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Blown Knee GH, Sarms and HRT

goin on 4T

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Ok guys I need some advice. Here is the situation. I am 42 years old and am on HRT, with some addition gear (masteron, NPP, GH and IGF) because I am/was going to do a show in April of 2010. The day after Christmas I was playing street football with my kids and GF and her family. I jumped up to catch a pass and came down hard and crooked on my knee as my shoe gripped the asphalt and did not release putting tremendous pressure on my knee. I screamed and fell to the ground; however I held on to the ball and scored the tying touchdown (lol). After about 5 min of pain on the ground I tried to stand up and there was no support on my knee I turned white and sweat started to pour out of my body. One of the neighbors got a wheel chair for me and I was rolled into the house. I went to the Dr. on Monday and he sent me to X-Ray and it showed no fractures but my knee cap looked lower than normal. I have an MRI scheduled for Wednesday. My knee is really swollen, I have been icing it every 15 min on/off when I have time. I have not put any weight on it since Saturday and it still hurts.
So here are my questions:

1. Will the other AAS be negative for my recovery?
2. If they are negative, should I then drop my test to 150mg/wk for HRT?
3. I believe the GH and IGF will be good for my recovery. I was thinking of GH @ 5IU’s per day (2.5IU’s AM and 2.5IU’s in the afternoon subq) and IGF at 25mcg’s per day IM in my calf of the knee that is messed up.
4. If I tore my ACL and/or meniscus cartilage, will I be able to do full squats without surgery?
5. Should I go the gym on Monday and just do upper body on machines?

This really sucks any input is greatly appreciated!
 
Good Luck to you. I've had 4 knee surgeries. It has been all downhill since the 1st, one of which included a Patella release. That one had me on crutches for 6 months. Seriously, Good Luck.
 
Ok guys I need some advice. Here is the situation. I am 42 years old and am on HRT, with some addition gear (masteron, NPP, GH and IGF) because I am/was going to do a show in April of 2010. The day after Christmas I was playing street football with my kids and GF and her family. I jumped up to catch a pass and came down hard and crooked on my knee as my shoe gripped the asphalt and did not release putting tremendous pressure on my knee. I screamed and fell to the ground; however I held on to the ball and scored the tying touchdown (lol). After about 5 min of pain on the ground I tried to stand up and there was no support on my knee I turned white and sweat started to pour out of my body. One of the neighbors got a wheel chair for me and I was rolled into the house. I went to the Dr. on Monday and he sent me to X-Ray and it showed no fractures but my knee cap looked lower than normal. I have an MRI scheduled for Wednesday. My knee is really swollen, I have been icing it every 15 min on/off when I have time. I have not put any weight on it since Saturday and it still hurts.
So here are my questions:

1. Will the other AAS be negative for my recovery?
2. If they are negative, should I then drop my test to 150mg/wk for HRT?
3. I believe the GH and IGF will be good for my recovery. I was thinking of GH @ 5IU’s per day (2.5IU’s AM and 2.5IU’s in the afternoon subq) and IGF at 25mcg’s per day IM in my calf of the knee that is messed up.
4. If I tore my ACL and/or meniscus cartilage, will I be able to do full squats without surgery?
5. Should I go the gym on Monday and just do upper body on machines?

This really sucks any input is greatly appreciated!



i would suggest 2 weeks layoff for that knee or at least until we see what the MRI yields.


RADAR
 
Going,
I like what Radar said, wait for what they tell you. Me, I would opt at #5 without stopping HRT and 150mg of Test is very legit as far as doses for HRT.
 
Just from my from personal experance with a bad sports caused joint injury: Stay off it until you get the MRI results and get a good athletic / sports specialized surgeon to look at the MRI.
 
i would suggest 2 weeks layoff for that knee or at least until we see what the MRI yields.


RADAR

I would have expected nothing but real solid advice from you guys no matter how much I want to hear something else. Until my MRI I am screwed and the potential for great damage is high until I know what the damage is!
Thank you and Happy New Year to all!
 
Damn bro. Sorry to hear this. What a shitty way to start the new year.

I agree with the above bros. Stay out of the gym and stay on hrt doses.

Good luck with your speedy recovery.
 
Sorry to hear about your injury.

1) Definitely wait for the MRI.

2) Some knee ligament tears (i.e. PCL) don't necessarily need surgery. As far as I know (I could be wrong), ACL tears are unstable and you'd want that one fixed. I've been missing my PCL for around 15 years and it doesn't hurt my lifting at all. If your doctor does diagnose a tear, force him to explain to you if you have an unstable injury. Also make sure he understands your expectations for exercise before he makes a go/no-go recommendation for surgery.

3) Just about any ligament and/or cartilage damage will accelerate the deterioration of the joint. If you do try to put-off reconstruction, you can force a knee replacement too early. For example, let's say you'll live to 80 (I'm just playing the odds here). That would mean you don't want a knee replacement before 60 or so -- so you'll have to get another 18 years out of the knee you've got. Otherwise you'd may get stuck with a revision later in life and no one wants to go into surgery in their 70's.
 
Can you walk on it at all yet? I've injured my knees here and there. A couple years ago I turned the wrong way and didn't lift my foot and my femur felt like it came right out of the joint and my leg collapsed under me. My knee got really swollen and sounds similar in some ways to what you have going on in a way. But, the knee is complex and you just never know. I was training lightly a few days later, but was hobbling around for some time, though I did compete a few months later. I hope it doesn't keep you from competing. I believe you can stay on your extra juice, but you'll want to keep icing it a few times per day though and keep off it till you find out more!

My knees have really become my weak point and I hate to have that happen as my thighs can use all the work they can get! I wish you good luck in your recovery and remember to be careful on those knees! I have to be very mindful of how I'm squatting, leg pressing etc and pay special attention now to those little twinges I'd never thought twice about years ago!
 
I'll answer #1, #2 and #5.

I've had a lot of very serious injuries (motorcycle accidents mainly) and messed up various parts of my body pretty good. I'm bit older than you at 50, but I would recommend staying off the knee completely and following sound medical advice there, but don't stop at the gym and don't lower your doses until you've completed your cycle.

You need to stay positive during this stressful and depressing ordeal. The rest of your body works fine, so do everything you can in the gym including work for your good leg. It will give you extra confidence to get through this.

In my 20's I broke my lower tibia, femur and ulna and radius on a bike. Not long after I left the hospital I crutched around the gym exercising every body part I could still train. I even did crunches for my abs while I was in traction in hospital.
 
That is exactly how it happened my foot stuck to the concrete from my new nike's and it felt like the two bones collided and I collapsed on the street. I tried to put all my weight on it the other day when I got out of the shower. It held but I am very nervous/cautios as I don't want to furter injure it.
Did you get your knee MRI'ed after that?
Thanks for the words!

Can you walk on it at all yet? I've injured my knees here and there. A couple years ago I turned the wrong way and didn't lift my foot and my femur felt like it came right out of the joint and my leg collapsed under me. My knee got really swollen and sounds similar in some ways to what you have going on in a way. But, the knee is complex and you just never know. I was training lightly a few days later, but was hobbling around for some time, though I did compete a few months later. I hope it doesn't keep you from competing. I believe you can stay on your extra juice, but you'll want to keep icing it a few times per day though and keep off it till you find out more!

My knees have really become my weak point and I hate to have that happen as my thighs can use all the work they can get! I wish you good luck in your recovery and remember to be careful on those knees! I have to be very mindful of how I'm squatting, leg pressing etc and pay special attention now to those little twinges I'd never thought twice about years ago!
 
Wow thanks for the vote of confidence!

I'll answer #1, #2 and #5.

I've had a lot of very serious injuries (motorcycle accidents mainly) and messed up various parts of my body pretty good. I'm bit older than you at 50, but I would recommend staying off the knee completely and following sound medical advice there, but don't stop at the gym and don't lower your doses until you've completed your cycle.

You need to stay positive during this stressful and depressing ordeal. The rest of your body works fine, so do everything you can in the gym including work for your good leg. It will give you extra confidence to get through this.

In my 20's I broke my lower tibia, femur and ulna and radius on a bike. Not long after I left the hospital I crutched around the gym exercising every body part I could still train. I even did crunches for my abs while I was in traction in hospital.
 
Did the person you initially saw do any stability tests at all to take a stab if it was your ACL, MCL, PCL? Even a good athletic trainer should be able to guess from your pain responses, and from how it feels, what the issue might be. As someone said above I wouldnt screw with that leg until a good sports ortho takes a look at it. But if you can without putting any pressure on the other leg at all, its usually good to train the healthy limbs, as there is some neurological transfer to the injured limb. After you find out whats wrong with it, and you can safely get to and from the gym, and move in the gym without risking any pressure on it, training the good leg is a smart thing to do. It will help your injured leg bounce back way faster, atrophy less, and keep you in the game some. Keep training your upper body but be creative to do things you dont need to put any weight or pressure on your legs in doing so. Be careful with some of the bigger lifts even like bench, until you got a bad lower body injury its funny how you wouldnt know how much you tense and stabilize with your entire body locking it down to press...so if you feel anything in your hurt wheel, back off.

No worries on getting back to what you need to do. If you get a good ortho, and a good physical therapist, you can get back pretty quickly. Age and genetics are a factor, but athletes come back from knee injuries all the time getting right back into playing games and such months after surgeries. I got friends who have blown out both knees with surgeries in college and pro football wear and tear, in their 30s now and still can clean and squat heavy (not as heavy, but heavy and faster and SMARTER).

Its going to be all about how you approach personal rehab, if you need surgery picking a good ortho who WORKS WITH ATHLETES, and a physical therapist that does the same. Sadly many doctors and physical therapists, after your sports career is over, their solution is "if it hurts or might hurt dont do it". So you need to ask around or surf the net in your area, finding sports med office and talking to them to see the types of clients they work with. When you meet the doctor, just by the nature of how you did it, and Im assuming how you look, he should catch a clue pretty quick you are not going to subscribe to the "stay off of it" or "dont do things that might hurt it" bullshit approach....ie if a doc tells you squatting is bad for your knees, walk the fuck out ASAP. Id be very open with the doctor of your goals, that you want to train hard, you want to compete in BB contest, etc. You want someone who "gets it". You find a doc who gets it, and if surgery is needed a good physical therapist who "gets it", your recovery will be very good and the mental component of knowing you have a team of medical professionals who are on the same sheet of music wanting to get you back to the gym and competing in BB and playing backyard football come the next holidays, you should be good to go. None of us know what is going on, but Id stay positive that despite it sucking, knee injuries are so common that there are good protocols established how to get back in the thick of things, and that people get their knees and shoulders zippered all the time and get back to kicking ass.

Personally Ive never done the knees....but Ive seriously torn major muscles, fractured and dislocated bones and joints, done a lot of damage to my body with sports and training...and most recently I had a bicep detachment repaired last Feb, and prior to that multiple pelvic floor surgeries since a doctor totally botched my initial surgery trying to fix a minor tear in my GI from squatting...messed me up so bad it forced a medical retirement....but Im back to training again, and just learn more and more over the years that you gotta train smarter not always harder, and work around injuries and be creative.

You are such a knowledgeable and intelligent guy on this forum, Im sure once the doctor gives you the scoop on what it is you do have going on, you will be able to do a little research on your own and brainstorming with some medical professionals, and get on the warpath to healing yourself up!!!

God Bless, Stay Strong
 
See answers in Red

Did the person you initially saw do any stability tests at all to take a stab if it was your ACL, MCL, PCL? First he said he blelieved I tore my MCL, then he did the push the right inside and push the outside and pushed on the front of the knee below the knee cap and there was NO PAIN, so I asked him, since it didn't hurt nothing is really torn and he kind of agreed and went against his first GUESS. I call it a guess because I never even took my pants for him to look at it. He is a GP not an Ortho.Even a good athletic trainer should be able to guess from your pain responses, and from how it feels, what the issue might be. As someone said above I wouldnt screw with that leg until a good sports ortho takes a look at it. When the MRI comes in and I meet with him I am going to request an ortho and I there are several good sports orthos in my city But if you can without putting any pressure on the other leg at all, its usually good to train the healthy limbs, as there is some neurological transfer to the injured limb. After you find out whats wrong with it, and you can safely get to and from the gym, and move in the gym without risking any pressure on it, training the good leg is a smart thing to do. It will help your injured leg bounce back way faster, atrophy less, and keep you in the game some. Keep training your upper body but be creative to do things you dont need to put any weight or pressure on your legs in doing so. Be careful with some of the bigger lifts even like bench, until you got a bad lower body injury its funny how you wouldnt know how much you tense and stabilize with your entire body locking it down to press...so if you feel anything in your hurt wheel, back off.

No worries on getting back to what you need to do. If you get a good ortho, and a good physical therapist, you can get back pretty quickly. Age and genetics are a factor, but athletes come back from knee injuries all the time getting right back into playing games and such months after surgeries. I got friends who have blown out both knees with surgeries in college and pro football wear and tear, in their 30s now and still can clean and squat heavy (not as heavy, but heavy and faster and SMARTER).
Yeah squats are my bread n butter and I love them, my body was really looking good too. Lots of veins coming out in the thighs and my calves were freaking sick. Not bad for 42 @ less than 10% BF

Its going to be all about how you approach personal rehab, if you need surgery picking a good ortho who WORKS WITH ATHLETES, and a physical therapist that does the same. Sadly many doctors and physical therapists, after your sports career is over, their solution is "if it hurts or might hurt dont do it". So you need to ask around or surf the net in your area, finding sports med office and talking to them to see the types of clients they work with. When you meet the doctor, just by the nature of how you did it, and Im assuming how you look, he should catch a clue pretty quick you are not going to subscribe to the "stay off of it" or "dont do things that might hurt it" bullshit approach....ie if a doc tells you squatting is bad for your knees, walk the fuck out ASAP. Id be very open with the doctor of your goals, that you want to train hard, you want to compete in BB contest, etc. You want someone who "gets it". You find a doc who gets it, and if surgery is needed a good physical therapist who "gets it", your recovery will be very good and the mental component of knowing you have a team of medical professionals who are on the same sheet of music wanting to get you back to the gym and competing in BB and playing backyard football come the next holidays, you should be good to go. None of us know what is going on, but Id stay positive that despite it sucking, knee injuries are so common that there are good protocols established how to get back in the thick of things, and that people get their knees and shoulders zippered all the time and get back to kicking ass.Wow thanks man, but I am not playing football on a hard surface ever again. If there is no grass count me out!

Personally Ive never done the knees....but Ive seriously torn major muscles, fractured and dislocated bones and joints, done a lot of damage to my body with sports and training...and most recently I had a bicep detachment repaired last Feb, and prior to that multiple pelvic floor surgeries since a doctor totally botched my initial surgery trying to fix a minor tear in my GI from squatting...messed me up so bad it forced a medical retirement....but Im back to training again, and just learn more and more over the years that you gotta train smarter not always harder, and work around injuries and be creative. Wow what do you do wrestle cars?

You are such a knowledgeable and intelligent guy on this forum, Im sure once the doctor gives you the scoop on what it is you do have going on, you will be able to do a little research on your own and brainstorming with some medical professionals, and get on the warpath to healing yourself up!!!Thanks man that is really nice of you to say! No Homo!

God Bless, Stay Strong
 
PS-I know none of you personally and dont see how you train, so I am not pointing any fingers...as well I have done severe damage to my body over the years training like a jackass madman....but when it comes to knees and backs, there are so many things that you can do to aggravate those issues in the gym...and I do not BB and dont know anything about it, used to read the magazines in middle and high school, but nothing in the last 17 years or so....but seeking out different ways to train from some strength and conditioning gurus who have backgrounds in physical therapy, might help you develop leg and back programs that will help either relieve pressure on your old nagging knees or backs, or avoid creating injuries in your knees and backs. A lot of the stuff I perceive to be BB or what I see from guys in the regular gyms (I normally train in college weightrooms or MMA gyms), is some bad bad bad shit...poor choice of exercises, bad form, ridiculous/haphazard sets and reps, etc...so just be careful all of us, how we train when it comes to getting a little older and nagging injuries creep up on us. And at all costs if you arent 18 with no injury history, avoid that nutty Crossfit bullshit haha, that will set you up for injury no doubt hah.
 
haha....that was a quick response man, I just posted up another short add on and then saw your responses...haha...hilarious....

Keep that attitude and good spirits and you will be getting back to business soon. If you are in SoCal I imagine there are many great sports orthos. I know in the LA area where I just moved there are a few offices that are very well known. Im digging the medical care in SoCal, in 4 months Ive gotten more improvement than 3 years on the east coast.

No not wrestling cars....just a chronic overtraining addict....started training hard in 6th grade or so, played football, baseball, basketball, and powerlifting through high school...football and powerlifting in college...then started S&C coaching in graduate school and MMA....so even after my college sports med staff told me I wouldnt walk in my mid 30s from the injuries I had and to stop abusing myself, I went through my 20s and started my 30s still doing MMA, powerlifting, olympic lifting, and training like my life depended on it hah....

So as much as I may know about training....its like tapping a vein to me man, and Ive pushed it too far too many times....haha...so I speak from "dont do some of the same stupid things Ive done!"...
 
sorry to hear that goin on 4t. ive got no advice for you other than to keep weight off of the knee and wait for your mri. good luck bro, get well soon.
 
That is exactly how it happened my foot stuck to the concrete from my new nike's and it felt like the two bones collided and I collapsed on the street. I tried to put all my weight on it the other day when I got out of the shower. It held but I am very nervous/cautios as I don't want to furter injure it.
Did you get your knee MRI'ed after that?
Thanks for the words!

I didn't get it checked out even. I just used a lot of ice and did light leg extensions etc. for awhile to rehab it. It was fine for a long time, but I recently injured the same knee, not as severely, doing squats. Truthfully, my knees tend to be a little on the weak side, small joints, 6'2" and the knee caps have always "floated" a bit, not a real strong connection in there! Every injury is different. I'd just really get it checked out if I was you, but didn't have the money or insurance to do so at the time myself.

My knees seem fine for the time being, but I'm not hitting squats very hard lately either.
 
I didn't get it checked out even. I just used a lot of ice and did light leg extensions etc. for awhile to rehab it. It was fine for a long time, but I recently injured the same knee, not as severely, doing squats. Truthfully, my knees tend to be a little on the weak side, small joints, 6'2" and the knee caps have always "floated" a bit, not a real strong connection in there! Every injury is different. I'd just really get it checked out if I was you, but didn't have the money or insurance to do so at the time myself.

My knees seem fine for the time being, but I'm not hitting squats very hard lately either.

For me, squatting off a box (coming to complete rest, then lifting it as dead weight) doesn't bother my knees at all.
 
For me, squatting off a box (coming to complete rest, then lifting it as dead weight) doesn't bother my knees at all.

I don't come to a complete rest, but I do use a bench as a sort of marker to not go any lower. I see what you are saying though, taking the knees somewhat out of it at the bottom?
 
I don't come to a complete rest, but I do use a bench as a sort of marker to not go any lower. I see what you are saying though, taking the knees somewhat out of it at the bottom?

Yup. For a regular squat, the abrupt change of weight direction puts more stress on my knee. If I do a static lift off the box, I completely unload my knee and then re-load it on my own time.

Plus it's humbling. If you get a nice low box, you'll discover hip and ass muscles that haven't been getting properly worked over the years.
 
Depression will be your biggest enemy while waiting for your knee to heal. Staying positive in the gym will be the best cure for this. Try to at least keep all your gains everywhere else and don't forget to train your good leg.

I've had the misfortune of having to work through incredibly bad injuries in the gym and I'm still at it 33 years later. I've just found out I have osteoarthritis in both knees, but I'm still squatting.

Don't give up! Don't let depression kill your enthusiasm.
 
Yup. For a regular squat, the abrupt change of weight direction puts more stress on my knee. If I do a static lift off the box, I completely unload my knee and then re-load it on my own time.

Plus it's humbling. If you get a nice low box, you'll discover hip and ass muscles that haven't been getting properly worked over the years.

I was so happy today when I went to the gym and discovered someone had donated a nice, shiny new "trap bar"! You know what those are? They are diamond shaped and you stand in the middle and grip on each side. Some use them for deadlifts but for a lanky fellow like myself they are a godsend for perfect-form squats! The center of gravity is low, you can adjust the balance as you squat- i.e. shift it from one area of thigh work to another etc. I'm so ready for my Thursday leg workout now. I really think this thing will be easier on my knees as well, but we'll see. I believe most of my knee pain comes from the awkward balancing and counterbalancing that goes on throughout the squat movement. I mean, once your knee has been injured in such a way as to make it less stable, those types of things start to come into account. But, if balance is taken out of it, I can only imagine good things. Plus it can't help to build some extra grip and trap strength!

Here's the one I saw in the gym today:
Amazon.com: Olympic Hip and Trap Combo Bar: Sports & Outdoors
 
I was so happy today when I went to the gym and discovered someone had donated a nice, shiny new "trap bar"! You know what those are? They are diamond shaped and you stand in the middle and grip on each side. Some use them for deadlifts but for a lanky fellow like myself they are a godsend for perfect-form squats! The center of gravity is low, you can adjust the balance as you squat- i.e. shift it from one area of thigh work to another etc. I'm so ready for my Thursday leg workout now. I really think this thing will be easier on my knees as well, but we'll see. I believe most of my knee pain comes from the awkward balancing and counterbalancing that goes on throughout the squat movement. I mean, once your knee has been injured in such a way as to make it less stable, those types of things start to come into account. But, if balance is taken out of it, I can only imagine good things. Plus it can't help to build some extra grip and trap strength!

Here's the one I saw in the gym today:
Amazon.com: Olympic Hip and Trap Combo Bar: Sports & Outdoors

That's pretty slick. Looks like the barbell version of a dumbell deadlift.
 
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