Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[TheOak84]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

dear madcow,

can you give me an example routine for when i finish the 5x5?

im confused about how much volume to use and the frequency...

and how long should i stay on it? i dont think i took a long enough break between each 5x5 routine (only 3 weeks)

i think after this my body can take a rest from all this squatting

many thanx

 

[KhorneDeth]

First off, terrific thread here. I've gone a couple cycles of the 5x5 to great excitement and progress before taking a few weeks off due to life schedule.

I'm getting back into it soon and my question is regarding the replacement of back squats with front squats. My issue is two-fold:

1) the only gym I have semi-convenient access to (read: close to home and FREE) does not have any type of real squatting apparatus.... only a damn smith machine. I've been squatting steadily in the smith for about a year now, but the more I read the more I want to get away from this practice and squat entirely free-weight. With nowhere to rack the bar, this leaves me with variations like hack, zercher, front, etc. Of these, I'm assuming fronts are the best alternative to normal ATG back squats -- please correct me if I'm wrong.

2) assuming front squats are the next best substitute, my second concern is that I've never in my life performed them! I've read elsewhere from madcow and others that there's nothing to do but just start ultralight and gradually build solid form and technique.

So my question then is: can I substitue the 3x week smith-squat training with 3x (or 2x?) week front squat training? Namely, can I perform the rest of the Starr 5x5 routine as normal, while learning and improving with the front squat? If so, how should things be adjusted (since obviously loading/deloading factors will be drastically altered)?

If this is not a desirable approach, how/what type of training routine should I try to set up to emphasize my attempts to learn a new movement while avoiding the typical 1x wk lifting of standard BB routines? From taking the past few weeks off, I'm currently deloaded and ready for anything.

Open to suggestions!

-- KhorneDeth

Edited to add, I found this in a recent post by Madcow:

As an experiment, if I was serious about front squatting - I'd heal up first and then start light and gradually increase week to week. Maybe even start at 135 for reps (yeah I know it's really low but you are not building strength but conditioning your body for the movement as this seems to be the issue). You could add this in at the end of a workout or as a warmup and I doubt it would have much effect on your real lifts. Gradually build it up and I'd bet you'll be handling heavy weights in the movement without problem within 2 months. Try twice a week at first (no failure or anything just work through the range in warmup) and then as it gets more significant you might have to factor its impact into your programming.

This seems like sound advice, but would you advocate eventually replacing smith back squats entirely, rather than just "factoring its impact"? (At least, until I convince them to spring for a power rack, hehe). And in the meantime, would you advocate continuing to use the smith machine while training the 5x5?

 

[blut wump]

You're going to have to bite the bullet at some time and start doing free squats. Despite the drop in weight and I know it'll be a big one, free weight front squats will be an order of magnitude better for you than the Smith machine.

Do you have a couple of workout partners who are in the same position who could act as a squat rack to get the bar up onto your shouders?

If you can make the break from the Smith machine your lower body is going to have a brief hard time adjusting to squatting free. You're going to have to spend some time using the stabilizer muscles and you'll probably have to spend at least a month and maybe two before you'll be ready to run the 5x5 again. Maybe it'd be worth doing a run of the single-factor while the legs adjust.

I don't know whether you've already read this post but it covers the past four to five months for me after leaving the Smith machine
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5090747&postcount=12

The good news is that I can now squat ATF without wraps more than I can bench and with wraps I'm back to 400 breaking parallel. So, over the two movements I was previously doing on the Smith I'm back to where I was weightwise before I'd ever touched the 5x5 seven months ago. All that time just undoing the Smith work and bringing the rest of my muscles up to par. The sooner you stop using it, the better.

 

[Lesaman69]

Hey Madcow2, watch out:
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=15;t=354

I think this review will be very interesting, and as i hope, ridiculous.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Hey Madcow2, watch out:
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=15;t=354

I think this review will be very interesting, and as i hope, ridiculous.

Given that Starr's 5x5 is pretty time tested - probably far more so than any BBing program and it's variants have seen overwhelming success from novice to elite athletes over the years, I really doubt a good or bad review on a BBing site is going to change much.

It's not meant to be a comprehensive hypertrophy program. For BBing purposes, it's basically an offseason foundation cycle or something that one would run periodically in their macro training plan during periods where they are looking to add size and fundemental strength. All it does is increase strength in a valid range for hypertrophy on exercises that stimulate a lot of adaptation in the body, if you eat, you put on muscle - generally a lot as the strength gains tend to be fairly dramatic for those unnused to this style of program. A lot of the strength (specifically neural efficiency) will carry over into higher rep ranges and result in some nice hypertrophy later on too outside this program. That's kind of the point of accumulation/intensification or efficient/proficient type training as Colin put it (should have copied his post as it was useful). It's certainly not meant to be done forever or as the only program and the purpose is to introduce people to proper training (periodization, workload manipulation) and management of intensity, volume, and frequency - sort of break down BBing voodoo something that HST does too.

So to that end and it's effectiveness, it doesn't really require a rubber stamp. The base program is a tool and the purpose is to give someone a tool that gets results, teaches, and gets them interested in learning more. I've certainly never billed it as the "last program you need" and there are a lot of reasons why planning periodic variation in training will result in supperior progress.

Plus, the idea is that the base program is gradually adapted to the individual in terms of tolerances (i.e. there's a reason I won't ever throw up percents and why there is more advanced info at the bottom of my description to give people access to the wheels and cogs so to speak). I kind of punt on novices too and provide zero for beginners. A periodized program is really most useful to upper intermediate lifters and beyond, I just read an abstract the other day somewhere presenting empirical evidence that linear training (a la the non-periodized version) produces supperior strength gains in the untrained so that's something else to take into account. It's just not ever going to be all things to all people in a single design. No program can be and this is the job of a coach or someone who is their own coach.

So - the HST is a good program. I've said this many many times and encouraged people to try it simply because it's based on the way the body works (something of a rarity in BBing) and allows for some higher rep work and more targeted assistance work both of which are nice additions following a foundation style program like the 5x5. Bryan is pretty sharp - I believe he's familiar with this program. If you look at the template, there is a lot of similarity in the base methods employed. This is more a pure strength and bulking program than HST. For a BBer the 5x5 is a tool and his macro training should incorporate the strategic uses of a variety of tools.

Anyway - that's been my message since day 1. I think just about anyone who knows what they are talking about would agree with me. Glance at the TOC and you'll see the majority is not related to the 5x5 specifically but more training and methods in general to try to give people some exposure.

Anyway - everybody else's questions have to wait. I have to work for now. Be back soon.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Hey Madcow2, watch out:
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=15;t=354

I think this review will be very interesting, and as i hope, ridiculous.

Reading through some of those programs real quick gave me a headache. HST I get but some of the others made my head swim. I'm sure once you sit down and go through it they're not that complicated but man...

I remember starting 5 x 5 the first time I had to bring a cheat sheet to the gym the first couple weeks, and I read over the monster thread like 10 or 15 times (luckily it was only like 15pgs back then )

Now, I can almost explain it when someone asks me what I'm doing (I do that finger quote thing a lot, though)

 

[Lesaman69]

@madcow2.

I meant this post:
"Vicious, it would be awesome if you'd review Bill Starr's 5x5 Routine. I'll post a link to a huge thread over on EliteFitness that encompasses everything on the routine. I'd love to see what you have to say about the program, especially since all the empirical evidence points to it being awesome for both strength and size, not to mention explosiveness (an athlete's dream) if you choose to incorporate the olympic lifts.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215"

I waited for the 5x5 "review" by vicious. And as i thought, i didnt´get disappointed, his answer is up. He now showed an optimization of the dual factor 5x5. What an jackass.

With every post, he shows more and more idiotic thoughts. Just another 100lbs expert.

Hmm, isn't this more of a SST question?

Short Optimization Technique

If you want to make 5x5 REALLY sing, then pre-empt your 5x5 cycle with a 2 to 3 week EDT-style phase in order to jack up mitochondrial density and raise up potential anabolic vs. catabolic energy state. (Try doing with pulse-style exercises.) During this period, eat big and emphasize a carb load. Then give yourself about 5-7 days to reset your CNS partially, and *then* start out on 5x5. Makes your glycogen stores are extremely high going into 5x5.

When you get into 5x5, your strength will take off. But, you'll also notice big size gains from the get-go, if you eat like a linebacker. The upside is that your LBM to fat ratio should be terrific as well.

Yeah, I have a lengthy interpretation of 5x5. In short, it has to do with how E-C decoupling basically comes from two factors (elevated rate coding and sarcomere microstrain), and how 5x5, through cluster mechanism, keeps both within a "normal" level, allowing a continuance of an acclimation process whereby the target load's effective necessary rate coding will be significantly lowered over a 6-10 week time frame.

Anyway, it'll eventually go into a weird, 2nd generation tweak of HST that's going to combine cluster-density training, EDT, and metabolic workouts, using a three variable time table which will decouple mechanical strain, metabolic adaptations, and nutrient repartioning stimulated from metabolic work.

Then again, it's baseball season and I'm really worried about the A's catching up to the Angels. Maybe after October?

 

[MR Pink]

Madcow,

I don't know if this question has been asked before (I'm only at page 15 of this thread and want to start monday with this routine)

For the alternative deload/intensity phase you wrote the following:


Alternative Deload/Intensity:
This is really the one that most people should be doing. If you don't handle the other correctly you can blow your program but I didn't want to switch it and confuse people.

Week 5 and on switch to 3x3 and drop the Friday workout altogether. Week 5 weights are the same as the final week of volume. Over the next 2-3 weeks increase increase the weight workout to workout if you get all 9 reps. If you don't get all the reps, week the weight constant. You'll likely be able to move straight back into another volume phase after this is complete.

Monday:
Oly squats: 3x3
Bench: 3x3
Rows: 3x3

Wednesday (or move this workout to Thursday if you'd like)
Light Oly Squats (70% of monday): 3x3
Deadlifts: 3x3
Military Press: 3x3
Chins:3x3

My question: Do I only have to do the 3x3 throughout this phase or are there still 1x3 days as given in your core discription? This question is regarding the intensity phase not the deloading phase

Other questions:

If I can't do 5x5 pull ups and only be able to hit 5 reps the first 3 sets...should I do the pull ups with a little help from a spotter or finish the last 2 sets on a lat pull down machine

Do you lock out your elbows with the military's?

And are the pr's you set in weeks 3 and 4 based on your 1 rm (the one you had before this routine) or on the 5x5 you could do before this routine?

Thanks

 

[Madcow2]

So, I'll answer the few questions outstanding from the last few days over the weekend. I'm just too slammed right now.

 

[TheOak84]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

So, I'll answer the few questions outstanding from the last few days over the weekend. I'm just too slammed right now.

awesome, ill wait