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ATD is it useless afterall?

AX_Ryan

New member
Currently the most popular post cycle therapy ingriedient is a compound called ATD (Our ATD product is Rebound XT). Some companies list ATD as 3, 17-keto-etiochol-triene or 3,17-Dioxoetioallocholan-1,4,6-triene. These same products have claims like “ clinical trials show our product increases bioavailable testosterone significantly higher (over 400%) and faster (within 2 weeks) than any other testosterone booster in the supplement industry.”

Sure, ATD based products have been clinically shown to increase total and free testosterone as much as 400 or even 600%. And we have read countless times that it is the best aromatase inhibitor (anti-estrogen) on the planet. But is it doing anything really?

Clinical studies are nice when they are paid for by a manufacturer, but there are two questions we need to consider in the world the rest of us live in:

1) If testosterone is the hormone that makes us horny (increased libido), then why is it that users with testosterone levels at 400-600% above normal have such a low libido? It is very common for people using ATD products to completely lose their sex drive.

2) Since ATD is such a wonderful anti-aromatase (anti-estrogen), we need to ask why so many users are reporting gynocomastia? (Gyno is caused by high estrogen levels or hormone environments that allow estrogen activity to exceed testosterone activity)

Now let’s find out why ATD has the negative side affects that are totally opposite of supposed dramatic testosterone levels? Several studies quoted below will answer these question.

A research team in Amsterdam had an interesting finding related to ATD…
(3) "Rats treated with ATD in both pre- and postnatal periods showed 'bisexual' partner preference.

Regular ATD products may have a sexual preference altering affect upon male mammals.

(4) "When the choice was between an estrous female and an ATD-male, partner PS decreased in all males, most clearly in ATD-males."
(5)"… again revealing the behavioral bisexual nature of these ATD males. A new finding was the much higher locomotor activity of the ATD males compared to controls"

Just because some mammals change sexual preference does not necessarily make it conclusive that humans will. But what about actual human users of ATD having trouble with erections with all of that “extra” testosterone from ATD?

The Department of Endocrinology and Reproduction, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, Erasmus University, Rotterdam, The Netherlands did another study on the affects of ATD on mammals with an increase in total daily dosage that lead to this finding:

(6) "Combined pre- and neonatal ATD treatment resulted in reduced frequency of mounts, intromissions, and ejaculations, as well as a reduced preference for a female over a male"

This appears to be the result of an affect ATD directly has on the body. Bottom line this is not a positive response. But what about all of that extra testosterone (400% more) ATD causes in most users, and why would it have these really negative side affects?

In a study titled "Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding." the answer is clear.

(7) "ATD, has been found to suppress male sexual behavior in T-treated mammals. In our experiment, we first replicated this finding by peripherally injecting ATD (15 mg/day)"

This shows that ATD suppresses normal male functions, but why no new muscle but plenty of gyno if the testosterone levels are so high?

(7) "In all four brain areas binding of T to androgen receptors was significantly decreased in the presence of ATD, suggesting that ATD may act both as an androgen receptor blocker and as an aromatization inhibitor. Competitive binding studies indicated that ATD competes in vitro for cytosol androgen receptors, thus substantiating the in vivo antiandrogenic effects of ATD"

Proof that ATD is not only an anti-androgen, but it competes with all of that 400-600% extra testosterone for binding to the androgen receptors. That means that any amount of estrogen in your body takes over and you get gyno.

(7) "No agonistic properties of ATD were observed either behaviorally or biochemically. Thus, an alternative explanation for the inhibitory effects of ATD on male sexual behavior is that ATD prevents T from binding to androgen receptors.

The negative ATD actions described above might not be experienced by everyone. Anabolic Xtreme does carry a 100% regular ATD based product Rebound XT™ that we stand behind. BUT if you are unsure how your body reacts to ATD or have any doubt, PCT™ is the product you should choose.

PCT™ is not a regular ATD based product…….it works!

Long ago researchers discovered that hydroxylation of ATD at carbon 17 results in a better compound that does not block all the androgen receptors in the whole body like regular ATD. The natural compound is a cousin of ATD made in the brain called 1,4,6-Androstatriene-17-ol-3-one. The only problem was that it was that it had very poor oral bioavailability. So Anabolic Xtreme took this poorly absorbed compound and attached a non liver toxic methyl group to the compound. By attaching the methyl group it makes the compound absorbed very well when taken orally (pill). We named this compound mATD.

**************************STUDIES****************************************


1) Flesinoxan: a prosexual drug for male rats.
Eur J Pharmacol. 1997 Jul 2;330(1):1-9.



Eur J Pharmacol. 1997 Jul 2;330(1):1-9.


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Flesinoxan: a prosexual drug for male rats.

Haensel SM, Slob AK.

Department of Endocrinology and Reproduction, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, Erasmus University and Dijkzigt Academic Hospital, Rotterdam, Netherlands. [email protected]

Two tests were carried out to compare the stimulatory (i.e., prosexual) effects of the 5-HT1A receptor agonists flesinoxan and 8-hydroxy-2-(di-n-propylamino)tetralin (8-OH-DPAT) on sexual behavior in male Wistar rats. Two groups of rats were used: normal males and males with impaired masculine sexual behavior due to neonatal treatment with the aromatase inhibitor 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD). In Experiment 1, flesinoxan (0.3 and 1.0 mg/kg) stimulated ejaculation frequency and number of animals displaying this behavior, both in controls and ATD males. With 0.3 mg/kg flesinoxan ATD males did not differ from controls in ejaculation frequencies. There was a concomitant decrease in latency to first ejaculation. No 'premature' ejaculations (i.e., at first or second intromission) were observed. In Experiment 2, the effects of 0.4 mg/kg 8-OH-DPAT, 0.3, 1.0 and 3.0 mg/kg flesinoxan and saline were tested in two ejaculation series. 'Premature' ejaculations only occurred during first ejaculation series with 8-OH-DPAT in 8 of 10 controls and in 6 of 9 ATD males; it did not occur during flesinoxan treatment nor in the second ejaculation series with 8-OH-DPAT treatment. Thus, flesinoxan stimulates sexual behavior in control rats and in rats with impaired sexual behavior. Unlike 8-OH-DPAT flesinoxan does not render them into 'premature' ejaculators. Therefore, flesinoxan could be considered a prosexual drug for male rats.



(2) Endogenous reproductive hormones and nocturnal rhythms in partner preference and sexual behavior of ATD-treated male rats.
Neuroendocrinology. 1995 Oct;62(4):396-405.



Neuroendocrinology. 1995 Oct;62(4):396-405.


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Endogenous reproductive hormones and nocturnal rhythms in partner preference and sexual behavior of ATD-treated male rats.

Bakker J, van Ophemert J, Timmerman MA, de Jong FH, Slob AK.

Department of Endocrinology and Reproduction, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, Erasmus University, Rotterdam, The Netherlands .

Male rats received subcutaneously silastic capsules, containing the aromatase inhibitor 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD), shortly after birth. Control males were given silastic capsules containing cholesterol. The capsules were removed at the age of 21 days. In adulthood, blood serum was collected early and late in the dark phase of the light/dark cycle (experiment I). Testosterone and luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) fluctuated nocturnally, both in ATD and control males, with highest levels late in the dark phase. FSH levels were significantly higher in ATD males. Nocturnal levels of inhibin, a selective suppressor of pituitary FSH secretion, also fluctuated in both ATD and control males, with lowest levels late in the dark phase. In experiment II, ATD and control males were tested for partner preference behavior in a three-compartment box (choice: sexually active male vs. estrous female) early and late in the dark phase. When gonadally intact, ATD males, but not controls, showed a clear nocturnal rhythmicity in partner preference behavior and sexual behavior. Early in the dark phase, such ATD males preferred the vicinity of and interaction with a sexually active male. Late in the dark phase, this preference for the active male shifted to a preference for the estrous female. Control males preferred the estrous female. After castration and subsequent treatment with testosterone via silastic capsules, which ensured constant blood serum levels, ATD males continued to show their nocturnal rhythms in partner preference behavior and in sexual behavior. Thus, the underlying mechanism of the nocturnal rhythmicity phenomenon is an organizational effect of neonatal ATD treatment rather than an activational effect of fluctuating serum hormone levels.



(3) Increased number of vasopressin neurons in the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) of 'bisexual' adult male rats following perinatal treatment with the aromatase blocker ATD.



Brain Res Dev Brain Res. 1995 Apr 18;85(2):273-9.


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Increased number of vasopressin neurons in the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) of 'bisexual' adult male rats following perinatal treatment with the aromatase blocker ATD.

Swaab DF, Slob AK, Houtsmuller EJ, Brand T, Zhou JN.

Netherlands Institute for Brain Research, Graduate School Neurosciences Amsterdam .

In an earlier article an enlarged subpopulation of vasopressin containing neurons was found in the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) of homosexual men as compared to heterosexuals. The present study investigates the possibility that the number of vasopressin neurons in the SCN and sexual partner preference behavior in male rats are both influenced by sex hormones during brain development. For this purpose, we studied groups of adult male rats that had been treated either prenatally or pre- and postnatally with the aromatase inhibitor ATD (1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione) which blocks the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol. Rats treated with ATD in both pre- and postnatal periods showed 'bisexual' partner preference behavior and appeared to have 59% more vasopressin-expressing neurons in the SCN than the controls. The prenatally treated rats did not differ from the controls. This observation supports the hypothesis that the increased number of vasopressin neurons found earlier in the SCN of adult homosexual men might reflect differences that took place in the interaction between sex hormones and the brain early in development.



(4) Postweaning housing conditions and partner preference and sexual behavior of neonatally ATD-treated male rats.
Psychoneuroendocrinology. 1995;20(3):299-310.



Psychoneuroendocrinology. 1995;20(3):299-310.


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Postweaning housing conditions and partner preference and sexual behavior of neonatally ATD-treated male rats.

Bakker J, van Ophemert J, Slob AK.

Department of Endocrinology and Reproduction, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, Erasmus University, Rotterdam, The Netherlands .

Male rats were neonatally treated with cholesterol or a substance that blocks the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol (1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione: ATD). At weaning (21 days) they were either housed alone or in small groups (2-3 animals) and tested for partner preference behavior (PPB) in adulthood. Choice was between an estrous female and an active male (Part I) and between an estrous female and an ATD-male (Part II). Tests were carried out in a 3-compartment box. Social isolation did not have major effects on PPB except when sexual interaction with the stimulus animals was prevented (Part I). In this case, isolates (ATD and control) showed higher preference scores (PS) for the estrous female and spent less time in the empty middle compartment. When the choice was between an estrous female and an ATD-male, partner PS decreased in all males, most clearly in ATD-males. The latter animals spent more time with the stimulus ATD-male than they had done in previous PPB tests with the normal stimulus male. In contrast to partner preference behaviors, sexual behavior was clearly affected by social isolation. Isolates (ATD and control) displayed lower frequencies of mounts and intromissions. These effects persisted over consecutive tests. Ejaculation was not affected. In conclusion, the present results confirm earlier findings about the significance of neonatal endocrine conditions for the organization of adult PPB in male rats. The presence or absence of social conspecifics after weaning appears to have little influence on adult PPB.



(5) A semiautomated test apparatus for studying partner preference behavior in the rat.
Physiol Behav. 1994 Sep;56(3):597-601.



Physiol Behav. 1994 Sep;56(3):597-601.


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A semiautomated test apparatus for studying partner preference behavior in the rat.

Bakker J, van Ophemert J, Eijskoot F, Slob AK.

Department of Endocrinology and Reproduction, Erasmus University, Rotterdam, The Netherlands .

A semiautomated three-compartment box (3CB) for studying partner preference behavior of rats is described. This apparatus automatically records the rat's time spent in each compartment, as well as the locomotor activity (i.e., the number of visits an animal pays to each compartment). Software was developed for calculating partner preference scores. Behavioral testing in the semiautomated 3CB, which is a modification of an earlier version, is less time consuming and less laborious. Three 3CBs can be observed simultaneously by two trained observers, and the behavioral interactions of three experimental animals with the stimulus animals can be observed and scored by hand. The use of the new apparatus was validated by studying adult partner preference behavior of neonatally ATD-treated male rats. The collected data fully corroborate previous results, obtained in the earlier version of the 3CB, again revealing the behavioral bisexual nature of these ATD males. A new finding was the much higher locomotor activity of the ATD males compared to controls.



(6) SDN-POA volume, sexual behavior, and partner preference of male rats affected by perinatal treatment with ATD.
Physiol Behav. 1994 Sep;56(3):535-41.





Physiol Behav. 1994 Sep;56(3):535-41.


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SDN-POA volume, sexual behavior, and partner preference of male rats affected by perinatal treatment with ATD.

Houtsmuller EJ, Brand T, de Jonge FH, Joosten RN, van de Poll NE, Slob AK.

Department of Endocrinology and Reproduction, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, Erasmus University, Rotterdam, The Netherlands .

The present study investigated 1) the importance of the aromatization process during the perinatal period for the development of the sexually dimorphic nucleus in the preoptic area of the hypothalamus (SDN-POA) of male rats, and 2) the relationship between SDN-POA volume and parameters of masculinization in male rats that were treated perinatally with the aromatase-inhibitor ATD. Males were treated with ATD either prenatally or pre- and neonatally, or with the vehicle. Masculine sexual behavior and partner preference were investigated in adulthood. Thereafter, animals were sacrificed and SDN-POA volume was measured. The SDN-POA volume was reduced in both the prenatally and the pre- and neonatally treated group, with a larger reduction in the latter than in the former group. Combined pre- and neonatal ATD treatment resulted in reduced frequency of mounts, intromissions, and ejaculations, as well as a reduced preference for a female over a male. The SDN-POA size was significantly and positively correlated with frequency of masculine sexual behavior, as well as preference for a female over a male.





(7) Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.
Horm Behav. 1989 Mar;23(1):10-26.



Horm Behav. 1989 Mar;23(1):10-26.


Related Articles, Links


Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.

Kaplan ME, McGinnis MY.

Department of Anatomy, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, CUNY, New York 10029.

The aromatization hypothesis asserts that testosterone (T) must be aromatized to estradiol (E2) to activate copulatory behavior in the male rat. In support of this hypothesis, the aromatization inhibitor, ATD, has been found to suppress male sexual behavior in T-treated rats. In our experiment, we first replicated this finding by peripherally injecting ATD (15 mg/day) or propylene glycol into T-treated (two 10-mm Silastic capsules) or control castrated male rats. In a second experiment, we bilaterally implanted either ATD-filled or blank cannulae into the medial preoptic area (MPOA) of either T-treated or control castrated male rats. With this more local distribution of ATD, a lesser decline in sexual behavior was found, suggesting that other brain areas are involved in the neurohormonal activation of copulatory behavior in the male rat. To determine whether in vivo ATD interacts with androgen or estrogen receptors, we conducted cell nuclear androgen and estrogen receptor binding assays of hypothalamus, preoptic area, amygdala, and septum following treatment with the combinations of systemic T alone. ATD plus T, ATD alone, and blank control. In all four brain areas binding of T to androgen receptors was significantly decreased in the presence of ATD, suggesting that ATD may act both as an androgen receptor blocker and as an aromatization inhibitor. Competitive binding studies indicated that ATD competes in vitro for cytosol androgen receptors, thus substantiating the in vivo antiandrogenic effects of ATD. Cell nuclear estrogen receptor binding was not significantly increased by exposure to T in the physiological range. No agonistic properties of ATD were observed either behaviorally or biochemically. Thus, an alternative explanation for the inhibitory effects of ATD on male sexual behavior is that ATD prevents T from binding to androgen receptors.





Differential effects of aromatase inhibition on luteinizing hormone secretion in intact and castrated male cynomolgus macaques.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1993 Dec;77(6):1529-34.



J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1993 Dec;77(6):1529-34.


Related Articles, Links


Differential effects of aromatase inhibition on luteinizing hormone secretion in intact and castrated male cynomolgus macaques.

Resko JA, Connolly PB, Roselli CE, Abdelgadir SE, Choate JV.

Department of Physiology, Oregon Health Sciences University, Portland 97201-3098.

To understand the role of central aromatization in feedback regulation of LH in nonhuman primates, we treated adult male cynomolgus monkeys with the aromatase inhibitor, 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD). We measured LH, testosterone (T), and ATD in systemic sera of blood samples drawn on a diurnal schedule (0900 and 2100 h). Each animal was bled for 4 pretreatment days from a femoral catheter after which they were divided into the following treatment groups: castrated (Cx), n = 2; Cx + T, n = 6; Cx + T + ATD, n = 6; Cx + ATD, n = 3; and sham operated + ATD, n = 3. Silastic capsules or packets containing T or ATD, respectively, were placed sc between the scapulae at the time of Cx or sham treatment. In T-treated animals, T (20 micrograms/kg body weight) dissolved in propylene glycol was injected im at 2100 h to mimic the diurnal rise of T observed in nonhuman primates. Animals were bled for 2 weeks after which they were killed, and selected brain areas were analyzed for aromatase activity and cytosolic and nuclear androgen receptors. Animals treated with ATD had significantly reduced levels of aromatase activity in selected regions of the hypothalamus, preoptic area, and the amygdala (P < 0.05). Even though ATD inhibited brain aromatase activity, it did not prevent the negative feedback actions of T on LH secretion after Cx. In addition, ATD by itself inhibited LH secretion after Cx and activated brain androgen receptors. These latter effects of ATD seemed to have been mediated through a metabolite. In sham-operated intact males, ATD produced variable surges of LH that were accompanied by elevations of T in the systemic circulation. These differential effects of ATD in intact vs. castrated animals demonstrate the importance of selecting the proper model system to study LH control mechanisms. In the intact animal, aromatization seems to play a role in regulating LH secretion, but the postcastration rise of LH seems to be regulated differently.





Studies on aromatase inhibition with 4-androstene-3,6,17-trione: its 3 beta-reduction and time-dependent irreversible binding to aromatase with human placental microsomes.



Steroid Biochem. 1987 Sep;28(3):337-44.


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Studies on aromatase inhibition with 4-androstene-3,6,17-trione: its 3 beta-reduction and time-dependent irreversible binding to aromatase with human placental microsomes.

Numazawa M, Tsuji M, Mutsumi A.

Tohoku College of Pharmacy, Sendai, Japan.

The metabolism of 4-androstene-3,6,17-trione (AT), previously described as a suicide substrate for aromatase, and its irreversible binding to aromatase were studied by using human placental microsomes. AT was rapidly converted into 3 beta-reduced metabolite (3-OHAT) with an enzyme other than aromatase in the microsomes in the presence of NADPH under either aerobic or anaerobic conditions. The conversion was efficiently prevented by a steroid 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor. 3-OHAT was characterized as a competitive (Ki = 6.5 microM) and irreversible inhibitor of aromatase. Both 14C-labeled AT and 3-OHAT were demonstrated to be irreversibly bound to aromatase probably through a sulfur atom of the enzyme in time-dependent manners in the presence of NADPH, being accompanied with time-dependent losses of the enzyme activity. It was shown that the process of an apparent time-dependent loss of aromatase activity caused by AT even under conditions allowing its 3 beta-reduction should principally depend on the action of the parent inhibitor AT itself and not on that of the metabolite 3-OHAT.





Detection of androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione (6-OXO) and its metabolites in urine by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry in relation to doping analysis.

Biomed Chromatogr. 2005 Nov;19(9):689-95.


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Detection of androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione (6-OXO) and its metabolites in urine by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry in relation to doping analysis.

Van Thuyne W, Van Eenoo P, Mikulcikova P, Deventer K, Delbeke FT.

Doping Control Laboratory, Department of Clinical Biology, Microbiology and Immunology, Ghent University-UGent, Technologiepark 30, B-9052 Zwijnaarde, Belgium.

The metabolism and excretion of androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione after administration of the 'nutritional' supplement 6-OXO was investigated by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry (GC-MS) in full-scan mode. The parent drug androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione and androst-4-ene-6alpha,17beta-diol-3-one and androst-4-ene-6alpha-ol-3,17-dione were detected in the post-administration urine samples. Because androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione is an anabolic steroid and an aromatase inhibitor, this substance is regarded as a doping agent. Hence, a selective and sensitive GC-MS method in selected ion monitoring mode for the detection of the TMS-enol-TMS-ether derivatives of these substances was developed and validated for doping control purposes. The limit of detection (LOD) of the investigated compounds ranged from 5 to 10 ng/mL. Using this method, the detection time for androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione and androst-4-ene-6alpha,17beta-diol-3-one was 24 h, while androst-4-ene-6alpha-ol-3,17-dione could be detected up to 37 h after administration of the dose recommended by the manufacturer.
 
Last edited:
what an unfortunate series innacuracies.

1. people report suppressed libido because of suppressed oestrogen

2. people get gyno because they are using superdrol and other "designer steroids" which are mostly progestins which do not aromatize, using an AI with progestin is not all that useful. Some of these compounds may also have oestrogenic metabolites from sulfation and downstream of 5alpha reduction. also the oral bioavailability issues and the fact that one entire batch of rebound XT was not actually ATD, but instead an incomplete synthesis may have played roles in other cases.

3. homosexual preference among rats is common with all aromatase inhibitors.

4/5. it is nearly retarded logic to assume that because aromatase inhibition in rats causes homosexual preference that it will cause libido problems for the same reason.

6. AGAIN, reduced libido is a normal side effect of significant oestrogen suppression.

7. this study was done prior to the understanding of the impact of aromatase inhibitors, hence some very erroneous conclusions are made, both aromasin and ATD bind to the AR at .2% affinity of DHT as would your 17 hydroxylated and methlyated version, though affinity might be different it would still bind without activity. Now how effective it would bind to aromatase is another question, one which there is no data on. Unless you would like to provide it.



as a note- many of these studies used silastic implants which deliver ATD to the brain, hence very significant oestrogen suppression in the brain. With oral(250mg at 3 times per day), injected and transdermal suppression of oestrogen plasma oestrogen is comparable to aromasin. between 90-95% of plasma oestrogen suppression.
 
I have been off cycle for 6 months, with good sex drive and erections, etc. I tried a topical ATD product and it CRUSHED my sex drive. Plus I felt like crap on it. Luckily it did not create any urges to visit Brokeback Mountain. I dropped that stuff and now things are starting to get back to normal. I am going to run a regular PCT for good measure.
 
as noted above- there have been batches of ATD that contained other than what was claimed, though whether that was part of the issue???. However use of any AI off cycle could cause libido problems as oestrogen suppression will be greater than when on cycle with exogenous aromatics.
 
Triple J said:
I have been off cycle for 6 months, with good sex drive and erections, etc. I tried a topical ATD product and it CRUSHED my sex drive. Plus I felt like crap on it. Luckily it did not create any urges to visit Brokeback Mountain. I dropped that stuff and now things are starting to get back to normal. I am going to run a regular PCT for good measure.
This is the reason we started looking into it. We have sold 10's of thousands of bottles of ATD (Rebound XT). With at least 10 calls a day like this. Every bottle of AX Rebound XT is fully HPLC'd for quality.

Now how inacurate other companies believe this is........we have a study being done at UCLA that will be published next month. So far each one of these findings are true. When that is published you cannot argue that ATD is not all that it is cracked up to be. The same study is being done on mATD so we will see.

Too many users are reporting loss of libido in a product that should increase it big time.
 
if M-atd is an effective aromatase inhibitor it will have the same potential effects on libido. if its not an effective aromatase inhibitor it wont.

the same effects are noted will all aromatase inhibitors whether steroidal or not. Its an issue of oestrogen suppression.
 
So far the libido issues are the exact opposite with mATD. (from what we have seen), but the study should really clear this up.


Horm Behav. 1989 Mar;23(1):10-26.


Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.

Kaplan ME, McGinnis MY.

Department of Anatomy, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, CUNY, New York 10029.

The aromatization hypothesis asserts that testosterone (T) must be aromatized to estradiol (E2) to activate copulatory behavior in the male rat. In support of this hypothesis, the aromatization inhibitor, ATD, has been found to suppress male sexual behavior in T-treated rats. In our experiment, we first replicated this finding by peripherally injecting ATD (15 mg/day) or propylene glycol into T-treated (two 10-mm Silastic capsules) or control castrated male rats. In a second experiment, we bilaterally implanted either ATD-filled or blank cannulae into the medial preoptic area (MPOA) of either T-treated or control castrated male rats. With this more local distribution of ATD, a lesser decline in sexual behavior was found, suggesting that other brain areas are involved in the neurohormonal activation of copulatory behavior in the male rat. To determine whether in vivo ATD interacts with androgen or estrogen receptors, we conducted cell nuclear androgen and estrogen receptor binding assays of hypothalamus, preoptic area, amygdala, and septum following treatment with the combinations of systemic T alone. ATD plus T, ATD alone, and blank control. In all four brain areas binding of T to androgen receptors was significantly decreased in the presence of ATD, suggesting that ATD may act both as an androgen receptor blocker and as an aromatization inhibitor. Competitive binding studies indicated that ATD competes in vitro for cytosol androgen receptors, thus substantiating the in vivo antiandrogenic effects of ATD. Cell nuclear estrogen receptor binding was not significantly increased by exposure to T in the physiological range. No agonistic properties of ATD were observed either behaviorally or biochemically. Thus, an alternative explanation for the inhibitory effects of ATD on male sexual behavior is that ATD prevents T from binding to androgen receptors.


In this summery by Mount Sinai School of Medicine, it is obvious that there is a substantial problem due to testosterone blocked from binding to its receptors thus resulting in decreased normal male behavior patterns. Since testosterone and ATD travel the whole body (like muscles) and potentially blocks all androgen receptors that a more site specific compound similar to ATD would be great if it were specific to the hypothalamus. This would allow for all of that extra testosterone to actually have some male affects (like more muscle, increased libido) instead of reports of gynecomastia (bitch tits).

17a-methyl-17b-hydroxyl-3-keto-delta 1,4,6-etioallocholtriene, better known as MATD, is compound that shares many of the good affects of ATD but none of the potential bad. The structural alteration of methylation is commonly known for increasing oral bioavailablitiy so lower dosages can be applied for a parent compound. (You know, like methylation of boldenone results in methandrostenolone…and a compound many times more active? But what many are unaware of this alteration also decreases the oxo conversion capacity of most aromatization inhibitors. The result is poor binding to aromatase and less effective anti-estrogen. Why is that cool? We already have the ultimate systemic anti-aromatase in PCT called 6-acetoxy-3-hydroxy-17-keto-etioallocholane.

6-acetoxy-3-hydroxy-17-keto-etioallocholane is a new powerful systemic anti-aromatase compound created especially for PCT™ that decreases estrogen levels in males an average of 50% everywhere in the body…including in and around the hypothalamus. And it is effective in a one time daily administration. So the estrogen negative feed-back loop is history. Back to the androgen negative-feed-back loop…

So why create MATD at all?


17a-methyl-17b-hydroxyl-3-keto-delta 1,4,6-etioallocholtriene:. Yes, it is an interesting analog of ATD. It converts to the far more interesting 17a-Methyl-17-OH analog as well. Hmmm! (remember the 17-OH part)

17a-methyl-17b-hydroxyl-3-keto-delta 1,4,6-etioallocholtriene is also most likely the most effective site-specific (like the hypothalamus) androgen receptor modulator. Based upon some animal studies the unique structure of this compound allows for an 80-90% reduction in androgen receptor activity of the hypothalamus, yet only a very small potential for decrease in the rest of the body.


J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1993 Dec;77(6):1529-34.


Related Articles, Links


Differential effects of aromatase inhibition on luteinizing hormone secretion in intact and castrated male cynomolgus macaques.

Resko JA, Connolly PB, Roselli CE, Abdelgadir SE, Choate JV.

Department of Physiology, Oregon Health Sciences University, Portland 97201-3098.

To understand the role of central aromatization in feedback regulation of LH in nonhuman primates, we treated adult male cynomolgus monkeys with the aromatase inhibitor, 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD). We measured LH, testosterone (T), and ATD in systemic sera of blood samples drawn on a diurnal schedule (0900 and 2100 h). Each animal was bled for 4 pretreatment days from a femoral catheter after which they were divided into the following treatment groups: castrated (Cx), n = 2; Cx + T, n = 6; Cx + T + ATD, n = 6; Cx + ATD, n = 3; and sham operated + ATD, n = 3. Silastic capsules or packets containing T or ATD, respectively, were placed sc between the scapulae at the time of Cx or sham treatment. In T-treated animals, T (20 micrograms/kg body weight) dissolved in propylene glycol was injected im at 2100 h to mimic the diurnal rise of T observed in nonhuman primates. Animals were bled for 2 weeks after which they were killed, and selected brain areas were analyzed for aromatase activity and cytosolic and nuclear androgen receptors. Animals treated with ATD had significantly reduced levels of aromatase activity in selected regions of the hypothalamus, preoptic area, and the amygdala (P < 0.05). Even though ATD inhibited brain aromatase activity, it did not prevent the negative feedback actions of T on LH secretion after Cx. In addition, ATD by itself inhibited LH secretion after Cx and activated brain androgen receptors. These latter effects of ATD seemed to have been mediated through a metabolite. In sham-operated intact males, ATD produced variable surges of LH that were accompanied by elevations of T in the systemic circulation. These differential effects of ATD in intact vs. castrated animals demonstrate the importance of selecting the proper model system to study LH control mechanisms. In the intact animal, aromatization seems to play a role in regulating LH secretion, but the postcastration rise of LH seems to be regulated differently.



Post-Cycle (post cycle: The period after any androgen type compound including legal prohormones) is normally inclusive of testicular dysfunction with identical physiological affects to castration (ouch).

In non-human primate studies (castrating humans for research purposes would be a political problem so a close relative to humans is needed) castrated subjects were given ATD with testosterone to see if the ATD actually did prevent the negative feed back actions of administered androgens on the HPTA. In short did ATD actually act as a true pro-PCT compound. Obviously, it failed since it even though it did block aromatization in the critical areas of the hypothalamus. However, there is a metabolite of ATD that specifically acts upon brain androgen receptors. (site-specific meaning it inhibits the androgen negative feed-back but not muscle growth and male traits)

We already handled the estrogen negative feed-back loop with 6-acetoxy-3-hydroxy-17-keto-etioallocholane, so now what is this site-specific metabolite of ATD?

1,4,6-Androstatriene-17-ol-3-one (17-OH-ATD…remember the 17-OH?) is a viable natural metabolite of ATD that has been shown to react with prostatic and hypothalamic androgen receptors. However there was no androgenic activity. Hmmm, site-specific right where it’s needed. So what happens when it is methylated? MATD…powerful site-specific androgen modulation that inhibits the androgen negative feed-back loop without creating false increases in testosterone.

What’s this about False Increases in Testosterone?


Steroids. 1980 Dec;36(6):717-21.

Immunological interference of the synthetic aromatase inhibitor 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) and its metabolite(s) in the radioimmunoassay for testosterone.

Donaldson MD, Forest MG.

Radioimmunoassay (RIA) for testosterone (T) in unchromatographed plasma extracts from ATD-treated rats gave spuriously high values for T. Cross-reaction and chromatographic studies subsequently showed that ATD and, to a much greater extent, its metabolite(s) were responsible for this overestimation. Celite column chromatography proved to be an effective way of separating T from ATD and its product(s) of metabolism.

In some studies the elevation in total testosterone seen from ATD administration was questioned. This appears to be due to ATD conversion metabolites testing as testosterone itself.
 
Ya mac I know all that, have used letro primarily both on and off-cycle and for PCT. I also ran 6-oxo once for PCT (which I believe is an altered form of ATD), with good results, and there is a product called T3 which also works pretty well in my experience. This topical ATD though, I never had an ai make me feel so "shutdown", that I felt I needed to run a follow-up PCT as a result of the AI's negative effects. Based on my "experiment", I think Ryan's research has some valid points.
 
what are you selling........................
 
you are reposting the same studies.

the first with the same erroneous conclusion. ATD does not inhibit T binding, suppression of oestrogen reduces AR receptor expression in those tissues.

with respect to your claims about 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxyl-3-keto-delta 1,4,6-etioallocholtriene (taken directly from ALRI who developed this compound), there are no studies to back up these claims.

with respect to RIA anaylsis, its been proven to be quite innaccurate.
 
macrophage69alpha said:
you are reposting the same studies.

the first with the same erroneous conclusion. ATD does not inhibit T binding, suppression of oestrogen reduces AR receptor expression in those tissues.

with respect to your claims about 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxyl-3-keto-delta 1,4,6-etioallocholtriene (taken directly from ALRI who developed this compound), there are no studies to back up these claims.

with respect to RIA anaylsis, its been proven to be quite innaccurate.
Well there also no studies proving any of this wrong. We should have the UCLA study in the next few weeks. Now once that is in there really is no disputing it. University certified and published.

Take Triple J from above. There are lots and lots of users reporting this every day.

WE SELL ATD, but feel it may be unfit topical or oral for post cycle or standalone. I can post voicemail after voice mail from customers reporting these sides. - none with mATD.
 
AX_Ryan said:
Well there also no studies proving any of this wrong. We should have the UCLA study in the next few weeks. Now once that is in there really is no disputing it. University certified and published.

what kind of logic is that: there are no studies proving it wrong so its true???????


as far as your study:
what peer reviewed journal is it being published in?

how exactly did you get the human subjects review board (IRB) to approve use on humans?

Use of a compound that is actually illegal under the DSHEAS? (btw- dont care about this but any university would)




oh and BTW- one study does not make claims irrefutable.
 
What studies have you done to show ATD is usefull and backs up its claims.

1. All of the info will be in the study.

2. You have to give it to AX for dishing out 40k for a study because consumers are calling in daily with negative reports on ATD.

3. They do not care about DSHEA but ATD and mATD are DSHEA compliant and both have been filed by AX. Same with Phera-Plex.
 
AX_Ryan said:
What studies have you done to show ATD is usefull and backs up its claims.

1. All of the info will be in the study.

2. You have to give it to AX for dishing out 40k for a study because consumers are calling in daily with negative reports on ATD.

3. They do not care about DSHEA but ATD and mATD are DSHEA compliant and both have been filed by AX. Same with Phera-Plex.

A. ATD is a clinically and pharmacologically proven steroidal aromatase inhibitor, albeit one with poor oral bioavailability.

1. ok, so a non answer
2. not really, its an advertising ploy. Just like the 6-oxo study, never actually published. Like the ZMA study, never actually published, etc.etc..
3. they are not in the database
 
btw- M-atd may be effective (regardless of the study- the drawbacks of any study merely being pointed out given the nature of the compound and the restrictions of university testing as well as peer review issues) but a number of erroneous statements have been regarding the efficacy and action of ATD. ATD is a proven steroidal AI backed by over 100 published and peer reviewed studies.
 
macrophage69alpha said:
btw- M-atd may be effective (regardless of the study- the drawbacks of any study merely being pointed out given the nature of the compound and the restrictions of university testing as well as peer review issues) but a number of erroneous statements have been regarding the efficacy and action of ATD. ATD is a proven steroidal AI backed by over 100 published and peer reviewed studies.
Sure I can agree with you on that. It used to be our number one AI. Just recently we began to question the facts that other companies (big ones) were publishing studies that claimed huge libido increases when used standalone. We were seeing the exact opposite from our customers.

The questions as stated above we are getting aswers for are:

1) If testosterone is the hormone that makes us horny (increased libido), then why is it that users with testosterone levels at 400-600% above normal have such a low libido? It is very common for people using ATD products to completely lose their sex drive.

2) Since ATD is such a wonderful anti-aromatase (anti-estrogen), we need to ask why so many users are reporting gynocomastia? (Gyno is caused by high estrogen levels or hormone environments that allow estrogen activity to exceed testosterone activity). Gyno on ATD standalone or post cycle.

Thank you for being polite throughout..........
 
1. oestrogen suppression is the cause of loss of libido. Its quite common for those on cycle taking a gram of test a week to get libido loss when using letrozole (why? oestrogen suppression)

2. mainly because they are getting gynecomastia from compounds that do not aromatize, like superdrol, m1t, pheraplex, 1test, etc... as a note taking an aromatase inhibitor with a compound like this (or one like winstrol, tren, alone) will destroy your lipids and libido. And you need to keep in mind that there was at least one bad batch of RXT, eventually, recalled by designer supps.
 
macrophage69alpha said:
And you need to keep in mind that there was at least one bad batch of RXT, eventually, recalled by designer supps.
True but never by AX. And AX has sold 10X more than DS mainly in retail stores. We are just finding these things out from AX customers. Most people are running it stand alone and getting these sides (gyno, libido)

Of course anyone taking a anabolic compound like the compounds you named run the risk of getting gyno.
 
AX_Ryan said:
Of course anyone taking a anabolic compound like the compounds you named run the risk of getting gyno.

the issue is that they erroneously beleived that an aromatase inhibitor would stop it (or that those compounds could not cause gyno-which advertsing literature for many of them did/does indicate). Of course when you are looking at progestenic suppression an aromatase inhibitor is also not going to be all that effective restoratively. Unless running a test or dbol only cycle, use of an AI post cycle ALONE is not advisable (even then its borderline). POST CYCLE should at the very least include a SERM (tamoxifen or clomid), an AI can be a nice addition (essential if you plan on using HCG- IMO)
 
I do believe DS was flawed in the Superdrol writeup on the gyno issue. Now I have ran it multiple times with no problems I have def seen cases where it did occur.
 
Great posts macrophage. My only question is why we are allowing for this guy to push his supplements on us without valid evidence to support the statements he is spitting out to us. Try your advertisements else where.
 
So taking anabolic agents that dont aromatize can still cause gyno? Even if SERMs are used post cycle?
 
i am what i am said:
Great posts macrophage. My only question is why we are allowing for this guy to push his supplements on us without valid evidence to support the statements he is spitting out to us. Try your advertisements else where.
Because we are a board sponsor and are products are some of the most popular/innovative in the industry. Every point made so far is valid.

Ax releases great products, our newest product is mATD.............

I started this thread not to sell anything. I was not going to start the ATD is not that good threads until the study came about. BUT I have had several PM's about gyno and libido from standalone ATD use. so I decided to start posting.

Triple J was one the the members that PM'ed me and asked me to post in this section.
 
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KD1 said:
So taking anabolic agents that dont aromatize can still cause gyno? Even if SERMs are used post cycle?
With a SERM used I have never seen an issue. (with SD, emax or PP)
 
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AX_Ryan said:
With a SERM used I have never seen an issue.
even with a SERM and AI gyno can present. Particularly when progestins are involved.

Using a SERM (nolva) and AI does decrease the risk of gynecomastia with progestins, though does not ameliorate it.

Progestins can be ultra suppressive requiring extensive post cycle therapy, there are a number of cases where nandrolone based suppression extended for up to 18 months after cessation with multiple SERM and HCG interdictions. This is not all that common, but its wise to keep in mind that progestins CAN (not neccesarily will be for you) very suppressive of the HPGA.
 
Here is a reply that I was asked to post from ALR author of "Building the Perfect Beast".



1. oestrogen suppression is the cause of loss of libido. Its quite common for those on cycle taking a gram of test a week to get libido loss when using letrozole (why? oestrogen suppression)

This has become a very common assumption by many normally based upon the errors of ATD research. Odd that the same and extensive additional research shows the opposite as well, yet most ATD sellers only quote the part that best fits their needs. This is of course why this and the potential class action law suit against its vendors has been so well supported by consumer reports and credited research references.

However, in one of many studies the lack of estrogen seems to lead to a sexual preference change due to ATD use. This is a good thing?

Horm Behav. 1991 Sep;25(3):323-41. Related Articles, Links

Adult partner preference and sexual behavior of male rats affected by perinatal endocrine manipulations.

Brand T, Kroonen J, Mos J, Slob AK.

Department of Endocrinology and Reproduction, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, Erasmus University, Rotterdam, The Netherlands.

Intact adult male rats, in which aromatization of testosterone to estradiol was prevented pre- and/or neonatally by ATD (1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione), were repeatedly tested for partner preference behavior (choice: estrous female vs active male). In consecutive tests increasing preference scores for the female were found. Neonatal ATD males showed significantly lower preference scores for an estrous female than controls or prenatal ATD males. Prenatal ATD caused preference scores only slightly lower than those of controls. Ejaculation frequencies were markedly reduced or even absent in neonatal ATD males. Prenatal ATD treatment only had no or a moderately lowering effect on ejaculation frequency. Lordosis behavior of adult intact males was more facilitated following neonatal ATD treatment than following prenatal ATD treatment. In a number of tests the serotonergic drug 8-OH-DPAT was injected prior to testing for sexual partner preference and copulatory behavior. DPAT significantly increased preference for an estrous female in all groups of males when interaction was possible, but had no effect when sexual interaction was prevented by wire mesh. DPAT was able to increase the number of ejaculators in nonejaculating groups (i.e., perinatally ATD-treated males). "Premature ejaculations," i.e., ejaculations with the first intromission, were frequently observed with DPAT treatment in all groups of males. In conclusion, the availability of neonatal estrogen (derived from testosterone) organizes, at least partially, the preference for an estrous female normally shown by adult male rats. The lack of neonatal estrogen causes males to be less masculinized, both in partner preference behavior and ejaculatory behavior, and less defeminized in lordosis behavior.


2. mainly because they are getting gynecomastia from compounds that do not aromatize, like superdrol, m1t, ergomax, 1test, etc... as a note taking an aromatase inhibitor with a compound like this (or one like winstrol, tren, alone) will destroy your lipids and libido.

This is certainly true (though progestins like trenbolone have their own libido issues totally unrelated to estrogens) but more who are non-androgen/ATD users, than those who are androgen/ATD users, report gyno.
 
ryan,
was that cut and pasted from elsewhere, because otherwise its a terrible response.

1. oestrogen suppression is a side effect OF ALL AROMATASE INHIBITORS(letrozole, anastrozole, exemestane) . this study just shows what everyone already knows that oestrogen suppression has effects on libido. This is not news to anyone familiar with aromatase inhibitors, nor the fact that they have a greater impact during development.

2. That is not reflective of the most posts on the forums, however it is certainly possible that contaminated or poorly synthesized batches of ATD might have other steroid compounds that could cause gynecomastia or due to the fact that oral use will cause peaks and troughs in both T and E, that could lead to such issues. Particularly with variable oral bioavailability even between dosing. Animal studies used 250mg oral twice a day to achieve significant suppression (macques). It is also quit possible with progestins for gyno to present well after cessation of cycle due to suppression and PRL upregulation.
 
macrophage69alpha said:
ryan,
was that cut and pasted from elsewhere, because otherwise its a terrible response.

1. oestrogen suppression is a side effect OF ALL AROMATASE INHIBITORS(letrozole, anastrozole, exemestane) . this study just shows what everyone already knows that oestrogen suppression has effects on libido. This is not news to anyone familiar with aromatase inhibitors, nor the fact that they have a greater impact during development.

2. That is not reflective of the most posts on the forums, however it is certainly possible that contaminated or poorly synthesized batches of ATD might have other steroid compounds that could cause gynecomastia or due to the fact that oral use will cause peaks and troughs in both T and E, that could lead to such issues. Particularly with variable oral bioavailability even between dosing. Animal studies used 250mg oral twice a day to achieve significant suppression (macques). It is also quit possible with progestins for gyno to present well after cessation of cycle due to suppression and PRL upregulation.

It was cut from an e-mail that was sent 20 mins ago to me.
 
Just to be clear I was not trying to start, or get in the middle of a pissing contest but I did want to learn more about my ATD results which were not as expected, and miserable in comparison to other estrogen suppression products I have used. Without any firm data one can only speculate if the product was suppressing too much estrogen, or if the issue was complicated by androgen receptor blocking as Ryan's data indicate a possibilty. I do believe there was something detrimental going on beyond estrogen suppression. It looks like the jury is still out on this issue but in my clinical setting the verdict is in.

My theory on progestins may apply to this product. Younger bros with plenty of AR's are not as often affected negatively by progestins, in terms of the dreaded "deca dick". As one gets older you lose ARs. At some point you lose enough ARs that your system becomes more delicate, and competitive inhibition from other AR lockers (like deca - 2x as strong affinty for the AR as T) can block that DHT signal to your dick, and you get deca dick. Thus the advice to always run the T with the deca, or even 2x or more the deca. For some even this will not help any longer. Another factor is when androgen reception is blocked dopamine is inhibited, prolactin goes up, etc.

Since I was probably one of the older bros running this ATD product, and I was running it natural, I was more susceptable to any androgen blocking effects. Cause everything I experienced while on the ATD was like a mini "crash" post-cycle. I got off it before my physique or work-outs were were effected too much. I am not back to normal yet but seem to be recovering.
 
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First of all, props to both Ryan and Macro for a very good debate on issues regarding supps that are used by the BBing comunity. This was handled on a very professional manner.
It is great to see this kind of thread going on. Not because of any selling wars or product boosting, but just to show the research of the products and knowledge of the manufacturers.

Tanks again guys, K for both!
 
all steroidal ai's bind to the AR, very weakly

6-Methylenandrosta-1,4-diene-3,17-dione (FCE 24304): a new irreversible aromatase inhibitor.

Giudici D, Ornati G, Briatico G, Buzzetti F, Lombardi P, di Salle E.

Farmitalia C. Erba, R.&D./Oncology, Nerviano (MI), Italy.

FCE 24304 (6-methylenandrosta-1,4-diene-3,17-dione), a new irreversible aromatase inhibitor, has been identified and characterized in vitro and in vivo. The compound caused time-dependent inactivation of human placental aromatase with a t1/2 of 13.9 min and ki of 26 nM. When tested in PMSG-treated rats, ovarian aromatase activity was reduced 24 h after dosing by both the s.c. (ED50 1.8 mg/kg) and the oral (ED50 3.7 mg/kg) routes. No interference with 5 alpha-reductase activity nor any significant binding affinity for estrogen receptor was found. Slight binding affinity for the androgen receptor (RBA 0.2% of DHT) was observed.
 
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1984 Dec;59(6):1088-96. Related Articles, Links


Inhibition of aromatization stimulates luteinizing hormone and testosterone secretion in adult male rhesus monkeys.

Ellinwood WE, Hess DL, Roselli CE, Spies HG, Resko JA.

Experiments were conducted to examine the role of aromatization in the control of LH and testosterone secretion in adult male rhesus monkeys. Treatment of male monkeys (n = 7) with sc Silastic packets containing the aromatase inhibitor 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) resulted in 1.5- to 3-fold elevations in serum LH and testosterone concentrations in six of seven animals. Concurrent treatment of ATD-treated monkeys with small quantities of estradiol-17 beta (n = 4) abolished the stimulatory effect of ATD. During ATD treatment, peripheral estradiol levels were reduced by 30% and hypothalamic aromatase activity, as determined in vitro, was reduced 80-90%. The lack of androgenic or antiandrogenic activity of ATD was demonstrated by its inactivity in either a mouse seminal vesicle bioassay or a highly sensitive penile spine bioassay. Furthermore, ATD did not react with rat prostatic or hypothalamic cytosol androgen receptors. 1,4,6-Androstatriene-17-ol-3-one, a possible metabolite of ATD in vivo, did react with prostatic and hypothalamic androgen receptors, but possessed no antiandrogenic activity in either bioassay. Thus, treatment of adult males with an aromatase inhibitor that inhibits both peripheral and central aromatization, and which has no apparent antiandrogenic activity, results in stimulation of LH and testosterone secretion. These data demonstrate that aromatization of androgens to estrogens plays an important role in negative feedback regulation of LH secretion and maintenance of normal testosterone levels in adult male primates.

btw- its funny how the data from this study has been misintepreted with respect to the 17hydroxyl metabolite (the one mentioned in the ALRI- now AX- sales pitch)
 
krishna said:
So who's right? What's this about ATD binding to AR's? If that's true, then that's no good!
We are running a study on this exact topic through UCLA right now. We should have the documents back in a few weeks.

The last thing we want to do is sell ATD if it causing problems.
 
Just to be clear about something. Ryan you are paying only $40k for a human clinical trial at UCLA? That's quiet a bargain. I know because we've supplied material, and much more was spent, for human studies on our product, at much smaller Universities. A study is only considered significant with 60 or more participants. The IRB at that school would certainly have requirements that would exceed more that $650 per person. I'll be curious to see the published results.
 
Ulter said:
Just to be clear about something. Ryan you are paying only $40k for a human clinical trial at UCLA? That's quiet a bargain. I know because we've supplied material, and much more was spent, for human studies on our product, at much smaller Universities. A study is only considered significant with 60 or more participants. The IRB at that school would certainly have requirements that would exceed more that $650 per person. I'll be curious to see the published results.
Well I am just a rep so I am not paying for anything. But yes that is what AX has told me. Luckily they have a good friend at the school.

Like I said. That is all I know and was told the results should be back in about a month. You bet I will post them up ASAP. It could show mATD is crap. Who knows?

Just because I am curious what products or studyies did your company run? I really do not know how they work.
 
I will also appoligize. I just noticed your store sells ATD. I did not know any other sponor sold ATD.

I will pull this thread if you like...............my intentions were not to stir anything up with other sponsors.
 
I wouldn't worry about it. There is nothing here that affects our store, product, or it's sales. But thanks for offering.

The press release for the most recent study is not going to hit businesswire until next week. So I can't talk about it.

This was the last press release about a study we supplied material for. We didn't "sponsor" the study. That would lead people to believe the results may be tainted. It's not as impressive when a company sponsors a study as it is when the researchers pay for it themselves.

http://www.genengnews.com/news/bnitem.aspx?name=1124984XSL_NEWSML_TO_NEWSML_WEB.xml
 
To me a company supplying or sponsoring a study is impressive. Seeing that 99% of all supplement companies don't care or just don't think about it.

Congrats to you guys................It is rare.
 
I didn't mean that it's not a wonderful gesture on the part of the company. I meant that the medical and scientific community doesn't recognize it as significant with less than 60 participants and if the study was paid for by the supplier of the material. If you look at Asta Zeneca's results on the aromatese inhibitor study on Arimidex it showed no affect on lipids. But the independent studies that followed showed significant affects on lipids. It's things like that that make people in the field leary of results from self sponsored studies.
 
what an unfortunate series innacuracies.

1. people report suppressed libido because of suppressed oestrogen

2. people get gyno because they are using superdrol and other "designer steroids" which are mostly progestins which do not aromatize, using an AI with progestin is not all that useful. Some of these compounds may also have oestrogenic metabolites from sulfation and downstream of 5alpha reduction. also the oral bioavailability issues and the fact that one entire batch of rebound XT was not actually ATD, but instead an incomplete synthesis may have played roles in other cases.

3. homosexual preference among rats is common with all aromatase inhibitors.

4/5. it is nearly retarded logic to assume that because aromatase inhibition in rats causes homosexual preference that it will cause libido problems for the same reason.

6. AGAIN, reduced libido is a normal side effect of significant oestrogen suppression.

7. this study was done prior to the understanding of the impact of aromatase inhibitors, hence some very erroneous conclusions are made, both aromasin and ATD bind to the AR at .2% affinity of DHT as would your 17 hydroxylated and methlyated version, though affinity might be different it would still bind without activity. Now how effective it would bind to aromatase is another question, one which there is no data on. Unless you would like to provide it.



as a note- many of these studies used silastic implants which deliver ATD to the brain, hence very significant oestrogen suppression in the brain. With oral(250mg at 3 times per day), injected and transdermal suppression of oestrogen plasma oestrogen is comparable to aromasin. between 90-95% of plasma oestrogen suppression.

thanks for that comment after 2 minutes of research i already knew more about ai's then most brainwashed people crying about no libido so it is bad therefore..if you get low libido from using it it has most likely done its job you should just lower the doses then but instead some idiots buy overexpensive ai's where they take 3 pills at day and still have libido(because it isn't strong enough)
 
Ya mac I know all that, have used letro primarily both on and off-cycle and for PCT. I also ran 6-oxo once for PCT (which I believe is an altered form of ATD), with good results, and there is a product called T3 which also works pretty well in my experience. This topical ATD though, I never had an ai make me feel so "shutdown", that I felt I needed to run a follow-up PCT as a result of the AI's negative effects. Based on my "experiment", I think Ryan's research has some valid points.

where is your logic man...no estrogen=no libido if you have more libido on other ai's it means they are weaker and will cost you more if atd is to strong lower the dose and you are fine+ get 300% cheaper
 
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