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5X5....ATF Squats....Knee Pain? What now?

big perm

big perm

Active member
Ok, here's my history:

34 years old....when I would squat....I have gone to at least parallel since I was 16 and ATF for the past year. In this past year I have run a few Madcow 5X5's...all with ATF squats...and all with great progress in both mass and strength.

Three weeks ago while starting another run through the 5X5 I was warming up with 135 and whenever I would just about hit atf, I would get a pain in my right knee. I could go to parallel( or very close to it) with no pain but when I broke that plane to get below the pain was there. I finished my 5 sets while trying to ignore the pain (1st week of 5X5 - light weight). Two days later for my wednesday workout I was able to dead just fine but again the same pain for squats...this time I stopped the squats entirely. I honestly don't even remember tweaking the knee or doing anything that would cause it to cause this pain prior to this.

For the next two weeks I stopped the 5X5 entirely and just did a few higher rep lifts for everything but legs, for which I did nothing while trying to let my knee heal.

Today I started the 5X5 again after feeling confident the knee was good to go. I warmed up with bodyweight squats and then put 135 on the bar and the pain was still there. I decided at that point that I wanted a decent leg w/o so I jumped on the leg press for 5 sets of 5. No pain with knees to chest.

Now...my question...what would you do? Would you keep the squats if you were only able to go to near parallel or would you substitute leg presses in for the squats for the duration of the 5X5 and let the knee heal for the 9 weeks?
 
As I am sure many people will tell you, the leg press is a poor substitute for the squat. IMHO, it would suit you best to do the parallel squats, going down as far as is comfortable for you. The alternative is to take some time off and do some knee strengthening exercises or have it looked at to determine the cause of the problem. It may be you tweaked a ligament or a tendon...does it every pop when you break the 90 degree plane?

On a similar note, I started doing deads seriously last week and I got in way over my head. I too am trying to get into 5x5 mode for the summer. Anyays, I went too hard with too much weight, and now my knees are all achy. I feel like I just need to give them some time to heal. I've been sitting on a bike for about 20 min a day, pedaling real slow and smooth just to get the knee warmed up. Afterwards, I have been stretching for a good 20-25 min followed by some knee exercises they normally prescribe during rehab after a strain or something. If you'd like some ideas, the link is http://www.athleticadvisor.com/images/Acrobat/knee rehab.PDF

Hope you get better soon!
 
Thanks bro....

No popping in the knee upon descent or anything, it's really hard to describe...kinda feels like maybe a ligament or tendon is stretching too far when my butt touches my calves?

Anyway...thanks again for the response...k to ya.

p.s. I am aware of the superiority of the squat to the press...I just want something productive, I hate not being able to squat.
 
Get a neoprene knee-tube to keep the knee warm during the workout and start to experiment with foot-spacing and foot-angle. I sometimes suffer similar to what you describe. Warm up with just the bar for a couple of sets to get your groove for the day and never relax while in the hole; it puts lots of stress on the kness.
 
Beerdrinker....I don't stretch before lifting, and a little after but my flexibility seems to be fine. Thanks.

Blut wump....any suggestions on a particular type of knee tube and where to get one? I may try that approach...thanks.
 
mojaz87 said:
As I am sure many people will tell you, the leg press is a poor substitute for the squat. IMHO, it would suit you best to do the parallel squats, going down as far as is comfortable for you. The alternative is to take some time off and do some knee strengthening exercises or have it looked at to determine the cause of the problem. It may be you tweaked a ligament or a tendon...does it every pop when you break the 90 degree plane?

On a similar note, I started doing deads seriously last week and I got in way over my head. I too am trying to get into 5x5 mode for the summer. Anyays, I went too hard with too much weight, and now my knees are all achy. I feel like I just need to give them some time to heal. I've been sitting on a bike for about 20 min a day, pedaling real slow and smooth just to get the knee warmed up. Afterwards, I have been stretching for a good 20-25 min followed by some knee exercises they normally prescribe during rehab after a strain or something. If you'd like some ideas, the link is http://www.athleticadvisor.com/images/Acrobat/knee rehab.PDF

Hope you get better soon!
Click to expand...
leg press puts a good amount of stress on the knees too. and i wouldn't advise him to do parallel squats because that is going to be more stressful to the knees then ATF. rest/strengthening should hopefully solve the problem.
 
There are varying opinions on the proper squat depth. Just as many people would tell you ATF is the only way to go in this forum, others will tell you parallel is much safer. If there was any real conclusive evidence, I think the true answer would be clear and there wouldn't be all this confusion. So I say, to each his own...if he's squatting to parallel and says he has no pain, that's better than doing leg presses. Of course as you said, rest and rehab would be optimal..
 
Maybe you overtrained them
I had overtrain syndrom to knees, elbows and shoulders with 5x5
It was too much volume and knees started to hurt and any other ligament ... take some time off, 3 weeks and start with low volume again
go see doctor they should subscribe some medicine
 
silver_shadow said:
leg press puts a good amount of stress on the knees too. and i wouldn't advise him to do parallel squats because that is going to be more stressful to the knees then ATF. rest/strengthening should hopefully solve the problem.
Click to expand...

The rest part I understand...but how should I go about strengthening them if I have to rest them?
 
Czar87 said:
Maybe you overtrained them
I had overtrain syndrom to knees, elbows and shoulders with 5x5
It was too much volume and knees started to hurt and any other ligament ... take some time off, 3 weeks and start with low volume again
go see doctor they should subscribe some medicine
Click to expand...
i think you've got frequency and volume mixed up. 5x5 is high frequency low volume. body part 1x per week is low frequency high volume. and for most lifters, maxing out on lifts/heavy triples/doubles/singles is what will cause joint stress.
 
mojaz87 said:
There are varying opinions on the proper squat depth. Just as many people would tell you ATF is the only way to go in this forum, others will tell you parallel is much safer. If there was any real conclusive evidence, I think the true answer would be clear and there wouldn't be all this confusion. So I say, to each his own...if he's squatting to parallel and says he has no pain, that's better than doing leg presses. Of course as you said, rest and rehab would be optimal..
Click to expand...
there have been a few threads on this explaining squat depth. maybe someone can help me out on this one.
 
this isn't exactly what i was looking for... but it'll kind of do for the moment... read what they have to say about full squats:
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html
then click on the link to the squat description: he says to bring the thighs to just below parallel. in fact this is what is expected in a PL comp. anything parallel or above that will be disregarded. a wide PL stance will not allow anything lower anyway, as BW pointed out.
 
silver_shadow said:
there have been a few threads on this explaining squat depth. maybe someone can help me out on this one.
Click to expand...


This is where we need madcow to explain things... I miss him already, lol

To put it very simply, when stopping at parallel or above you're putting all the stress on you're knees, when doing completly ATF you're allowing your hips to take up the load removing the stress form the knees.

Or somethng like that.
 
hey I was right.. I learned something.

Form madcows website (linked back to the big 5x5 thread)

There are several schools of thought on squat depth. Many misinformed individuals caution against squatting below parallel, stating that this is hazardous to the knees. Nothing could be further from the truth. (2) Stopping at or above parallel places direct stress on the knees, whereas a deep squat will transfer the load to the hips,(3) which are capable of handling a greater amount of force than the knees should ever be exposed to. Studies have shown that the squat produces lower peak tibeo-femoral(stress at the knee joint) compressive force than both the leg press and the leg extension.(4) For functional strength, one should descend as deeply as possible, and under control. (yes, certain individuals can squat in a ballistic manner, but they are the exception rather than the rule). The further a lifter descends, the more the hamstrings are recruited, and proper squatting displays nearly twice the hamstring involvement of the leg press or leg extension. (5,6) and as one of the functions of the hamstring is to protect the patella tendon (the primary tendon involved in knee extension) during knee extension through a concurrent firing process, the greatest degree of hamstring recruitment should provide the greatest degree of protection to the knee joint. (7) When one is a powerlifter, the top surface of the legs at the hip joint must descend to a point below the top surface of the legs at the knee joint.
Click to expand...

I think you should read the whole post as it goes through every part of the squat. my guess is that your form is causing your knee pain.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5124176&postcount=825
 
DZLS said:
maybe you shoudl evaluate your form...

are you sitting back, or just dropping down...?
Click to expand...

Well...in short, I've always thought my form was good....I've had people tell me that as well. But at times, especially when near or setting pr's...I find myself leaning forward a tad onto my toes.


I'll work on my form...thanks bro.
 
big perm said:
Well...in short, I've always thought my form was good....I've had people tell me that as well. But at times, especially when near or setting pr's...I find myself leaning forward a tad onto my toes.


I'll work on my form...thanks bro.
Click to expand...

Who are the people telling you your form is good? Are they creditable, or are the typical 1/4 squat people you see at the gym these days.

There is only one person at the 3 gyms I go to that I can actually ask to help me on my form (he's a power lifter and been doing it for years). The rest don't know a squat froma hole in the ground.

Can you take some video of yourself doing a squat and post it here?
 
djeclipse said:
Who are the people telling you your form is good? Are they creditable, or are the typical 1/4 squat people you see at the gym these days.

There is only one person at the 3 gyms I go to that I can actually ask to help me on my form (he's a power lifter and been doing it for years). The rest don't know a squat froma hole in the ground.

Can you take some video of yourself doing a squat and post it here?
Click to expand...

You're right about the credibility factor...and to be honest, I'm not sure if I've ever even seen them squat. Like you and most others on here, seeing a proper squat performed by someone other than yourself is an infrequent occurrence.

I'll cut out legs for about three weeks and see if that's long enough for it heal....then I'll try to get a vid on here for you guys to evaluate.

Thanks to all who've responded...k given to those I'm able to (blut...sorry bro, still need to pass some more around ).
 
I had a similar problem with one of my knees and ended up stopping all squats for about three weeks while waiting for it to heal. During this time I replaced the squats with leg presses. I'm not a fan of leg presses, but I figured it would be better than nothing because they didn't give my knee any pain.

When I started back in with squats again, I stuck to sets of 10 for a month before going heavy. I was amazed at how incredibly sore my legs got after not doing squats for just a few weeks -- it was like starting over! It was a perfect illustration to me of how worthless the leg press excercise is.



Tedster
 
Tedster said:
I had a similar problem with one of my knees and ended up stopping all squats for about three weeks while waiting for it to heal. During this time I replaced the squats with leg presses. I'm not a fan of leg presses, but I figured it would be better than nothing because they didn't give my knee any pain.

When I started back in with squats again, I stuck to sets of 10 for a month before going heavy. I was amazed at how incredibly sore my legs got after not doing squats for just a few weeks -- it was like starting over! It was a perfect illustration to me of how worthless the leg press excercise is.



Tedster
Click to expand...

..and after the three weeks of incorporating the leg presses, how was the hurt knee once you started back with squats?
 
I am currently having similar problems with achy knees. I have been trying to improve my flexibility and knee strength for the past few days and I'm going to try and ease into squats on monday after about a week off unless I still feel it's bothering me. It's unfortunate too because I was only a few weeks out from PR's in my current cycle, but it's definitely not worth it to risk the injury. I definitely agree about the leg presses too. Another thing I dislike about them is the sheer time and energy it takes to load the thing up. When I used to do them, I had to put on 15-16 plates for sets because you can handle so much more weight than with squats.
 
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