Are Squats on the Smith Machine bad for your knees?

[mt]

Not having a workout partner makes it hard to squat safely anywhere close to failure. Being 6'2" if find it impossible to stay erect as the reps get more difficult and I'm always worried that if I try that one last ball-busting rep I won't come back up and get crushed under the bar or have to throw it off my shoulders. The Smith machine will enable me to keep good posture and if I can't come back up it's pretty easy to engage the hooks while in the bottom position. I've always been told that because of the fixed straight up and down motion that Smith squats are bad for the knees and causes "knee shearing" and if I place my feet more forward from the bar to prevent that it takes the stress off the quads and places it more on the glutes.

Any opinions on this?

 

[Silent Method]

Not if done correctly. Place your feet foreword of the bar such that your shins will not move foreward your base of support when you do the exercise.


Be forewarned, though, smith squats are terrible for squats. It can be an effective exercise, but it is not a squat.

 

[psychedout]

As silent method said, when done correctly, they shouldn't be bad for your knees. Any exercise done correctly shouldn't be bad for you.

I might suggest front squats in a power rack as an alternative if your scared to go to failure. If you fail, you can just set the bar down in front of you.

 

[mt]

Be forewarned, though, smith squats are terrible for squats. It can be an effective exercise, but it is not a squat.

I do not understand this statement. "Smith squats are terrible for squats" though you admit it is an exercise which can be effective but it is not a squat. What is it? If I do a movement in which both feet are firmly planted on the ground and I lower my hips to a position where my legs bend at a 90 degree angle or less isn't that a squat movement no matter if I have a weight on my back or if I'm in a Smith machine or planting rice....

 

[mt]

I might suggest front squats in a power rack as an alternative if your scared to go to failure. If you fail, you can just set the bar down in front of you.

I find front squat just so terribly uncomfortable that I can't concentrate on the exercise. Plus my gym has no power rack.

 

[Silent Method]

I do not understand this statement. "Smith squats are terrible for squats" though you admit it is an exercise which can be effective but it is not a squat. What is it? If I do a movement in which both feet are firmly planted on the ground and I lower my hips to a position where my legs bend at a 90 degree angle or less isn't that a squat movement no matter if I have a weight on my back or if I'm in a Smith machine or planting rice....

What I meat was simply that the smith squat is a different beast than a barbell squat.


Have you ever tried safety squats? You need a power rack and an "ox yolk" barbell. The ox yolk allows you do balance the bar in position on your upper back without touching it with your hands. You use your hands to hold onto the beams of the rack in front of you. They can assist in form, steadying yourself through the movement, and assist in extension as you reach failure.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Smith machine squats are fine. Just don't put your feet forward like alot of people do. just do them as a usual squat (it will take a few tries to get your feet in the right position).

Your shins can come forward a little bit...your knees should go just a little past your toes, just like a regular squat.

The tough part is that it's just tough to get the footing right...but once you do...they're pretty much just as good as regular squats. Not EXACTLY as good...but better than risking fuckin yourself up.

 

[Silent Method]

Bulldog, for the most part I agree with you. Placing your feet too far in front of the bar is not good. However, unless you're a miget you simply must place your feet in front of the smith bar to some extent or your form will suffer. If you don't simply fold your torso over too much, the knees will take an unnecessary sheer force.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Bulldog, for the most part I agree with you. Placing your feet too far in front of the bar is not good. However, unless you're a miget you simply must place your feet in front of the smith bar to some extent or your form will suffer. If you don't simply fold your torso over too much, the knees will take an unnecessary sheer force.

That's no different from regular squats. As long as you drop the bar straight down when doing regular squats...the smith machine will not alter your form at all.

 

[maccer]

but surely you are not having to stabilize yourself as you would have to with normal squats so its not as good for core strength???

 

[Bulldog_10]

but surely you are not having to stabilize yourself as you would have to with normal squats so its not as good for core strength???

You still have to support your lower back on your own...so as long as you're keeping your abs tight (TA muscle) you should be fine. Just gotta keep your form on point and concentrate.

 

[maccer]

fair enough

 

[wutangnomo]

Smith squats are perfectly fine. Anyone who says they are not squats is incorrect. It's essentially the same exercise with a bit of assitance and ease of mind when it comes to failure.

Occassionally I do smith squats and what I find is it helps isolate the quad muscle MUCH better than regular squats. Regular squats hit more of the hams and glutes, not the quads which is where a smith squat is more beneficial.

Also, with smith squats one can do MORE weight, so it all balances out. As long as your form is right any exercise is beneficial.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Smith squats are perfectly fine. Anyone who says they are not squats is incorrect. It's essentially the same exercise with a bit of assitance and ease of mind when it comes to failure.

Occassionally I do smith squats and what I find is it helps isolate the quad muscle MUCH better than regular squats. Regular squats hit more of the hams and glutes, not the quads which is where a smith squat is more beneficial.

Also, with smith squats one can do MORE weight, so it all balances out. As long as your form is right any exercise is beneficial.

Smith squats don't emphasize the quads more...unless you want them to. It's all about feet position. Most people put their feet too far forward, essentially turning it into a hack squat, which hits the quads better.

The muscles you work more or less all depend on the horizontal distance of the joints (knees and hips) from the bar.

 

[The_Eviscerator]

Not having a workout partner makes it hard to squat safely anywhere close to failure. Being 6'2" if find it impossible to stay erect as the reps get more difficult and I'm always worried that if I try that one last ball-busting rep I won't come back up and get crushed under the bar or have to throw it off my shoulders.
Any opinions on this?

Just get in the power rack and set the bars 3 inches under where you bottom out on your squats. If you get stuck... just drop down and let the bar go. I just think Smith Machine squats are an inefficient way to work the quads. I like the Smith machine for step lunges where I fling one leg back and work a leg independantly, but for squats they seem useless.

 

[Silent Method]

That's no different from regular squats. As long as you drop the bar straight down when doing regular squats...the smith machine will not alter your form at all.

No one drops the bar in the fixed linear plane while performing a barbell squat.

Due to the fixed plane with the smith squat, their are unique issues with foot placement and it's impact on comparative joint rotation at various body segments.

The smith squat is fine when done correctly. However, it is NOT the same as a barbell squat.

 

[mt]

A couple of terms I am not quite clear on. What is "core" strength? And what is meant by "unnecessary sheer force?"

Also, I don't have access to a power rack though I'd be fascinated to know what an "ox yolk" barbell looks like.

 

[Silent Method]

Core strength is essentially the strength of the torso.


Here is a pic of an ox yolk for safety squats.


Shear force is a sliding force. Joints such as the knee can take an amazing amount of compressing force, but they do not take shear force very well before damage occurs. In a squat, the further knee moves foreward the base of support, the greater the shear stress on the knee.

 

[mt]

Core strength is essentially the strength of the torso.


Here is a pic of an ox yolk for safety squats.


Shear force is a sliding force. Joints such as the knee can take an amazing amount of compressing force, but they do not take shear force very well before damage occurs. In a squat, the further knee moves foreward the base of support, the greater the shear stress on the knee.

Sorry to sound like such a total retard but what muscles in particular are you referring to when you talk about the strength of the torso?

Also, when you refer to sheer force as the further the knee moves forward from the base of support then it would seem that the leg extension machine would be an exercise that would cause the greatest amount of sheer force. Would that be correct?

 

[Bulldog_10]

Sorry to sound like such a total retard but what muscles in particular are you referring to when you talk about the strength of the torso?

Also, when you refer to sheer force as the further the knee moves forward from the base of support then it would seem that the leg extension machine would be an exercise that would cause the greatest amount of sheer force. Would that be correct?

Very true about leg ext. You should never pick a weight in that movement that you can't do for at least 6-7 reps.

The core muscles are the abs (transversus abdominus in particular) and any muscles that attach to the spine and hip or leg (iliacus, psoas major, etc...)

 

[Silent Method]

Also, when you refer to sheer force as the further the knee moves forward from the base of support then it would seem that the leg extension machine would be an exercise that would cause the greatest amount of sheer force. Would that be correct?

LOL about sounding like a retard. For the most part you're dead on. This is something many "experts" overlooked for years and years.

 

[wutangnomo]

Smith squats don't emphasize the quads more...unless you want them to.

No offence but the whole point of squats is to emphasize the quads. The times I do smith squads I do it in a fashion so that it emphasizes the quad muscle. That's the point of doing the exercise.

 

[OMEGA]

feet well out forwarwar hurts my knees but fee right inderneath me does not

for me its superor to free squats do to my heigth

 

[Bulldog_10]

No offence but the whole point of squats is to emphasize the quads. The times I do smith squads I do it in a fashion so that it emphasizes the quad muscle. That's the point of doing the exercise.

No offense...but squats should NOT emphasize the quads.

 

[Lumberg]

No offence but the whole point of squats is to emphasize the quads.

 

[Bulldog_10]

 

[Fina Junkie]

What I meat was simply that the smith squat is a different beast than a barbell squat.


Have you ever tried safety squats? You need a power rack and an "ox yolk" barbell. The ox yolk allows you do balance the bar in position on your upper back without touching it with your hands. You use your hands to hold onto the beams of the rack in front of you. They can assist in form, steadying yourself through the movement, and assist in extension as you reach failure.

I dislocated both shoulders at the same time with that contraption.

 

[Bulldog_10]

I dislocated both shoulders at the same time with that contraption.

Um...OUCH!

 

[wutangnomo]

No offense...but squats should NOT emphasize the quads.

When I do squats I do it so that it emphasizes the quads, after all, it is a leg exercise (yes also a total body exercise). Yes the hams and glutes get hit as well (in conjunction with a lot of other muscles) but it is largely the quads that SHOULD get hit (depending on foot positioning as you mentioned). If your quads aren't growing from doing squats you aren't doing them correctly.

If squats should not emphasize quads, what should it emphasize?

 

[Bulldog_10]

When I do squats I do it so that it emphasizes the quads, after all, it is a leg exercise (yes also a total body exercise). Yes the hams and glutes get hit as well (in conjunction with a lot of other muscles) but it is largely the quads that SHOULD get hit (depending on foot positioning as you mentioned). If your quads aren't growing from doing squats you aren't doing them correctly.

If squats should not emphasize quads, what should it emphasize?

Hip extensors...glutes and hams.

 

[genarr3]

When I do squats I do it so that it emphasizes the quads, after all, it is a leg exercise (yes also a total body exercise). Yes the hams and glutes get hit as well (in conjunction with a lot of other muscles) but it is largely the quads that SHOULD get hit (depending on foot positioning as you mentioned). If your quads aren't growing from doing squats you aren't doing them correctly.

If squats should not emphasize quads, what should it emphasize?

I'm guessing you're not a powerlifter?

 

[wutangnomo]

Oh ok my bad. I am talking from a bodybuilding perspective, which then quads should be the focus of a squat. I don't care much for powerlifting. I am assuming the original thread starter was posting from a bodybuilding standpoint

 

[Bulldog_10]

Oh ok my bad. I am talking from a bodybuilding perspective, which then quads should be the focus of a squat. I don't care much for powerlifting. I am assuming the original thread starter was posting from a bodybuilding standpoint

No matter what the squat emphasizes the hip extensors. What is the main movement of the squat? Hip extension.

If you're gonna say knee extension...don't.

 

[Silent Method]

No matter what the squat emphasizes the hip extensors. What is the main movement of the squat? Hip extension.

If you're gonna say knee extension...don't.

BINGO.

 

[Silent Method]

Re: "ox yolk"

I dislocated both shoulders at the same time with that contraption.

How in the hell did you manage that? I've used it up to 405 lbs, the bar resting particularly comfortable accross my shoulders. We have powerlifters in my gym who have piled 700+ on the thing and used nothing more than their fingertips on the rack to stablize themselves.

 

[Debaser]

No matter what the squat emphasizes the hip extensors. What is the main movement of the squat? Hip extension.

If you're gonna say knee extension...don't.

That's why I think deep olympic style squats are the best. The entire lower body musculature is worked with a great balance. Since you're going deep (below parallel), the hamstring is heavily recruited which not only protects the knee joint, but gives the added benefit of additional hamstring work. Done correctly, deep oly squats are almost all you need to do for the lower body. If you need more than squats, Romanian deadlifts, and a form of calf raise for your legs, then you're probably not doing them correctly.

 

[chicagobuffedbod]

If you ask any physical therapist that is up to date regarding squatting and the knees they will tell you that the squat is one of the safest exercises if done correctly. You may see a lot of people thrust their knees forward that extend way beyond their foot positioning, this is very poor form. You squat done as if you were going to sit in a chair, and NOT keep your butt inline with your feet as you descend. A physical therapist will tell you that the worst exercise for your knees is the leg extension, this exercise is by far the most un-natural movement for the knee structure. I can attest to this when I had knee pain that stopped after cessation of leg extensions. However I got back into doing them as a way to pre-exhaust the quads immediately performed before squatting with no problem.
I say listen to a physical therapist, their info is highly valid. After all, why do something to injure yourself and negate your attainment for any potential gains?
I conclude, squatting if done correctly is VERY safe, and in my opinion the best over all mass developer second to power deadlifts for putting on the beef.

 

[Lumberg]

squatting ... is ... the best over all mass developer second to power deadlifts for putting on the beef.

Wrong.

Squats #1
DLs #2

 

[Debaser]

You may see a lot of people thrust their knees forward that extend way beyond their foot positioning, this is very poor form.

Not necessarily. Of course, it depends on what you mean by "way beyond." Olympic lifters' knees go fairly far beyond their toes. But as I said above, deep squats recruit the hamstring which helps protect the knee joint.

If what you're saying were true, every olympic squatter would have wrecked knees.

 

[mt]

A physical therapist will tell you that the worst exercise for your knees is the leg extension, this exercise is by far the most un-natural movement for the knee structure.

Why is straightening your leg while sitting by far the most unnatural movement for the knee structure? Even old people that can barely walk can do this movement effortlessly. Not everyone can do a full squat with ease even without any outside resistance. I've had surgeries on both my knees (due to contact sports not exercise) and the first rehabilitaing exercise the PT had me do was leg extentions. In fact, this was really the only exercise I could do for the quads since even partial bodyweight squats caused pain. I think poor feet positioning (say, toes pointed in excessively) will cause more harm to your knee joint since your feet are in a fixed position throughout the movement whereas with the leg extension your toes tend to point in the position that is most comfortable and causes the least strain on the joint.

 

[needsize]

leg extensions do put far more shearing force on the knees than squats. I got to experience this first hand prepping for my show. I squat up to around 455 for reps, ass to the floor and never have any knee pain. My trainer told me to start doing extensions before the show, within a few weeks my knees were screwed, still hurt 6 months later

 

[Fina Junkie]

Re: "ox yolk"

How in the hell did you manage that? I've used it up to 405 lbs, the bar resting particularly comfortable accross my shoulders. We have powerlifters in my gym who have piled 700+ on the thing and used nothing more than their fingertips on the rack to stablize themselves.

I had either 465 or 455 on there. The U shaped pad rested directly over the joints i guess. I finished my set of 3, racked the weight and couldn't move my arms. I got to ride in an ambulance that day

 

[mt]

leg extensions do put far more shearing force on the knees than squats. I got to experience this first hand prepping for my show. I squat up to around 455 for reps, ass to the floor and never have any knee pain. My trainer told me to start doing extensions before the show, within a few weeks my knees were screwed, still hurt 6 months later

What kind of weight were you using on the leg extensions and was it done with strict form? It is rare to see a person doing leg extensions without them kicking that weight up. I think that as long as a movement doesn't twist your joint out of it's socket and is done in a controlled and deliberate fashion it would seem to me to be relatively safe. And what's up with all this "shearing force" talk? Is there a lot of shearing force on the elbow joint with a tricep extension? Why or why not? It would seem to me that when doing a squat or a bench press the joint is more compressed because it is directly in line in the lock out position with the much greater resistance than with an extension movement. Bending the joint in this compressed position (in addition to either your feet or hands being held in a fixed position) under the greater weight than can be used in an extension type movement might contribute to this "joint shearing" but I've never felt any pain when doing any extension type movement in a strict fashion. The same cannot be said for exercises like squats and bench presses (which can take its toll on the shoulders and elbows)

 

[Lumberg]

Why is straightening your leg while sitting by far the most unnatural movement for the knee structure? Even old people that can barely walk can do this movement effortlessly. Not everyone can do a full squat with ease even without any outside resistance. I've had surgeries on both my knees (due to contact sports not exercise) and the first rehabilitaing exercise the PT had me do was leg extentions. In fact, this was really the only exercise I could do for the quads since even partial bodyweight squats caused pain. I think poor feet positioning (say, toes pointed in excessively) will cause more harm to your knee joint since your feet are in a fixed position throughout the movement whereas with the leg extension your toes tend to point in the position that is most comfortable and causes the least strain on the joint.

leg extensions with low weight are an excellend rehab exercise. I think what he is saying is that working at very high loads for weeks with leg extensions will hurt your knee more than help it. The reverse is true for squats.

 

[Silent Method]

Olympic lifters' knees go fairly far beyond their toes.

Not all of them.

If what you're saying were true, every olympic squatter would have wrecked knees.

Not all of them, but some. (Squattng isn't an O lift, but I know what you mean.)

 

[Silent Method]

Re: "ox yolk"

I had either 465 or 455 on there. The U shaped pad rested directly over the joints i guess. I finished my set of 3, racked the weight and couldn't move my arms. I got to ride in an ambulance that day

Yuck. How did you position your arms? The pad on the ones I have used fit well between my shoulder joints.

 

[Fina Junkie]

Re: "ox yolk"

Yuck. How did you position your arms? The pad on the ones I have used fit well between my shoulder joints.

I was holding on to the pegs on the rack to balance myself. I think I may have extended my arms too far out in front of me.

Eitherway I'll just be using the straight bar from now on.

 

[needsize]

I was doing sets of 10-15 reps, slow and in control, at the very end of the qud routine. The weight was 2/3 of the stack which isnt a whole lot. The bit about shearing force I got from an orthopedic surgeon that I went to see, he also specialilzed in treating athletes

 

[Nelson Montana]

To an extent, all exercises are shearing to the joints. The diffrence with leg extentions is that the joint was never intendd to move against resitance in that manner. No where in life do you need to "kick out" against continual resistance. Movements like squats and tricep extentions simply mirror daily movement , just with an increased load. Leg extentions are abnormal.

I do believe extentions work nicely as a pre-exaust movement or as a "finisher." But trying to build quad mass with extentions will be inneffectual and damaging to the knees.

 

[mt]

To an extent, all exercises are shearing to the joints. The diffrence with leg extentions is that the joint was never intendd to move against resitance in that manner. No where in life do you need to "kick out" against continual resistance. Movements like squats and tricep extentions simply mirror daily movement , just with an increased load. Leg extentions are abnormal.

I do believe extentions work nicely as a pre-exaust movement or as a "finisher." But trying to build quad mass with extentions will be inneffectual and damaging to the knees.

I find this notion that because a movement under continuous resistance occurs "no where in life" therefore it is possibly dangerous to be rather suspect. The body moves as the body moves. If you want to strengthen that movement you do it under a load, in a non-explosive manner -- preferably over the full range of motion. Are the neck muscles, anywhere in life, subjected to continuous resistance? If you are a wrestler strong neck muscles are a must and nothing beats the Nautilus neck machine. How about wrist extensions or wrist curls? Stiff leg dead lifts? How about that machine where you sit and twist your body from side to side under continual resistance? For those familiar with submission wrestling/Jiu-Jitsu you know about the foot lock. I have found myself almost impervious to foot locks by doing a simply exercise on the leg curl machine. I sit on the machine, legs straight (face up) and hook my toes under the pads and curl my instep toward my shins. This has strenghten the tendons and whatever muscle is on the front of the shins to such an extent that straight foot locks are ineffective against me. Does this motion occur anywhere in nature? Am I shearing my ankle joints? Do you ever in life need to curl your leg to your butt against continual resistance?

 

[Nelson Montana]

mt: Most of the movements you mentioned are natural, just not under the stress that resistance training would provide. You're correct about the leg curls though. They too are an unnatural movement to a degree but hamstring muscles do "pull up" when running so it isn't as bad as extentions.

Because any movement is a little awkward doesn't mean you can't strengten the muscles by using them. A leg curl uses body torque to a degree, which is why standing leg curl you can never use much weight. Compare that to how much weight you can squat. That's my point. If you want to build a big muscle , you need to use a heavy weight.

Nothing is written in stone. This is why I argue with people who are so opposed to the Smith machine, claiming it isn't "natural." People claim presses behind the neck aren't natural and I never had a problem with them. Hell, lifting tons of weight isn't natural! But knees are delicate. They injure easily and take forever to heal, so it's prudent to work with the bodies natural movement as opposed to forcing it to get stronger by stressing it in a compromising way.

 

[psychedout]

Squats don't hurt my knees at all. Albeit reg, front, box, smith.

Leg extensions and leg press kill my knees -- I never do those.

 

[mt]

NM: Fair enough. Though I still think the leg extension is a natural movement. At least it is for me. Though most of my martial arts training is spent rolling on the ground I'd still rather begin and end a fight with a swift kick to the nuts. And being 6'2" and all legs I find getting into a full squat position, especially with the feet flat on the ground and not warmed up, to be rather awkward.
But having long legs isn't all bad. I look great in blue denim "Daisey Duke" shorts with black combat boots.

 

[visions]

If you insist on doing leg extensions there is no need to go beyond 30degrees range of motion, EMG's show full VMO contraction within the first 30degrees so basically your vastus (quads) groups get the same benefit contraction wise as would going in the full range of motion. But like some have said here the leg extension from a functional standpoint is virtually worthless.

 

[mt]

If you insist on doing leg extensions there is no need to go beyond 30degrees range of motion, EMG's show full VMO contraction within the first 30degrees so basically your vastus (quads) groups get the same benefit contraction wise as would going in the full range of motion. But like some have said here the leg extension from a functional standpoint is virtually worthless.

It seems unlikely that it is worthless as the muscle is being worked. It is a common movement for rehab and I don't know a single competitive bodybuilder that doesn't do leg extensions. I like it for a pre-exhaust movement. Just the fact that I can't do as much weight for the same number of reps on a pressing type movement (squats, leg presses...) when doing leg extensions immediately prior tells me that some time of load on the muscle is being applied.

 

[visions]

It seems unlikely that it is worthless as the muscle is being worked. It is a common movement for rehab and I don't know a single competitive bodybuilder that doesn't do leg extensions. I like it for a pre-exhaust movement. Just the fact that I can't do as much weight for the same number of reps on a pressing type movement (squats, leg presses...) when doing leg extensions immediately prior tells me that some time of load on the muscle is being applied.

"from a functional standpoint is virtually worthless." I did not say from a bodybuilding standpoint and I even stated that within the first 30 degrees of range of motion there is a full contraction measured through an EMG so clearly there is a contraction and with a loaded contraction comes hypertrophy so yes if hypertrophy is your only goal leg extensions can serve a purpose but why even bother isolating the joint when you could better spend your time on compound movements that generate more motor unit recruitment which in turn can not only improve your functionality but also give you the hypertrophy that you're hoping to gain. Just MO.

 

[mt]

"from a functional standpoint is virtually worthless." I did not say from a bodybuilding standpoint and I even stated that within the first 30 degrees of range of motion there is a full contraction measured through an EMG so clearly there is a contraction and with a loaded contraction comes hypertrophy so yes if hypertrophy is your only goal leg extensions can serve a purpose but why even bother isolating the joint when you could better spend your time on compound movements that generate more motor unit recruitment which in turn can not only improve your functionality but also give you the hypertrophy that you're hoping to gain. Just MO.

I am going by the assumption that leg extensions will strenghten your quads. And a stronger muscle, any muscle, is an improvement in functional ability.
And I do agree that compound movements such as squats are an overall better exercise but, well, they're kind of hard. I mean, you get all out of breath and sweaty and stuff. It's so much nicer to sit comfortably in an ergonomically designed machine and leisurely kick your leg out 30 degrees or so. Some people can even read the paper when doing leg extensions. Try doing that with a heavy barbell on your neck.

 

[javaguru]

After my ACL surgery I was told, "Do not do leg extensions, it's a terrible exercise for your knees." I was treated at a top teaching hospital by one of the best sports medicine guys in the USA. Of course, I hadn't done them for five years anyway so....

 

[visions]

I am going by the assumption that leg extensions will strenghten your quads. And a stronger muscle, any muscle, is an improvement in functional ability.
And I do agree that compound movements such as squats are an overall better exercise but, well, they're kind of hard. I mean, you get all out of breath and sweaty and stuff. It's so much nicer to sit comfortably in an ergonomically designed machine and leisurely kick your leg out 30 degrees or so. Some people can even read the paper when doing leg extensions. Try doing that with a heavy barbell on your neck.

EXACTLY, when taken into consideration the scientific principles of training, specifically SAID or Overload which basically state through compensation the body adapts to a stimulus and without any complexity the body will plataue and no longer make progressive gains. Yes with the contribution of anabolics your leg extension strength will continue to go through the roof as will the integrity of your patellar tendon and ligaments around the knee joint but hey at least you can still get a newspaper read in. No I'm just playin but anybody on this board knows variety is the most essential key to training, so I'm just saying that both the mind and the body can far greater benefit from compound functional movements. Also on a side note, studies show that (I'll find it if you want me to) that there is NO transfer in strength from isolated joint movements to compound movements, in other words extending your leg to death will not transfer into strength gains in the squat.

 

[mt]

Also on a side note, studies show that (I'll find it if you want me to) that there is NO transfer in strength from isolated joint movements to compound movements, in other words extending your leg to death will not transfer into strength gains in the squat.

That is very interesting. Does that also apply to other muscle groups? For example, does having stronger biceps from doing curls help you with pullups? Or increasing the strenght of your triceps by doing push downs help you with your bench? It does seem counter intuitive but personal experience has led me to believe that the body is very "activity specific" for lack of a better term. Meaning, that if you want to be good, strong or in condition to do that something the only way to do it is to specifically do that something. For example, it is beginning to dawn on me that interval running (sprints/jog) and just regular running doesn't really seem to help my conditioning in submission wrestling/Jiu-Jitsu. What I mean by that is my conditioning in regard to wrestling doesn't seem to change if I stop running. But if I just run but don't wrestle (say, due to injury) my endurance on the mat takes a big dive. So, I am coming to the conclusion, and I know this is a leap, that if I want to be in shape to wrestle I have to wrestle and if I want to get stronger in squats I have to squat.

 

[visions]

That is very interesting. Does that also apply to other muscle groups? For example, does having stronger biceps from doing curls help you with pullups? Or increasing the strenght of your triceps by doing push downs help you with your bench? It does seem counter intuitive but personal experience has led me to believe that the body is very "activity specific" for lack of a better term. Meaning, that if you want to be good, strong or in condition to do that something the only way to do it is to specifically do that something. For example, it is beginning to dawn on me that interval running (sprints/jog) and just regular running doesn't really seem to help my conditioning in submission wrestling/Jiu-Jitsu. What I mean by that is my conditioning in regard to wrestling doesn't seem to change if I stop running. But if I just run but don't wrestle (say, due to injury) my endurance on the mat takes a big dive. So, I am coming to the conclusion, and I know this is a leap, that if I want to be in shape to wrestle I have to wrestle and if I want to get stronger in squats I have to squat.

Your intuition based on personal experience and reasoning is exactly right. Joints working synergistically specific to the imposed demand is only improved specific to the movement. Balance on a surfboard will not improve from improvement on a wobble board. Tricep extensions will not improve bench press etc. Sounds like you're getting plenty of knowledge through experience.