells deadlifts too!

 

[*MissFit*]

this is the part i have trouble with doing it in the gym GRRRRRRR.. the few times i have asked to be taught.. haven't worked out in my favour

1) have your ass sticking out at all times.. that'll keep a slight arch in the lower back and prevent back injury.
QUOTE]

 

[stilleto]

missfit- if you want some links to good form for deads, let me know- i can show you some.

satch, i powerlift, so i don't have 'leg' day or 'back' day- i have squat days and deadlift days.
if i was going to put them with anything, i suppose i'd put them with back days- but do them FIRST... you don't want to attempt deadlifts with an already fatigued back.

 

[NorgePrecision]

I do deads at the beginning of my back workouts so my form is good. If I'm tired from rows and pullups, my deadlift is going to suffer. I need to be in prime shape to tackle deads.

 

[rbtrout]

Most say you should do deads at the beginning of the workout because they hit the CNS quite hard. I don't have a 'day' when I work a specific body part, but if I did, it would be on back day. Do deads first, some bent rowing and maybe some pull ups.
I wouldn't do deads on leg day because then you'll compromise your squats.

 

[Tweakle]

you training at bay bloor now? don't ask anyone there how to deadlift, especially one of the PT's unless you want a hand-on-the-booty spot to see if your 'core is being kept tight'

if your ever there with QT when I'm pulling I'll show you

 

[*MissFit*]

i had a two week pass it expired..
I train at adrenalin

My twin does cardio at Bay and bloor

you training at bay bloor now? don't ask anyone there how to deadlift, especially one of the PT's unless you want a hand-on-the-booty spot to see if your 'core is being kept tight'

if your ever there with QT when I'm pulling I'll show you

 

[Tweakle]

Oh yeah - in that case I might have seen her friday, I was looking at her, she was looking at me and I was trying to work out how much she looked like that 120 pixel high avi of you... It's as good an excuse to check out cute girls as any

you could train there for free pretty much anytime if your sis is there

whats adrenaline like?

 

[*MissFit*]

it's a meat head gym at dufferin and lawrence

I like it equiptment works.. and it's 24hrs..
http://www.adrenalinfitness.com/index.php

i like it...

She looks just like me face wise.. but shes skinny... no muscle at all and all she does is cardio for an hour and half a day.. freakin freak she is

Oh yeah - in that case I might have seen her friday, I was looking at her, she was looking at me and I was trying to work out how much she looked like that 120 pixel high avi of you... It's as good an excuse to check out cute girls as any

you could train there for free pretty much anytime if your sis is there

whats adrenaline like?

 

[Tweakle]

thanks, I've been looking for a good 24hr place for ever! 365 by the airport is great if you've ever been there but its way too far out of town for me.

I'll check it out tomorrow night

 

[*MissFit*]

Yah been to 365...
I went there a lot of the summer....

Adrenalin has same type of equiptment... a lot more cardio.. same amount of free weights and same type of machines.

My ex took me to 365 and i brought him to adrenalin a few time.. he didnt seem to mind it.. it's comparable

thanks, I've been looking for a good 24hr place for ever! 365 by the airport is great if you've ever been there but its way too far out of town for me.

I'll check it out tomorrow night

 

[gjohnson5]

at the end of my back workout....really overloads the lats that way.

I need to K hit you twice because legs are the most intense day in the gym for me.

it seems masochistic to
1. squats
2. leg presses
3. stiff legs
4. curls and extensions
5. and then try to have a good day deadlifting

 

[stilleto]

dangerous dangerous dangerous to do them last guys.

your form has to be GOOD. if you're week, you'll tend to round your back, and set yourself up for a really good injury.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

dangerous dangerous dangerous to do them last guys.

your form has to be GOOD. if you're week, you'll tend to round your back, and set yourself up for a really good injury.

bingo if youre doing deads last that means you are using a sgnificanlty lower weight than what you are capable of using..

If that is true then you are MISSING the whole point of deadlifts to begin with
personally i dont feel deads in my legs at all and i can pull jsut as much evenif i squatted heavy 2 days before pulling- to me they re not a leg movement at all but everyone pulls differently..at some point though your legs will stop bearing the grunt of the work and it will fall to the posterior inncluding the theose freaky looking erectors that you just cant hit if youre wasting time doing busllshit things like lat pull downs with 32 different attachments

 

[gjohnson5]

bingo if youre doing deads last that means you are using a sgnificanlty lower weight than what you are capable of using..

If that is true then you are MISSING the whole point of deadlifts to begin with
personally i dont feel deads in my legs at all and i can pull jsut as much evenif i squatted heavy 2 days before pulling- to me they re not a leg movement at all but everyone pulls differently..at some point though your legs will stop bearing the grunt of the work and it will fall to the posterior inncluding the theose freaky looking erectors that you just cant hit if youre wasting time doing busllshit things like lat pull downs with 32 different attachments

Agreed

give us the wnt2bbeast back day that includes deads?

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Agreed

give us the wnt2bbeast back day that includes deads?

well i train westside so i do lats almost every day
and yes occasionally i do lat pulls but i do them completely different and for a complete differnt reason than a BB'er would

but for a BB'er wanting to add size and all the oter stuff to their back i dont think you can go wrong with sticking with basic things

Deads up to a heavy triple
Bent Rows
Chins/Pull-ups add weight if you can easily do sets of 10
thats really all anyone needs
DB Rows
some machines are half way decent
CSR and hammer high row etc but i would stick with a barbell and plates

 

[BiggT]

well i train westside so i do lats almost every day
and yes occasionally i do lat pulls but i do them completely different and for a complete differnt reason than a BB'er would

but for a BB'er wanting to add size and all the oter stuff to their back i dont think you can go wrong with sticking with basic things

Deads up to a heavy triple
Bent Rows
Chins/Pull-ups add weight if you can easily do sets of 10
thats really all anyone needs
DB Rows
some machines are half way decent
CSR and hammer high row etc but i would stick with a barbell and plates

I could not agree more.

 

[hangclean]

Depends on what your goals are. I'll put it this way, I would never do HEAVY squats and HEAVY deads on the same day.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Depends on what your goals are. I'll put it this way, I would never do HEAVY squats and HEAVY deads on the same day.

they do them at westside like that
not all the time but nothing wrong with it if you do it that way

 

[stilleto]

Depends on what your goals are. I'll put it this way, I would never do HEAVY squats and HEAVY deads on the same day.

you can. i think if you do, do the squats first- don't tire your back before squats.

 

[BiggT]

Squats and deads heavy on the same day are perfectly fine from my experiences.....Squat first and you'll have no problems.

 

[hangclean]

Sorry. If you do a few sets of heavy squats and then try to do heavy deadlifts, you are not only setting yourself up for an injury, but you are NOT going to be able to lift as much on the deads.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Sorry. If you do a few sets of heavy squats and then try to do heavy deadlifts, you are not only setting yourself up for an injury, but you are NOT going to be able to lift as much on the deads.

well lik ei said its not done that way allthe time but many westisders do exactly just that..they seem pretty damn strong to me

fuck go look at Bartley's log
doing squats with triple blues followed by sumo pulls over 700 hundo
balls my friend, will and desire..never say never..put some doubt in your brain and it will eat you alive

 

[Dial_tone]

bingo if youre doing deads last that means you are using a sgnificanlty lower weight than what you are capable of using..

If that is true then you are MISSING the whole point of deadlifts to begin with

The point of deads for a BB'er is muscular growth. Whatever exercise you do last will have to be done with less weight, so should I avoid that by doing one exercise per day? I rep 225 lbs at the end of my back workout, or whatever weight I can rep with good form. Yea, it's super light but at the end of my back workout it's plenty heavy. I'm not lifting weight for the sake of lifting it. Maybe people ought to learn how to maintain good form when they're tired instead.

 

[AEKDB]

Msfit - When deadlifting imagine putting your head through the ceiling. This will keep your head up and spine straight. The rest of the movement will vary by person.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

The point of deads for a BB'er is muscular growth. Whatever exercise you do last will have to be done with less weight, so should I avoid that by doing one exercise per day? I rep 225 lbs at the end of my back workout, or whatever weight I can rep with good form. Yea, it's super light but at the end of my back workout it's plenty heavy. I'm not lifting weight for the sake of lifting it. Maybe people ought to learn how to maintain good form when they're tired instead.

but there is NO way a heavy set of deads (do 5-10 reps if thats what you prefer) can compare to any other back exercise like lat pulls or cable rows

Look at any good puller BB'er or Pl'er they have insanely thick backs
Johnnie Jackson or Mike Ruggiera

 

[JL_204]

I squat 2-3x's per week and I have no problem pulling from the floor. Its all about conditioning.

 

[Dial_tone]

but there is NO way a heavy set of deads (do 5-10 reps if thats what you prefer) can compare to any other back exercise like lat pulls or cable rows

I don't really feel deads unless I do them last. Too many bodyparts are involved - traps, lats, spine, butt, quads, biceps, forearms, abs. When a BB'er does an exercise we want to hit ONE bodypart at a time and kill it. If I do them last in a back workout I can use my fresh quads, hips and straps to overload my pre-exhausted back.

Look at any good puller BB'er or Pl'er they have insanely thick backs
Johnnie Jackson or Mike Ruggiera

and? Nobody is debating whether deads build a thick back, although I certainly could make the argument effectively. Everyone points to Johnnie and Ronnie as having thick backs AND being deadlifters, thereby making the assumption that they have thick backs because they deadlift. Well, they all also train heavy too, so who's to say their thick back isn't simply from training heavy and not deadlifting? I built a pretty good back while rarely regular deadlifting. I've almost exclusively done high rep stiff leg deadlifts.

 

[hangclean]

I'll rephrase my post. You cant do heavy squats and heavy deadlifts in the same workout effectively unless your juiced to the gills, like all the Westside lifters.

 

[satchboogie]

i have to agree with DIALTONE on all points made...

for me, deads worked best as the last exercise on back day.,

 

[wnt2bBeast]

I don't really feel deads unless I do them last. Too many bodyparts are involved - traps, lats, spine, butt, quads, biceps, forearms, abs. When a BB'er does an exercise we want to hit ONE bodypart at a time and kill it. If I do them last in a back workout I can use my fresh quads, hips and straps to overload my pre-exhausted back.




and? Nobody is debating whether deads build a thick back, although I certainly could make the argument effectively. Everyone points to Johnnie and Ronnie as having thick backs AND being deadlifters, thereby making the assumption that they have thick backs because they deadlift. Well, they all also train heavy too, so who's to say their thick back isn't simply from training heavy and not deadlifting? I built a pretty good back while rarely regular deadlifting. I've almost exclusively done high rep stiff leg deadlifts.

how do i know?
like i said look at any WPO competitior many of them will crush most BB'er from the back..these guys mostly pull and and skip the iso crap that BB'er do yet they have tremendously thick backs..that how i know deads work
youre trying to separate BB'er and PL'er if you read my original post i mentioned that a BB'er shoudl train slightly different but really should hit the deads heavy..i can gurantee if you are doing deads last and "repping out" that your form is turning shitty as you get near the end of your set..thats not a personal attack is just a FACT it happens to me when im tired and it happens to the best pullers

if you cant feeel deads when you do tem first then you arent using a heavy enough weight (that doesnt mean you should be pulling 1 RM) if youre sticking with sets of 8 fine but make it an 8RM otherwise youre missing the point of deadlifting

 

[wnt2bBeast]

I'll rephrase my post. You cant do heavy squats and heavy deadlifts in the same workout effectively unless your juiced to the gills, like all the Westside lifters.

thats a lot of rephrasing LOL
i dont juice and have done heavy pulls after heavy box squats
yes its tiring but also remember pulls come last in a meet

if i just go inot te gym and do deads and work up to a 1RM will i be able to pull the same # in a meet after squatting and arching hard on the bench???

 

[stilleto]

I'm sorry DT, but if you can deadlift more, you'll get more out of them. if you don't "feel" them, then you aren't doing them right, and you're first in line to hurt your back.

 

[thelion2005]

I need to K hit you twice because legs are the most intense day in the gym for me.

it seems masochistic to
1. squats
2. leg presses
3. stiff legs
4. curls and extensions
5. and then try to have a good day deadlifting

Mr. Johnson .... and others ....

Why do Deads at all? And I'm not being stupid or rude. I've just not understood this exercise's value vs. the probability (not possibility) you'll be injuried.

The hips and lower back receive a lot of stimulation from quad work and rows. Light weight hypers really hit the lower back if that is what you want.

And I've done them correctly and heavy last on back day ... and saw no big return ... and done them wrong (it doesn't take much) and spent time laying flat on the floor with my legs up hoping the pain goes away.

Please educate me.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Mr. Johnson .... and others ....

Why do Deads at all? And I'm not being stupid or rude. I've just not understood this exercise's value vs. the probability (not possibility) you'll be injuried.

The hips and lower back receive a lot of stimulation from quad work and rows. Light weight hypers really hit the lower back if that is what you want.

And I've done them correctly and heavy last on back day ... and saw no big return ... and done them wrong (it doesn't take much) and spent time laying flat on the floor with my legs up hoping the pain goes away.

Please educate me.

first learn how to pull BEFORE you put any kinda weight no the bar

yeah you may look wierd with just quarters on the bar but once you learn teh groove and where you should be and get your breathing down then you can add weights

its no more dangerous than bench pressing my friend..9 out of 10 that lay down on a bench dont have a fuggin clue..they think lay down and push te weight up thats all there is to it right? wrong!!!

 

[Dial_tone]

There's a lot more to a good back than thickness, as far as BB'ing goes...width, detail, separation. I'm doing okay with my method.

 

[blut wump]

I'll rephrase my post. You cant do heavy squats and heavy deadlifts in the same workout effectively unless your juiced to the gills, like all the Westside lifters.

Given that 'heavy' is a relative term dependent on the individual, juice accelerates you up the conditioning chain, nothing much more. If you can't do both on the same day then take it as a sign that you need to improve your conditioning.

 

[BiggT]

Given that 'heavy' is a relative term dependent on the individual, juice accelerates you up the conditioning chain, nothing much more. If you can't do both on the same day then take it as a sign that you need to improve your conditioning.

Exactly!!

If you're incapable of doing an effective deadlift workout after an effective squat workout, then you need to condition yourself to train.....juice will do nothing but help and help some more, but it is by no means a requirement.

 

[stilleto]

There's a lot more to a good back than thickness, as far as BB'ing goes...width, detail, separation. I'm doing okay with my method.

yeah, you have a great back, but deadlifts aren't for your upper back...

 

[stilleto]

I'll rephrase my post. You cant do heavy squats and heavy deadlifts in the same workout effectively unless your juiced to the gills, like all the Westside lifters.

please note- i can, and have, done them on them effectively on the same day, given my time constraints. and not only am i not juiced to the gills, i'm not juiced at all and never have been.

 

[Dial_tone]

wnt2b, that's it....it's on like Donkey Kong.....you and me....tricep kickbacks with the pink dumbbells til somebody drops. Last man standing gets the girl.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

wnt2b, that's it....it's on like Donkey Kong.....you and me....tricep kickbacks with the pink dumbbells til somebody drops. Last man standing gets the girl.

LOL
as long as you show me how to do a kickback im game

 

[hardrock]

If I did stiff leg deads I'd do them on leg day, but I don't.

I do them at the end of my back workout and never go heavier than I can handle for 8 strict reps. I usually do 3-5 sets depending on how much energy I have left and I feel it for days after. Since I started doing them, my overall back development and strength has gone through the roof. I love 'em!

 

[gjohnson5]

Mr. Johnson .... and others ....

Why do Deads at all? And I'm not being stupid or rude. I've just not understood this exercise's value vs. the probability (not possibility) you'll be injuried.

The hips and lower back receive a lot of stimulation from quad work and rows. Light weight hypers really hit the lower back if that is what you want.

And I've done them correctly and heavy last on back day ... and saw no big return ... and done them wrong (it doesn't take much) and spent time laying flat on the floor with my legs up hoping the pain goes away.

Please educate me.

I'll start the education by defining the term masochistic

masochistic = sef defeating

Basically I was not agree-ing with the workout I stated about doing heavy legs and then doing deads. The same is true for doing heavy back and then doing deads.

Basically I think wnt2bbeast and the PL'ers have a point that you should hit back with HEAVY basic movement and then you can do the isolation stuff
after youve worn the muscle down. Those type exersizes are just as effective with lower weight. I am in agreement with the PL'ers that the basic movements should be done with heavy weight when you are rested so you can get maximum performance with as little risk from form break / injury

So we were agree-ing with each other but I think the term "masochism" threw you off.

Dialtone is doing it in reverse and obviously what he does works for him. But then again , a man the genetics of dial tone , I think anything would work for him.

 

[UA_Iron]

LOL
as long as you show me how to do a kickback im game

haha, I work at my gym. Some girl asked me how to do a tricep kickback....I pretty much told her that seated behind the head db extension would do her better. But I showed her the kickback anyway....

then it dawned on me, I had never bothered to do one of those before

 

[bluehen]

I do Romanian deadlifts with back and ham's. They kill the ham's and erectors equally.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

haha, I work at my gym. Some girl asked me how to do a tricep kickback....I pretty much told her that seated behind the head db extension would do her better. But I showed her the kickback anyway....

then it dawned on me, I had never bothered to do one of those before

i would have lied and told her skulls or the DB exte's were kickbacks

 

[hangclean]

Conditioning is not the issue here! I have been doing OLY lifting and strongman training for 10 years and you can bet your ass that my conditioning is better than most people on this board. If you go into the gym on your heavy squat day and proceed to do more than one set of heavy squats, there is no way in hell you will be able to deadlift with optimal weights after that. Pull throughs, reverse hypers, assistance excercises, whatever. Deadlifts NO. I dont see what is so hard to comprehend. At a powerlifting meet, yes the deadlift is last. Are you doing multiple sets of more than one reps on the squat? NO. Plus its the final competition that your preparing for so your not in the gym busting out 1 rep maxes all the time are you? Do you train bench, deadlift and squat all in the same day ? I would hope not.

 

[Dial_tone]

yeah, you have a great back, but deadlifts aren't for your upper back...

so how come everytime somebody tries to show deads build a thick back they show a pic of some guy with huge lats?

 

[stilleto]

so how come everytime somebody tries to show deads build a thick back they show a pic of some guy with huge lats?

cause they are showing a guy who works out smartly.

if you can deadlift more weight, you'll get more out of them.
you'll get more if you do them first. plus, your form will more likely be correct if you're not exhausted already.

bad form=injury waiting to happen.

is this really about deadlifts or are you and wnt2b just fighting over who gets the girl?

 

[AEKDB]

Sure some body builders are good deadlifters. But, when I think of the deadlift I picture Jouko Ahola, Kazmier, and Doyle Kenady. These guys are monsters!

 

[AEKDB]

Great shot of Kaz's back and calfs.

 

[satchboogie]

....

 

[thelion2005]

....

I like the dif between back and waist. Old school looks for 13" dif. Reeves had over 20. You must be close to that!

Off the subject ....
Do I see an Ampeg amp and Fender in the background?

I've got a tube Ampeg (replacement tubes from Poland and Russia) V40 and a Mesa, a blond Guild that looks like a Birdland, and a Fender Strat.

You play for fun? I do ... lots better than therapy.

 

[satchboogie]

its a fender ultimate chorus next to an ibanze JS1000 (joe satriani signature model)

although lately i been enjoying my 57 american fender..
sunburst on maple neck..
dimarzios all around..

 

[*MissFit*]

The V is wicked on a guy

 

[anthrax]

yeah, you have a great back, but deadlifts aren't for your upper back...

Try clean grip deads and you'll see that DL are also for upper back

 

[wak706]

Do DL's on back day.It should be done first.

 

[nsashbl01]

I have been trying different things for a few months regarding deads. I used to do bent rows first to warm up my back, but switched to deads first and I just do a few warm up sets. I definatly pull more weight for more reps this way. I usually only go to 315-335 if I don't do deads first. If I do them first I do work up to 365 or more for 8-10 reps. Working through an injury now so have to be carefull. I'd suggest trying them first and going as heavy as you can do strictly.

On some days I'll also thro gm's or stiff deads in if I work hams that day. Otherwise do stiff deads on leg day, (last). I keep at least 2 days between legs and back.