Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[blut wump]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I got my ass demolished in the gym today. Today ends the 4th week of the single-factor for me, and I wasn't able to row for 2 reps what I did for 5 on Monday. I was totally fucking drained today and I had to cut out my close-grip benching. Since I'm forced to take a week off next week due to travelling, I think it'll do me a ton of good. My diet is so low-calorie though that it may a huge contribution to me feeling like a complete bum today.
Reading journals and everything on here and descriptions of the 5x5, it seems as though one of the most important factors is eating with caloric-excess, as even madcow says himself. With my main goal of losing 50 pounds of fat but also getting myself to a nice, muscular body, I hope this 5x5 allows me to meet that goal. I'd like to be doing more cardio on my cardio bike but my legs get demolished when doing HIIT while also squatting as much as I am. I wasn't able to increase my bench today, so I get discouraged and need something to blame and hope it's my diet since I'm kicking my own ass as hard as I possibly can. Is it even possible for me to expect to make hulking gains or to gain muscle while I still have such a large amount of fat to lose (21-24% bodyfat)? I suppose I'm talking out of my ass and just need some advice since I feel like a total waste right now.

Hey, Siamesedream, I think you're skinny at 21-24%.

Seriously, though, it's a very fine balancing act between working off that fat and growing muscle at the same time. At those bodyfat levels it most definitely can be done. Doing it while persuing a harsh diet might be another matter. If you are on a harsh cutting diet then you are moving that sliding scale way over into catabolism and growing muscle will be much harder. You have to decide how rapidly you want that fat to melt away. I go for slow and steady and I try to feed the beast to grow muscle and accept that my weight isn't always going down.

It sounds to me that you're doing the right things with the exercise. I have found that when I decide to drop a lot of weight by eating way fewer calories then my lifts start to fall.

With any luck a week of deloading will help a lot. Try to do some exercise rather than none at all.

 

[Guinness5.0]

Yeah don't get discouraged until the week off. If you still feel like ass after the rest then up the cals a bit.

You're asking a lot of yourself by doing a demanding program and using a restrictive diet. It'd be wierd if it was never tough like that.

 

[Island Son]

bump

 

[blut wump]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

hmmm.. i think i get it now

i'll tell u what i interpreted.
1) warm ups are done for any ammount of sets till you feel sufficiently warmed up. Reps to be kept at 5.

2) 1x5 and 5x5 are 2 different things

3)weight increases made each successive week.

4)Wednesday squat is suppose to be easy

The way i feel atm is that i can keep doing friday squats. I seem to be just a bit sore from wednesday but can still do 1x5. Reckon i should leave the entire friday workout for deload and intensity instead of cutting it out? or will this lead to overtraining? I just cant seem to accept that working out 2 times a week will actually be better than my old 6x a week workouts!

and the image i attached, where can i upload it so everyone can see it?

Thanks Guiness5.0 been a big help

1) If you are someone who likes to take a huge quantity of very light warmups then make some kind of mental distinction between pure warmup and semi-working warmups. Personally, I discount anything less than around 40% as pure warmup. For these do whatever floats your boat. After that point, for the 1x5 exercises, essentially you should do a 5x5 with weight increasing to a top set. I hope that's clear: the 1x5 exercises are a ramped 5x5 rather than a flat 5x5.

2) Yes. The 5x5 exercises are a flat 5x5 after you've done your warmups. You'll probably end up doing more actual sets, including the warmups. The weight is going to be lower than your top 1x5 set, for obvious reasons.

3) Insert your current best effort for 1x5 and for 5x5 into the first of the last two weeks of your Volume Phase. Ramp up to those weights in the earlier weeks. Beat them in the final Volume week.

4) Wednesday squat is about 15-20% of your Monday squat. Maybe in week1 you'd start it at around 15% and increase it more slowly so that at the end of the Volume phase it's closer to 20%.

Of course you can still do 1x5. Choose the weight appropriately.

During the Deload/Intensity Phase, you have the choice of the two protocols. They each work well.

 

[Dr Pump]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

1) If you are someone who likes to take a huge quantity of very light warmups then make some kind of mental distinction between pure warmup and semi-working warmups. Personally, I discount anything less than around 40% as pure warmup. For these do whatever floats your boat. After that point, for the 1x5 exercises, essentially you should do a 5x5 with weight increasing to a top set. I hope that's clear: the 1x5 exercises are a ramped 5x5 rather than a flat 5x5.

2) Yes. The 5x5 exercises are a flat 5x5 after you've done your warmups. You'll probably end up doing more actual sets, including the warmups. The weight is going to be lower than your top 1x5 set, for obvious reasons.

3) Insert your current best effort for 1x5 and for 5x5 into the first of the last two weeks of your Volume Phase. Ramp up to those weights in the earlier weeks. Beat them in the final Volume week.

4) Wednesday squat is about 15-20% of your Monday squat. Maybe in week1 you'd start it at around 15% and increase it more slowly so that at the end of the Volume phase it's closer to 20%.

Of course you can still do 1x5. Choose the weight appropriately.

During the Deload/Intensity Phase, you have the choice of the two protocols. They each work well.

Big thanks Blut Wump.

my only concern is point three

3) Insert your current best effort for 1x5 and for 5x5 into the first of the last two weeks of your Volume Phase. Ramp up to those weights in the earlier weeks. Beat them in the final Volume week.

i can just get 1x5 with 80kg and just get 5x5 with 75kg. That is, final rep is last one i can possibaly do by myself. For instance next week can i make 1x5 84 and 5x5 79? My smallest weight jumps possible is 4kg due to lack of disks. And say i completed my new weight, the week after that my 1x5 is up another 4kg and same with the 5x5. And the trend goes on until i have to deload. Is this right?

Thanks again

 

[blut wump]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Big thanks Blut Wump.

my only concern is point three

3) Insert your current best effort for 1x5 and for 5x5 into the first of the last two weeks of your Volume Phase. Ramp up to those weights in the earlier weeks. Beat them in the final Volume week.

i can just get 1x5 with 80kg and just get 5x5 with 75kg. That is, final rep is last one i can possibaly do by myself. For instance next week can i make 1x5 84 and 5x5 79? My smallest weight jumps possible is 4kg due to lack of disks. And say i completed my new weight, the week after that my 1x5 is up another 4kg and same with the 5x5. And the trend goes on until i have to deload. Is this right?

Thanks again

If you begin the program with PRs of 80Kg for 1x5 and 75Kg for 5x5 then, assuming you are running a 4-week Volume phase, you'd intend for these, or a shade better, to be your week 3 targets. If you make the week3 weights, you'd increase for week4.

In weeks 1 and 2 you'd go a lot lighter with week 2 somewhere between the target in week3 and a very comfortable week1 weight. Think of the four weeks as Easy-Medium-Hard-Harder and choose the weights appropriately for the early weeks. Some people have run longer than four weeks for a Volume phase to build up their level of conditioning.

If you prefer to be breaking records each week as a general way of working out then maybe the Single-Factor version might be better suited for you. There's a link to it on the Table of Contents of this thread. Anotherbutters has an excellent log of his own progress on the Single-Factor version.

 

[anotherbutters]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Thanks B-Dub.

I think everyone should start off on the single factor! Here me out... I see a lot of questions about how to implement the dual factor and when weights are mentioned, they're often fairly low, indicating that the person hasn't been lifting long. I'm a culprit of this too - I started off on the dual factor because I didn't know any better.

When someone starts lifting, the gains come quickly for the first year or two. The single factor is perfect for these guys and will pack on muscle quickly. It's easy to follow and if you miss a few days here or there, there are no dire consequences.

But for someone who has been lifting for a year or two, the single factor isn't sufficient any more and the dual factor needs to be used. The gains are probably slower and you need to follow the schedule and choose your weights carefully so that you don't blow your 9 week cycle.

If you think of a sliding scale from newbie to experienced lifter, the single factor is at one end, the dual factor is at the other, and there's a transition period in the middle. Determining where you are on that scale and whether the single or dual factor is more applicable to you is impossible without testing yourself.

So I recommend that everyone starts on the single factor, which is here again: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15. The person should stay on the single factor until they stall for a couple of weeks. That is the thing that determines when they move into the transition phase (as I like to think of it), which I'd base on the information here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658227&postcount=235. And that phase leads you into doing the dual factor as and when you need it. The progression from single to dual factor should be driven by the results from each week's workout, i.e. real feedback, not the person deciding they're 'experienced'.

Sorry, this wasn't meant to sound like a rant and it wasn't directed at anyone in particular! I just think real feedback is a useful way of determining where you should be in the 5x5 program as a whole. Hell, even experienced lifters might do well on the single factor for a couple of months if they're new to these particular lifts, e.g. BB'ers used to isolation exercises. That's why I'd recommend everyone start at the beginning.

 

[blut wump]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Excellent post AB.

You've reminded me of an article at Higher, Faster Sports covering an athlete's progress from Beginner to Elite and the differences in training the progress forces on one to continue to progress. I don't agree with all of it but it's worth a read.
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/pathofchampions.html

 

[Jim Ouini]

Nice post another-blutter

 

[anotherbutters]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Excellent article B-Dub. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

It's a shame the 5x5 table of contents goes straight into DF rather than taking you along path from beginner to advanced, from SF to DF.