Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Training Progression Over Time and The Use of Benchmarks

Posted this in another thread but it's an important distinction that has kind of been misinterpreted by a lot of people in thinking some of the 5x5 programs are 'static' and not snapshots of a dynamic progression that evolves with the lifter over time from initially setting records every week (even 2-3x for a beginner) and then later 1x per week, and beyond that more standard periodization is used to elicit progress every 4 or even 8 weeks.

So a lot of this stems from a conversation with Glenn Pendlay about what he feels is really important but what a lot of people miss. Probably useful to add to your perspective on variations:

The variations are there simply due to experience level. What makes a novice grow won't work for an intermediate and likewise the same case for intermediate/advanced and advanced/elite. Training is a progression. And one can't address this by simply changing their routine all the time to keep their 'muscles confused'. This entails consistently driving the core lifts up using largely volume/intenisty/frequency/periodization/ and to a lesser degree targetted assistance work that addresses specific weaknesses in an individual. Basically, anything different will allow you to get better at it for a while (volume fans starting HIT or HIT fans starting volume or new exercises swapped around) but if the big lifts aren't moving up, you are just rotating crap and stagnating despite what might seem like a good progression. The big lifts are your benchmark so to speak - if you are rotating garbage and not progressing, they won't move and to a large degree you won't get any steady physique progress mid to long term.

So what is the progression? The idea behind training is to add weight to the bar as often as possible, generally 2x per week can work for a beginner (in some cases 3x for a bit), this trends down to 1x per week, and later every 4 weeks and then 8 weeks as periodization becomes more and more important. What might be the best method for a beginner simply won't work at all for someone more experienced and a beginner using a more experienced program than necessary will wind up with slower progression and in some cases no progression.

I had this conversation on a board the other day regarding Westside's methods. Bottom line, if Louie could go into the gym and train just the core PLs and consistently add even a little weight to the bar week to week consistently - he'd be loving it and it would result in massive gains over a 6 month training cycle. The bottom line is that he can't and this is where Westside's methods come from, making optimal use of limited resources. Novices don't hit the resource wall and until they do, they should be milking it for all it's worth and increasing their weights as often as they can.

The key takeaway is that training must change over time but you should always gear for optimal progress. Having benchmarks like the core lifts where increases result in tangible largescale increases in strength and hypertrophy over the body is the mentality to have and allows one to evaluate training effectiveness and progress over time periods.

Now not having a coach or enough good training experience to pull from, you have to kind of pick a 'cookie cutter' type template (think of it as a snapshot of a single point in the progression) that is an estimate of where you think you are at right now and see what happens. These are the 5x5 examples in my thread, basically a linear weekly model for novices (probably most of the people on this site since this is a whole different type of training than they are used to), I don't have anything for raw beginners yet, and the other is setup as an 'intro to periodization' so to speak that will work for someone at that point and not kill someone who isn't quite ready for it (i.e. they'll get less gains than optimal but most people still find the results infinitely better than what they were getting from their previous programs).

At this point it should be pretty obvious that I think the generic training plit template working a bodypart 1x per week with a shotgun array of exercises is pretty much absolute garbage to be using for the majority of the year. Consider also that most people don't have any inkling of the concepts that I've addressed here and in my thread, that this stuff is very simple and integral to training success yet nothing like it ever gets put in a BBing magazine, and this is the state of training today which is infinitely better than it was 10 years ago but still really really abysmal and horid.

 

[go2failure]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

bump

 

[Blade_HST]

Ok, I've read the first 10 pages of this thread, but I was hoping to get a simple answer since I'm too lazy to read another 38 pages right now...

Both the Pendlay routine and this routine seems very focused on building the Squats. Nothing wrong with that, and understandable since Pendlay works mostly with Olympic lifters and athletes, but for a bodybuilder whose weakness is chest and shoulders, with legs which just blow up looking at a squat rack, how would you modify this routine? Just go to 2-3 x 5 (1-2 x 3), then do a light 5 x 5 bench workout on Wednesday (which might be excessive volume given the MP 5 x 5)?

Also, some high rep work is beneficial for hypertrophy in terms of metabolic effects along with the progressive tension overload, so is it feasible to add in a set of 15-20 reps to - in this instance - Monday's chest and Wednesdays shoulder workout?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Blade_HST]

I should add in that this is a pretty advanced power/bodybuilder weighing 250lbs at 5'10" and 10ish% bodyfat currently. He was a powerlifter in his younger days, WSB experience, and dabbling with some various routines over the years with periods of great progress. He is strong in deadlifts, chins and squats, but due to a past shoulder injury cannot do flat bench. Low incline bench is fine, though - but strength is mediocre in both this and overhead pressing exercises. Some rehab work of rotators and trigger point therapy of surrounding muscles have pretty much cured any pains or aches in this area, fortunately - so this shouldn't be limiting strength.

 

[big perm]

Question....Last Thursday I was due to start my 8th week of the 5X5, but my wife decided to have our baby two weeks early. Because of this I have taken a week off to care for her and the baby but am eager to get back into the swing of things.

I plan to return to the gym tomorrow (7 days later and 10 days since last lifting) How should I handle the return....should I jump right back into the 8th week weights and reps, or start over?

 

[Guinness5.0]

Ok, I've read the first 10 pages of this thread, but I was hoping to get a simple answer since I'm too lazy to read another 38 pages right now...

Both the Pendlay routine and this routine seems very focused on building the Squats. Nothing wrong with that, and understandable since Pendlay works mostly with Olympic lifters and athletes, but for a bodybuilder whose weakness is chest and shoulders, with legs which just blow up looking at a squat rack, how would you modify this routine? Just go to 2-3 x 5 (1-2 x 3), then do a light 5 x 5 bench workout on Wednesday (which might be excessive volume given the MP 5 x 5)?

Also, some high rep work is beneficial for hypertrophy in terms of metabolic effects along with the progressive tension overload, so is it feasible to add in a set of 15-20 reps to - in this instance - Monday's chest and Wednesdays shoulder workout?

Thank you in advance.

This is a hipshot response so take it as such...

I'd guess that maybe this isn't the program for where you're at. Are you a competing BB'er who would be HURT in a show by more leg mass? If so then you might look elsewhere. However, if your whole upper body is lagging and you have no contests in the near future, this program ought to add mass all over. You could play with it from there, de-prioritizing legs down the road.

My belief is that the body best grows systemically and relying on squats as your core movemetn makes the other movements more effective. IOW, to most efficiently add mass to your upper body, you still gotta do all the core stuff like squats and deads.

Maybe you'll get a better answer from Madcow2.

Also, after a run of this you could most definitely transition into higher rep ranges - this program is meant to be a piece of your training pie, not the whole thing. It excels at adding strength to your core lifts which will carry over into higher rep ranges as well. But 5's are great for hypertrophy for many people.

 

[Guinness5.0]

Question....Last Thursday I was due to start my 8th week of the 5X5, but my wife decided to have our baby two weeks early. Because of this I have taken a week off to care for her and the baby but am eager to get back into the swing of things.

I plan to return to the gym tomorrow (7 days later and 10 days since last lifting) How should I handle the return....should I jump right back into the 8th week weights and reps, or start over?

Congrats on the new additon to the fam .

I'd start the volume phase over (if another 5x5 run is what you were planning on) w/ your new PRs set for week 3. You've deloaded over the course of the week so IMO the next logical step is a new run.

 

[Blade_HST]

My belief is that the body best grows systemically and relying on squats as your core movemetn makes the other movements more effective. IOW, to most efficiently add mass to your upper body, you still gotta do all the core stuff like squats and deads.

I'm sorry, but I'd have to disagree. There is just no evidence of such a systemic response, although there is an overall growth effect from the direct stress squats and deadlifts put on upper body muscle - this is not hormonal, though. This BB will be doing his deadlifts, the only question here - and I understand that the general consensus is not to mess with "the program[tm]" - is how to intelligently restructure some variables of the schedule to target weak points, given that one understands the underlying principles. Weak point targetting is an integral part of successful coaching IMO. I completely agree that squats should be a foundation of any training program, but in this specific instance, this is already a strong point, and we want to maintain squats while increasing focus to his horizontal and vertical pressing movements - something applicable to a football player or boxer even.

I guess I will do some experimentation with exchanging some DE bench work on the bench with the light squats (or front squats) on Wednesday, and probably reduce the 5 x 5 to 2-3 x 5 on Monday unless someone else has any suggestions or experiences.

Thank you for your input, though, it is appreciated and noted.

 

[Guinness5.0]

I and I understand that the general consensus is not to mess with "the program[tm]"

Yeah but that's most of the people on THIS board who want to mess with it don't understand WHY they'd need to change it. Sounds to me like you do. I'd LOVE to see what happens when someone who has a clue adds stuff like DE work or bands or whatever.

Is this person or you gonna have a journal anywhere? I'd like to see what you two end up with. I haven't moved beyond the basics - full ROM, regular rep speed (for the most part) and no accomadating resistance.

Thank you for your input, though, it is appreciated and noted.

Well I don't think I helped much, but it's the thought that counts, right?

 

[Blade_HST]

I guess that is up to him if he wants to do a journal, I don't have the time to post journals for all my clients. I'll let you know if he does, though - and also how it works out for him after the first 4 week phase.