cutting without bulking? and other queries :)

[wyst]

Thank you for all your responses

I want to say, before I pick up on any specific points, the training I am discussing here is part of a 'trial run' recovery/maintenance exercise for me. I would be eating larger quantities of food (balanced around 40:40:20) and re-framing my weight goals for weight maintenance rather than loss. I am hoping that the additional training will justify for me the increase in food and that it may even teach me how to take pride in developing a stronger form. I have reached (or perhaps I should say, returned to) a point where I WANT a healthy perspective and I know that the only way to achieve this is to engage healthier behaviours. I wish it could work the other way around - it would be far less difficult - but it rarely does.

Re: lasix. Firstly, I really don't take it as often as you seem to think. I probably take it less than a lot of ppl here in fact. At most I take it 3x in a week, more often only once or twice. However, I am still going to make sure that my lab results give me the all clear before going ahead with any new training plans. I re-scheduled my dr. appt. for this coming wednesday, so I'll have blood work done then and will find out the results, hopefully, before next weekend. If my potassium is low then I will improve it next week and have another test done to ensure it is back within range. I will then continue to have weekly/fortnightly checks so that it stays that way.
One thing I am curious about though is why, when so many BBs take lasix, my use of it makes you think I'm not eligible for lifting. How come it's more ok for them to use lasix than it is for me? The level of potassium/sodium in your blood is not correlative with body mass




Maybe 8.5" sounds smaller than what it actually is? Your average person would perhaps think me "slim", but by no means would they think me sickly or emaciated. I don't have 'anorexic' stamped on my forehead .... or my bicep for that matter . I think some of you must think me to be far smaller than I actually am and I think that that, in turn, makes you think I am less physically healthy and capable than I actually am. I have half a mind to show you a photo so that you can see for yourself

It's funny but you guys actually make me feel embarrassed to be thought of as "too thin" when, for years, I have strived to be thought of as such. This is a good thing. A weird thing but a good thing

Thanks for your patience.
love mini

p.s Ok, so poor Courtney didn't get a very good response, did she?! But what d'ya think about ... Madonna? (and, just to warn you, I may be puny but I'll still whup your sorry ass if you breathe one bad word about her - I'm an obsessed fan )

I took out my tape measure and checked out how big 8.5 inches is, just to be fair. It's tiny. It's not healthy, that I can imagine. I try to be open minded, but it's pretty hard given the stats I've seen published around here in the past little while. I think you should post your picture. I really do. And I think you should also get your BF checked too, and post what that is. If I missed it before, sorry.

Maybe I'm missing something from an earlier post, but unless you are taking lasix for some real medical reason, it does make you ineligeable for bodybuilding, because it could easily kill you. There are bodybuilders who take it to cut the water in their bodies, but I think you'll find it rarely shows up on the women's board. A quick search on the men's board finds that in fact many references to it are to how it can kill you, how it can actually really cut your strength, and how people wouldn't take it. The guys who take it tend to be huge -- well over 200 pounds, with tons of water weight to shed before a show they have been fine tuning their bodies for for months. Not to sound sarcastic, but I really doubt that is the case, here. If you are small enough to have 8.5 inch arms, you really don't need to cut your fat or water, as far as a I can tell.

Good for you if you are going to rejigger your diet. I don't mean to sound negative as far as your goals go, but even a casual read of the first post on this thread is pretty frightening. IN my opinion, unless there is some other pressing need, get the hell off the lasix if you are going to be working out. It makes our 300 pounders weaker, and they have plenty of strength to spare. You don't.

Spend a week or two on your new diet before you start lifting, otherwise the shock to your system is going to be something fierce. I don't know if the ppl on here can remember the first time they started lifting, but I bet most of them felt pretty awful for the next few days, and I bet most of them didn't have bodies reduced to such extremities. I'm sure it will be hard, but look at it as an investment. Eating now to be able to work out better (and non-fatally) in a week or two.

Madonna does have some nice arms- that much we can agree on.

Wyst

 

[mini_mouse]

Thanks for your replies again

About my eating - I did say I'd increase my diet accordingly. If you scan my last post again you'll see I acknowledged the need for that. I have maintained my present weight, give or take a few lbs fluctuation, since the new year, so I am confident that boosting my calorie intake a bit more will keep me on an even keel while I incorporate some light weight-training.

As for getting under a dr's supervision, my GP already knows about my history (ED, lasix et al.) and, when I see him this week, I'll tell him about my fitness plans. And then there's my therapist, who actually recommended I start doing a bit of exercise a couple of times a week. She thinks it will both help my mood (boosting endorphins) and give me the encouragement to improve my diet. And then there's also my consultant who keeps an eye on my weight, my bloods, squat tests and other such like. So, all in all, I am more than covered .

I'm just going to cut to the chase.
8.5" biceps on a grown woman = emaciated and I don't care how you try to sell it to me.

I'm a bit frustrated by this whole bicep issue though . I wish I never mentioned that stupid measurement because it appears to have distorted people's impression. I've attached a photo to this post so you can see for yourself. It's a yr and a half old so I look a little different now but I think my arms are basically the same.



Thin - yeah, I'd probably bump up my protein on training days, and maybe add in an extra portion of complex carb (new fixation: boiled bulgar wheat with splenda and cinnamon ).
And as for you being able to get your hands 'round your thighs: your thighs must be about the same size as my stupid biceps!


take care,
(not so) mini



[edit: oh shit, I didn't know it would show as an inline image!!]

 

[FitFossil]

I believe you don't have to add a lot of body fat while adding muscle. I've done it, and yes it was slow-going, but it can be done. (Granted I wasn't trying to add a LOT though.) Recovering from an ED myself, the thought of adding a lot more bf was not an option. (Of course this depends on your starting bf. If you're in the single digits, then adding muscle might be next to impossible.)

You DO, however, need to increase calories and nutrients sufficiently to accomodate training and muscle growth. You should be extra vigilant to keep increasing calories as you add lean mass, and that's just so you hold on to it. Warning, there may be times you feel "bulky" . DON'T let that scare you, and don't start on a drastic cutting spree. Once your body has attained sufficient lean mass (which isn't necessarily "big"), it will be more willing to drop bodyfat and keep it off.

The book Ripped 3, by Clarence Bass, talks about muscle gain with minimal or no fat gain. While Bass isn't the biggest BB, he's probably one of the leanest, and stays consistently lean. I don't follow this book by the letter, but there's a lot of good information I've applied to my lifestyle. BTW I think Madonna has some very fine arms!

Unless you have a medical condition and are under a doctor's supervision for Lasix, please don't take it. BB's typically use strong diuretics for competition only. Dehydration makes them EXTREMELY weak. Screwed up potassium levels can be deadly without warning.

 

[Gladiola]

Like in volume ppl like 10" arms to maybe 12"? But that is scary. So I wanna read some more first.

I don't know if it is too scary for me, but I'm thinking it'd be nice to have bigger arms to go with my big legs.

Cuz we all know how that nasty muscle stuff creeps up on you and attaches itself in unsightly heaps all over your body
Then it proceeds to SWELL in the most hideous manner and simply will not go away. Scary stuff indeed!

KBgrl - I agree on the Courtney Cox body. She doesn't have biceps, she has a humurus which attaches her radius & ulna to her shoulder.

Regarding those "Sculpt" or hi rep/low weight classes - search the women's board for BODYPUMP or BODY PUMP & you'll find info.

 

[Temple]

I think many times what we have is a communication problem when it comes to gaining fat while gaining muscle. That tends to be interpreted as getting pig fat which is not true and like you said there is the time factor - muscle faster means probably more fat gain, adding muscle slower means less fat gain. It also seems to me that we sometimes folks try to apply advanced principles to beginning bodies.

 

[fitnesschick_1]

Mini,
I'm encouraged by this step you are taking to want to build muscle I agree Madonna looks good too but Courtney Cox looks unhealthy imo and as she's gotten thinner the past couple of years she has aged in her face by 10 years to me. Anywho, I just wanted to say about Lasix I've read a TON of boards and the only time BB's take em is RIGHT before a comp to cut out any excess water and it IS dangerous and there have been BB's die from it. So it's just silly. Not necessary girl. Anyway I say don't do any cardio for now at all. Increase caloric intake and protein to healthy levels and start with basic arms movements (bicep curls, tricep pushdowns, etc). You should definately hire a personal trainer to teach you the basics and guide you. That will assure you are doing proper form. Don't be afraid of getting big! You won't build any muscle without eating food. I came from a similar mindset though I didn't have ED before I started lifting. I wanted to be thin and all and thought I"d get big eating lots of food and lifting heavy. But I learned that is just silly I eat more now and I lift heavy. I have gained lean body mass all while dropping 2 sizes since I began working out. BF% has also dropped. But I was packing on muscle. Also, hardbodygirl does have an AMAZING body and she only wears like a size 2 or 3. She's not BIG. But, ask her what she eats. She doesn't skimp and she lifts heavy. Her abs will take time to get. You'll have to build muscle. Don't worry about cutting. Good luck to you!

 

[Arioch]

Mini, if I may give a slightly different perspective.

My wife is only 5' tall, and at her last full competition weighed in at a huge (note sarcasm) 103 pounds. Her arms were 12.5 inches cold. She is not big by any stretch of the imagination, although she is quite muscular. When wearing normal clothing, the only way to easily tell that she has been lifting for 13 years is by the muscularture of her forearms. At her size, she avoids wearing blue or people will guestimate her height at "three apples high." It is quite possible for a women to make a significant change in body composition without getting "too big." My wife has done so, and, as a general rule, the only way to really tell is when she is wearing something skimpy.

Food is your friend.

I do not like Madonna either. Yes, I am adding this just to be annoying.

 

[KBgrl]

It's funny but you guys actually make me feel embarrassed to be thought of as "too thin" when, for years, I have strived to be thought of as such. This is a good thing. A weird thing but a good thing

bingo

 

[mini_mouse]

fitfossils writes:
I believe you don't have to add a lot of body fat while adding muscle. I've done it, and yes it was slow-going, but it can be done. (Granted I wasn't trying to add a LOT though.) Recovering from an ED myself, the thought of adding a lot more bf was not an option.

It's so reassuring to hear this, to know that it can be done Congratulations on your success! Have you found your sense of body image has improved since you started to channel your energies into weight training?

The book Ripped 3, by Clarence Bass, talks about muscle gain with minimal or no fat gain. While Bass isn't the biggest BB, he's probably one of the leanest, and stays consistently lean. I don't follow this book by the letter, but there's a lot of good information I've applied to my lifestyle. BTW I think Madonna has some very fine arms!

Thanks for the book recommendation - I'll check out the bookstore to see whether they have it in stock. I've also been looking up a few beginner's lifting exercises for biceps/triceps/delts and so will start out with those and see how I go. I'm glad you appreciate Madonna's arms too! Especially seeing as my previous mention of Courtney Cox went down like a pork chop in a synagogue I've seen her in concert for two of her world tours (1993 and 2001) and on both occassions she looked incredible!

Gladiola writes:
Regarding those "Sculpt" or hi rep/low weight classes - search the women's board for BODYPUMP or BODY PUMP & you'll find info.

Thanks for the tip - I'll do a search.

temple01 writes:
...there is the time factor - muscle faster means probably more fat gain, adding muscle slower means less fat gain. It also seems to me that we sometimes folks try to apply advanced principles to beginning bodies.

It's true that I have the tendency to be rather impulsive once I've got an idea in my head but I realise that with something like this I do have to go slowly. Not only will it probably not be healthy for me, physically, to throw myself into lifting with wild abandon, but it won't be beneficial to my mentality either. I'll let you know what comes of my fitness assessment when I get gym membership - hopefully the trainer there will be able to help me find a schedule that meets my needs while taking everything into consideration.

fitnesschick_1 writes:
Anyway I say don't do any cardio for now at all. Increase caloric intake and protein to healthy levels and start with basic arms movements (bicep curls, tricep pushdowns, etc).

Yes, this is what I've been planning on I won't do any cardio apart from, possibly, one or two pump/martial art classes a week and I'm going to be aiming for a 40:40:20 balance to my diet. My calories will go up too although I am going to push them up gradually so I can adjust to the increase. The basic arm moves I have so far are curls, pushdowns, pressups, deadlifts, "side lifts" (I don't know the proper name for them? i.e. dumbells held in surrender position --> dumbells above head and down again...). I'll probably add in 4 or 5 more exercises and will start with 3 sets of 12 for each. Does that sound reasonable?
Thank you so much for your encouragement .

Arioch writes:
Food is your friend.

Indeed it is

 

[fitnesschick_1]

I think mini is slowly on her way to a healthy recovery I know it's not that "simple" but I'm happy you want to put on muscle. You told us your 40, 40, 20 ratio which I think is a good ratio. How about telling us your planned caloric intake? I know you prob didn't do this on puprose before, cuz it's low and you don't want to get flamed. I don't ask this so you can get flamed just want to be safe ya know. Don't want us all telling you to do all this body pumpin' only to have you pass out at the gym or anything.

And, one more thing. I know you say you only do lasix once or twixe a week - sometimes three times. Before you start this program can you make a commitment to stop it completely? Please just this small step for right now??
If you feel REALLY bloated and are pms'ing or somehting you can use dandelion root or a natural dieuretic and also drinking lots of water a day will help too.

Cool? cool!

Now eat some grub and get yo ass to the gym sista!