Compound movements and core strength

[Shades McCool]

I wanted to get everyone's opinion on how well doing big movements such as squat, deadlift, bench, push press ect strengthening your core. My abs are pretty dang hard yet I do not do much if any iso ab work. What does everyone think?

 

[mm107]

Abs get killed deadlifting for me.

As well as chinups + rows.

I dont work abs much either even tho i should.

Moving your body through space and having your body stabalize itself really works your core.

 

[BiggT]

I actually think that compound movements, done standing up (not bench, incline etc) and without a belt are the best way to develop a functionally strong core.

Balancing a weight overhead, doing overhead squats, squatting (front and back) without a belt, deadlifting, goodmornings etc etc all done raw activate the core in the way it was meant to function.

Ulf Timmerman (East German shot putter and 88' Olympic gold medalist) once said the East Germans took ab training and core strength very seriously and you could not transfer any of your power to a throw if you could not activate the core. He said all squatting and overhead lifting was performed without a belt. He then said situps weren't done because they are less specific to throwing than eating cheesecake.

I always liked that comment, lol.....but I find the best way to get a strong core is to lift while vertical and without any support gear.

 

[Shades McCool]

Yeah I feel the same way. I actually don't like doing iso ab exercises and will probably stick to the bare minimum on it.

 

[Tweakle]

ab 'workouts' make me point and laugh, but adding in a couple of sets of heavy decline situps with a db on your chest or 45's behind your head will have a long term positive effect on your pulling and squatting. Try doing them after deads next time, or squats.. just once a week is all it takes for a set or 2.

 

[mm107]

ab 'workouts' make me point and laugh, but adding in a couple of sets of heavy decline situps with a db on your chest or 45's behind your head will have a long term positive effect on your pulling and squatting. Try doing them after deads next time, or squats.. just once a week is all it takes for a set or 2.

YEA def, also, like tweakle said, put it behind yourhead not on your abs on the decline. SICK.

Hold for 5s and come back up. Bet you it will kill. Kills my lower back too. Love knowing where i need to improve =]

Shades, i know me and u are like almost the same in alot of stuff. How old are you? Thinking of doing any competitions ever? Ur ass ever in NY ill make sure to treat ya to a free week at the gym i go to so we can bust ass there.

 

[Protobuilder]

ab 'workouts' make me point and laugh

LoL

I’d say my core is stronger now from doing all free-weight, unsupported lifts like T mentioned. Even doing something like chins is night and day from sitting down, locking your legs in place w/ some machine. If you work through heavy front squatting, overhead supports, etc., your core should be pretty damn solid. Well, that and using Suzan Sommer’s ab cruncher machine.

Re: overhead supports. I think they’re a fantastic core strengthener. Similar to OH squats but you can use more weight. You just lock it out in the OH position, walk out of the rack a bit, and statically hold using delts/traps/core. Also helps w/ confidence in putting up big OH presses.

 

[mm107]

LoL

I’d say my core is stronger now from doing all free-weight, unsupported lifts like T mentioned. Even doing something like chins is night and day from sitting down, locking your legs in place w/ some machine. If you work through heavy front squatting, overhead supports, etc., your core should be pretty damn solid. Well, that and using Suzan Sommer’s ab cruncher machine.

Re: overhead supports. I think they’re a fantastic core strengthener. Similar to OH squats but you can use more weight. You just lock it out in the OH position, walk out of the rack a bit, and statically hold using delts/traps/core. Also helps w/ confidence in putting up big OH presses.

Basically, OH hold?

Im going to start doing some overhead sqautting to improve my core. Figure, on WEDS, since its a light leg day already i can do OH squats. (madcow's 5x5)

 

[BiggT]

Yeah, MM...overhead holds and jerk supports are great core work. If you have a power rack that is tall enough, which would usually mean one without a 'top' you can set the pins so that you can safely dump the bar. You can really overload your whole body and support A LOT more than you can actually press or jerk.

From your vids, I think you lift with bumper plates, in which case you don't need the safties, just dump 'em when you're done.

 

[Illuminati]

Yeah, MM...overhead holds and jerk supports are great core work. If you have a power rack that is tall enough, which would usually mean one without a 'top' you can set the pins so that you can safely dump the bar. You can really overload your whole body and support A LOT more than you can actually press or jerk.

From your vids, I think you lift with bumper plates, in which case you don't need the safties, just dump 'em when you're done.

i dont think they are bumper plates. I have used those plates before (when I was in the military) and they are just rubber coated. it helps to prevent the plates from making a mess due to rust, and prevents them from chipping

 

[BiggT]

i dont think they are bumper plates. I have used those plates before (when I was in the military) and they are just rubber coated. it helps to prevent the plates from making a mess due to rust, and prevents them from chipping

In that case, MM, don't dump the weights, lol

 

[fortunatesun]

I'm going to disagree with some of you guys. I think one of the more valuable lessons I learned from the basic Westside template was ab work. They do theirs twice a week, not as an add on but aggressively as an equal part of the program. OK, it's not strictly ab/iso as there's more to your core than that but anyway...
Not that I considered myself 'weak' in this area, but as I was committed to do the program I wanted to give an honest effort. In my case, it truly makes a difference in several ways.
As your numbers go up, you need to be stronger to support the added weight. With compound lifts, all electrical messages are are transferred to outlying bodyparts through this region. If it is untrained, your CNS is going to be inefficient.
True, squats, DL, etc. will strengthen your torso. I think it's also true that ab work is assistence for these same lifts and will, in turn, stengthen them. It will also allow you to maintain the integrity of your lift much longer.
It makes sense in terms of injury prevention. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. As your numbers go up, you need to be prepared to deal with the added stress.
Lastly, in terms of general fitness there's been great payback. Without a doubt it's one of the reasons I have more energy now both during my workouts and during the rest of the day. Nowadays,if I'm tired/rushed for time I may skip them, but not often and not twice in a row. I guess it's just more satisfying to me than rack curls.

 

[Sassy69]

As many of you saw (and helped!) in a post I put up last week, I've done BB style lifting most of my life and much of it when "girls didn't lift in gyms". I didn't get my squat form correct until I trained w/ some PL guys a few yrs ago. Since then for various reason I developed some soft tissue injuries which really compromised my lower back & left psoas. More recently with heavy lifting I overworked my rotator cuffs which in turn caused my back to compensate & develop some pretty significant muscle spasms. So I went back to basics. And what suggestions did I get? Squat, Press, Pull. So I do the following 3x/week (a bit sporadic w/ travel right now):

- cardio warm up
- dynamic warm up
- static stretch
- Overhead squat warm up
- squat (vary w/ front, back, etc)
- press (DB or bar)
- pull (Hammer strength or cable row, DB row or BB row)

Will probably incorporate DLs again in the future

Ab work being primarily fitball & cable crunches & Needsize decline abs.

I'm primarily gauging my progress w/ the stability of the overhead squats. I also note that the ATF squats after the dynamic warmup are much easier on my psoas and much easier post workout. NOrmally I'm all locked up & generally go back to my usual stiffness in the hamstring / glute.

So am I sold on core stability & strength training - hell ya. I also think that some ab work won't kill ya.

 

[Illuminati]

I'm going to disagree with some of you guys. I think one of the more valuable lessons I learned from the basic Westside template was ab work. They do theirs twice a week, not as an add on but aggressively as an equal part of the program. OK, it's not strictly ab/iso as there's more to your core than that but anyway...
Not that I considered myself 'weak' in this area, but as I was committed to do the program I wanted to give an honest effort. In my case, it truly makes a difference in several ways.
As your numbers go up, you need to be stronger to support the added weight. With compound lifts, all electrical messages are are transferred to outlying bodyparts through this region. If it is untrained, your CNS is going to be inefficient.
True, squats, DL, etc. will strengthen your torso. I think it's also true that ab work is assistence for these same lifts and will, in turn, stengthen them. It will also allow you to maintain the integrity of your lift much longer.
It makes sense in terms of injury prevention. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. As your numbers go up, you need to be prepared to deal with the added stress.

I've been using WSB for the past 3 years, and I think that the ab work is overrated. I have never found it to be of a benefit to me. you dont necessarily need to have strong abs, but you need to know how to be able to keep your abs tight and pushed against your belt during your lifts. this is what gives you more stability in your core to allow you to handle heavier weight.

 

[Maks]

Ulf Timmerman (East German shot putter and 88' Olympic gold medalist) once said the East Germans took ab training and core strength very seriously and you could not transfer any of your power to a throw if you could not activate the core. He said all squatting and overhead lifting was performed without a belt. He then said situps weren't done because they are less specific to throwing than eating cheesecake.

Hehe ... to see that name in a post here really brings up old memories ... thanks BiggT !!

 

[mm107]

I like to work my abs, but i dont over do it. Only because they do get alot of work stabalizing.

I really liked the idea of the holds. Gonna try them, maybe even today.

 

[fortunatesun]

I've been using WSB for the past 3 years, and I think that the ab work is overrated. I have never found it to be of a benefit to me. you dont necessarily need to have strong abs, but you need to know how to be able to keep your abs tight and pushed against your belt during your lifts. this is what gives you more stability in your core to allow you to handle heavier weight.

I can't argue with the validity of your method. It's a well known truth and Simmons himself has written on the need to develop strong obliques and erectors in the support of this.
However, I believe there are several limitations to relying solely on pushing out your abs. This may be more true for someone like myself than for you. Bracing your midsection works fine if you can maintain a rigid torso. That's acceptable if you're training for competition lifts. This is not possible with non-standard objects or movements (and most athletic skills)that force you to abandon rigidity. Where, then, is your back-up system? Even with SQ/DL you need extra assistance at the extremes: for instance going past parallel on the squat or when you bend back to lock out your DL. Then there's the unequipped lifter. His or her training needs are going to be different because they won't be using belts and suits to support maximal loads.
You may be gifted with abs of steel, which I already believed you are from watching your videos. It's never where you break. I think I am also somewhat gifted in natural torso strength. In my case, working hard isn't wasted but rather it elevates this resource to my advantage.