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Can boxers punch thru boards ?
- Thread starter Yarg!
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Master_Rebkee
New member
Considering the fact that boxers use hands all the time.... yes they can most probably punch through boards. I never knew Ali had a lighter bag either. Figured that after punching all them other boxers a standard bag would be fine for him.
Big Rick Rock
istrator
It's your wrists that take a beating over time. Punching guys on the elbows and top of the head during fights or sparring...
I'm sure a boxer could punch thru a board... But why? "Boards don't hit back" -Bruce Lee
-BRR
I'm sure a boxer could punch thru a board... But why? "Boards don't hit back" -Bruce Lee
-BRR
Master_Rebkee
New member
It is very easy to break a board. Only once did I ever have trouble and that was due to all the knots in the board itself.
Kane Fan said:
Of course any person with some form of strength can break through a board and breaking it by accident has nothing to do with boxers. But the question asked was if boxers can punch through boards(plural) and he also referred to breaking them as easily as a karate master could like they show on t.v. Breaking multiple boards is what martial artists test for true strength and focus and compared to a black belt in karate, a boxer would more than likely not break nearly as many boards. It's not what they train to do.
asianlover
New member
yes
Djimbe
New member
Big Rick Rock said:
Actually , boards DO "Hit Back" after a fashion ...
the entire PURPOSE of Breaking is Conditioning the Knuckles , Hands , and Wrists . Thasts why yoiu START with one Boaard , and gradually work your wayu up to quite a few .
Its also WHY its referred to as a "Boxers Fracture" , and not a "Karate Fracture" -
Because BOXERS baby their hands and ultimately weaken them over time by using Wraps and Gloves all the time , then get in a Fight on the steet and their bodies cant withstand the amount of force they can generate without a Crutch .
dgatehouse
New member
I think a boxer can break a board without a problem. Punching through one board takes very little skill. Now, resting your finger tips on the board and then punching it takes skill and punching bricks takes skill. One board though? Come on, little kids can do that. 
trez
New member
Djimbe said:
I'm not sure if you've ever trained for boxing, if you have it doesn't sound like you've done it right... I'd never put on full gear unless I actually had a bout, most training was done just with wraps (sometimes gloves) but not both. I wouldn't consider my hands 'babied', but my training could have differed from the norm?
My two cents anyway.
Peace
Trez
Djimbe
New member
I should have said "And/Or" , youre Correct , but look to the Gym (this IS a BBing/PLing website , after all) Look at the ppl that weaken themselves by using Wraps all the time I have seen guys using Wraps to do 60 lb dumbell Curls ! When youre DDeadlifting 800+ , thats one thing , but you know what Im on about !
Using them all the time creates an Inherent Weakness over time . Also not hitting anything HARD leaves one Unprepared for when you DO hit something hard . Theres actually somethign TO the Breaking thing , as well as Variable Bag Hitting ala CMA . over trime your hands do calcify and Strengthen , and your Bones get more dense .
Using them all the time creates an Inherent Weakness over time . Also not hitting anything HARD leaves one Unprepared for when you DO hit something hard . Theres actually somethign TO the Breaking thing , as well as Variable Bag Hitting ala CMA . over trime your hands do calcify and Strengthen , and your Bones get more dense .
Breaking a board is a big showboat thing that isn't hard to do. It impresses the people who don't realize its pretty easy. Mike Tyson can punch A LOT harder then Bruce Lee could ever dream of.
Karate is more about speed and accuracy. A punch is a punch and there is no special ancient chinese secret punch. A boxer trains for power more then a karate student, so I would imagine both people being of similar size, that the boxer would have a stronger punch, while the karate student would probably have much better kicking power.
Karate is more about speed and accuracy. A punch is a punch and there is no special ancient chinese secret punch. A boxer trains for power more then a karate student, so I would imagine both people being of similar size, that the boxer would have a stronger punch, while the karate student would probably have much better kicking power.
Djimbe
New member
Micker said:
Breaking A SINGLE board is easy .
Work your way up to Twenty , then tell me that same thing .
Well , seeing as Bruce Lee was a Scrub ACTOR that had never been in a real fight as an adult with less than 2 years of Instruction in his lifetime that weighed about ONE HUNDERED LBS LESS than Tyson , a guy with a LIFETIME of good Coaching - and that pesky extra 100 lbs of muscle - yeah , Id say that that was Correct ...
but not for the reason of what MA they did .
Whos karate ? Surely not "Ill Punch A Bull Once And Kill IT" Mas Oyama's Karate wasnt !
And more about "Speed And Accuracy" than WHOS Boxing ? Surely not Judah , or Tzu's ? You DO realise that most Bouts DONT end in KOs , dont you ?
Wrong .
Actually , even within the Confines of your Oh-So-Lauded sport of Boxing there are Two Punches . One they USED to use BEFORE Gloves , and the one they use NOW . Seriously , look it up - theres a DISTINCT difference . You see , Im a bit of a Student of the history of the game of Boxing , and Boxing Trainers do what WINS WITHIN THE RULES OF BOXING - no one gives a DAMN what the Impirically best way to do things is , they care about how to win BOXING MATCHES .
Actually , you couldnt be more Wrong . There are "Special Chinese" Punches . well , I dont know how "Secret" or "Ancient" they are , however there ARE different Hitting Methods that you seem to be Blissfully unaware of . Id be happy to Enlighten you as to what they were , but I dont think that you would do anything save doubt their Efficacy .
http://crane.50megs.com/index2.html
There is a COUPLE of Hitting Methods from a SINGLE system . IT explains why there are Forms , To teach the body the proper Mechanics , what forces are acting upon the body in Motion , etc .
Actually , if you knew ANYTHING about the sport of Boxing you would know that one of the MOST often tossed about phrases by even the GREATEST of Trainers is "You Cant Teach Power !" . In Boxing Trainers tend to work with what theyve got . They dont look for what isnt there , they just find a way to Enhance , and win with whats already present .
You can IMAGINE whatever it is you like , but that seems to have very little to do with Reality .
I was generalizing a bit. Calling Bruce lee an Actor is like calling Chuck Norris an actor. Sure they starred in movies, but they WERE followers and leaders in martial arts. Bruce lee did start his own, martial arts style so to speak in Jeet Kune Do. He was as much of a martial artist as anyone I can think of, having dedicated his life to it.
I used Bruce Lee, because he represents the total bullshit that hollywood feeds us about martial arts. Hollywood makes you think anyone with a black belt is a deadly weapon. That when you learn karate you suddenly learn a secret punch that lets you break boards!!!! OMG!!!! Its bullshit. I went to karate tournements and people were doing kata and breaking boards. The crowd was in awe, but the boards were little pieces of wood, easily broken. I have people tell me that Bruce Lee could beat anyone up and never lost a fight. Come on, he was good, but he was just too small PERIOD. Martial Arts has this mystery and wonderment attached to it, fed to us through the media. One inch punches, flipping men without touching them, Ninja who can disappear etc.. All this hype leads to the original poster asking if anyone but a karate student can break a board.
You can't teach maximum power, but you can teach/train to develop MORE power or to reach your maximum, and if a boxing coach can't teach power, then a karate master can't teach power.
My point is breaking a board proves nothing about your skill. Breaking several boards is about strength and power, and could be developed with ZERO knowledge about karate or boxing. The maximum boards a person could break would come down to the persons size and strength(punch power).
I used Bruce Lee, because he represents the total bullshit that hollywood feeds us about martial arts. Hollywood makes you think anyone with a black belt is a deadly weapon. That when you learn karate you suddenly learn a secret punch that lets you break boards!!!! OMG!!!! Its bullshit. I went to karate tournements and people were doing kata and breaking boards. The crowd was in awe, but the boards were little pieces of wood, easily broken. I have people tell me that Bruce Lee could beat anyone up and never lost a fight. Come on, he was good, but he was just too small PERIOD. Martial Arts has this mystery and wonderment attached to it, fed to us through the media. One inch punches, flipping men without touching them, Ninja who can disappear etc.. All this hype leads to the original poster asking if anyone but a karate student can break a board.
You can't teach maximum power, but you can teach/train to develop MORE power or to reach your maximum, and if a boxing coach can't teach power, then a karate master can't teach power.
My point is breaking a board proves nothing about your skill. Breaking several boards is about strength and power, and could be developed with ZERO knowledge about karate or boxing. The maximum boards a person could break would come down to the persons size and strength(punch power).
Djimbe
New member
Micker said:
WRONG . The difference between Noirris and Lee is that NORRIS was a LEGIT CHAMPION in his Sport , and ACTUALLY EARNED BLACK BELTS in THREE SYSTEMS ! Lee NEVER EVER Earned a BB or Teaching Cirtificate in ANY style , and he NEVER fought ANYONE as an Adult .
Wich NO ONE USES to any level of Success ! Even Inosanto just teaches BJJ+MT + a Little Kali thrown in now ! Lee "Invented" a PLATYPUS of uselessness . No one using "Jun Fan" or "Jeet Kune Do" has EVER done ANYTHING in the MMA/MT/KB World - and its MADE UP OF SPORTS SYSTEMS ! Now tell me how its "Really A Philosophy ...." Twaddle . I could make up my Own MA centering around Poo-Flinging , and that dosent mean SQUAT .
There is an IMMENSE difference between ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK and HUMBLING YOURSELF and paying Lip Service to it , and reaping the Rewards of having a Great Rap .
And seriously dude , training in your backyard to a "Style" wich you made up yourself with less than 2 years of actual Instruction ?
Thats what most of us call a Yard Tard .
The above statement is so true - ESPECIALLY in Refrence to Lee that I can do nothing but nod at it .
Ill say it again , there ARE no Secrets ! Most ppl I know are HAPPY to Teach and share what they know . Hell , I know all KINDS of Hitting MEthods and I show ppl for Free all the TIME !
HOWEVER ...
You found some McDojo TKD school where they Break Baked Balsa Boards (say THAT 5X fast ! HA) ... SO WHAT ? THEY dont Train hard , Goody for them , but that dosent Negate the ppl that USE the REAL Boards for TRAINING now does it ? Nor does it negate the fact that if you stack enough of them in a row it becomes Difficult .
Well , its easy to not lose something you have never been in . He has a PERFECT record of Zero Wins , Zero Losses , and Zero Draws .
There are different Training methods ,and ther4e are different HITTING methods . Theres noithing "Secret" , or "Miraculous" about them , but LOOK at the LINK
http://crane.50megs.com/index2.html
there IS a SCIENCE to it .
Sure you can . Says Who ?
Well , I can , and Im not "Master" anybody .
Wrong .
Technique amplifies Strength into greater Power . There are MANY techniques for Amplifying what you have into something more . Proper Standing , proper Breathing , proper Body Mechanics ...
Big Rick Rock
istrator
You can teach power.
You can teach someone to use proper form, thus projecting more power into their strikes.
I think JKD has done more for what MMA is today than most other martial arts have.
The JKD mentality is to learn and use what fits YOU as an individual, and NOT be limited by one style or form. Somewhere in there, after Bruce Lee died, they got greedy and instituted a belt system and MLM type crap that BL never wanted...
But then there were the guys who broke away and created the kick ass SBGi... Still, the idea in itself is great.
-BRR
You can teach someone to use proper form, thus projecting more power into their strikes.
I think JKD has done more for what MMA is today than most other martial arts have.
The JKD mentality is to learn and use what fits YOU as an individual, and NOT be limited by one style or form. Somewhere in there, after Bruce Lee died, they got greedy and instituted a belt system and MLM type crap that BL never wanted...
But then there were the guys who broke away and created the kick ass SBGi... Still, the idea in itself is great.
-BRR
Yarg!
Platinum Membership gift from THE BOMB SQUAD!
When Djimbe types up his rebuttals, for some odd reason I see the djimbe in his avatar going into overdrive and this drum beat starts playing in my head and starts cresendoing like that drum beat from Jumanji. Strange.. BRR whats wrong with SBG?
Big Rick Rock
istrator
Yarg! said:
Nothing wrong with SBGi at all. I have trained with their guys before. Out of all the "comercial" places, SBGi is the best I think.
-BRR
Djimbe
New member
Big Rick Rock said:
But the IDEA ITSELF had VERY VERY LITTLE to do with BRUCE ! CMA ppl were Blending Martial Arts HUNDEREDS of years before Bruce's birth . Its the entire TRADITION of Shaolin , AND the Wudang systems !
Bruce was a Philosophy Major , and a one time Resident of China . He used his knowledge of Chinese Culture and Philosophy to sound like the Ideas he had learned from Books were his Own Origional ones . Wich couldnt be furthur from the truth .
Dong Hai Chuan - as ONE SMALL Example - Was the Progenetor of Baguazhang . He NEVER Taught a student that wasnt already a Master , and That didnt teach him THEIR system FIRST ! WHat does this mean ? Every Existing form Of baguazhang is a Mixed MA . Wing Chun is a Combo of Snake and Crane , Some Mantis systems have Monkey Footwork ... heck , theres a system called "Taiji Mantis" !
Using what works and disgarding the rest wasnt anything REMOTELY CLOSE to Bruce Lees Idea . It comes from the Great Daoist Philosopher Chuang Tzu .
Bruce Lee was a great philosopher, and had a fantastic mind for stragety in fiighting. He wasn't the ultimate warrior that people think he was, but I give him credit for what he did for martial arts. He really brought martial arts out of the closet.
Yeah, they realized that if you don't give people some phisical prize for their progress, then they don't like it. Study hard get an A, Work hard make more money, practice karate....umm change your belt color
.
Eventually you give someone a black belt, symbolizing mastery of the art so to speak, even if the person doesn't deserve it, if they are loyal payers.
Also, I didn't say you couldn't teach power, I believe you CAN teach it. Teachinig a boxer to punch using his hips, keeping his hook close to his body etc.. all adds to power and it taught.
Yeah, they realized that if you don't give people some phisical prize for their progress, then they don't like it. Study hard get an A, Work hard make more money, practice karate....umm change your belt color
.Eventually you give someone a black belt, symbolizing mastery of the art so to speak, even if the person doesn't deserve it, if they are loyal payers.
Also, I didn't say you couldn't teach power, I believe you CAN teach it. Teachinig a boxer to punch using his hips, keeping his hook close to his body etc.. all adds to power and it taught.
Big Rick Rock
istrator
Djimbe said:
I wouldn't call it "cross training" to learn 3 different Kung Fu animals.
Even if Lee's ideas were inspired by Chinese culture, it does not erase the fact that he actually put those ideas to work. He started something that is now HUGE.
JKD has been a major factor in what MMA is today. And I think SBGi took it a step further, these guys figured it out (well before the UFC) that cross training in BJJ+MT+Judo/Wrestling+Kali gave you a very well rounded system, you have the best grappling and striking systems plus the best weapon system all taught in one gym. Can't get much better that that.
-edit- I shouldn't say "the best" since that sounds like my own opinion.
Maybe I should say, "the most proven systems".
-BRR
Last edited:
Djimbe
New member
Micker said:
No . No he wasnt . He was a Middling Philosophy student that regurgitated the Ideas of REAL Philosophers ON CAMERA without so much as a "Well A Wise Man Once Said ..." So ppl THOUGHT that the Ideas came from Him , while they SO did not .
This is based on what ? All of his Victories over NO ONE ? All of his Students , and Students Students that became UFC Champs ?
FINALLY youve said something REAL .
Making something POPULAR and being GREAT at it are two TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS ! Bruce was NONE of one , but ALL ABOUT the other . All he was was pretty on CAmera , with NO Fighting in real Life to back up all his misguided little theorems about Fitness and Fighting .
Were talking about the kind of Power Training that gives a 90 lb person enough juice to knock out a 300 lb man if they can Land the Strike . The kind that , Ill say it again , lets you break TWENTY Boards , not just one .
Djimbe
New member
Big Rick Rock said:
Why , because of the NAMES ?
There is more difference in the Movement anbd Fighting styles of Monkey and Mantis than there is between Boxing and Muay Thai - and you WOULD call THAT Cross Training , wouldnt you ? Hell , theres more difference between the two systems than there is between Boxing and CAPOEIRA ! You DO realise that "China" is IMMENSE , and that all systems coming from there arent even particularly SIMILAR , much less the same , right ?
No , appearantly you didnt .
No , not "Insired by" A TOTAL AND BLATANT WORD-FOR-WORD RIPOFF ! Im talking like on the level of getting caught copying out of the Encyclopedia for a Report on the Crimean war . The guy was a C- student in Philosophy . He just had enough Retention to be able to take a few Ripped-Off quotes with him to Interviews . And he didnt just Rip off The Chinese , some of his stuff is from Japanese Sources , as well , Tatsuan Soho
Against WHOM ???
WHEN ?
WHERE ?
the man NEVER EVER EVER Fought anyone !
And again , NONE of his Students EVER Produced ANYONE of ANY Merit using his ACTUAL METHODS .
Big Rick Rock
istrator
Djimbe said:
Randy Couture started with SBGi. Here is a quote:
"The training at the Straight Blast Gym has been instrumental in my preparation for reality fighting in the UFC. Matt's expertise in stand-up, and ground fighting techniques has helped me win the Ultimate Fighting Championships. There is no rest for the best!" - Randy Couture (UFC 13, 14, & 16 champion)
Funny that you say SBGi has never produced a champion... Thats the same thing I say about every Chinese Martial Art ever practiced. They have never produced a champion in any MMA league I'm aware of.
Hey... Wasn't Matt Thorton the one who stood infront of your face and told you that CMAs have contributed "NOTHING" to the world of MMA or somethign like that? I think I remember you saying something to that effect... I could be wrong.
-BRR
Yarg!
Platinum Membership gift from THE BOMB SQUAD!
Big Rick Rock said:
Forrest Griffin was also from SBG.
I like SBG because articles like this:
http://sfuk.tripod.com/articles_02/thorntonforms.html
Which I can't help, but nod at
Unfortunately the MA school I attend does not always use aliveness (which you define so well in your videos and web site) as it's guiding principal. People will often defend training methods were aliveness is not a factor. During a discussion about training methods someone said to me "What about boxers hitting the heavy bag, and speed bag there is no aliveness there, So hitting the bags is a waist of time huh. Hitting the speed bag doesn't look anything like fighting so that must be a waste of time too huh.." I replied that the heavy bag was good for things like body mechanics, and could be a great work out in itself. The only response was "well if there's no aliveness how can it be any good, huh..." Anyway just wondering if you had ever fielded a comment like this?
You are correct. People will defend their beliefs because they are feeling defensive. This usually has to do with personal identification with the method. And so the best thing you can do there is simply speak your truth, (never be afraid to do that!), smile, and walk on.
In regards a heavybag, you can make heavybag training more realistic. . . . by moving around, and not using repeated patterns like a robot. However, there are many things we may do that improve are bodies that are not "Alive". Its just that all of those things fall under the category of conditioning/excercise. Lifting weights is not Alive, but it will have a direct impact on your body.
Aliveness comes in is when you include a partner. BJJ is a great example. You could roll around with a stuffed dummy on the mat, and practice knee ride, punches, etc. This would be very similar to a boxer hitting the heavybag. However, if you never, or rarely wrestle "live" against a resisting opponent, you will never be able to compete or reach the performance level of even a beginer blue belt.
You must have Aliveness, its as simple as that, thats where timing and abililty come from. As it is in BJJ it is in stand up, and clinch.
But you can't teach beginners that way. How can you teach a whole seminar full of people that way. It would look chaotic?
Simply not true. I teach seminars all over the world without the aid of dead patterns. I teach stick, ground, clinch, stand up, whatever, without ever busting into a pattern. All the while people learn quickly, have fun, laugh, and stay injury free.
What about the idea that these dead pattern drills are for self perfection?
That is usually the last excuse for poor training methods that gets put out there. The thing to ask here is what is meant by the term "self perfection"? If that term is left undescribed, then the idea itself is absolutely meaningless. So it is important to ask for a description on this.
Once a description is given, ask yourself if an Alive training method would serve that description just as well, or in reality. . .much better. You will find this is always the case.
Remember, for something to be used for 'self improvement' it must first be true, real, authentic.
If you are looking for real methods of "self perfection" then you will find them in Alive training, in athletics. As the late, great Joseph Campbell stated, "the only peak experiences I have realized have come as a result of athletics."
But don't they thrown all the 'self perfection' or 'spiritual side' away when they train only Alive?
This is backwards, in reality the opposite is true. And there is much writing regarding how functional athletic training can have serve as a deep and meaningful vehicle for self actualization, and realization.
But people like the goofy stuff?
I disagree.
Let me give you a concrete example. Often I hear from Instructors that state that some students 'want' that 'stuff'. I have taught seminars before where the host begged me to show some 'trapping' because the students would love it, and I was told that the group that I was teaching to, (as non athletic a group as you could find) would not respond to my approach. Anyone who knows me knows I don't I don't compromise on this, ever. So. . . I showed no hand trapping, or one and two step sparring. I taught as I always teach, and the students. . . . . .loved it. They said to the Instructor. . ."whydidn't you show us this approach before?"
That has been my experience all over the world.
But, would I have had the muscle memory or coordination with/without the drill?
What would you say if I threw a right cross in sparring, after being taught reverse punches and Karate blocks. And then when it was pointed out to me that my cross didn't look anything like my reverse punches and karate blocks I stated,
"True, but would I have had the muscle memory or coordination with/without the drill? Personally, I don't think so."
It just makes no sense.
http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/
Djimbe
New member
Coture started in School , with Wrestling . Wrestling is what made him what he is , and if Thornton was so Great hed still be training with him , not at a MUCH better school RIGHT DOWN THE ROAD .
I dont honestly know Forrests History , and thats why I said ONE out of MANY MANY MANY is a FLUKE . Even still im betting he wasnt TOTALLY a product of SBG just because of their Track Record . Militetch MAKES ChampionS
I dont honestly know Forrests History , and thats why I said ONE out of MANY MANY MANY is a FLUKE . Even still im betting he wasnt TOTALLY a product of SBG just because of their Track Record . Militetch MAKES ChampionS
Here's an interesting part of an article about boxers vs karate:
"Of course, the best boxers can punch as quickly and powerfully as any black belt. Why can't they break concrete blocks too? The answer lies in the nature of their punches. When a boxer throws his fist, he usually ends the movement with follow-through. This gives the punch maximum momentum (golf and tennis players follow through for the same reason), and it can help knock an opponent down. But the impact itself is diffuse: It's meant to jar an opponent's brain, not crack his skull.
A karate chop, on the other hand, has no follow-through at all: It lashes out like a cobra and then withdraws instantly When a black belt hits a slab of concrete, for instance, his fist touches the block for fewer than five milliseconds, and yet the block breaks with a resounding crack.
To understand how this works, Jearl Walker, a former tae kwon do student who now teaches physics at Cleveland State University, set up a study much like Feld's and McNair's. A well-thrown fist, he found, reaches its maximum velocity when the arm is about 80 percent extended. "That's exactly what my tae kwon do master had taught me," Walker says. "You learn to focus your punch in your imagination so that it terminates inside your opponent's body, rather than on the surface. To deliver the maximum power, you want to make contact before the slowdown begins."
Here's the link to the rest of the article: http://www.zinkle.com/p/articles/mi_m1511/is_5_21/ai_61692484
"Of course, the best boxers can punch as quickly and powerfully as any black belt. Why can't they break concrete blocks too? The answer lies in the nature of their punches. When a boxer throws his fist, he usually ends the movement with follow-through. This gives the punch maximum momentum (golf and tennis players follow through for the same reason), and it can help knock an opponent down. But the impact itself is diffuse: It's meant to jar an opponent's brain, not crack his skull.
A karate chop, on the other hand, has no follow-through at all: It lashes out like a cobra and then withdraws instantly When a black belt hits a slab of concrete, for instance, his fist touches the block for fewer than five milliseconds, and yet the block breaks with a resounding crack.
To understand how this works, Jearl Walker, a former tae kwon do student who now teaches physics at Cleveland State University, set up a study much like Feld's and McNair's. A well-thrown fist, he found, reaches its maximum velocity when the arm is about 80 percent extended. "That's exactly what my tae kwon do master had taught me," Walker says. "You learn to focus your punch in your imagination so that it terminates inside your opponent's body, rather than on the surface. To deliver the maximum power, you want to make contact before the slowdown begins."
Here's the link to the rest of the article: http://www.zinkle.com/p/articles/mi_m1511/is_5_21/ai_61692484
tgriff
Member
Yes....When I was in the 7th grade my shop teacher and his 6 year old son took karate.. They would always grab a couple boards and bust them for the class...He bets my friend that he cant do it..Keep in mind my friend has never even learned a karate stance much less how to break boards...Anyway the teacher grabs two boards and my friend tore them apart...And this was while we were in the 7th grade...I can only imagine what a heavyweight could do..But in the defense karate masters, my friend bruised his hand up pretty good...So I dont think you would see many boxers trying it just for the hell of it..
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