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Bill L says that Durabolin is best for females
- Thread starter Realgains
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No WarLobo, you are correct in your thinking. As long as you avoid large spikes of test, a premenopausal woman can get away with decent doses of the stuff. The down side of that is the activity of aromatase in this class of females is also pretty high. So you'll get side effects directly from the test (including lengthening of the vocal chords), as well as DHT sides (clit enlargement, acne, hairloss) and you may also get sides from increased estrogen. It will depend a lot on how much peripheral bodyfat the woman carries. I can't tell you how much of the extra test will go the route of aromatase conversion in a female, but it should certainly sop up some of the test/DHT.
Realgains, for aromatase reasons as well as the inefficiency of esters and pulsatile considerations/metabolism, you can't directly compare 70mg endogenous test production to 70mg of IM esters. But your average female with naive androgen receptors will certainly make good gains on 70mg per week of short acting esters. As discussed recently in another thread (I use the word discuss loosely LOL), it takes anywhere from 125-200mg per week of test ester replacement to maintain normal test levels in castrated males. And of course, different esters have different molecular weights, so 100mg of prop is not the same test dose as, say 100mg of enathate. But I'm sure you already know this, but I'm reiterating it for those folks that aren't aware of these subtleties.
As little as 25mg deca per week can cause permanent voice deepening and increased facial hair in postmenopausal women over a 12 week period. It's unclear to me how much of these sides are related to low estrogen levels, so it may not extrapolate to premenopause. But I would not consider deca to be a 'safe' roid. In fact, at doses of 75+ mgs per week, I would not consider ANY AAS to be 'safe' for women if you want to avoid permanent sides (except possibly Anavar). This is the best reason to use orals or short acting esters. Smaller, more frequent shots would be ideal.
Realgains, for aromatase reasons as well as the inefficiency of esters and pulsatile considerations/metabolism, you can't directly compare 70mg endogenous test production to 70mg of IM esters. But your average female with naive androgen receptors will certainly make good gains on 70mg per week of short acting esters. As discussed recently in another thread (I use the word discuss loosely LOL), it takes anywhere from 125-200mg per week of test ester replacement to maintain normal test levels in castrated males. And of course, different esters have different molecular weights, so 100mg of prop is not the same test dose as, say 100mg of enathate. But I'm sure you already know this, but I'm reiterating it for those folks that aren't aware of these subtleties.
As little as 25mg deca per week can cause permanent voice deepening and increased facial hair in postmenopausal women over a 12 week period. It's unclear to me how much of these sides are related to low estrogen levels, so it may not extrapolate to premenopause. But I would not consider deca to be a 'safe' roid. In fact, at doses of 75+ mgs per week, I would not consider ANY AAS to be 'safe' for women if you want to avoid permanent sides (except possibly Anavar). This is the best reason to use orals or short acting esters. Smaller, more frequent shots would be ideal.
Iron Queen
New member
MS -
You really amaze me when it comes to the knowledge you have of everything. We are really privileged to have you on this board... Thanks again for spending time here (and on AF) because you've taught me a ton!!!
--IQ
You really amaze me when it comes to the knowledge you have of everything. We are really privileged to have you on this board... Thanks again for spending time here (and on AF) because you've taught me a ton!!!
--IQ
MS ...Dr. Scuggs at www.newhopemed.com uses small doses of nandrolone for post meno women and he seem to get great results with no sides.?
For real, I would be very interested to find out what Dr Scruggs calls a low dose. He suggests 50-100mg per week for serious bodybuilders, half of this for women that just want to look good, and "low doses" for post menopausal women. This sounds about right to me. I'm guessing low doses would be less than 25mg per week.
Dose of test and ester is WarLobos department LOL. It depends on sooooo many factors is that all I can say is to start with a low dose of a fast acting ester, and work your way up. Individual variation in bodyfat, aromatase activity, receptor density and sensitivity will all impact on how much a woman can take (just like in males). It's just that the bar is lowered for females. If you want to guarantee absolutely NO SIDES then a female should not use AAS at any dose or ester. So clearly one's goals become important in deciding how to progress. Some sides (temporary or permanent) are inevitable with time and dose. Postmenopausal women have often already got deepened, cracking voices, increased facial hair and relatively larger clit compared to their youth. These masculine characteristics are inevitable if a chick lives long enough!
So none of that helps ya design a cycle for a female novice. Test prop every other day (15-30mg) should be OK, but is a pain in the butt to administer. Not only literally, but you need to be able to make up a sterile dilution. If you can somehow get Adnerderm or Testoderm patches, these would be my pick. They need to be cut into smaller patches and 'stuck' to the skin, but they deliver the most natural and physiological doses of test commercially available. The minimization of test spikes with these patches is really sensible for females IMHO. For any of the longer acting IM esters, I suggest a single injection followed by a washout period to wait for sides. For instance, a single shot (half a vial) of Sust 250. After 3 weeks, if all is well then you could try a 125mg shot on weeks one and three, then do another wash out period. If all goes well, then bump it up to 125mg every 2 weeks for as long as sides are acceptable. Then it can be bumped up again if needed. I would be very surprised if a novice female couldn't make great gains on 125mg Sust every 2 weeks......As you can see, the main thing is to not be in a hurry for results. If a female has a show in 12 weeks, then she should go natty, or accept the risk of permanent virilization with test. Or splash out and get some Anavar for cutting. Well that's one woman's opinion anyway.
Dose of test and ester is WarLobos department LOL. It depends on sooooo many factors is that all I can say is to start with a low dose of a fast acting ester, and work your way up. Individual variation in bodyfat, aromatase activity, receptor density and sensitivity will all impact on how much a woman can take (just like in males). It's just that the bar is lowered for females. If you want to guarantee absolutely NO SIDES then a female should not use AAS at any dose or ester. So clearly one's goals become important in deciding how to progress. Some sides (temporary or permanent) are inevitable with time and dose. Postmenopausal women have often already got deepened, cracking voices, increased facial hair and relatively larger clit compared to their youth. These masculine characteristics are inevitable if a chick lives long enough!
So none of that helps ya design a cycle for a female novice. Test prop every other day (15-30mg) should be OK, but is a pain in the butt to administer. Not only literally, but you need to be able to make up a sterile dilution. If you can somehow get Adnerderm or Testoderm patches, these would be my pick. They need to be cut into smaller patches and 'stuck' to the skin, but they deliver the most natural and physiological doses of test commercially available. The minimization of test spikes with these patches is really sensible for females IMHO. For any of the longer acting IM esters, I suggest a single injection followed by a washout period to wait for sides. For instance, a single shot (half a vial) of Sust 250. After 3 weeks, if all is well then you could try a 125mg shot on weeks one and three, then do another wash out period. If all goes well, then bump it up to 125mg every 2 weeks for as long as sides are acceptable. Then it can be bumped up again if needed. I would be very surprised if a novice female couldn't make great gains on 125mg Sust every 2 weeks......As you can see, the main thing is to not be in a hurry for results. If a female has a show in 12 weeks, then she should go natty, or accept the risk of permanent virilization with test. Or splash out and get some Anavar for cutting. Well that's one woman's opinion anyway.
Snow White
New member
This is a GREAT Thread!
I can only speak from personal experience here. I am currently on a cycle of Sust & Primo. I dropped the anavar finally convinced I hate pills! I do an initial shot of 1/2 250 then the following week a shot (full vial) of primo. I find if I space the shot of sust to once very month, and the primo to once every 10-12 days. I've experienced very little sides- just some acne and voice droppage. Would cyp/prop be better than sust??
I can only speak from personal experience here. I am currently on a cycle of Sust & Primo. I dropped the anavar finally convinced I hate pills! I do an initial shot of 1/2 250 then the following week a shot (full vial) of primo. I find if I space the shot of sust to once very month, and the primo to once every 10-12 days. I've experienced very little sides- just some acne and voice droppage. Would cyp/prop be better than sust??
Snow White
New member
Hummm
Nothin' like rapid fire questions... How does it reduce harshness and H20?? Never had a water retention problem so I really cant answer that. Can you? My vial is the standard spanish primo, ya know brown glass, green writing. I think that's 100mg. And yes, primo and sust make for a lovely combo. What I meant was, would it be better to just use prop/cyp by itself rather than the sust?
Nothin' like rapid fire questions... How does it reduce harshness and H20?? Never had a water retention problem so I really cant answer that. Can you? My vial is the standard spanish primo, ya know brown glass, green writing. I think that's 100mg. And yes, primo and sust make for a lovely combo. What I meant was, would it be better to just use prop/cyp by itself rather than the sust?
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I believe the spanish primo is 50 not 100mg.
Interesting post. I enjoy prop and have been afraid of cyp. Funny thing, but I have this mindset of stepping completely over the edge when I here any test but prop.
As I was reading, I found it very interesting about the winni. I have been a huge victim of the men saying this is really what you need. It made me hard as hell, but satcked with primo. I did winni d E5D. I still had that crack in the voice. I was considerable lucky as it went somewhat back to normal.
I do not know what to think of this post. I agree with Warlobo. If I had the right mentoring, I wouldn't have touched the stuff. Now, with everything going on medically, nothing makes me feel better.
Everyone has a view. Everyone is different. There are definate things for a female to stay away from and others that they are told to take that are bad as well. So, who wins?
Interesting post. I enjoy prop and have been afraid of cyp. Funny thing, but I have this mindset of stepping completely over the edge when I here any test but prop.
As I was reading, I found it very interesting about the winni. I have been a huge victim of the men saying this is really what you need. It made me hard as hell, but satcked with primo. I did winni d E5D. I still had that crack in the voice. I was considerable lucky as it went somewhat back to normal.
I do not know what to think of this post. I agree with Warlobo. If I had the right mentoring, I wouldn't have touched the stuff. Now, with everything going on medically, nothing makes me feel better.
Everyone has a view. Everyone is different. There are definate things for a female to stay away from and others that they are told to take that are bad as well. So, who wins?
Snow White
New member
Spatts
You are correct, it's not a typical cycle. I choose primo, which btw is 100mg, for it's harding and slimming effect on me. When I cycle, I tend not to eat a lot and thus the primo has a muscle sparing effect as well. I am also a big deca fan, but find that stacking deca with sust is waaay too harsh and that combo makes me retain a ton of h20. Last year, when I stacked winnie with primo, my face got a very drawn, pulled look that I didn't care for too much although the body got real hard, lean and veiny.
So, I find that the sust (duratest) and the primo is an ideal combo for me. My body reacts well to this particular combo. I was even thinking of spacing out the sust at a shorter interval, say every 15 days to see what happens.
You are correct, it's not a typical cycle. I choose primo, which btw is 100mg, for it's harding and slimming effect on me. When I cycle, I tend not to eat a lot and thus the primo has a muscle sparing effect as well. I am also a big deca fan, but find that stacking deca with sust is waaay too harsh and that combo makes me retain a ton of h20. Last year, when I stacked winnie with primo, my face got a very drawn, pulled look that I didn't care for too much although the body got real hard, lean and veiny.
So, I find that the sust (duratest) and the primo is an ideal combo for me. My body reacts well to this particular combo. I was even thinking of spacing out the sust at a shorter interval, say every 15 days to see what happens.
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