DC's training- what am i doing wrong?

[DepressiveJuice]

started DC routine today and i feel cheated. i did one set with negatives in each rep.

incline bench 1X12
military press 1X10
tricep pulldowns 1X10
lat pulldown 1X12
bent over bb rows 1X12

and thats it. i was struggling on each rep but i still feel as if that was not enough. am i missing something?

 

[Bulldog_10]

started DC routine today and i feel cheated. i did one set with negatives in each rep.

incline bench 1X12
military press 1X10
tricep pulldowns 1X10
lat pulldown 1X12
bent over bb rows 1X12

and thats it. i was struggling on each rep but i still feel as if that was not enough. am i missing something?

That's DC training? What is the theory behind it? Looks pretty weak to me.

 

[jerkbox]

it takes some time to learn to develop the intensity needed....

rest pause sets and statics will kill you too.....

I'm assuming you read all the info on it.

 

[Bulldog_10]

it takes some time to learn to develop the intensity needed....

rest pause sets and statics will kill you too.....

I'm assuming you read all the info on it.

I just read it...I don't like it.

 

[jerkbox]

ok.

 

[Debaser]

I just read it...I don't like it.

Must...hold...back...

 

[Bulldog_10]

Must...hold...back...

Well...explain why it's so good. I'm not a fan of it, personally.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

Looks like we're going to get another 10 page thread.

 

[Debaser]

Well...explain why it's so good. I'm not a fan of it, personally.

Well, I would go so far as to say it's one of the best, most well-rounded programs created. Most trainees on the program experience some of the best strength and size gains of their life.

When you say you're not a fan of it personally, does that mean you've tried it? If not, tell me what strikes you as ineffective about the program.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Well, I would go so far as to say it's one of the best, most well-rounded programs created. Most trainees on the program experience some of the best strength and size gains of their life.

When you say you're not a fan of it personally, does that mean you've tried it? If not, tell me what strikes you as ineffective about the program.

Nope...haven't tried it. One set per body part just doesn't seem like enough of a stimulus for hypertrophy, or strength gain. I'd think about using that system for strength maintenance maybe.

Also, did you say that this system regularly implements negatives and isometric lifts?

I have to admit, i skimmed over the article...maybe i'll go back and read it in depth.

 

[DepressiveJuice]

I just read it...I don't like it.

i didnt like it either when i read about it. still skeptical about it. but i decided to try it to see what all the hype is about.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Well, I would go so far as to say it's one of the best, most well-rounded programs created. Most trainees on the program experience some of the best strength and size gains of their life.

When you say you're not a fan of it personally, does that mean you've tried it? If not, tell me what strikes you as ineffective about the program.

Well, I've read through some of it...and you say it's well-rounded? Looks to me like it's high intensity all the time.

My training routine uses some of the concepts he is talking about, but I personally like my way better.

 

[Bulldog_10]

i didnt like it either when i read about it. still skeptical about it. but i decided to try it to see what all the hype is about.

See, the thing is...it will work at first...and then you'll come back and say it's the shit. But IMO it won't last the test of time. If you keep the intensity high all the time, you're body adapts...it needs more variation. DC disregards an important part of any good routine, volume.

Quoting Charles Poliquin: "One must force adaptation of the neuromuscular system through volume and then stimulate it through intensity."

 

[Debaser]

By well-rounded I meant that both the strength and size gains are substantial, rather than just one of the two. It also incorporates a great loaded stretching program.

If it weren't a great stimulus for hypertrophy, then I don't think DC would be 300 muscular lbs.

 

[louden_swain]

Its amazing to me how people criticize this program when they haven't tried it or they are not performing it properly.

People are not following this program correctly because:

1. they are missing the specifics in the training protocol
2. rep schemes are off
3. Not knowing when to perform rest pause, negatives, and static holds
4. failing to perform extreme stretches
5. failing to comply with a diet plan
6. the inability to devote 100 percent in terms of mental and physical energy

I am willing to bet that 85 percent of the people who claim they are following DC training are missing out on key points.

When someone comes and says, I can't feel it. . .then obviously its the trainers fault.

When I look at your routine and your comments, I don't see any attributes of DC.

I am sorry, but you better read word for word on the specifics of the program. . .not what is listed in the sticky, but from the cycle for pennies website.

Based on your program, it seems substandard and incomplete without sufficient details. You say nothing about rest pause, extreme stretches, or static holds.

 

[Bulldog_10]

By well-rounded I meant that both the strength and size gains are substantial, rather than just one of the two. It also incorporates a great loaded stretching program.

If it weren't a great stimulus for hypertrophy, then I don't think DC would be 300 muscular lbs.

of course this will work for some people, probably everyone actually. Everything works...it's just that some things work better than others.

 

[louden_swain]

Re: Re: DC's training- what am i doing wrong?

That's DC training? What is the theory behind it? Looks pretty weak to me.

No, this is not DC training

And no, the DC program is not weak. . .I promise you!!

 

[louden_swain]

Well...explain why it's so good. I'm not a fan of it, personally.

I am willing to bet that you haven't even tried the program.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

I am sorry, but you better read word for word on the specifics of the program. . .not what is listed in the sticky, but from the cycle for pennies website.

Louden: where is the website that explains it? I would like to read up on it.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Re: Re: Re: DC's training- what am i doing wrong?

No, this is not DC training

And no, the DC program is not weak. . .I promise you!!

I trust you bro...seriously. I'm not bashing the program, I'm sure it works. But there are some flaws, IMO. I actually do something very similar. The thing that i don't like about the article is that every time he talks about other programs he assumes high volume, low intensity...that's not what everyone does.

High intensity works...I use it in my program, but I also use high volume, moderate volume, low volume, moderate intensity, low intensity...And I feel that is key to making gains. I also train each body part twice in about a week, so I have just as many growth periods, or whatever he calls them.

And I periodize the volume and intensity, changing about every 4 weeks or so...sometimes longer if i feel the need.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Louden: where is the website that explains it? I would like to read up on it.

check out the sticky...click on DC training.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

He said "not what is listed in the sticky, but from the cycle for pennies website." Just wondering what site that is.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

Well...there is something listed in the sticky, but then there is also a link to the article...check it out.

duh... thanks

 

[Bulldog_10]

I am willing to bet that you haven't even tried the program.

No, you're right...I haven't used it (per se), I already stated that. you could actually say that I have used it before...I use it every once in a while. Once every 16-20 weeks I go through something similar to the DC program. But I don't think using this program all the time would be effective for me.

 

[Bulldog_10]

He said "not what is listed in the sticky, but from the cycle for pennies website." Just wondering what site that is.

Well...there is something listed in the sticky, but then there is also a link to the article...check it out.

 

[DepressiveJuice]

Re: Re: Re: DC's training- what am i doing wrong?

No, this is not DC training

And no, the DC program is not weak. . .I promise you!!

lol. youre kidding me? i read the article- thought i had everything covered. what else am i missing? i workout first thing in the AM on an empty stomach. do my cardio right after my workout. i dont do the stretches- i think it wastes too much time. actually, all i did was one set with 6-8sec negatives. i was following the sticky- thought that had everything covered? (course, i didnt want to read through all those pages...)

 

[Debaser]

You seem to have pretty good genetics. If you can do high-intensity, high volume, AND train bodyparts twice a week, you are in a very small minority.

 

[Bulldog_10]

You seem to have pretty good genetics. If you can do high-intensity, high volume, AND train bodyparts twice a week, you are in a very small minority.

That's not what I said at all. I vary the intensity and volume. They're never the same, one will be high, one low...or the other way around...or some middle ground.

Here is a link to a thread where I posted the basics of my routine:

Periodization

 

[louden_swain]

Re: Re: Re: Re: DC's training- what am i doing wrong?

i read the article- thought i had everything covered. what else am i missing?

How can you cover everything when you haven't even read all of the information?? You are missing extreme stretches, rest pause reps, and static holds. . . I bet you are also neglecting the breathing patterns as well.

i dont do the stretches- i think it wastes too much time. actually, all i did was one set with 6-8sec negatives.

Wastes time??? lol. . .its part of the program amigo!! Again, no mention of rest pause and static holds. . .incomplete program.

i didnt want to read through all those pages...)

you just answered your first question (I thought I had everything covered)

Its no wonder you couldn't get anything out of the program, you are missing several attributes. Its frustrating trying to explain this program to people who are constantly complaining how they do not feel it working.

Like I said, you have to read everything and come in with a positive attitude.

 

[IJ26]

I just started it today and loved it. You have to do the strecthes, they enhance your pump immensely. I hadnt felt a pump like that since the last time I was on gear. I cant say the prgram is great bc Ive only used it one day but I was impressed.

 

[Ghandiman]

Bulldog_10: would u be willing to post a sample routine of urs for us to view? im interested in ur routine.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Bulldog_10: would u be willing to post a sample routine of urs for us to view? im interested in ur routine.

if you want to email me, I have it saved on my computer...I can just attach it and send it to you.

 

[Debaser]

Here is a sample day of my DC training, I'm sure Louden would agree with me:

Chest: Hammer chest press...warmups, Fail at the 8th rep or so, rest for 20 seconds, 2-3 more reps, rest for 20 seconds, then eek out those last 1-2 reps. Then I will do a static hold.

Shoulders: Overhead press...warmups if needed (usually I'll only need one after the chest exercise), Fail around 8-10 reps, then rest-pause only one time (I don't do it twice because it's hard for me to keep form on that very last rep)

Triceps: Close-grip bench...warmups, Fail at 8, rest-pause twice if in a power rack, once if I'm not in one.

--Now extreme stretching for those three bodyparts.

Back width: Supinated pulldowns. Fail at 8-10, rest pause twice.

Back thickness: Partial deadlifts in the rack. One heavy set of 5 reps. Then I rest and perform a brutal 20 rep set, sometimes needing to do breathing reps between 10 and 20. At the end, I hold on to the bar as long as possible (until I'm about to drop it) at the top. This isn't really a static hold but it is a good time to do some extra grip work.

--Then the back stretching.

That's it!

 

[bignate73]

there has been so much of this hashed out in the sticky thread that we all contributed to. from the stretches, to eating, to statics (when and when not to use them), to rep tempo. it all should be there. i think people are skimming the main points, picking and choosing the ones the "know" will be good for them and skipping the rest. its all pretty much spelled out in the cycling for pennies thread and then hashed out thoroughly through explanation and example and even personal testimonial in the elitefitness DC thread.

 

[sk*]

started DC routine today and i feel cheated. i did one set with negatives in each rep.

incline bench 1X12
military press 1X10
tricep pulldowns 1X10
lat pulldown 1X12
bent over bb rows 1X12

and thats it. i was struggling on each rep but i still feel as if that was not enough. am i missing something?

That doesn't even resemble dc's training.

Where are the rest pauses? Slow negatives? 6-8rep range? Static hold? Stretch?

????

-sk

 

[DepressiveJuice]

Here is a sample day of my DC training, I'm sure Louden would agree with me:

Chest: Hammer chest press...warmups, Fail at the 8th rep or so, rest for 20 seconds, 2-3 more reps, rest for 20 seconds, then eek out those last 1-2 reps. Then I will do a static hold.

Shoulders: Overhead press...warmups if needed (usually I'll only need one after the chest exercise), Fail around 8-10 reps, then rest-pause only one time (I don't do it twice because it's hard for me to keep form on that very last rep)

Triceps: Close-grip bench...warmups, Fail at 8, rest-pause twice if in a power rack, once if I'm not in one.

--Now extreme stretching for those three bodyparts.

Back width: Supinated pulldowns. Fail at 8-10, rest pause twice.

Back thickness: Partial deadlifts in the rack. One heavy set of 5 reps. Then I rest and perform a brutal 20 rep set, sometimes needing to do breathing reps between 10 and 20. At the end, I hold on to the bar as long as possible (until I'm about to drop it) at the top. This isn't really a static hold but it is a good time to do some extra grip work.

--Then the back stretching.

That's it!

sweet. thanks bro. starting over again this wed. now wasnt that easier than just reading 50+ threads?

 

[Ish]

http://www.gotfina.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=8742

Check that out for a quick guide to get started. I do recommend reading the sticky here and t he thread on animalkits. DC's program is good though, just give it a chance and make sure to eat!

 

[blinddeafmute]

Just had to chime in.

There isnt any aspect of the training that is unimportant.

Do the stretches for 4 weeks and tell me you dont see a difference.

It all goes together as 1 package. You cant pick it apart.

Proper warm ups
rest pauses
slow negatives
extreme stretching
intensity

The only thing DC mentions leaving out if needed is maybe rest pausing or static holds just to make sure you can recover. I would venture to say that I have pretty bad genetics, and I can recover from the rest pauses. I havent worked up to static holds yet.

Ive gained weight,
Ive gained strength
Very low BF gain

I didnt thing it sounded all that good either at first, I wanted to grow more times than a 1 per week program so I gave it a shot and I am impressed.

 

[blinddeafmute]

BTW, dont forget the cruise period and the 3 seperate exercises per bodypart so you only do the same exercise every third workout for that part. Make sense?

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

The cruise period should come up when you feel it necessary, I think. If gains are beginning to stall, you may want to cruise. If you have other exercise selections to add in, though, you may want to do that instead of cruising.

The routine's been summed up pretty well, thanks to the 38th post by blinddeafmute. Everything goes together in a package. If you don't do it all, then don't say you're doing DC!

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Can you guys see why i get frustrated now?

 

[bigp3]

Okay here is my take on it and why it makes so much sense to me. All that is needed to make a muscle grow is overload (the overload principle. I.E. More weight more intensity. Increased volume does not translate into overload. If this was true, you would see marathon runners with 34 inch quads. Think about it,,, if 8 sets of an excercise is great then why is 800 not better. Where does it stop. If you truly take the time to think about it, all that is needed to grow is one set per bodypart that constitutes an overload over your last workout. Anything that is above that dips into you recovery abilities. I would also dare say if you are putting everything you have into that one set that you would not be able to generate enough ability to match that intensity on any further sets. With his program, your body is given the stimulous to grow without overtraining. This allows for you train more often while recovering with more growth producing workouts per year. To me it is the first program that i have read that has logic and thought behind. Everything in this program makes perfect sense if you take the time to read about it and keep an open mind. People are always resistant to change and are afraid to give up old habits. It is a threat to them when someone presents a radical new idea. The earth was flat and the sun revolved around it at one time. Then someone came along and challenged this idea. People paniced, the church cried heritic. Okay i know that was a little dramatic, but you get my point. Keep an open mind and use your intelligence.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Okay here is my take on it and why it makes so much sense to me. All that is needed to make a muscle grow is overload (the overload principle. I.E. More weight more intensity. Increased volume does not translate into overload. If this was true, you would see marathon runners with 34 inch quads. Think about it,,, if 8 sets of an excercise is great then why is 800 not better. Where does it stop. If you truly take the time to think about it, all that is needed to grow is one set per bodypart that constitutes an overload over your last workout. Anything that is above that dips into you recovery abilities. I would also dare say if you are putting everything you have into that one set that you would not be able to generate enough ability to match that intensity on any further sets. With his program, your body is given the stimulous to grow without overtraining. This allows for you train more often while recovering with more growth producing workouts per year. To me it is the first program that i have read that has logic and thought behind. Everything in this program makes perfect sense if you take the time to read about it and keep an open mind. People are always resistant to change and are afraid to give up old habits. It is a threat to them when someone presents a radical new idea. The earth was flat and the sun revolved around it at one time. Then someone came along and challenged this idea. People paniced, the church cried heritic. Okay i know that was a little dramatic, but you get my point. Keep an open mind and use your intelligence.

I agree with the theory, but I think this training routine takes the theory to extremes. Volume is necessary in any training program, and it should be varied more than this program allows you to.

 

[bigp3]

with his program you rotate exercises usually 3 different per body part. I guess the proof is in the results. I am going to me working with it strictly for the next year and see what happens. I don't think I am going to be dissapointed. My goal is to hit 300lbs and I dont think that is out of my reach right now. I will post before and after pics in a year....

 

[overhead]

Have a question for you guys that may have been on this program longer than me. I started two weeks ago after reading ALL the threads. The workouts and stretching are tough enough, but I think the eating may kill me . Anyway I am a real active guy outside the gym, surf two or three times a week and play hockey atleast once a week plus three short but intense cardio sessions. I do not have a problem putting on weight, as a matter of fact currently I am a fat ass at 18% body fat (that is down from a high of 36% last year). I learned to move the leg days around my hockey games, skating the same day as that quad/hamstring routine is not fun. You think I should make any other dietier or routine adjustments?

 

[Debaser]

I agree with the theory, but I think this training routine takes the theory to extremes. Volume is necessary in any training program, and it should be varied more than this program allows you to.

It's difficult to stand by "volume is necessary" when so many people have made huge gains (including myself) with extremely low volume.

 

[bigp3]

bro if you want to get big,,, you cant half ass anything,,, diet,,, supps,,, etc.... If you want to surf,,, surf,,, if you want to get big get big,,, believe me I used to love to play basketball all the time and finally realized that it is not conducive to getting large... Ask yourself what you want the most then make your decision,,, if you want to get big then go balls to the wall with that decision

 

[Bulldog_10]

It's difficult to stand by "volume is necessary" when so many people have made huge gains (including myself) with extremely low volume.

Yes, as I've said before...you will gain doing high intensity all the time...but your body will also overadapt...

you will gain from pretty much any type of training program, but after a while, if you don't change it up, it becomes less and less efficient.

 

[overhead]

Thanks for the reply and I understand what you are saying, but I believe I can put on the size I want without stopping all other activities in my life. Now, if I wanted to become a 300 pound monster I would drop it all and focus on lifting alone. Just some background, I was at 257 with all of these activities going, of course that was at 36% or so body fat. I assume if I can maintain body fat like that doing what I do now than I would think I could get to 225-230 at 10% body fat without dropping everything. I could be wrong, but there is only one way to find out. Maybe I should have noted that I only am looking for 230 pounds, not 270.

 

[IronLion]

Time to throw mine in:

I feel like DC's program is a valid training method. I think it looks similar to what Dorian Yates was such an advocate of. However it's not a great program for athletes and it is not a great program for powerlifters. That being said I think that as a bb routine it is a great program. I think some people have the capacity to handle more volume though and for those people this is not a good fit.

If you do 10 sets of 2 you can work at 500 pounds

If you do 1 set of 20 you can work with 315 pounds

both have the same volume one has more intensity, some will induce more hypertrophy from the lower intensity higher rep system...those people most likely have more endurance type II fiber than the people who grow more from the higher intensity routine.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Time to throw mine in:

I feel like DC's program is a valid training method. I think it looks similar to what Dorian Yates was such an advocate of. However it's not a great program for athletes and it is not a great program for powerlifters. That being said I think that as a bb routine it is a great program. I think some people have the capacity to handle more volume though and for those people this is not a good fit.

If you do 10 sets of 2 you can work at 500 pounds

If you do 1 set of 20 you can work with 315 pounds

both have the same volume one has more intensity, some will induce more hypertrophy from the lower intensity higher rep system...those people most likely have more endurance type II fiber than the people who grow more from the higher intensity routine.

You're right, but you will only grow off the same routine for a limited amount of time. Your neuromuscular system will adapt to monotonous training...hence the need for more volume at some point in our training, and the need for lowering the intensity for a period of time also.

 

[IronLion]

excuse my ignorance but I am not going to wade through all the bickering in the dc sticky to find out if it is periodized at all?

does the dc routine change or does it stay the same as far as intersity, rep scheme, sets or lack there-of?

 

[sk*]

excuse my ignorance but I am not going to wade through all the bickering in the dc sticky to find out if it is periodized at all?

does the dc routine change or does it stay the same as far as intersity, rep scheme, sets or lack there-of?

4 weeks "balls to wall", then 2weeks "cruise time."

-sk

 

[IronLion]

ok, sounds reasonable...I think it would yield great gains for a few years, but at some point more attention needs to be paid to stabilizers and specific strengths otherwise I don't think anyone could continue to get stronger...IMO the only thing I see as a potential problem is that there is not enough attention paid to weak link theory so that strength and possibly size will be held back in the long run because the core and low back will be developing slower than the legs thus holding them back. No speed work will at some point be a hinderance.

 

[bigp3]

I have to disagree that you need more volume. Volume does not constitute an increase in overload. It is a scientific fact that all that is needed to grow is a muscle overload. Also, if you read into DC's program, he recomends doing a different exercise for a body part when your gains stop with the said movement. This prevents stops in gains. Get as strong as you can on one movement then move onto another one and become the strongest you can in that. I think his program is designed to bring about the most rapid gains in the shortest period of time. I believe with this program you can reach your genetic potential in a much shorter time since you are training more often without overtraining.

Yes it is very similar to the principles that Dorian Yates used.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

The routine is sound, but it all must go together.

I was skeptical at first too, still am honestly, but when I read it and actually just think logically, the body doesn't know the different between one or ten sets. If the muscle tissue is damaged, the muscle tissue will be repaired.

IronLion, I thought about that at one point too, though I don't know how long it would actually take for the stabilizers to become an issue. Which stabilizers, exactly, are you talking about? Perhaps they can be worked into the routine every so often to keep gains strong.

As for speed work, how will lack of that hinder progress any?

 

[Bulldog_10]

The routine is sound, but it all must go together.

I was skeptical at first too, still am honestly, but when I read it and actually just think logically, the body doesn't know the different between one or ten sets. If the muscle tissue is damaged, the muscle tissue will be repaired.

IronLion, I thought about that at one point too, though I don't know how long it would actually take for the stabilizers to become an issue. Which stabilizers, exactly, are you talking about? Perhaps they can be worked into the routine every so often to keep gains strong.

As for speed work, how will lack of that hinder progress any?

The body does know the difference between one set and ten.

Speed work needs to be done for the neuromuscular system.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

What would happen if speed work isn't done, because what you told me isn't convincing enough.

The body doesn't know the difference in terms of the number of sets you do. What I mean by that is, the body doesn't have to do a certain actual number of sets for the muscles to be stimulated to grow, but rather reach a certain level of intensity or overload which will force you to adapt via strength and size. This can all be achieved in one set.

 

[Bulldog_10]

What would happen if speed work isn't done, because what you told me isn't convincing enough.

The body doesn't know the difference in terms of the number of sets you do. What I mean by that is, the body doesn't have to do a certain actual number of sets for the muscles to be stimulated to grow, but rather reach a certain level of intensity or overload which will force you to adapt via strength and size. This can all be achieved in one set.

But you're not just training muscles when you train, and if you do...your training program is not complete. You also must train your neuromuscular system, which is where volume and speed work come into play.

Quoting Charles Poliquin, "One must force adaptation of the neuromuscular system through volume and then stimulate it through intensity."

And if you don't think this guy knows his shit...take a look at david boston.

 

[bigp3]

all I can say is the proof is in the pudding,,, look at some of the people he has trained,,, I have never seen a program that puts so much mass on people in such a short time

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

Yeah true, it really has proven successful for alot of people. Just look at the fuckin' thread, it has over 1000 posts. DC really knows his shit. I plan to follow his style of training fairly soon.

 

[Debaser]

I believe that out of the people he has trained in person, the "minimum" amount of muscle gained by them was 47 lbs.

 

[Debaser]

I forgot to note, these weren't newbies but guys who had already spent years in the gym.

 

[louden_swain]

As a last remark. . .DC is an awesome program!! It has changed my views on training.

I no longer perform 9 to 12 sets per bodypart, but rather 1 set.

People are skeptical when they hear this, but I am the one who is putting on the lbs, while the rest of these jokers are overtrained under fed, and wasting their time performing countless number of sets that are unecessary.

As far as I am concerned, DC training is a gateway of turning into a big boy and the program will work for anyone who has had years of training experience.

People are always suggesting that DC training causes CNS burnout or overload. . . this type of statement is absolute rubbish!! The program is designed to give the trainer plenty of rest and spend no more than 45 minutes in the gym.

Its funny how many people think that multiple sets cause extra growth. . . .the same people forget that eating and resting are much more important.

Its amazing how many people dog the program when they have failed to try the program. . . . this is frustrating.

 

[Bulldog_10]

As a last remark. . .DC is an awesome program!! It has changed my views on training.

I no longer perform 9 to 12 sets per bodypart, but rather 1 set.

People are skeptical when they hear this, but I am the one who is putting on the lbs, while the rest of these jokers are overtrained under fed, and wasting their time performing countless number of sets that are unecessary.

As far as I am concerned, DC training is a gateway of turning into a big boy and the program will work for anyone who has had years of training experience.

People are always suggesting that DC training causes CNS burnout or overload. . . this type of statement is absolute rubbish!! The program is designed to give the trainer plenty of rest and spend no more than 45 minutes in the gym.

Its funny how many people think that multiple sets cause extra growth. . . .the same people forget that eating and resting are much more important.

Its amazing how many people dog the program when they have failed to try the program. . . . this is frustrating.

I admit, I haven't tried the program, but I don't think i dog it. I wouldn't try a program I don't believe in...and this program doesn't strike me as something I'd want to try.

And when people say CNS "burnout," it has nothing to do with the amount of rest the program allows. It's more of an overadaptation of the CNS to the intensity and volume of the routine.

 

[sk*]

Too many people, including me, have had good results with his training methods so it is simply foolish to bash it.

It works, PERIOD.

-sk

 

[Bulldog_10]

right

 

[IronLion]

this thread doesn't have to be an argument, DC is a legit training style but it is not the right style for everyone.

I am interseted to hear from the guys that are DC advocates what their training history was before DC and what their pre and post stats are, I am wondering what type of body works best with this style, it seems to be ectomorph and hardgainer types that do very well with this...am I right or wrong?

A funny story: I come from a high volume and intensity olympic based training background and I got very big and very strong with this type of training. My training partner came from a very DC type background and he also got very big and very strong. The main difference is that when we started training westside together I looked at him after a week or so and was like this shit is easy...you barely do anything and you get stronger. He was like this is fucking crazy I have never done this kind of volume in my life.

 

[sk*]

right

Even from your very first post on DC's training you criticized it in a very negative manner, but you have to realize many people have had good results and that holds more credibility than "bulldog" saying he doesn't like the concepts because he took phys ed classes.

-sk

 

[sk*]

this thread doesn't have to be an argument, DC is a legit training style but it is not the right style for everyone.

I am interseted to hear from the guys that are DC advocates what their training history was before DC and what their pre and post stats are, I am wondering what type of body works best with this style, it seems to be ectomorph and hardgainer types that do very well with this...am I right or wrong?

A funny story: I come from a high volume and intensity olympic based training background and I got very big and very strong with this type of training. My training partner came from a very DC type background and he also got very big and very strong. The main difference is that when we started training westside together I looked at him after a week or so and was like this shit is easy...you barely do anything and you get stronger. He was like this is fucking crazy I have never done this kind of volume in my life.

I used DC's methods for about 5months of which most was cutting, I managed to drop bodyfat and gain some strength.

-sk

 

[Bulldog_10]

Even from your very first post on DC's training you criticized it in a very negative manner, but you have to realize many people have had good results and that holds more credibility than "bulldog" saying he doesn't like the concepts because he took phys ed classes.

-sk

LOL...this ain't computers there big guy.

I think DC's training program is based on sound theories, but I don't think it looks at the big picture. And I've taken enough "phys. ed." classes to know what's best for me...and have plenty of knowledge of what a sound training program consists of. This is not a training program that I would recommend to anyone based on what I've learned...which is a whole hell of a lot more than you.

 

[sk*]

LOL...this ain't computers there big guy.

I think DC's training program is based on sound theories, but I don't think it looks at the big picture. And I've taken enough "phys. ed." classes to know what's best for me...and have plenty of knowledge of what a sound training program consists of. This is not a training program that I would recommend to anyone based on what I've learned...which is a whole hell of a lot more than you.

Good that I won't be taking your recommendations, since DC worked very well for me.

-sk

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

Let's take it easy guys. Bulldog is humbly declining DC's methods, but he's agreeing that they do work. In his opinion, it's not an optimal way to go about training. If you feel otherwise, sk*, then so be it. Let's just remember, we're all here to help one another - right? Bulldog seems to know his shit, and I'm not doubting you do either sk*, but if he doesn't feel DC's way is the best, then let that be. It's all good.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Let's take it easy guys. Bulldog is humbly declining DC's methods, but he's agreeing that they do work. In his opinion, it's not an optimal way to go about training. If you feel otherwise, sk*, then so be it. Let's just remember, we're all here to help one another - right? Bulldog seems to know his shit, and I'm not doubting you do either sk*, but if he doesn't feel DC's way is the best, then let that be. It's all good.

 

[Debaser]

I think I used to act similarly to this and maybe that's why I pissed a few people off in the beginning.

You can be adamant about a program, but remember to always attack arguments and not flame the person making them.

 

[Punisher007]

Just wanted to add that I'm on DC's program right now and I'm loving it. I'm sure I'm not doing everything right, but I'm trying to learn more about the program everyday so that I can improve my training.

One of the big differences I find in DCs program is that I look forward to each workout because I try to beat my previous reps/weights...and I've been doing that for the past few weeks.

NOTE: I'm also taking test/eq/fina right now so those might play a minor role in my progress

 

[Bulldog_10]

Just wanted to add that I'm on DC's program right now and I'm loving it. I'm sure I'm not doing everything right, but I'm trying to learn more about the program everyday so that I can improve my training.

One of the big differences I find in DCs program is that I look forward to each workout because I try to beat my previous reps/weights...and I've been doing that for the past few weeks.

NOTE: I'm also taking test/eq/fina right now so those might play a minor role in my progress

LOL! Good to hear bro!

 

[louden_swain]

Thats the great thing about this program!! You look forward to breaking records each workout instead of looking forward to performing the standard 3 sets of 10 or 5 sets of 5 reps at a fixed weight. Why not take it beyond this?? If you stop at 5 reps, what if you can really get 7 or 8?

Just yesterday, I was performing barbell curls with 150lbs. . .I was able to get 7 reps the first try. . then I put down the barbell for 10 seconds, then I picked it up and pumped out 3 additional reps. . .then the negative on the last rep.

After this type of work, my biceps were engorged with blood and it felf that my arms were on fire after one set!! I knew my job was done and there was no need to perform another useless set. . .it was unecessary since the damage had been done.

I can see why so many trainers get bored with their program. For one, they are working with fixed numbers, secondly they are training way too many days out of the week, third they are not rotating their exercises, and fourth they are using more work sets than necessary.

Trainers are always stopping at 5, 8, or 10 reps. . .when they reach these numbers they put down the barbell and thats it. Why not explore your true strength and challenge your real abilities?? Because people are affraid of pain and the guts it takes to survive a set. If I say, I am shooting for 6 reps. . .I really mean 9 reps. . . .if someone shouts at me to perform 2 more reps. . .I will prove to them I am capable of pumping out 4 additional reps.

It is clear who has the determination and drive in the gym. People who are using fixed numbers, excess number of sets, and too many training days are not growing. . .they are wasting their time. Trainers are unwilling to make things simple for themselves and this is a shame.

I like everything about this program and everything makes so much sense to me. Since I have followed this type of training program, I have put on 8lbs of lean muscle since february. Anyway, a lot of rambling here, but I just wanted to praise the program once again!

 

[louden_swain]

I have to admit. . .before I came across DC training. . .my gains in strength and size were stagnant between 1999 and 2001. I had been following standard bodybuilding programs for years and I was reluctant to try anything I wasn't familar with. At first, I thought I had reached my natural limit, but I soon discovered that I was wrong.

Prior to DC training, I was using 3 to 4 exercises per bodypart. Gains were hard to come by, but they came at a slow pace. I was tired and was losing enthusiasm in the gym. At one point, I thought about quitting bodybuilding and moving on to something else.

In 2002/2003 I came across DC training and read through everything and studied the methods for hours. . .yes hours!! Everything made sense, so I wanted to put the program through a test using me as a subject lol. After following the program for a couple of weeks, I noticed changes in strength and size. It seems as if I had busted through a plateau. My desire and passion for training started to rebuild. Outside the gym my appetite increased and I felt that my body was recuperating much faster than the previous years.

Now, my interest in training, nutrition, and rest is at an all time high since I came across the DC program.

 

[bigp3]

I am about to begin working with him... Hope it is okay that I post that.. But I am looking foreward to it in a major way. I will post pics from when I start with him and a year from that time... So it will be a while down the road, but I am confident after doing some research on his methods that I am going to get great results.

As for my training history,, I have pretty much always done the standard 8 to 12 sets per b.p.. I have been training off and on for almost 10 years. Currently I am around 250 lbs at 11 or 12% BF. I am looking to push close to 3 bill in a year and a half if I can't get there sooner.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

bulldogg:::Yes, as I've said before...you will gain doing high intensity all the time...but your body will also overadapt...
you will gain from pretty much any type of training program, but after a while, if you don't change it up, it becomes less and less efficient.

Doggcrapp:: really what science are you pulling this out from? Your own? Lets see --hmmm adaption? Well volume is finite so you can do up to 999billion sets if you want to attempt that but what good is that if it takes you 3 months to recover. Intensity is finite--how many intensity techniques are there? five? 10? 15? thats finite. Exercises? how many chest exercises are there? 15? 25? Finite. So whats infinite? The load is infinite and that is adaption. If the load always is going up you always have to adapt to it! You guys are so stuck on "you must do volume" PROVE IT TO ME! So if Johnny slacker does 30 sets and Frankie Hardcore does 4 sets--Johnny slacker is going to have better gains? Bullshit! Lets bottom line this ok--(powerlifting notwithstanding where someone has to keep their food intake down to stay in a weight class)---When is the last time you saw a person who could bench 450 for 20 reps, deadlift 650 for 15 and squat 550 for 20 who was small? Cuz I sure as hell havent! Does that have to do anything with volume? NO--- Well if you do your 10-20 set workouts per bodypart once a week and it takes you 7 years to get to those levels and my guys are training bodyparts 3 times every 10-11 days and it takes them 3 years to get to those levels--my guys are obviously gaining more than twice as fast as you are. Everybody puts all thinking in "this workout today" what can i do to annihilate myself in this workout today that im doing. The thinking should be ok how can I get to point B from point A the fastest! One or two hardcore sets of squats with higher reps and shit heavy weight is going to make your legs grow. Whats 7 sets of squats, 4 sets of leg presses, 4 sets of hacks and 4 sets of leg extensions going to do? Make it so you wont recover for 10 days. Meanwhile my guys have trained legs 3 times in those 10 days and are soaring right past you.

Honestly bulldogg I actually want this. I dont want everyone jumping on the DC bandwagon. I want you and other lifters to keep doing the high volume stuff for a reason. Because my guys are going to FLY right by you and your going to have to admit in the future you fucked up. Is that cocky of me to say? Yea and I have about 500 bodybuilders online and 30 or so personal online trainees that have me incredibly confident of my methods. So ignore all the people that are gaining like no tommorrow--ignore all the pictures posted on the net from people ive trained--ignore all the people posting on the various threads and keep doing your thing. Whats hilarious is one of the best things to happen was I was able to use the net and message boards as my personal lab experiment. Ive had incredible success with people locally in person but before i put this out 1.5 years ago widescale on Animals message board--I really didnt know how it would effect the masses. Well the local guys Ive trained have been going at this for years and years now and some of the people on animals board have been going at this since the beginning of my first post too--and they are all still gaining so please inform me when all these gains are supposed to come to some sort of magical halt due to "adaption" and "need to do volume"? Most of my trainees are people with average to subpar genetics who I make into the best bodybuilders in their gym and their area but now because of word of mouth Im getting genetically elite bodybuilders and I can turn those guys into superfreaks! Im online training about 6 nationally ranked competitors now so lets see what happens shall we? How many people do i have to put on 40-60lbs of muscle on --in their first year with me for some people to get the drift? See I dont understand human nature sometimes. Personally I would feel like a complete idiot--if 500 people were on a message board saying "HMB sucks" but I come on there and tell them "its the greatest thing since sliced bread!"--Theres 4 guys on chad nichols board with pics, theres a 113 THOUSAND view post on animals board with everyone and their mother on it, and theirs some huge posts on this board and yet you still can sit there and say "well it will work for some but will stop working soon"---good luck to you

 

[louden_swain]

See. . . DC. . .you always bring up good points. . .thats how you have convinced me that the program is legit, because you are able to offer rational well-thought ideas on training.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Dogg crapp...I think you got me wrong...I'm not bashing your program dude, so don't bash me. If you want to exhange ideas, great...I'm all for it. But if you're going to pull this shit, then forget it.

You base your program on sound ideas, yes...but only a few ideas. In my opinion (along with MANY other training professionals probably with alot more experience than you, and that train alot more people than you) linear intensification is one of the most common mistakes in training.

I'm not saying your program doesn't work, because from what I hear...it does. I'm just saying that it's not for me, and I wouldn't advise anyone to follow it because when I become a trainer/or strength coach, I will be training athletes...and they will need to do volume, speed work, etc...they can't just keep moving ever increasing loads.

One more thing...I will never believe in any program that says that it is the say all end all in training. EVERY other training program I've studied admits that there are other ways to train, everything will give gains, and their program is not for everyone. And since people make great gains on many different programs...I believe this.

What are your credentials by the way? Not asking that in a negative way...I'm just curious. Do you have a website or anything? aside from the one in the sticky.

 

[Bulldog_10]

I am about to begin working with him... Hope it is okay that I post that.. But I am looking foreward to it in a major way. I will post pics from when I start with him and a year from that time... So it will be a while down the road, but I am confident after doing some research on his methods that I am going to get great results.

As for my training history,, I have pretty much always done the standard 8 to 12 sets per b.p.. I have been training off and on for almost 10 years. Currently I am around 250 lbs at 11 or 12% BF. I am looking to push close to 3 bill in a year and a half if I can't get there sooner.

Well definitely keep us updated. And one thing that I can already see that you've been doing wrong is that you've been in the 8-12 rep range for as long as "always" is. You gotta drop the reps and up the intensity every now and again. But I guess you've committed to DC, so we'll see what he does for you. Seems like you'll make good gains when you start a new program...good luck bro.

 

[casualbb]

I'd like to weigh in for a sec.

DC is great as a hypertrophy program. I think that for sheer muscle growth, progressive load and frequent workouts are all you really need. DC does this, HST does this, etc.

But that tends to ignore all the other strength factors. Stuff like dynamic speed work, varying rep ranges, higher volume to induce fatigue and neural adaptation...these things are all ignored in a pure hypertrophy program.

I'd never say that the DC program doesn't cause growth because it obviously does. But if an athlete is looking for performance rather than sheer bodybuilding size I'd never recommend it. Is that fair?

-casual

 

[louden_swain]

And one thing that I can already see that you've been doing wrong is that you've been in the 8-12 rep range for as long as "always" is. You gotta drop the reps and up the intensity every now and again.

How can 8 to 12 reps not be intense?

I am convinced that you are one of these people who like fixed reps. When you say you will peform a set of 5 reps. . .thats when you will stop even if you can get an additional 2 reps. That is not intense what so ever.

 

[Bulldog_10]

How can 8 to 12 reps not be intense?

I am convinced that you are one of these people who like fixed reps. When you say you will peform a set of 5 reps. . .thats when you will stop even if you can get an additional 2 reps. That is not intense what so ever.

I didn't say it can't be intense...but don't you think that using a weight that you can only do 2-3 times would be more intense? I know I can lift a heavier weight for 2-3 reps than I can for 8-12.

And I guess you can say that I'm one of "those people" that likes fixed reps. The way I look at it, if I'm doing 8-12 reps on a set...and I can only do 7, the weight is too heavy, so I lower it a bit...and If I can get 13, it's too light, so I up it. Until I get to the perfect weight that I can do somewhere in the 8-12 range.

Then after a few weeks of this, I move onto a different rep range.

I don't know why you guys are taking all this personally.

 

[Bulldog_10]

I'd like to weigh in for a sec.

DC is great as a hypertrophy program. I think that for sheer muscle growth, progressive load and frequent workouts are all you really need. DC does this, HST does this, etc.

But that tends to ignore all the other strength factors. Stuff like dynamic speed work, varying rep ranges, higher volume to induce fatigue and neural adaptation...these things are all ignored in a pure hypertrophy program.

I'd never say that the DC program doesn't cause growth because it obviously does. But if an athlete is looking for performance rather than sheer bodybuilding size I'd never recommend it. Is that fair?

-casual

Thank you!

 

[louden_swain]

I'd like to weigh in for a sec.
But that tends to ignore all the other strength factors. Stuff like dynamic speed work, varying rep ranges, higher volume to induce fatigue and neural adaptation...these things are all ignored in a pure hypertrophy program.

I'd never say that the DC program doesn't cause growth because it obviously does. But if an athlete is looking for performance rather than sheer bodybuilding size I'd never recommend it. Is that fair?

-casual

I think this is reasonable. . . for example, right now my squat routine includes an alternation between heavy workouts and light speed workouts (10 sets of 2 reps).

For now, I am not following DC exactly, but I have customized a program that includes some speed work and a lot of accessory work such as:

good mornings
stiff leg deadlifts
wide stance hip chain suspended squats
leg extensions

I am training for both size and strength. .for me there is a close relationship between the two.

 

[Debaser]

One set per body part just doesn't seem like enough of a stimulus for hypertrophy, or strength gain. I'd think about using that system for strength maintenance maybe.

Now you're saying you wouldn't advise it because of training athletes. Who ever said that this was a program for training gymnasts or sprinters or whatever?

Most guys just want to get bigger and stronger. That's who this program is aimed at. If you want to be a powerlifter, do Westside. If you want to be an olympic lifter, do whatever. No one ever said these were the goals of the program.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Now you're saying you wouldn't advise it because of training athletes. Who ever said that this was a program for training gymnasts or sprinters or whatever?

Most guys just want to get bigger and stronger. That's who this program is aimed at. If you want to be a powerlifter, do Westside. If you want to be an olympic lifter, do whatever. No one ever said these were the goals of the program.

Yes...I actually said that before I read through the program, I was just going on what DJ said originally in the thread.

And I know that the point of this program is to put on sheer size, that's why i admit that it works for that, but I, personally, would never recommend it to anyone I will train (athletes).

And I do believe that this program can only work for a limited amount of time...I'd love to see the results of following this program in the long term. And I'm NOT saying that negatively...I really want to know.

 

[Debaser]

Here are 4 of the people he has trained (he has other records posted around but these are the ones I have off hand):

)188 to 260(2.5 years)

2)172 to 254 (3 years)

3)208 to 261(clean! genetic mesomorph 1 year)

4)218 to 275 (cut his juice in half, doubled his protein, showed him how to train correctly-2 years)

These are all at the same or less bodyfat.

 

[louden_swain]

DC has also posted up some pics a couple of months ago. . . hes a big boy (around 280lbs).

 

[Debaser]

300 actually

 

[MOD]

Trevor Smith is around 385-400lbs but you hardly ever hear about BFT. Maybe it because his program doesn't work too well for normal people? maybe it does because he opened up his own gym devoted to BFT. If DC was 200lbs would his program be as popular as it is now? probably not. what I'm saying is a program's effectivity shouldn't be determined by the size of the creator but rather by the results of the users. and DC's ways clearly work. out of curiousity though, how many people here have tried BFT or what are your thoughts about the program?

 

[Debaser]

I believe DC is good friends with Trevor Smith, or something of the sort. I agree that the size of the creator doesn't necessarily mean the program is good. But something to consider is that DC does not have great genetics, nor has he done high gear dosages. But it's kinda irrelevent anyway, the results of all the other people speak for themselves.

 

[IronLion]

Debasser, how similar is DC's program to the one Dorian made famous?

 

[Debaser]

I'd say the main similarity is the very low volume coupled with high intensity. The main difference is that DC has higher frequency, thus allowing you to grow at a faster rate.