ATD is it useless afterall?

[macrophage69alpha]

Of course anyone taking a anabolic compound like the compounds you named run the risk of getting gyno.

the issue is that they erroneously beleived that an aromatase inhibitor would stop it (or that those compounds could not cause gyno-which advertsing literature for many of them did/does indicate). Of course when you are looking at progestenic suppression an aromatase inhibitor is also not going to be all that effective restoratively. Unless running a test or dbol only cycle, use of an AI post cycle ALONE is not advisable (even then its borderline). POST CYCLE should at the very least include a SERM (tamoxifen or clomid), an AI can be a nice addition (essential if you plan on using HCG- IMO)

 

[AX_Ryan]

I do believe DS was flawed in the Superdrol writeup on the gyno issue. Now I have ran it multiple times with no problems I have def seen cases where it did occur.

 

[AX_Ryan]

I sent this thread over to a chemist and hope they can chime in with their thoughts.

 

[i am what i am]

Great posts macrophage. My only question is why we are allowing for this guy to push his supplements on us without valid evidence to support the statements he is spitting out to us. Try your advertisements else where.

 

[KD1]

So taking anabolic agents that dont aromatize can still cause gyno? Even if SERMs are used post cycle?

 

[AX_Ryan]

Great posts macrophage. My only question is why we are allowing for this guy to push his supplements on us without valid evidence to support the statements he is spitting out to us. Try your advertisements else where.

Because we are a board sponsor and are products are some of the most popular/innovative in the industry. Every point made so far is valid.

Ax releases great products, our newest product is mATD.............

I started this thread not to sell anything. I was not going to start the ATD is not that good threads until the study came about. BUT I have had several PM's about gyno and libido from standalone ATD use. so I decided to start posting.

Triple J was one the the members that PM'ed me and asked me to post in this section.

 

[AX_Ryan]

So taking anabolic agents that dont aromatize can still cause gyno? Even if SERMs are used post cycle?

With a SERM used I have never seen an issue. (with SD, emax or PP)

 

[macrophage69alpha]

With a SERM used I have never seen an issue.

even with a SERM and AI gyno can present. Particularly when progestins are involved.

Using a SERM (nolva) and AI does decrease the risk of gynecomastia with progestins, though does not ameliorate it.

Progestins can be ultra suppressive requiring extensive post cycle therapy, there are a number of cases where nandrolone based suppression extended for up to 18 months after cessation with multiple SERM and HCG interdictions. This is not all that common, but its wise to keep in mind that progestins CAN (not neccesarily will be for you) very suppressive of the HPGA.

 

[AX_Ryan]

Here is a reply that I was asked to post from ALR author of "Building the Perfect Beast".



1. oestrogen suppression is the cause of loss of libido. Its quite common for those on cycle taking a gram of test a week to get libido loss when using letrozole (why? oestrogen suppression)

This has become a very common assumption by many normally based upon the errors of ATD research. Odd that the same and extensive additional research shows the opposite as well, yet most ATD sellers only quote the part that best fits their needs. This is of course why this and the potential class action law suit against its vendors has been so well supported by consumer reports and credited research references.

However, in one of many studies the lack of estrogen seems to lead to a sexual preference change due to ATD use. This is a good thing?

Horm Behav. 1991 Sep;25(3):323-41. Related Articles, Links

Adult partner preference and sexual behavior of male rats affected by perinatal endocrine manipulations.

Brand T, Kroonen J, Mos J, Slob AK.

Department of Endocrinology and Reproduction, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, Erasmus University, Rotterdam, The Netherlands.

Intact adult male rats, in which aromatization of testosterone to estradiol was prevented pre- and/or neonatally by ATD (1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione), were repeatedly tested for partner preference behavior (choice: estrous female vs active male). In consecutive tests increasing preference scores for the female were found. Neonatal ATD males showed significantly lower preference scores for an estrous female than controls or prenatal ATD males. Prenatal ATD caused preference scores only slightly lower than those of controls. Ejaculation frequencies were markedly reduced or even absent in neonatal ATD males. Prenatal ATD treatment only had no or a moderately lowering effect on ejaculation frequency. Lordosis behavior of adult intact males was more facilitated following neonatal ATD treatment than following prenatal ATD treatment. In a number of tests the serotonergic drug 8-OH-DPAT was injected prior to testing for sexual partner preference and copulatory behavior. DPAT significantly increased preference for an estrous female in all groups of males when interaction was possible, but had no effect when sexual interaction was prevented by wire mesh. DPAT was able to increase the number of ejaculators in nonejaculating groups (i.e., perinatally ATD-treated males). "Premature ejaculations," i.e., ejaculations with the first intromission, were frequently observed with DPAT treatment in all groups of males. In conclusion, the availability of neonatal estrogen (derived from testosterone) organizes, at least partially, the preference for an estrous female normally shown by adult male rats. The lack of neonatal estrogen causes males to be less masculinized, both in partner preference behavior and ejaculatory behavior, and less defeminized in lordosis behavior.


2. mainly because they are getting gynecomastia from compounds that do not aromatize, like superdrol, m1t, ergomax, 1test, etc... as a note taking an aromatase inhibitor with a compound like this (or one like winstrol, tren, alone) will destroy your lipids and libido.

This is certainly true (though progestins like trenbolone have their own libido issues totally unrelated to estrogens) but more who are non-androgen/ATD users, than those who are androgen/ATD users, report gyno.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

ryan,
was that cut and pasted from elsewhere, because otherwise its a terrible response.

1. oestrogen suppression is a side effect OF ALL AROMATASE INHIBITORS(letrozole, anastrozole, exemestane) . this study just shows what everyone already knows that oestrogen suppression has effects on libido. This is not news to anyone familiar with aromatase inhibitors, nor the fact that they have a greater impact during development.

2. That is not reflective of the most posts on the forums, however it is certainly possible that contaminated or poorly synthesized batches of ATD might have other steroid compounds that could cause gynecomastia or due to the fact that oral use will cause peaks and troughs in both T and E, that could lead to such issues. Particularly with variable oral bioavailability even between dosing. Animal studies used 250mg oral twice a day to achieve significant suppression (macques). It is also quit possible with progestins for gyno to present well after cessation of cycle due to suppression and PRL upregulation.