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My personal physical fitness war against HIV/AIDS: The War.

alanchiras

Plat Hero
Platinum
I'd like to split this post in two section. First, i'm going to lay out my current freeweight program that i've been using for the past half year. It comes mostly from the book 'Built to Survive' the first and primary reference for weight training for PWA's as well as a great reference for AS and Test use for PWA's that would be using a legit set of doctors scripts to obtain the LBM drugs. I'm shortly going to change my workout plan to a more intensive one - the one in the e-book The Bodybuilding Truth by George Montana. I feel that my current workout routine does not push me as hard as I would like to be pushed, and that's why the change. In the second secion, i'll be going over ALL of the drugs i'm taking for a variet of reasons and ask for some input on them. Realise(sp) that it took a long time to convince my HIV doctor to put me on LBM builing meds so keep that in mind. Let's start!

My current almost all freeweight workout routine:

Monday
Barbell Bench Press
12/10 8/15 6/20
(meaning 12 reps with a additional 10 lbs onto a 45lb bar, then 8 reps with 15 added lbs, etc.)
Dumbbell Shoulder Press
12/12 8/15 6/20
Dumbbell Row
12/12 8/15 6/20
Cable Pushdown
12/80 8/90 6/100

Wendensday
Cable Close Grip Pulldown
12/110 8/120 6/130
Barbell Preacher (e/z) Curl
12/10 8/20 6/25
Weighted Incline Crunch
12/0 8/0 6/0

Friday
Barbell Squat(my favorite exersice)
12/50 8/70 6/100
Lever Lying Leg Curl (Nautilus)
12/95 8/105 6/115
Sled 45 Degree Calf Raise (another favorite)
12/50 8/70 6/100

OK? And now to my questions about this routine.

1. I can do most of these exersies with a moderate level of difficulity at the current amounts of weights (with good form.) When should I know when I should raise the weight amounts, and when should I know when it is enought? Should I be struggling to make the last rep of my last set to know that i'm at the right weight or what???

2. I'm using a slightly incline bench to do my Chrunchs. To go up on this exercise, should i first:
A. Raise the incline of the board by a notch
B. Increase the number of crunchs I am currently doing or
C. Grasp a plate in my hands held to my chest while doing them.

3. I seem to spend no longer than about a half hour in the freeweight area doing my routine - am I not pushing myself enought?

And now, my drug regiem(sp?)

For antiretorvirals, I am taking the following: Combivir as AZT & 3TC (YES, I know AZT is poison, but it works for me.) Sustiva, and Viread. I take Effoxor ex for depression and will be soon changing it to Mirtazapine. Prochorperazine for nausea, Trazdone for sleep, and Avandia for appitiate.
For AS, I am on Deca(now known by it's generic name - Nandrolone Decanoate 200MG 6 weeks on and 2 weeks off. Also, d-bol 20 MG and 10 Grams of Androgel.
It should be know that I was previously on Oxandrin but had liver failure on it and had to stop taking it.

My question to all of you is do you thing the type and amount of AS and Test is too little, just right, or too much.

Understand that PWA's fight to gain as much LBM as possible for a specific reason. AIDS waisting sydrone attacts muscle and not fat before it goes after your vital organs, so having as much LBM as possible is like saving for a rainy day - only in our case it's our lives that are in the balance. Thanks in advance for your thoughtful replys.
 
It appears that I may have made a gross mistake in my use of supplements. After my six weeks on AS, I went into my two week phase of washout while taking mys3elf off of two things that I now have second thoughts of. I have stopped taking two 1-AD a day and six 700mg caps of creatine. Should I have stopped taking either one of these during my break?
 
1-Always strive to add an extra rep or two at the current weights you are pushing,or to add say,an additional 2.5 lbs to each side as often as possible.Your primary goal should be to get stronger.Remember,a stronger muscle is a bigger muscle.This equates to overall LBM.
Yes,the last rep or two should be very difficult.If it's not,it is time to up the weight slightly.

2-Any of those techniques will add additional stress,but if your primary goal is mass,then adding the plate in will be the most effective towards thicking up the abdominal muscle wall.

3-As long as you are reaching failure at the end of each rep session,then time has no bearing.You do not grow while you lift,but rather in the hours afterward,while your muscles are repairing themselves.You have to really stay focused and eat a lot of protein in the aftermath of your training sessions,this will be crucial to your progression.Try to be feeding in protein every 3-4 hours.I can not stress how important this will be.

As to your drug regimen,the deca/d-bol combination is a very good one.It would be enhanced even greater by the addition of 200mgs/week of IM testosterone if you can eventually swing that.If you start attenuating to that regimen,then the dosages can be bumped up slightly,as they are quite low,but that's okay in the beginning,as you are testing your tolerance to them.

I would continue to take creatine,as it will help keep your cells full of ATP,and make them consistently fuller.You might also consider tossing in some glutamine peptides,as they go a long way toward anti-catabolism/repair,particularly when immune system is compromised.
 
Alan: Got you PM.

First, lt me say that no routine is the "perfect" way to train at the exclusion of all others. I make a point of that in the book. In regard to how intensely you tran, that's too subjective to answer without actually seeing you work out. The basic rule of thumb is to push hard, but not to the point where every set is all out failure. Train -- don't strain.

Regarding drugs, I would strongly advise against using any orals other than low dose anavar. 100 mgs of test and 100 mgs of primo a week sould be plenty. And of course, all the necessary supplements and a solid high protein diet are a must.

Best,

Nelson (not George) : )
 
Hi Alanchiras,
I wasn't going to comment on this board again but I did get your email so I will respond. You have raised a LOT of issues and I am not sure how to cover them all in this limited amount of space as they are all far more complicated than I think most are aware of so there is nothing straightforward about what you are asking about. Even how to workout with resistance weights is the subject of books, of and by itself, and then when complicated with the issues of HIV disease, fatigue issues related to HIV, metabolic issues caused by HIV and the drugs used to treat HIV not to mention side effects, toxicities, and dosing/eating/sleeping schedules, nutritional issues specific to HIV, recovery rates from exercise based on individual factors, HIV induced factors, age and other, and then you add AAS to the mix-well you get the idea. So even this is hard for me to answer with a one size fits all fix since there isn't one. Partly, you have to get VERY tuned into your body and learn what works for you, remembering that most, but not all things will work to some degree for a little while and then you'll need to change your approach, just like with people that are HIV negative and how they need to vary their resistance training to continue to make progress. In this one fact, things are the same but from here they begin to diverge in approach. I think Nelson Vergel along with Michael Mooney have done a great service to the community by putting forth the whole AAS and wasting discussion and by publishing "built to survive" to give some very basic information. Most people, unfortunately, are ignorant of even the most basic of issues so to get them even to point A is really an accomplishment. Also, you can't very well talk about points C, D, and E when your audience has yet to even get to point A either. Realize too, that you can only put so much into print and it is unrealistic that the "whole" story can be put into print because of legalities and liabilies. But that is the world we live in unfortunately. Not all speech is "free." For example, I seriously doubt that I could publish a book on what I know about fina, testosterone, nandrolone decanoate, serostim, Oxandrin, KS, HIV, hormonal resistance, wasting, and how to "put it together" without serious investigation and ramifications from John Ashcroft and his lieutenants at the so called "Department of Justice." Of course there is also the fine line referred to as "practicing medicine without a medical license" as I am NOT a medical doctor. The upside is that the book is probably fairly good for most people with HIV, many of whom can barely muster the energy for a "basic" workout let alone a fairly "hardcore" bodybuilding workout--frankly, even a little bit is LIGHT YEARS beyond not working out at all with HIV disease. And you have to learn how much you are capable of doing in YOUR circumstances and deal with it accordingly as insufficient rest/recovery and overtraining have specific and very negative implications with HIV disease. This, however, does not mean that you should not workout very very hard but you have to take it in perspective. But in the end, you just need to jump in and just "do it" and figure it out as you go rather than sit around contemplating your navel and pondering the "right" answer to come along. In the end, the answers will mostly come with experience and comparing notes with others that have "succeeded" and then taking from it what you can use. It also depends on what your specific short term and longer term goals are as well.

Just to give you a little background on me, I have lifted weights for 29 years, competed in intercollegiate sports in college and after, including rowing, bicycle racing on the velodrome (banked bicycle track) and criteriums and also was trained by a pro fighter in kickboxing. I have served two times around in the military and have two honorable discharges. I was raised blue collar but managed to go to an "Ivy League" University back east during my undergraduate education and paid for my own college without help from family. I have lived with HIV for 19 years since 1984, survived Kaposi's Sarcoma (cancer), was diagnosed with full blown AIDS in 1993, have been told I would not survive more times than I care to count and have even survived high viral loads exceeding 3 million virons per cc of blood that left immunologists asking me, "why are you still alive?" I still work full time and work out a LOT and overall feel I have a pretty decent life and certainly have had an incredibly interesting and productive life inspite of all that has been thrown in my direction. I have also been one of those "very difficult and argumentative patients" that doctors usually dislike but statistically are the ones that seem more likely to survive long term HIV because I take very proactive action and interest in my health at all times. I have fired MANY HIV doctors and am very selective as to whom I will seek advice and scrips from. I have never been afraid to refuse treatment, based on likelihood of treatment actually succeeding vs quality of life issues, even when told that refusing treatment would result in my death. I always look for the logic behind the theory and to see if the pathways and mode of effect seem plausible and reasonable and if the outcome is worth the suffering to get there or if the treatment may actually poison your system or "do you in" even before the problem that you are supposedly trying to "fix" does. I don't take anything at face value but tend to pull it all apart and consider many additional options as well even when most people don't see that other options may even exist. But that is a whole book that could be written and in retrospect, my doctors felt that I ended up calling mostly all the right shots at the time when information was very limited and treatments were nonexistent to very new even though many of the decisions that I made flew in the face of medical thinking at THAT time.

I have followed this thing VERY closely for a VERY long time. It helps that I have a degree in science and I work in a very senior scientific capacity in a non medical field. However, there are many transferable skills from one branch of science to another that are very helpful. Also, I am somewhat of an "extremist" desiring to carry an extremely large amount of buffer lean mass because I am well aware of just how much lean mass I can loose when I get seriously "knocked down" by illness and how hard I have to work for every pound of it, trying to offset the extreme catabolic nature of HIV itself plus the additional problems caused by the HIV medications themselves. So this has always worked for me. Currently, I am 5'11.5" tall, lean and vascular--always in single digits in terms of body fat and around 250 lbs. I am constantly being asked what "show" I am getting ready for as I am so lean all the time. I also carry lots of extra lean mass for the obvious reason that many on this board are interested in as well. So that should give you some idea.

One thing to consider is that not everything that works for me will work for you and vice versa. This seems particularly true with hiv. There are so MANY variables, without a full assessment and background of your situation, it is really hard for me to comment so I will have to go on some basic "food for thought" stuff.

You are correct about lean body mass being "money in the bank" for a rainy day. This is not only one of the fundimental keys for living with this disease long term, but it is also key to having a decent quality of life with HIV. 97% of ALL HIV docs fail to grasp this single point alone. Just keeping viral load under control will NOT ensure your longevity or quality of life. In fact, this disease WILL bite you in the ass when you least expect it if you are so complacent to think that just because your viral load is non detect, you are "OK." You can COUNT on it. Oh, and by the way, a recent study by the American Medical Association (AMA) revealed that fully 25% of all so called HIV practitioners failed to meet even the most basic of published and accepted AMA Guidelines for treatment of HIV disease. Something to think about.

There are also MANY other issues, aside from lean body mass, not well understood. For example, very early on in HIV disease, the digestive tract becomes one of the early casualties. The ability to absorb fat diminishes and the ability to metabolize fat also seems to disappear--this is part of the reason that while certain hiv drugs may cause programmed cellular death of subcutaneous fat cells, the fat that was formerly contained within them still has to go somewhere and gets redistributed rather than metabolized, i.e. part of the lipodystrophy problem--although the actual mechanism for this is not quite this straight forward but will suffice for this discussion. Other ramifications are that for most people with HIV, they can eat a fair amount of fat and probably not absorb hardly ANY of it. This has implications for nutritional deficiencies regarding all of the fat soluble vitamins. Additionally, if you eat too much fat, you will invariably suffer serious gas/bloat and diarhea for the very reason that your system can not process it or absorb it very well or at all so thinking that you now have a fee ticket to eat all the Haagen Daaz that you can stand will leave you with belly cramps and bloat and lots and lots of gas. So you will still need to control fat intake depending on what your system will tolerate which is probably not a whole lot of it.

To be honest, most docs are myopic and only concern themselves with viral loads (mine have been undectectable now for more than seven years) and CD4 counts and a very few other parameters. Most miss the very essence of HIV which is WASTING and also miss the problems that arise relative to screwed up lipids profiles, most notably cholesterol (HDL tends to be very low and LOW total cholesterol is a HALLMARK of the disease) and tryglicerides (which tend to be very high and this also has some implications with lipodystrophy issues). Unfortunately, even if your total cholesterol is low as mine is being around 133 total most of the time, you may still need to be on Lipitor or some other cholesterol controlling medication as I do because my HDL has always sucked (long before I ever did any AAS either) and therefore I run 3 times the risk factor for heart disease without it being controlled strictly. Additionally, none of the lipid controlling medications will control your triglycerides well, but fortunately cold water fish oil seems to take care of this problem quite well and there is even medical literature that supports it (although I have seen enough lab results that I am fairly well convinced). Prescription Carnitor is also a good option to control lipids, and yes you can probably get your insurance to pay up to 3000 mg/day because it also controls cholesterol (although it seems to have even greater value in lipodystrophy issues as well but that isn't what they'll prescribe it for). Over the counter Carnitine has mostly been shown by lab tests to contain little to none of the advertised amount so I wouldn't waste my money or time with them. Go for the pharmaceutical stuff. The other glaring problem that physicians won't address seem to be testosterone replacement therapy. It has been my experience that while the number willing to consider it is improving, it is still probably only limited to the top 1-3% of HIV practitioners. That is aside from being willing to address the medibolic wasting issues that certain AAS seem to be able to address.

Even less is known about the hormonal resistence issues also common to many people with HIV but I along with some microbiologist friends of mine suspect that it has something to do with the "DNA" intereference activity of the NRTI's which make up the backbone of treatment for most all protocols for treating HIV disease. Remember, AZT for example is considered a "DNA Terminator" and it the very fact that it attaches to the end of your DNA strands that is the essence of its anti retro viral effect. This is a characteristic of the whole class, by the way and is not just limited to AZT. The impact of hormonal resistance is that you may find that "normal" testosterone doses may not actually work for you and that higher doses may be needed to get "normal" results, let alone supraphysiological effects (you'll be hard pressed to find ANY doctor that will prescribe supraphysiological doses however, let alone higher than normal even if you have evidence of hormonal resistance). As a ball park, testosterone replacement is given usually in dosages of 100-200 mg every one or two weeks. This is "industry standard" for the few that will even consider prescribing it. In reality, you may find that you do a lot better at 400 mg per week which would be considered on the high end of what is done but some people are, in fact, prescribed this amount. So that should give you some idea. Mostly it is done based on blood tests and clinical observations, i.e. if you show the symptoms of "low testosterone" even though your blood levels show you to be in the normal range, even at the nader, than the physician has the leeway to prescribe more based on his observations/professional medical opinion and that is only possible with VERY enlightened doctors. Most won't even consider it. They will look at blood test results for total and free testosterone ONLY if even that much.

Additionally, it was first denied by the medical and pharmaceutical communtiy but now it is known by them that some HIV drugs, crixivan in particular actually shut down testosterone production. The mechanism is still not known but this has been documented quite clearly in clinical and other settings. For a whole host of other reasons, sooner or later, most people with hiv disease find their testosterone production either shuts down completely or markedly. Once this happens, it normally does not resume no matter how well the virus and disease seem to be under control and at this point, replacement therapy is indicated. Unfortunately most HIV docs are NOT willing to even test for or discuss this issue as it is still somewhat taboo in the medical community and there is a large concern about giving people with HIV testosterone which can encourage them to go out and have sex. That is the weird paradox. However, without testosterone, a male with hiv WILL lose lean body mass and experience wasting even if they have a non dectable viral load over time. It is also a medical fact that once a person looses fifty percent of their "baseline" lean body mass, they will die without any other causes being present. Wasting is one of the top reasons for death with HIV even to this day. Also, it is entirely possible to experience wasting for years and not change body weight as you change body "compostion" based on losing muscle and organ tissue and replacement with fat. The fifty percent rule still applies as only LEAN metabolic body mass matters. The amount you can loose is also less than you may think because water constitutes 50-55% of your TOTAL body weight and lean mass is a percentage of that. Remember also that your skeleton is also "lean mass" but not metabolic mass and you also have to calculate your fat mass based on your body compostion to accurately track this.

You should also be aware that you mentioned that you are on Sustiva AND an anti-depressant. Sustiva is KNOWN to cause severe clinical depression in HIV patients and has resulted in numerous people committing suicide. I know of several cases specfically. Why is your doc maintaining you on this drug if you have symptoms of depression and from the sound of your medications and proposed changes, your depression remains unresolved by having you on an antidepressant? It would be far easier to change you to Viramune and acclimate you to it then keep you on Sustiva. The Viramune is in the same class and if acclimated properly, you should be able to avoid the sometimes fatal Stevens-Johnson symdrome that MAY appear with it (the whole body skin rash which marks the severe allergic reaction that some have to it). Some docs actually use prednisone for a month to suppress your tendency towards allergic reactions while increasing the dose from half dose for two weeks to full dose for two weeks and then withdrawal from prednisone. Just a thought. Other HIV drugs have also been shown to cause/contribute to depression as well. Been there done that too.

Now for the down and dirty. I don't know enough about your experience, length of time weight training, use of supplements, etc. However, I would break your workout up differently and do all back and biceps on the same day instead of having dumbbell row on the same day you do bench or push downs or dumbbell shoulder presses (chest/triceps/shoulders) since you obviously are doing a "split" along the lines of chest/shoulders/triceps on Monday, back/biceps/abs on Wednesday and legs on Friday. I also don't know how long you have been doing this specific routine.

As for question 1: All sets go to failure except warm up sets. Failure being defined as that point where you can no longer lift the weight "in good form"...in other words, you start cheating to finish the rep. Of course this is simplistic because there are many techniques to push failure on out to make it tougher.

As for question 2: All three options will work. None is better or worse than another just different. You should always be trying to make thing "different" to vary your workouts rather than do exactly the same rote thing each time you are in the gym.

As for question 3: Depends on how "you feel"... a half an hour is plenty for some not enough for others. It also depends on how you train and your goals so it MAY be enough but might not be.

As for your meds question: I don't see anything in there to treat lipid problems...have you had this thoroughly broken down, not just total cholesterol? Include a test for tryglycerides. It is hard to imagine that you do not have lipid problems with some of the drugs you are on. As for Sustiva, I discussed above already--try Viramune, may help alleviate your depression which is likely a result or contributed to by Sustiva. I also don't see blood pressure medication how is yours? I also don't see testosterone. Are you on nandrolone decanoate and NOT testosterone replacement? have your free and total testosterone levels been checked? 200 mg deca/week is ok but you may want to consider something more like 10-12 weeks on and 8 weeks off. Also all cycles should stack ON TOP OF testosterone and in case of HIV, it is likely that you should permanently be on replacement levels and cycle on/off above theraputic levels treating the replacement as your "normal" testosterone since most people with HIV produce little or none and I suspect yours would be low anyway because you are doing AAS. By the way, if your doctor THINKS that Androgel is acceptable for testosterone replacement, I have seen MANY lab tests that say otherwise. The amount absorbed through the skin is so small for most people as to be virtually worthless. Use parenteral only (injectible testosterone) for replacement. Has your doc checked the results of Androgel with you to see if it even makes your blood levels come into the normal range? And low normal does NOT cut it with HIV disease. Why doesn't your doc prescribe oxandrin at 20 mg/day instead of you having to buy dbol as I KNOW he doesn't prescribe THAT. Might save you some money and it would be legal as it is approved at that dosage for anti wasting therapy. You could then get a standing scrip and "cycle" eventually working up to 40 mg/day for eight or ten weeks on and eight or ten weeks off (by using it half the time but filling the scrip EVERY MONTH, you can save up during your off cycle to get enough for you cycle--a doc can not precribe it in a "cyclical way" as it then "appears" to the state medical licensing board to "NOT BE prescribed theraputically so he/she is better off writing a standing scrip for it just for your information.).

So hope that helps. It is a lot to digest.
 
Things that have been proven to work on HIV patients.


Nandrolone, oxandrolone, any test, and primo.

All of these 4 AAS do not negatively affect the immune system.

The rest depress it somewhat. Something you simply don't want with HIV.

Possible combination.(Never going over 450mg total AAS/week)

1. 30mg BTG/day + 200mg Test/week

2. 200mg Deca/week + 200mg test/week

3. 300mg Primo/week + 20mg BTG/day

You can play around with the numbers and AAS if you want.

But the most commonly used stack is the BTG + Test one.

Fonz
 
Hi Alanchiras,
I just wanted to reiterate that you should have your doc check your total AND free testosterone levels, especially the NADIR (time when levels would be expected to be at the lowest point such as just BEFORE readministering testosterone for replacement therapy). He should also check your LH and FSH levels--although you will likely have to be come back off AAS for quite some time for this to be very accurate as your HPTA will have to "renormalize" in order to get accurate information as to its status. However, your situation may be such that coming off of AAS may NOT a good idea, in which case, you will have to go through the "trial and error" route followed up by bloodwork to try to determine what works best for you. This is something you need to thoroughly discuss with your physician. Since your physician has you on Androgel, I am making the ASSUMPTION that your testosterone production is BELOW the parameters of what is considered the low end of "normal" or that your testosterone production is completely shut down by HIV.

As I mentioned, Androgel is fairly useless for testosterone REPLACEMENT therapy in HIV patients as a VERY LARGE number of HIV patients produce little testosterone of their own. Depending on the reason(s) that testosterone production is low CAN affect how it should be approached.

For example, if testosterone is low, then your physician should also check your LH and FSH levels, if the levels of LH and FSH are also low, then it is POSSIBLE, but necessarily the case, that the Leydig cells in the testes are not the problem and the problem lies further back in the HPTA axis since these hormones give the "signals" to the testes to produce testosterone. So it is possible that "normal" blood testosterone levels can be achieved by administration of HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin not to be confused with Human Growth Hormone--two entirely different things) alone WITHOUT the administration of testosterone at all and at least the testosterone would be your own, not a synthetic version bound to an ester. This is usually administered by injection of HCG one to three times per week depending on dosage and how "even" your physician believes that it is appropriate or reasonable to maintain levels of testosterone production. This is best determined by "trial and error" using lower doses and checking with follow up blood work to see if the desired result has been achieved. Results shoud always be checked at the anticipated "NADIR" for testosterone levels. If levels of testosterone are not high enough, increase the dosage and repeat until you achieve "normal" blood levels of testosterone AND no longer exhibit clinical signs of low testosterone (i.e. depression, fatigue, lethargy, moodiness, headaches, lack of focus, etc.). If you are unable to achieve "normal" testosterone levels by this method, see the "third possibility" (two paragraphs below) as it is likely that both the HPTA is HIV damaged AND the Testes are HIV damaged as well.

The second possibility is that if your tests for LH and FSH show that you are producing high levels of LH and FSH but your testosterone production remains low, then the problem clearly lies in the testes and injectable testosterone is your only realistic solution. Again, follow up blood tests, drawn at the NADIR will be required to determine the appropriate dosage along with clinical observations regarding sypmtoms of low testosterone by your physician. HCG will NOT work in this case. Androgel will NOT be adequate in this situation either. Androgel only seems to work somewhat in cases where production is in the normal range but the patient may still be exhibiting symptoms of low testosterone anyway. Androgel will only raise blood testosterone levels by a small amount in spite of the fact that doctors will argue that it contains 5 whole grams of testosterone per each packet. Unfortunately, hardly ANY of this will be absorbed through the skin. Accordingly, the amount that is absorbed is so small that it does not appear to depress whatever testosterone production that is already occurring making it fine for someone that only needs to raise levels a small amount but is already in the "normal" range. The result is barely perceptable, typically, at least from a clinical perspective, however.

A third possibility, is that there is some damage to both the HPTA axis due to HIV and the anti HIV meds as well as HIV damage to the Leydig cells in the testes. In this case, you probably have little choice but to go for injectable testosterone. You may want to add HCG shots as well to help "even out" levels as it will still cause some production to occur in the Leydig Cells (depending on the degree of damage) but probably not enough as in this scenario, they are already damaged. So this is something to discuss and get tested by your doc to see what is best for you.

I have yet to see a single case where anyone with HIV and testosterone below the normal range got satisfactory results with Androgel. Until you get your hormone balance and replacement therapy worked out and at least close to reasonably normal, let alone more than, you will have a lot of difficulty making any progress in the lean mass department. Remember, you have to not only get to "normal" effectiveness of your replacement therapy but you also need to work against a very catabolic/wasting inducing disease. You absolutely need to have proper replacement therapy for testosterone as the cornerstone of your LBM and anti wasting treatment.

As for the Nandrolone Decanoate ("Deca"), it has a very important benefit to counteract one of the very insidious side effects of the AZT which you are on. Granted, AZT is no longer given at the high levels of the past that caused such severe suppression of the bone marrow as to warrant surgical removal of the spleen and other "atrocities" to try to keep the resulting anemia from becoming life threatening. However, nonetheless, AZT is notoriously suppressive of bone marrow. It will tend to cause low white blood cells counts, low red blood cell counts, low neutriphill counts, low platelet counts (aspirin, btw, is contraindicated with AZT because the combination has a synergistic effect and has caused death in a number of HIV patients), etc. Deca, on the other hand, works extremely well in driving production of all of the above by the bone marrow so it counteracts this particular "toxic" effect of AZT extremely well. This is probably one of its best uses in HIV to be honest and is nothing to be sneered at. It really does help in a big way and this effect is not limited to AZT alone but to all the other HIV medications that have anemia as a listed side effect or cause bone marrow suppression in one form or another. In fact, one of the labeled uses of Deca is in treating certain types of anemia. From personal observation and experience, I have not seen ANY detrimental side effects of deca at a weekly dose of 200 mg/week even if used very long term and 200 mg/week is considered a "standard" dosage for people with HIV among physicians enlightened enough to prescribe it when appropriate. This dosage seems to work very well from what I have seen and higher dosages like 300 mg/week or 400 mg/week don't seem to yield much additional benefit in terms of driving bone marrow production or increeasing LBM with people with HIV disease. But of course, there are ALWAYS exceptions.

Remember, with HIV there are specific "other" considerations that do not apply to people that are HIV negative concerning AAS. For example, "restarting" the HPTA, once damaged and shut in by HIV disease is not an option as the damage is apparently not reversible. I have yet to see a single case where normal function was restored "naturally" or by any means tried by physicians for this purpose in cases where HPTA function and/or the Leydig Cells in the testes were damaged from HIV--no matter how long the viral load was nondetect or how much other clinical parameters improved with long term treatment. So shutting in your HPTA by AAS is not a primary consideration in cases where it already has been disease damaged anyway. Even long term control of viral load to undetectable levels does not necessarily PREVENT damage to the HPTA or the Leydig Cells in the testes by HIV from happening anyway. In fact, it is quite common to eventually occur with longevity of infection whether the viral load is under control or not. As I mentioned, it is also possible that the damage MAY also be caused by toxicities from the drugs themselves or from other mechanisms. So considering this, I would not be terribly concerned about "cycling" Deca for the "normal reasons" that you may cycle AAS other than it is probably a good idea to give your body a rest periodically from it from time to time.

I do think it encouraging that your physician put you on the Deca. That means he/she trusts you to properly administer self injectible medications. Accordingly, he/she should not have a problem with switching you to injectible testosterone cypionate or testosterone enanthate (there is essentially no difference between these medications in terms of efficacy for testosterone replacement purposes so I wouldn't be concerned at all as to which you are receiving). A simple blood test will no doubt show that the Androgel is not sufficient. Also your depression, in addition to likely being aggravated by Sustiva, could also be a "clinical indication" of low testosterone even if your levels are in the low "normal" range. So something else to consider and discuss with your physician. If you are experiencing periodic headaches, fatique, lethargy and any of the other "symptoms" of low testosterone, this may be exactly what is wrong but quite likely there could also be multiple causes as well since depression can also cause many of these "symptoms" as well. Remember though, testosterone has been administered for treatment of depression and was considered an "accepted practice" at one time in the past as well.

So again, this ran MUCH longer than I had intended but like I said, HIV, working out, LBM and appropriate treatments are VERY complicated issues. However, this is about as simple as I can explain it regarding "Basic Testosterone Replacement Therapy for HIV 101" and "HIV and Deca 101" as well. So I hope this is helpful although, once again, it is a lot to digest.
 
Good morning gentlemen.
I have waited for several days to respond to this thread that I have started for two reasons.
1. I wanted to encourage debate about the subjects I was bring up without influencing any of the debate, and
2. I have not done well with the forced change in psych meds and am currently mentally unstable and have been trying my best to take it easy for a while <hangs head in private shame>.

I wish to thank each and very one of you for your current and possible future contributions to this important thread. My next appointment with my HIV and Cancer doc who gives me my AS and Test therapy is this coming Tuesday. I am HONORED that the world famous Dr. Bruce Dezube of Beth Israel Hospital in Boston would spend his spare time seeing me as his patient. He literally saved my life when my Karposi's Sarcoma lesion were growing and appearing on both the outside and inside of me at the rate of one per day for several months. I had a port installed inside of me for chemotherapy and received many types of treatment, none of which worked. He then, as a last chance, put me into a clinical trial for use of a hyper dose of vitamin A (retin-A) for treatment of my KS. It was brutal - I suffered greatly for several months of therapy. I lost all of the hair on my body, suffered from massive headaches, and had bone dry skin over my entire body. But, somehow, the treatment worked and my life was saved. You can read about this in greater detail in my book 'The Book of Hope' published by Beth Israel Hospital in Boston, Ma. He now over-rules my primary physician who would not give me any immune restoration medication, and gives me my AS and Test treatments. I will be copying this thread and mailing this to him to read this weekend and to follow up on this on Tuesday. I hope to replace the Androgel with at the very least Testem if not injectable Test. I will also ask him about having my try Carintor. When I am feeling emotionally better - enough that I am going back to the gym again, I will respond to everybody's posts on here. Please forgive me that I cannot do so now. Thank you all.
 
Fonz said:
Things that have been proven to work on HIV patients.


Nandrolone, oxandrolone, any test, and primo.

All of these 4 AAS do not negatively affect the immune system.

The rest depress it somewhat. Something you simply don't want with HIV.

Possible combination.(Never going over 450mg total AAS/week)

1. 30mg BTG/day + 200mg Test/week

2. 200mg Deca/week + 200mg test/week

3. 300mg Primo/week + 20mg BTG/day

You can play around with the numbers and AAS if you want.

But the most commonly used stack is the BTG + Test one.

Fonz

Sounds good to me. Here in Canada, the most common cocktail given to AIDS/HIV patient is Deca 200mg and test 100mg/week (in fact, one injection every two weeks). Oxandrin is not approved and only given as part of experimental treatments. Docs here are not crazy about this, same with anadrol (only prescribed to anemia patients).

The option no2 makes the most sense to me. SInce you had liver failure I would stay away from 17aa and Primo is hard to get these days, not to mention its price, while you can have your deca paid by your insurance (I assume).
 
Hi Alanchiras,
I just read your morning post including the part about the depression. I had pretty much surmised that your anti-depressants were not working for you from what you said in your original post. The truth is that none of them probably will work well enough to overcome the depression inducing side effects of Sustiva if you are one of the many that are affected by this medication in this way. Sustiva is the most potent psychiatrically interactive of ALL of the HIV medications BY FAR and is contraindicated for people with known depression or those that exhibit depression while on it. In fact, the labeling even indicates that you should tell your physician IMMEDIATELY IF YOU SHOW SIGNS OF SORROW OR HOPELESSNESS. Yes they put it in upper case because it is THAT serious. You can check the package insert for yourself if you don't believe me. Many suicides have been directly attributed to this drug for this reason. I know from personal experience that the only way to resolve the depression to any significant degree is removal from Sustiva. I STRONGLY advise you to find an alternative and I can NOT EMPHASIZE this any more than this. That is why I suggested Viramune, since it is in the same class as Sustiva. Another possible choice would be Delavardine which is also in the same class. Partly this depends on your viral resistance pattern although just because a test says a drug won't work, doesn't mean that actually is the case. Only use genotype and phenotype resistance tests as VERY CRUDE gestimates. I have seen many instances were the tests indicated viral resistance but due to lack of available options and patient was put on a drug(s) that they supposedly had viral resistance to and the drugs worked anyway. So something to keep in mind. Not all tests are perfect. The real world often CAN be quite different than what the tests predict. If you want to know the contact information of a physician that routinely uses the "acclimation" method for patients to Viramune, I will be willing to send it to you by private email. He is located in Chicago and has a large HIV practice in that city. Using his method, he has never had a single case of the skin rash or allergic reaction that is the basis of the black box warning with Viramune and he told me that he had done hundreds of these at THAT time (which was several years ago). I was acclimated to Viramune using this method also and did not have any problems whatsoever. The BIG concern that most physicians will have is "prednisone?"--and then the knee jerk "it is immunosuppressive!" That IS exactly the point. It is used in a dosage to somewhat and temporarily suppress your system for a month while you are acclimated to the new HIV drug so that you don't develop an allergic reaction to it. I was a little leary of it too when I first heard of it years several years ago but have to admit, it worked like a charm and there were apparently no other "bad" effects from it.

Also, why does your physician have you on four anti-retrovirals, three nukes (NRTI's although the method of Viread is very slightly different from the others as it is technically a "nucleotide" rather than "nucleoside" drug), AZT, 3TC AND Viread as well as Sustiva (NNRTI)? Is this a form of "salvage therapy?" If this is first line therapy, one of the drugs should probably be removed or replaced with another being removed, depending on the specifics of your situation. You should seriously discuss this with your physician as more is not necessarily better but will increase toxicities significantly. You are only looking to control the virus, these drugs will NOT eradicate it from your system. That is a known fact.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Androgel is fairly useless for testosterone REPLACEMENT therapy in HIV patients. To be honest, Testoderm also has been shown to be totally inaffective and is considered a joke by many in terms of adequacy for hormonal replacement in HIV positive patients. I believe that this has actually been demonstrated in studies outside of clinical practice. It works even less well than Androgel. If you are hypogonadal because of HIV, the only realistic method of testosterone replacement that will work is by injection, whether it is a combination of HCG and Testosterone or just HCG or just testosterone, depending on the reasons. In all likelihood, with HIV disease, there is damage to both the HPTA AND the Testes so you most likely will need some sort of injectible testosterone as part or all of your hormonal replacement therapy.

One other thing, since your physician is not familiar with administering or prescribing androgens, just be advised that your hematocrit will likely end up around 52-55 on your lab tests which will make your physician concerned that your blood is becoming "too thick." He will automatically want to pull you off of them out of concern that the hematocrit will go higher and could cause blood clots, etc. However, it will typically not go any higher even if you were to do MUCH higher doses than what your physician will ever prescribe for you. There appears to be a natural limit to it actually. A lab result of 52-55 for Hematocrit is probably ok over the long haul provided you have your lipids under control so you aren’t slowly "sludging up" your arteries, etc. over time.

So, the long and the short of it:

First, GET OFF OF THE SUSTIVA and on to some other HIV drug cocktail regimine ASAP! You may wish to continue on with the anti-depressants as some of the brain chemistry issues associated with Sustiva may not go away for quite some time and some alterations to the brain from this drug appear to be permanent. However, your depression will not likely be able to be resolved, even with anti-depressants, as long as you are on this drug. You should also try to locate a psychiatrist that is also familiar with HIV drugs and their depression inducing side effects (Sustiva is not the only one that can cause this but is certainly the most severe BY FAR) to get properly evaluated as to what anti-depressant is appropriate for you once you get your anti-retroviral cocktail resolved and acclimate to it. It is VERY likely that you will need to go to a large city like Boston to find someone that meets this requirement. Hopefully, you can get a referral.

Secondly, get your hormonal replacement therapy straightened out. Androgel is a waste of time and Testoderm is even more worthless for this purpose. And while you are at it, have total cholesterol and a full lipid profile done, including tryglicerides. Your HIV meds are likely to cause major scues in your lipids and MAY elevate your cholesterol and triglicerides significantly while typically also depressing your HDL. Your andgrogens will also depress your HDL which is one of the negatives so you need to monitor your lipids closely. Androgens are NOTORIOUS for causing miserable lipid profiles and this only compounds with the effects of the HIV medications which strongly tend to do the same thing.

Third, you should have a body composition analysis done to establish a "baseline" compostion for monitoring of trends relative to lean body mass. The cheapest but least accurate way is by Bio Impedence Analysis (BIA). Usually, you have to locate an HIV nutritionist for this service as most physicians are not that familiar with it outside of major urban HIV practices. Don't worry about the so called "absolute" numbers as they are not accurate from one person to the next. The way it reads is fairly consistent within the specific person so it is actually fairly accurate in determining which way things are heading, not your actual percentage of lean body mass or fat mass. So treat those numbers with a grain of salt. The only accurate way to find that information out is through a hydrostatic tank weighing which you can get done for a small fee at most major universities that have a sports medicine department or by having a Dexascan done which would have to be done by a medical facility. Personally, i would only be concerned with trends, not absolutes.

Fourth, you should have your anti-wasting therapy worked out based on your BIA and body compostions and other lab tests and clinical evaluation. This would include drugs like Oxandrin or Anadrol 50 and Deca (although from my experience, Deca works wonders in counteracting the very negative side effects from AZT on the bone marrow and may actually be more beneficial in this regard than actually adding a whole lot of lean body mass). Something to consider since you are on AZT.

Fifth, get back to the gym. It actually does make you feel better and has been shown to help improve mood. I realize that depression is an "energy zapper" but once you get off of the Sustiva and get re-energized by proper hormone replacement and maybe even some androgen therapy for anti wasting, you may find things start to improve in this department and you may also start to remember what it was like when you didn't have "vivid dreams" and excessive amounts of REM sleep and actually got a decent and proper ratio of deep sleep to REM sleep every night. I am convinced that this all contributes to fatigue, by the way.

Oh, and by the way, I have done AAS at levels FAR higher than any physician that I know of will prescribe to an HIV patient. I have also done them for a relatively long period of time, cycling largely off at times to "give my body a rest" and I also have KS but it has never impacted it. However, that is me, your situation could be different. There is some concern that very high levels of androgens could restart KS but these are at levels that are many TIMES higher than what ANY physician is going to prescribe to you for theraputic reasons. There is a BIG difference. I know of an HIV researcher that has studied this specific issue and presented the information at a previous International Aids Conference. I can provide contact information for him as well in private email.

Good luck on your Tuesday appointment. You have a LOT to discuss and will not have a lot of time to go over it. So be prepared and make your case!
 
Incidently, while you are in Boston, if you do get a phenotype/genotype test, you may want to find out if you have clade C HIV clinical isolate. If this is the case, you should probably not even be on Sustiva because this drug will almost certainly cause the development of a high level resistance mutation, V106M, at codon 106. If V106M resistance develops, this means that you will have high level resistance to ALL of the NNRTIs, not just Sustiva. The reverse, however, has not been demonstrated--pressure to develop V106M resistance has only been shown in clade C isolates in the pressence of Sustiva not the other NNRTIs. This information was updated by the International Aids Society in March 2003 along with the addition of the first multi-resistance bar for the NNRTIs at V106M. Just another possible reason to discuss getting off of Sustiva with your doc and substituting with a different NNRTI-that is if V106M resistance has not already occurred. Also, consider that the rather SERIOUS depression issue associated with Sustiva is not particularly associated with the other NNRTIs (delavirdine or nevirapine) either. Just more food for thought.
 
In your original post, you said:
"For antiretorvirals, I am taking the following: Combivir as AZT & 3TC (YES, I know AZT is poison, but it works for me.) Sustiva, and Viread. I take Effoxor ex for depression and will be soon changing it to Mirtazapine. Prochorperazine for nausea, Trazdone for sleep, and Avandia for appitiate. "

Sorry to keep posting but I am still pondering why you are on this combination? I feel like whatever physician(s) that put you on this combination really missed the boat on several very serious issues and has gotten caught in the "medical rut" of just treating and chasing symptoms rather than looking at the whole of the situation--especially "quality of life" issues and cause and effect, not to mention the potentially life threatening depression which is a listed side effect of Sustiva. And this is actually a very easy problem to get caught up into over time as most physcians are very overworked in this field and do not have a lot of time to consider your individual situation. So it is really up to you to point out what is going well and what is wrong. You have to learn to work WITH your HIV practitioner. It seems to me that you are overdue for a complete re-evaluation of all of your clincal symptoms, overall health, anti-HIV therapy, hormonal replacement therapy, anti-wasting therapy, body compostion analysis, etc.

Did your doctor ever consider taking you off of combivir and putting you on two times per day epivir @ 150 mg/tab PLUS Viread PLUS an NNRTI other than Sustiva?

Sorry to tell you this but AZT is NOTORIOUS for gastrointestinal problems and causing loss of appetite--considerable more so than any other NRTI. Aside from the fact that it is also quite suppressive of bone marrow (which is why you should probably be on 200 mg/week of Deca while on AZT). It is also THE MOST likely source of your nausea and lack of appetite out of everything you are taking BY FAR and if it is causing any significant degree of bone marrow suppression in you, it will also cause a significant degree of general fatigue or lack of energy as well.

Also since Viread, Epivir and AZT are all essentially in the same class of drug (viread being very slightly different) and therefore the mode of action is similar, it can also be expected that similar side effects are most probably additive as the mechanisms for causing them are most likely also similar (I am treating this from a basic toxicological aspect). The AZT is the MOST TOXIC of those three drugs but does not necessarily suppress the virus to any greater degree than the others so my STRONG gut reaction is that AZT is the one I would remove from the combination considering this from a viewpoint of benefits to side effects. Dropping the AZT MIGHT allow you to drop taking the anti-nausea medication and the appetite stimulant medication after enough time has elapsed for the AZT to clear out of your system and your system reaclimates.

The other change I can not stress considering strongly enough is substituting the Sustiva with a different NNRTI. This would certainly allow you to sleep better and may actually allow you to drop the Trazadone and eventually ween off of anti-depressants over time as well. My gut reaction is that you are overmedicated to be honest. I think changing your basic anti-retroviral therapy may help you make these deletions. Often, less is better. Remember, the more prescription medications you are on, the more likely it becomes to have cross drug interactions and increased side effects across the board. The chances of "nonlisted" side effects also increases due to combinations of interacting drugs as this is something that is virtually impossible to anticipate during the studies performed to determine side effects and safety when first seeking FDA approval of the medication. One other thing to remember is that the depression caused by Sustiva often becomes life threatening. It is not uncommon for people on Sustiva to have suicide ideation and this is not to be taken lightly. Remind your doctor that Sustiva is CONTRA-INDICATED for people showing signs of depression.

You should also consider that by being on three NRTIs and one NNRTI, I still don't see how you are accomplishing anything more than a three drug combo of two NRTIs and one NNRTI such as a combination of Epivir, Viread and a different NNRTI than Sustiva, preferably Viramune which has been shown to be equally potent and durable as Sustiva. Delavirdine would be my second choice. But then again, I don't know what your viral load or T-cells are, your drug history, or what your CBC or Chems look like and I don't have any resistance pattern information about you either. So just more stuff to discuss with your physician.

Since you are going to your physician tomorrow, you need to discuss getting the basic stuff that he can help you with in order of priorities. That means that you need to focus on getting your basic HIV anti-retroviral medications straightened out first so that you can move to cut out all unnecessary prescription medications as your system readjusts. Then you also need to getting testing done as suggested in my previous posts to help straighten out your hormonal situation and check your lipid situation and work with your physician to establish appropriate hormone replacement therapy for you. Then you need to get some body compostion testing done (Bio-Impedence Analysis) so you can establish a baseline for evaluating the efficacy of your anti-wasting therapy/medications which you should absolutely be on with HIV disease.

One of the many problems with most HIV physicians is that many are adamant about NOT changing your anti-retroviral therapy if it is working to control your viral load and your T-Cells appear to be "ok." This is very myopic and does not consider the whole of the situation or quality of life. It also very badly underestimates such things as the very real danger posed by depression induced by Sustiva in particular. If your physician is of this mindset, I would strongly suggest you find another HIV practioner--one that will work WITH you as well as one that is extremely knowledgeable. Just a word of advice.
 
In your original post you said:
"It should be know that I was previously on Oxandrin but had liver failure on it and had to stop taking it."

OOOPPPSS, I have to admit that I totally missed that. How long were you on oxandrin for and at what dosage? Did you develop Peliosis Hepatis (blood filled cysts) or any kind of liver cell tumors? Did you develop jaundice? Do you have previous liver damage from alcohol or drug use? I had assumed that you do not have chronic hep C because of the anti-retroviral medications that you are on and the fact that your physician should have screened you for this as a matter of practice before prescribing them. Am I still safe in assuming no hep C? In the absence of any SPECIFICS, I would be VERY concerned about you doing ANY oral anabolic steroids (which are typically 17-alkylated) in light of this including the dbol, even at the low dosage that you indicated. I would also avoid (injectible) Winstrol Depot as it is also a 17-alkylated anabolic steroid.

Just for your information, my current HIV physician was involved in several of the clinical and safety studies of anabolic steroids in HIV patients. He has admitted that he has not seen any instances of liver toxicity from injectible testosterone (cypionate or enanthate--US pharmaceutical made, of course) or nandrolone decanoate so these should be alright, certainly at the doses that typically would be prescribed for HIV patients--which I mentioned before are typically 200 mg/week for nandrolone decanoate and 100-200 mg/every one or two weeks (depending on your blood tests and clinical evaluation by your physician) of injectible testosterone, although I am aware that this is sometimes prescribed as high as 400 mg/week for HIV patients. But like I said, it is a highly individual matter based on appropriate lab work and your physician's clinical evaluation of its efficacy--i.e. observing to see if you still exhibit symptoms of low testosterone even if you are in the "normal range" as there are hormonal resistance issues with many people with HIV which means that "normal" levels may not generate a "normal" response as it would in someone that is HIV negative. There are quite a few physicians that have observed that "high normal" range (total blood testosterone levels above 700 ng/dl) may be more appropriate for people with long term HIV or people that have been previously diagnosed with full blown AIDS. Again it is a clinical and professional judgement call that you need to discuss with your physician.
 
I have been told by my Psych doctor to drop the Mirtazapine he prescribed and to go it for awhile without any anti-depression meds to see if it helps and to see about the effects of Sustiva. The reason that i've been on Sustiva is that I received great benefit from it when used with Effoxor EX. I had good, positive dreams on it and a good nights sleep on it. Also, the one pill a day helps with my high pill burden. So we shall see in the next couple of days how my sleep and other things work out. Thanks esp. to NorCalBdyBldr for his advice. Well, time for me to go see my AS and Test doc. Will give a report tonight. Thanks!
 
An update on my visit with my AS and Test Doctor. He has written a script for me for Carnitor now, as well as all the other stuff I get from him. I had my Blood tested for total and free Test and will give you all the results when they get back from the lab. I am now also off all Psych meds to see just what is needed to be done in order for me to be able to continue to take Sustiva without the possible negative side effects. I have also decided that the easiest way for me to make my crunches harder, that I am going to put the crunch board up one peg higher for the next week and see how it goes. I finally got something like a decent night's sleep and am ready to go back to the gym today. It's an arm day (UGH!) but i'll get through it. Will answer more of the previous comments later today. Thanks!
 
Hi Alanchiras
In your recent post, you said:
“I have been told by my Psych doctor to drop the Mirtazapine he prescribed and to go it for awhile without any anti-depression meds to see if it helps and to see about the effects of Sustiva. The reason that i've been on Sustiva is that I received great benefit from it when used with Effoxor EX. I had good, positive dreams on it and a good nights sleep on it. Also, the one pill a day helps with my high pill burden.”

In your original post, you stated that you were being removed from Effexor EX and being placed on Mirtazapine. By your own admission, you have been suffering from depression (no need to hang head in shame, by the way). I suspect that you have not been doing as well in the depression department as you believed your were on the Effexor EX since your psychiatrist was removing you from Effexor EX and putting you on a different anti-depressant, Mirtazapine. If you were doing well, then why would he change your medication unless you were having some other adverse physical reaction to the Effexor EX? Now, you are planning on not using ANY anti-depressants but ARE continuing on with the Sustiva (which if not THE source of your depression is LIKELY to be contributing to it in a significant way). Let me reiterate, depression in conjunction with Sustiva should not be taken lightly. This is a VERY SERIOUS matter. Numerous people have committed suicide on this drug and, yes, it was attributed to the Sustiva. I personally know several that either succeeded or attempted it while taking Sustiva. I do not know if you have a history of depression or when it “appeared.” So, again, considering my ignorance of the specifics of your situation (and that is why you need to discuss this thoroughly with your physician AND psychiatrist), I would like to point out several things that are KNOWN about Sustiva although the original studies that led to its approval were a little “premature” being that it was fast-tracked through FDA under the shortened approval process.

First, the ratio of REM sleep to deep sleep is skewed. You are likely getting FIVE times more REM sleep than you would under normal conditions—don’t believe me? Have your physician prescribe a “sleep study” for you and find out for yourself. Secondly, you will also be likely getting almost NO deep sleep of any significance. This means, at best, you have VERY “abnormal” sleep. Common sense alone would indicated that this is NOT a good thing and would also tend to counter your perception that you have “good positive dreams on Sustiva and a good nights sleep on it.” Most people that I know have described the dreams as being everything from blood curdling screaming yourself awake while profusely sweating full blown and horrible nightmares at the one extreme to being akin to “dropping acid” for those that have used and are familiar with the effects of LSD, to “vivid and unsettling dreams” to just “vivid dreams with extreme color” on the milder end. EVERYONE reports LOTS of dreams--WAY beyond anything considered normal. The ONLY people that I have ever known that actually LIKE the dreams tend to be people that are artists or graphic designers as they are typically very visual people and get into the vividness and interesting “Technicolor” of the dreams. Most people find them “disturbing” or “unsettling.” I have never heard anyone (until you) claim that they actually “got a good nights sleep on Sustiva.” Most seem to suffer from some form of fatigue (probably BECAUSE of the lack of restful sleep). In any case, the abnormal sleep pattern alone induced by Sustiva simply CANNOT be a good thing over the long haul—common sense alone would tell you this.

Secondly, as for pill burden, this is understandable. This is THE bane of all that are under treatment for HIV. As I said, I suspect that you are being overmedicated and you definitely need to discuss this situation with your physician. That being said, I would be extremely concerned about you being removed from an anti-depressant without removal from the most likely CAUSE or strongest CONTRIBUTER of the depression in the first place, the Sustiva. This is a brain chemistry effect caused by the Sustiva, which does, in fact, cross the blood-brain barrier. Although the original studies reported the incidences of serious depression from Sustiva as significant, they also tended to minimize them and still do compared with clinical “real world” observations. Real world experience and follow up information now indicates that this was terribly understated. The depression inducing effects of Sustiva are almost legendary. And frankly, the reason why the FDA hasn't issued a "black box warning" regarding Sustiva and psychiatric disorders is probably more a matter of political influence, marketing and politics than it is of science. Also, depending on what version you are prescribed, Sustiva is usually administered as three capsules once per day or one tablet once per day. Viramune, on the other hand is administered as one tablet two times per day so I don’t think this should unreasonably impact your daily pill burden. It may also allow you to withdraw from the anti depressant AND your sleeping aid, the Trazadone so you would be taking TWO less medications overall since Viramune does not impact sleep patterns the way that Sustiva does.

And if you don’t believe me, here are some excerpts from the 2003 Physician’s Deck Reference concerning Sustiva:

“Psychiatric Symptoms: Serious psychiatric adverse experiences have been reported in patients treated with SUSTIVA.”

It further states that specific incidences of severe psychiatric events include severe depression, suicidal ideation, nonfatal suicide attempts, aggressive behavior, paranoid reaction and manic reactions by percentages. It then goes on to state:

“Patients with a history of psychiatric disorders appear to be at greater risk of these serious psychiatric adverse experiences”...

It further states:

...”There have also been occasional post-marketing reports of death by suicide, delusions and psychosis-like behavior, although a causal relationship to the use of SUSTIVA cannot be determined from these reports. Patients with serious psychiatric adverse experiences should seek immediate medical evaluation to assess the possibility that the symptoms may be related to the use of SUSTIVA, and if so, to determine whether the risks of continued therapy outweigh the benefits (see ADVERSE REACTIONS ).”

Remember, there are usually many options on how to control your viral load. If you are experiencing negative side effects from one treatment regimen then it is best to explore OTHER options. Depression is a serious quality of life issue that can also become life threatening. I simply CANNOT state this any more strongly with this drug. It works extremely well for MANY people BUT should NEVER be used in ANYONE with a history of substance abuse, depression or anyone experiencing symptoms of depression while on it. If you are experiencing depression, it will not resolve while on this drug so you should be removed from it ASAP and a different anti-retroviral substituted. I do not know of a single case where anti-depressants could resolve depression caused by Sustiva either. Substitution with a different anti-retroviral represents your best available option to be honest.
 
The only reason that i've been taken off Effoxor EX is because of belt-tighting on Beacon Hill, that MassHealth will no longer cover it because of the high cost. My Psych doc is trying to find a substuite drug to replace the Effexor that works as well for me that will be covered by my insurance company. While I was on Effexor EX and Sustiva I had done very welll on it. My depression actually came out of bad side effects from the substitute drug. Now that for the first time in twelve years I am off all anti-depressant meds, it will be a good time to reassess my mental health - with the Sustiva too. If I have to come off Sustiva, I will do it; but we are hoping to identify my current real-life reaction to not being on any Psych meds and then it will be clearer to myself and my Psych doc as to how to go about attacking my lifelong depression. I DO hear you loud and clear about the risks to my mental health with Sustiva. We are well aware of it and are working with the situation from day to day. For example, it may be just a little maina that i'm feeling now, but I finally fell that I can handle going to the gym today - and it's my hardest day for me (arms.) My viral load has been very low but not yet undetectable, so that's why the highly odd four drug regiem. I have been told that I can drop one of the drugs when I become undetectiable (<25). I have been one of the lucky ones - I could fill a book with the great, positive dreams that Sustiva has given me. It actually makes me look forward to go to bed. I know this is not the case will all users, I am one of the lucky ones. It also helpes keep me away from taking any Protease Inhibitors, so I can save that option for use in the future. Well, off to the YMCA I go. Will have some lab results later tonight or Thur at the latest (no CD4 or viral load until next week.) Thanks to all that are concern. ---You know, there is a line from the Pet Shop Boys cover of the Village People song Go West. It says that we will learn and teach. It does seem that we all are doing a lot of that with this thread. Thanks.
 
Here are my lab results:

COMPLETE BLOOD COUNT (BLOOD)

DATE
WBC
4.0-11.0
K/uL
RBC
4.6-6.2
m/uL
Hgb
14.0-18.0
g/dL
Hct
40-52
%
MCV
82-98
fL
MCH
27-32
pg
MCHC
31-35
%
RDW
10.5-15.5
%

07/22/03 2:01P
5.3
3.51*
14.3
41.3
118*
40.8*
34.7
15.8*

BASIC COAGULATION (BLOOD)

DATE
PT
11.3-13.3
sec
PT Mean

sec
PTT
22.0-35.0
sec
PTT Mea

sec
Plt Smr

Plt Ct
150-440
K/uL
BLEED T
2-8
MINUTES
FIBRINO
200-400
MG/DL
FSP
0-10
UG/ML
INR(PT)

MPV
7.2-9.4
fL
LPlt

PltClmp


07/22/03 2:01P





334








ENZYMES & BILIRUBIN (BLOOD)

DATE
ALT
0-40
IU/L
AST
0-40
IU/L
LD(LDH)
94-250
IU/L
CK(CPK)
38-174
IU/L
AlkPhos
39-117
IU/L
Amylase
0-100
IU/L
TotBili
0-1.5
mg/dL
DirBili
0-.3
mg/dL
IndBili

mg/dL

07/22/03 2:01P (2)
55*
HEMOLYSIS FALSELY ELEVATES ALT(SGPT)
54*
HEMOLYSIS FALSELY ELEVATES AST


55

0.4



(2) Lipemic Specimen; Slightly Hemolyzed

OTHER ENDOCRINE (BLOOD)

DATE
Cortsol
2-20
ug/dL
11-DOC
0-.12
ug/dL
Aldost

ng/dL
Renin

ng/mL/hr
Testost
280-800
ng/dL
FreeTes
7.2-23.0
pg/mL
DHEA-SO
88.9-427
ug/dL

07/22/03 4:15P





PND


07/22/03 2:01P (4)




323



(4) Lipemic Specimen; Slightly Hemolyzed

Hope this all formats right on this site. Well, anything to worry about?
 
Hi Alan,
It was nice chatting with you a while ago. If I recall, you said your total testosterone is around 323 dl/ng out of a laboratory reference range of 280-800. This barely puts you in the low side of "normal" which is NOT going to cut it for HIV. This is inspite of the fact that you are on Androgel "replacement" therapy. I pretty much would have assumed that or worse. For me, Androgel at 10 grams per day has been demonstrated time and again to only raise blood total testosterone levels about 50 dl/ng. which is practically nothing. It is about enough to take the "edge" off of a low testosterone headache but not enough to make it go away. So forget about being able to realistically gain or hold on to lean mass on that. It simply is NOT enough to pull you through the long haul.

To be honest, you should strive to keep your testosterone levels above at least 500 ng/dl, even at the NADIR. You have to remember that you are not only trying to replace testosterone to approximately mid-range normal levels which in your case the midpoint of the lab reference range is 550 ng/dl but also you are working against a disease that is catabolic by nature.

Remember, with HIV infection, your body is greatly impaired in its ability to metabolize fat and therefore, if you get "knocked down" with any kind of illness, your immune system goes right for the protein stores (metabolic lean body mass--muscle and organ tissue) which it would do to some degree even in HIV negative folks but additionally, while sick your body will burn your lean mass for fuel as well since it really can't burn fat well enough to use in this situation. What is even worse than this is that once the illness is over and you return to "baseline" HIV infection, your body will sense the loss of lean body mass and treat it like starvation. This means that you will have an added propenstity to convert sugars and starches that you eat to fat and store them as fat which you can't use. Physicians that do not measure and track body compostional changes with time but only weigh you on a scale may not even realize that wasting is going on because your overall body weight may not be changing at all but your percentage of bodyfat is increasing and your lean mass is wasting away. And this can be occurring for a couple of years before it becomes obvious to your health care provider if they are only using a scale.

On top of this, your body is fighting a "permanent" infection which your system is not designed to do so it becomes a problem of chronic depletion. This is why wasting it common in HIV positive patients even if they have undectable viral loads. There are studies that show the immune system of a typical person with HIV clears between 1-2 billion viral particles per day throughout the entire course of the disease. This means there is an abnormally high protein expenditure and the whole process is catabolic. So to help counteract this and return the nitrogen balance to a more favorable condition, you need some anabolic therapy as well as higher than "normal" testosterone levels. You are not dealing with "normal" conditions by any means. You will absolutely need to supplement higher than normal amounts of protein to protect the protein that you have as well as add any as well. However, the combination of HIV meds which are liver toxic and strong protein binding androgens like testosterone in combination with heavy protein supplementation can cause some serious "clearance problems" for the liver as well. Remember, you are not dealing with normal conditions. As a result, even on androgens, I would not exceed 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight per day and would probably be inclined to keep it more like 1 gram per pound of total bodyweight in your case since you have already had liver problems. And don't worry about what the competitive bodybuilders that you read about do. Your situation is completely different and there are a lot of additional considerations to take into account.

Further, there tends to be some general hormonal resistance issues with HIV that means that "normal" testosterone levels are not as effective in an HIV positive person as they would be in someone that is HIV negative as I discussed above in previous posts. So considering that, it is not surprising that some doctors have found that total testosterone levels below 700 ng/dl do not work well or at all in many HIV positive patients. It is also common for people with HIV to exhibit clinical symptoms of low testosterone (as I discussed in previous posts above) at levels certainly below 500 ng/dl or even at higher levels which will come as quite a shock to doctors not experienced in dealing with this issue directly. There is an interesting article that makes this case on www.medibolics.com and one of the doctors involved in the study was Doctor Judith Radkin, I believe out of New York State. Personally, it has been my own observation that levels below this do not work very well either but this is a strictly anecdotal, rather that strictly scientific observation, based on my own lab work and compared with the lab work of quite a few others. However, I have seen and experienced enough to suggest that this is fairly accurate as I have been heavily involved in this issue since about 1995 when I suffered a major "knockdown event" and lost 30 lbs.--I dropped from 227 lbs to 197 lbs and had never used any anabolic substance before in my life. My testosterone levels had fallen off the bottom of the chart also and that was the beginning of a long fight to get replacement therapy when it was not "popular" (not like it is now either but it was considered pretty far out there back then). I finally insisted on doing it "the scientific way" and making a change, letting things stabilize and then testing to see what the result was as a reasonable approach that I was able to get my physician on board with as logical.

As a recap there are three issues to consider, HIV is catabolic by nature, general hormonal resistance issues that seems to get worse with time of infection and treatment, and hormonal replacement. So you need for your doctor to learn to think outside of the box in terms of hormones as this goes beyond strict replacement and is also trying to deal with the other issues as well. You can cycle above, on and off, of the replacement amount but should always maintain your basic testosterone replacement therapy as the cornerstone of your anti-wasting program.

In your case, there is one additional consideration. Since you are probably ill advised to use any oral steroids which are all 17 alkylated and you have had problems with oxandrin already (Anadrol is the only other oral one approved in the US for HIV anti-wasting therapy and is a lot harsher because it is dosed MUCH higher than Oxandrin), I would think it reasonable for your physician to allow you to be dosed a little higher than normal to account for the fact that you can not be taking these for anti wasting therapy. In your case, you should be using testosterone and deca as your primary anti-wasting medications since you really don't have many other legal options (Serostim, although approved for anti-wasting therapy, is NOT very good for gaining much lean body mass and is tremendously expensive so the clinical benefit versus the cost and high side effects makes it a poor choice overall but it does have its specific uses but those are outside of what I am trying to cover here). The cost of testosterone is actually quite reasonable in terms of its benefit versus cost so overall it is a very good choice.

Any dose of testosterone prescribed above what you need for replacement should be used for 8-12 week "cycles" above your replacement dose with an equal time off. However, your doctor can not prescribe in a "cyclical manner" as this is not considered theraputic and could get him cross-wise with the State Medical Licensing Board. So he should consider your "on-cycle" dose as well as your standard dose and write a standing scrip for the total. You then take your standard replacement dose and "save up" the extra until you have gone 8-12 weeks and have enough "extra" to cycle above the standard dose. Believe it or not, there are some physicians that know that this is what their patients are doing and are ok with it as there is a genuine theraputic benefit in increasing lean mass. Also some studies have shown a lessoning of a host of other metabolic related problems like lipodystrophy with increased testosterone levels in HIV positive patients as well.

But first things first as this is a process. You need to first figure out what the proper dose for replacment is by trying a dose, say 100 mg/week and then say come back in one month and if you are due for an injection on Friday evening, get your level tested on Friday afternoon (at the NADIR--lowest anticipated level) before you get your shot. Then, based on the lab results, your physician may be justified in upping the dosage to say 200 mg/week or whatever he feels will put you in the target range. Once you are in the target range, he needs to observe you clinically, which he should be doing all along, and determine if you are still showing signs of low testosterone, like fatigue, depression, headaches, etc. and fine tune adjust accordingly. After the replacment dosage is established, then you can discuss with him the possibility of "a bit more" for the purpose of minor cycles to increase lean body mass so you can establish a buffer as this can be VERY important to have this protein reserve in case you get sick.

So I hope this helps. Once again, this is very long.
 
A few leftovers:

I take a couple of 1-AD capsules a day. Is this something that I should be doing, or is this just a big waste of money?

I have an appointment with my Doctor obsessed with CD4 and viral load figures. I'm going to try to get her to run teste for cholesterol & Tryglycerides.

There was mention of something called BTG - what is this???

I am HEP C negative (don't know how)

Thanks all.
 
Hi Alan,
You said:
"I take a couple of 1-AD capsules a day. Is this something that I should be doing, or is this just a big waste of money?"

Personally, I think prohormones are a complete waste of money so I wouldn't bother with them. As much as they cost, I would be far more inclined to spend my cash for something that actually works, like AAS.
 
Hi Alan,
You said:
"Just recieved my free Test test results. With a normal range of 7.2-23.0 I scored a OK 15.0."

This is a bit "abnormal" in that your free (unbound) testosterone levels are mid normal range. However, from what you told me during our chat, your total (bound plus unbound) testosterone levels are at the very bottom of normal (323 ng/dl with a laboratory reference range of 280-800 ng/dl) even with your Androgel "testosterone replacement" therapy (I did warn you that Androgel is fairly useless and will likely only raise your blood total testosterone levels by about 50 ng/dl). Frankly, you would typically expect that free testosterone should also be low if total is low under normal circumstances. So this brings up some questions and theories as this descrepancy is suggestive of possibly one or more things.

The first theory goes something like this. There used to be a medical theory that you had a set number of hormone (androgen) receptors and that number never changes. That would explain why AAS work much better for some guys than for others right from the start and not very well for some others. Some people CLEARLY have a higher receptor density and therefore a greater ability to process and utilize testosterone. The higher the number of receptors, i.e. the higher receptor density, that you have, the more testosterone you can process. This WAS and still IS, to a large degree, the CONVENTIONAL medical thinking.

Now there are some more recent theories circulating out there that the receptor density is not fixed but can fluctuate to some degree--still largely dependent on the individual genetics though. So guys that have continuously higher levels of testosterone circulating in their systems MAY actually increase the receptor density as a biological response within their specific genetic limitations. Once again, some guys will be more genetically "gifted" in this department as well. From personal observation and information, I strongly suspect that this second theory is correct. Namely, that the receptor density CAN vary in response to long term elevation of testosterone levels. This seems to make intuitive sense from a biological perspective as well.

So in your case, following this second theory, it is suggestive that maybe because your testosterone levels have been so low for so long, that the converse is true--namely that your receptor density is also quite low because there is no need to process very much testosterone simply because there just isn't much available over the long haul. Your body has just simply come to a new equilibrium so that you only process enough testosterone so that your circulating levels remain at mid normal and therefore equilibrium. This new equilibrium is what in biology is called "homeostasis"--the body's biological tendency to establish and maintain equilibrium or the "status quo." In bodybuilding, we also know that homeostasis can be changed to new equilibriums but it takes a lot of effort to overcome this. It is usually referred to in terms of body weight as changing "setpoints" but does apply, not surprisingly, to all kinds of other things like body composition, etc. as well. Once a new "setpoint" is established, your body will want to return to this equilibrium very strongly.

Assuming that the second theory is correct concerning receptor density and ability to process testosterone, it can be inferred that your body has lost its ability to process testosterone much above its current equilibrium (total testosterone levels permanently on the low side). Again, assuming the theory is correct, administration of testosterone to maintain your total testosterone levels above the mid normal range would be expected to force the body to adapt and increase the receptor density and therefore improve its ability to process testosterone in a more "normal" way over time. Anyway, this is just theory but it does seem to explain some things that have been observed in HIV patients and some others (non HIV). For example, you likely will be exhibiting symptoms of low testosterone (like depression, etc.) even though your circulating levels of free testosterone are mid normal. Remember, your free testosterone is only "available" testosterone but is not being utilized at the moment. Your total testosterone includes the bound fraction which is what is actually being processed/utilized and your total testosterone is actually very much on the low side. So you really do have to consider BOTH numbers together to understand what is going on.

The other possibility is that your body has developed some sort of hormonal resistance. This is also common in people with HIV disease. Hormonal resistance, however, tends to be more general in nature--not just testosterone specific--when it is observed. So things to watch for as indicators would also include blood sugar/glucose levels, etc. as the body CAN also develop insulin resistance with HIV disease and long term treatment. In other words, your phsycian would also be testing and looking for the same types of things that one would expect, including trends, towards developing either type II (onset) diabetes or even type I (insulin dependent) diabetes. It is also WELL known that certain HIV drugs do seem to increase the likelihood of insulin resistance and diabetes (several of the protease inhibitors in particular).

Remember, testosterone levels, both total AND free, NEED to be maintained at levels above the middle of "normal" in HIV disease because you are not only interested in testosterone replacement but also you need to offset the extremely catabolic metabolic processes tied in with HIV disease as discussed in my previous posts. Remember this is still theory and as far as I know this theory has never been actually "proven" yet.

However, that being said, it should be noted that even before ANY treatments were available for HIV, a number of West Coast physicians, in particular, did actually notice that those HIV patients that did AAS as recreational or competitive bodybuilders did, in fact, live AT LEAST 3-5 years or more longer and fared better in the interim than those that did not do AAS. Part of this is attributed to the large increased lean body mass that recreational and competitive bodybuilders carry because of AAS and lean body mass is absolutely correlative with survival with HIV disease. Part of this is also attributed to the fact that in HIV disease AAS tend to reverse some of the negative metabolic problems associated with HIV disease AND actually boost the immune system as well--this being contrary to what is normally taught in medical schools about steroids being immunosuppressive. In actuality what medical schools are REALLY saying is that CORTICOSTEROIDS are typically immunosuppressive, which is absolutely true without any question at all. And corticosteroids are normally the ONLY steroids that are administered theraputically in the United States as a matter of practice--at least until recently. They don't teach much of anything about AAS because, until recently, AAS were rarely ever administered to patients in the United States so there was no need to discuss them. Unfortunately, most physicians, because of this, actually believe that all steroids are immunosuppressive. The truth is that in HIV, they tend to BOOST immunity. This may be due to the fact that they tend to drive the bone marrow to produce things like white blood cells, platlets, etc. which offsets the bone marrow suppressive effects of many HIV drugs. These, of course, are things that also tend to fight infection and heal the body. So this actually makes sense, since the improved "resistance" from administration of AAS to HIV patients has been clinically observed many times over. They also tend to improve overall energy levels which helps offset the natural fatigue that is common with HIV disease. This is not really surprising because of the simple fact alone that they greatly increase the red blood cell counts and therefore the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood among other things. This also counteracts the tendency towards anemia on many HIV drugs. And it is well established that people with anemia typically have fatigue issues.

Additionally, it has also been my definite personal observation that those patients that are receiving AAS for anti wasting therapy as well as significant testosterone replacement are CLEARLY doing better in terms of living with HIV AND quality of life issues as well (and I know of many cases that the patient's physician allows their blood testosterone levels to be quite high because clinically the patient is doing very well that way).

So there is some more information you can float by your physician for his consideration and for further points of discussion.
 
NorCalBdyBldr said:
Hi Alan,
You said:
"Just recieved my free Test test results. With a normal range of 7.2-23.0 I scored a OK 15.0."

This is a bit "abnormal" in that your free (unbound) testosterone levels are mid normal range. However, from what you told me during our chat, your total (bound plus unbound) testosterone levels are at the very bottom of normal (323 ng/dl with a laboratory reference range of 280-800 ng/dl) even with your Androgel "testosterone replacement" therapy (I did warn you that Androgel is fairly useless and will likely only raise your blood total testosterone levels by about 50 ng/dl). Frankly, you would typically expect that free testosterone should also be low if total is low under normal circumstances. So this brings up some questions and theories as this descrepancy is suggestive of possibly one or more things.

The first theory goes something like this. There used to be a medical theory that you had a set number of hormone (androgen) receptors and that number never changes. That would explain why AAS work much better for some guys than for others right from the start and not very well for some others. Some people CLEARLY have a higher receptor density and therefore a greater ability to process and utilize testosterone. The higher the number of receptors, i.e. the higher receptor density, that you have, the more testosterone you can process. This WAS and still IS, to a large degree, the CONVENTIONAL medical thinking.

Now there are some more recent theories circulating out there that the receptor density is not fixed but can fluctuate to some degree--still largely dependent on the individual genetics though. So guys that have continuously higher levels of testosterone circulating in their systems MAY actually increase the receptor density as a biological response within their specific genetic limitations. Once again, some guys will be more genetically "gifted" in this department as well. From personal observation and information, I strongly suspect that this second theory is correct. Namely, that the receptor density CAN vary in response to long term elevation of testosterone levels. This seems to make intuitive sense from a biological perspective as well.

So in your case, following this second theory, it is suggestive that maybe because your testosterone levels have been so low for so long, that the converse is true--namely that your receptor density is also quite low because there is no need to process very much testosterone simply because there just isn't much available over the long haul. Your body has just simply come to a new equilibrium so that you only process enough testosterone so that your circulating levels remain at mid normal and therefore equilibrium. This new equilibrium is what in biology is called "homeostasis"--the body's biological tendency to establish and maintain equilibrium or the "status quo." In bodybuilding, we also know that homeostasis can be changed to new equilibriums but it takes a lot of effort to overcome this. It is usually referred to in terms of body weight as changing "setpoints" but does apply, not surprisingly, to all kinds of other things like body composition, etc. as well. Once a new "setpoint" is established, your body will want to return to this equilibrium very strongly.

Assuming that the second theory is correct concerning receptor density and ability to process testosterone, it can be inferred that your body has lost its ability to process testosterone much above its current equilibrium (total testosterone levels permanently on the low side). Again, assuming the theory is correct, administration of testosterone to maintain your total testosterone levels above the mid normal range would be expected to force the body to adapt and increase the receptor density and therefore improve its ability to process testosterone in a more "normal" way over time. Anyway, this is just theory but it does seem to explain some things that have been observed in HIV patients and some others (non HIV). For example, you likely will be exhibiting symptoms of low testosterone (like depression, etc.) even though your circulating levels of free testosterone are mid normal. Remember, your free testosterone is only "available" testosterone but is not being utilized at the moment. Your total testosterone includes the bound fraction which is what is actually being processed/utilized and your total testosterone is actually very much on the low side. So you really do have to consider BOTH numbers together to understand what is going on.

The other possibility is that your body has developed some sort of hormonal resistance. This is also common in people with HIV disease. Hormonal resistance, however, tends to be more general in nature--not just testosterone specific--when it is observed. So things to watch for as indicators would also include blood sugar/glucose levels, etc. as the body CAN also develop insulin resistance with HIV disease and long term treatment. In other words, your phsycian would also be testing and looking for the same types of things that one would expect, including trends, towards developing either type II (onset) diabetes or even type I (insulin dependent) diabetes. It is also WELL known that certain HIV drugs do seem to increase the likelihood of insulin resistance and diabetes (several of the protease inhibitors in particular).

Remember, testosterone levels, both total AND free, NEED to be maintained at levels above the middle of "normal" in HIV disease because you are not only interested in testosterone replacement but also you need to offset the extremely catabolic metabolic processes tied in with HIV disease as discussed in my previous posts. Remember this is still theory and as far as I know this theory has never been actually "proven" yet.

However, that being said, it should be noted that even before ANY treatments were available for HIV, a number of West Coast physicians, in particular, did actually notice that those HIV patients that did AAS as recreational or competitive bodybuilders did, in fact, live AT LEAST 3-5 years or more longer and fared better in the interim than those that did not do AAS. Part of this is attributed to the large increased lean body mass that recreational and competitive bodybuilders carry because of AAS and lean body mass is absolutely correlative with survival with HIV disease. Part of this is also attributed to the fact that in HIV disease AAS tend to reverse some of the negative metabolic problems associated with HIV disease AND actually boost the immune system as well--this being contrary to what is normally taught in medical schools about steroids being immunosuppressive. In actuality what medical schools are REALLY saying is that CORTICOSTEROIDS are typically immunosuppressive, which is absolutely true without any question at all. And corticosteroids are normally the ONLY steroids that are administered theraputically in the United States as a matter of practice--at least until recently. They don't teach much of anything about AAS because, until recently, AAS were rarely ever administered to patients in the United States so there was no need to discuss them. Unfortunately, most physicians, because of this, actually believe that all steroids are immunosuppressive. The truth is that in HIV, they tend to BOOST immunity. This may be due to the fact that they tend to drive the bone marrow to produce things like white blood cells, platlets, etc. which offsets the bone marrow suppressive effects of many HIV drugs. These, of course, are things that also tend to fight infection and heal the body. So this actually makes sense, since the improved "resistance" from administration of AAS to HIV patients has been clinically observed many times over. They also tend to improve overall energy levels which helps offset the natural fatigue that is common with HIV disease. This is not really surprising because of the simple fact alone that they greatly increase the red blood cell counts and therefore the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood among other things. This also counteracts the tendency towards anemia on many HIV drugs. And it is well established that people with anemia typically have fatigue issues.

Additionally, it has also been my definite personal observation that those patients that are receiving AAS for anti wasting therapy as well as significant testosterone replacement are CLEARLY doing better in terms of living with HIV AND quality of life issues as well (and I know of many cases that the patient's physician allows their blood testosterone levels to be quite high because clinically the patient is doing very well that way).

So there is some more information you can float by your physician for his consideration and for further points of discussion.


do u have HIV, and if you dont mind me asking, how did u get it?
 
Richard85 said:
do u have HIV, and if you dont mind me asking, how did u get it?

I am HIV positive and have lived with it for 20 years. My experience with it in a "nutshell" is:

After suffering years of symptoms, I finally progressed to a full blown AIDS diagnosis in 1993 along with a terminal malignant cancer diagnosis (biopsy proven) as well. I refused conventional treatment consisting of radiation therapy followed by intensive chemotherapy in 1993 as the oncologist said that "there was a 95% chance of the cancer returning within 3 months of cessation of therapy." I was expected to live no more than 1-3 years at that point. I told him that common sense would tell you that radiation and chemotherapy would likely suppress my immune system severely enough (especially considering how suppressed it already was) to allow HIV to finish the job while they are putting me flat on my back with projectile vomiting from the radiation/chemotherapy. I also told him that I had to somehow continue to work for a living to afford the health insurance to pay for his little scheme. I further added that "this is a quality of life issue, not a longevity issue the way I see it. If I am to die in one to three years, then so be it. I just don't have to make it the worst one to three years of my life and can try to make it as good as I can under the circumstances." So I never received ANY treatment for the cancer. My cancer progression stalled out before I was on any anti retrovirals even though my viral load was at 3.18 million virons per ml of blood. That was 1995. The immunologist asked me at that point "why are you still alive?" He also theorized that I would not live to see six more months. I had been on and off monotherapy for years but had not been on any drugs for the previous year.

I picked out a two combination therapy of available drugs which was not accepted at that time including the new experimental but not yet approved drug 3tc at that time and the immunologist thought that my reasoning was very sound and it was worth a try. It worked very well for me. The next year triple therapy came into play and things improved considerably. I made many changes to my life which also helped and the cancer went into full remission in 1997.

Unfortunately, the price of anti retroviral therapy caused me to develop neuropathy (the meds can destroy the sheathing of the nerves over time essentially causing the nerves to "short circuit" slowly making you loose control eventually as well) in the feet and slightly in the hands so I do not have much feeling in the feet and have no ability to sense hot or cold or pressure there either. Another side effect of the meds was extreme insulin resistance along with apparent damage to the beta cells of the pancreas causing insulin dependence leading obviously to Frank (severe full blown insulin dependent) diabetes. There is no doubt in any of my doctors' minds that the HIV drugs caused this and they are seeing more and more of it. There are other negative side effects that I have dealt with and am currently dealing with from the medications.

This is not to be taken as a condemnation of the HIV meds. Clearly I would have been dead in 1996 if I had not put myself on a double combo followed by a triple combo about nine months later when the double was starting to fail. So I consider that every year that I have lived since 1996 is "bonus time for me" and I am happy for that. Fortunately, I have always worked out since I was a teenager and competed in sports and carried a LOT of extra lean body mass which is probably what carried me through some dark days.

Anyway, this is probably more information than you wanted but gives you some idea of where I am coming from.
 
NorCalBdyBldr said:
I am HIV positive and have lived with it for 20 years. My experience with it in a "nutshell" is:

After suffering years of symptoms, I finally progressed to a full blown AIDS diagnosis in 1993 along with a terminal malignant cancer diagnosis (biopsy proven) as well. I refused conventional treatment consisting of radiation therapy followed by intensive chemotherapy in 1993 as the oncologist said that "there was a 95% chance of the cancer returning within 3 months of cessation of therapy." I was expected to live no more than 1-3 years at that point. I told him that common sense would tell you that radiation and chemotherapy would likely suppress my immune system severely enough (especially considering how suppressed it already was) to allow HIV to finish the job while they are putting me flat on my back with projectile vomiting from the radiation/chemotherapy. I also told him that I had to somehow continue to work for a living to afford the health insurance to pay for his little scheme. I further added that "this is a quality of life issue, not a longevity issue the way I see it. If I am to die in one to three years, then so be it. I just don't have to make it the worst one to three years of my life and can try to make it as good as I can under the circumstances." So I never received ANY treatment for the cancer. My cancer progression stalled out before I was on any anti retrovirals even though my viral load was at 3.18 million virons per ml of blood. That was 1995. The immunologist asked me at that point "why are you still alive?" He also theorized that I would not live to see six more months. I had been on and off monotherapy for years but had not been on any drugs for the previous year.

I picked out a two combination therapy of available drugs which was not accepted at that time including the new experimental but not yet approved drug 3tc at that time and the immunologist thought that my reasoning was very sound and it was worth a try. It worked very well for me. The next year triple therapy came into play and things improved considerably. I made many changes to my life which also helped and the cancer went into full remission in 1997.

Unfortunately, the price of anti retroviral therapy caused me to develop neuropathy (the meds can destroy the sheathing of the nerves over time essentially causing the nerves to "short circuit" slowly making you loose control eventually as well) in the feet and slightly in the hands so I do not have much feeling in the feet and have no ability to sense hot or cold or pressure there either. Another side effect of the meds was extreme insulin resistance along with apparent damage to the beta cells of the pancreas causing insulin dependence leading obviously to Frank (severe full blown insulin dependent) diabetes. There is no doubt in any of my doctors' minds that the HIV drugs caused this and they are seeing more and more of it. There are other negative side effects that I have dealt with and am currently dealing with from the medications.

This is not to be taken as a condemnation of the HIV meds. Clearly I would have been dead in 1996 if I had not put myself on a double combo followed by a triple combo about nine months later when the double was starting to fail. So I consider that every year that I have lived since 1996 is "bonus time for me" and I am happy for that. Fortunately, I have always worked out since I was a teenager and competed in sports and carried a LOT of extra lean body mass which is probably what carried me through some dark days.

Anyway, this is probably more information than you wanted but gives you some idea of where I am coming from.

so how did you get it?
 
Richard85 said:
If you dont wanna say I understand dude

I think you miss the point of this thread completely by asking such an irrelevant question.

Alanchiras
I hope things are alright for you. I would be interested to see some follow up on your story over the last year and how things have progressed; how your therapy has changed; how your mood is?

Norcalbdybldr
You words are like a breath of fresh air.... I have a friend recently diagnosed hiv+ and the quantity of literature to attempt to distill and injest is simply overwhelming. I appreciate your opinions, and especially your experience, in dealing with HIV, and I admire your productive and pragmatic attitude to the condition. You are also, thankfully, easy to read :)

What is your current condition if I may ask? Are you still undetectable? Have you been mixing up your drug regime throughout this period at all or are you keen to stick with what is working? With regards my friend, do you believe (though I know this was not an option for you) in aggressive, early commencement of treatment, or do you believe side-effects to outweigh potential benefits from this approach? There seems to be so much contradictory information on this subject.

BTW to be at a ripped 250lbs given what you have been through in the last decade is more than impressive and an incredible achievement. I do hope my friend can be as successful, though he has been shown to be a very poor gainer of LBM in the past - even with AAS.
 
MrBigorexia
Thanks for your kind words. I also agree with your feeling about how I contracted hiv twenty years ago to be a largely irrelevant question at this point in time and for this discussion. People that know me know that I am not ashamed at all in telling how I contracted hiv but I figure, at this juncture, what is the point of obsessing over it. We all know how a person can get it and should know what to do so those that don't have it can remain that way.

I am very sorry to hear about your friend. I have no illusions about life with hiv and would not wish this on anyone. His/her life will be enormously more complicated now and knew considerations will happen that were not so worrisome before like getting and maintaining medical insurance and also getting the best possible medical insurance that is available. This means going to the higher priced PPO plans and avoiding HMO's like the plague. The American Medical Association did a survey of care provided by hiv practitioners across the nation and found that fully twenty five percent of hiv practitioners did not even meet the most basic of American Medical Association requirements for care and treatment of people with hiv. Most of the clinics and doctors that were in that category were either HMO's or doctors with less than 100 hiv positive patients so they didn't have the depth of experience needed to adequately treat people with this disease.

There is a huge amount of information out there on hiv and it will take your friend a while to try to digest it. I have mixed feelings about starting therapy vs waiting. On the one hand, it you start therapy immediately, you will preserve more of your normal immune system/function than by waiting until you are starting to fall off the cliff, so to speak, and then starting therapy. Experience has shown that there are parts of the immune system that apparently do not regenerate after being damaged too far or completely wiped out. Additionally, people that start the hiv medications with a relatively intact immune system tend to fare better in terms of getting the virus to undetectable levels and also have significantly less side effects than people that suffered a long time before starting therapy. For example, I now take 17 prescription medications--a triple combo for hiv and the rest basically counteract the side effects like high blood pressure, depression, ADD, sucky lipid profiles, diabetes (yes they are finding that the medications are clearly linked to triggering the onset of diabetes but the medical profession has absolutely no idea why and it is occurring with many more of the hiv drugs than just protease inhibitors as originally thought), excessive stomach acid and acid reflux, etc. My partner, however, started hiv medications immediately after contracting hiv about seven years ago. My partner is on only four medications and has no side effects, three of them are to treat hiv and one is for lipid control. Lipids are driven all out of whack by most of the hiv medications.

On the other hand, hiv drugs can and do cause many side effects that can also become life threatening in and of themselves. So some feel it is better to wait until you absolutely need to use them to stay alive. If your friend chooses this route, than make sure that he/she doesn't wait too long. I suppose that I still favor immediate treatment for the reasons that I stated above. I, of course, never had that option and things were quite far progressed by the time double and then triple combos came along. I have no issue with using medications when it is appropriate.

In answer to your question, my viral load is still undectable and my T-cells vary but are generally around 600-700, normal being somewhere around 1100 on average but CAN dip for very short periods of time as low as 500 and still be considered "normal." If they stay at that level for very long, then it clearly indicates that the immune system is suppressed and most of the time "normal" is certainly somewhere around 1000-1200.
I have been consistently undectable for around seven to eight years now.

My general attitude about using the drugs is to find something you can tolerate and works to reduce the viral load to undectable and stick with it as long as you can. Eventually, side effects and other health conditions may and likely will develop which necessitates the changing of your drugs. I have never dropped an hiv drug because it failed since I have been on triple combo therapy. I have had to make several changes over the last eight years due to side effects. For example, I used zerit (d4t) for eight years with no apparent problems. Then, this year neuropathy started to develop in my feet and I noticed that I am starting to drop things a LOT. I have never been clumsy before and dropping things for no apparent reason other than they just "fall out of my hands" is something entirely new for me. Apparently I have early stage neuropathy in my hands now as well. Your sense of pressure is one of the first things to go so apparently, I do not get adequate feed back for light or small objects to tell me how hard to grip since I don't register it now. Heavier objects are not a problem because I can feel significant pressure as opposed to not feeling light pressure in my hands. I used the Zerit because it is one of the most durable nucleoside analog drugs and it worked well. I had to go off it, however, as it is a really bad offender for neuropathy. Just in case you didn't know, neuropathy is the result of the destruction of the nerve cells and nerve sheathing around the nerves. When the sheathing is removed it is kind of like stripping the insulation off of wires with the result that they short out. The shorting out of nerves, for example in my feet, gives a permanent numb and unpleasant tingling "electric" feel that never goes away. It also feels like there is something between my feet and the floor when I walk even when I am not wearing shoes. A friend of mine who suffers the same problem noted that it feels kind of like walking on bubble wrap and I totally agree with this description. Since the EMG tests indicated that only a few of the nerves in my feet are firing and none are firing all that well, I have to be careful not to injure my feet as I can slice them wide open now and probably not notice. I no longer can feel heat or cold in my feet and I also don't feel pressure. Unfortunately, the damage to the nerves is apparently irreverseable so you just learn to accept it and live with it as a part of life. So this is an example of one of the kinds of toxicity the hiv drugs can have. Interestingly, hiv disease can and will invade the nervous system and the brain so it can also cause neuropathy even in the absense of any hiv drugs. Additionally, it can cause all kinds of havoc with lipids and quite a number of things before the onset of full blown AIDS. In fact, one of the very first casualties is the gastro intestinal tract--almost from the outset it starts to suffer and decline.

As for your friend being a hard gainer, there are a number of ways to approach that issue too. He/she will find, though that it becomes even harder to gain with hiv disease whether you are on meds with an undectable viral load or not. This has to do with issues surrounding the gastrointestinal tract and metabolic issues particular to HIV. Your friend, if your friend is a guy, should get testosterone levels checked as well. Eventually, testosterone production will fall off because the virus invades and damages the Leydig Cells in the testes and can also invade and damage the pituitary gland itself. A number of hiv medications have also been indicated for reducing testosterone levels to below normal. Also, I don't know if your friend uses recreational drugs or not. If he/she uses crystal or ecstasy, he/she needs to loose the habit ASAP because as hiv progresses, you eventually loose the ability to burn fat as well as loose the ability to absorb much fat through the intestines. This means that when the person uses crytal meth, etc. it will burn only lean tissue off, resulting in excelarated wasting. It will largely tend to leave all of the fat behind because of the metabolic problems in buring fat caused by hiv disease. Of course there is always the exception to the rule but for the most part, this is true from what I have seen. And true addicts will be the first to deny it.

Mostly, I am able to be the size I am because I have lifted most of my life so I always had a really good base and never carried much fat anyway. That is good because I don't seem to be able to burn fat anymore, not that I really have that much to speak of and I don't seem to get fat from eating anything I feel like. But if I eat too much fat, I get a really bad case of the sh*ts...LOL So that keeps me away from downing the Haagen Daaz--gee and just when you thought you'd get some perk out of all of this.......LOL

Anyway, your friend needs to concentrate on gaining lean mass with a vengence as it is your best insurance policy for the times when you get really knocked down. It clearly provides some buffer as the immune system consumes a huge amount of protein when you are sick and your muscles are the first place it takes it from. Remember also, that with hiv, you are permanently sick as far as the body is concerned so you already have wasting going on from the start. Even with undectable viral loads, your body is trying to clear the infection. Just because it does not show up in your blood doesn't mean that you don't have active infection going on in places that are hard if not impossible for most of the medications to get to, like the cerebral fluid around the brain and spinal fluids. So you have to fight this tendency with a continuously declining GI tract and all the other "fun stuff" that comes with it. So it is not easy and "clean living" to the greatest degree possible will help. So drop the cigarettes and cigars, drop the alcohol and drop the recreational drugs. Your liver will have enough to deal with processing all the hiv and related medications on a permanent basis.

So I hope that helps. Good luck to your friend.

PS Your friend should continue to use the AAS, particularly the injectable ones that are not liver toxic as a countermeasure to offset the wasting problems with hiv.
 
Alanchiras
I hope things are alright for you. I would be interested to see some follow up on your story over the last year and how things have progressed; how your therapy has changed; how your mood is?

An update. I have not been at the Gym nearly enought because the AIDS agency I work for is shutting down and it's a lot of work to get everything done in time. I have a lot of naseusa and fatigue but I keep putting one foot in front of another. I'm still on Testim twice a day and am getting good results from it. My private disability insurance company for the second time is trying to cut me off of my benefits and I am fighting this as hard as I can. Am considering changing my workout routine from three days a week to five to get more in with the free time I will have soon. Thanks for asking! Alan Chiras.
 
GOOD DAY TO ALL OF YOU! And now, the start of a long-delayed update. This first post will go up to December of 2005. I have been going to the gym less because of the increasing bad side effects from my meds. I was still on AZT and doing well on it, but the naseua that it caused was getting so bad that my doctor had me up to four times the normal human dose of compazine to control it. I went in for a sleep study to check on my waking up tired every day. My head was shaved and they stuck about 50 wires to my head and had me go to sleep for the night with taking my regular meds witch included Sustiva. They determined that from my brain waves, that the Sustiva was actually doing my sleep good, but I seemed to have sleep apena. The next night, they hooked me up again and put me on a CPAP machine, and I had one of the best night's sleep that I have had in a LONG while. So I was given a CPAP machine, and have had better sleep ever since. However, even though my viral load was still suppressed, my t-cell count was slowly decreasing and I had no energy for working out much. I was also developing initial signs of Parkinson's Syndrome and saw a Neuro specialist about this. After about four months, she put things together and determined that the shaking was drug caused by the hyper doses of my naseua medicine. She changed my naseua medicine to Zofran at 8MG three times a day. Zofran costs $26.00 PER PILL!!!! In November and December, my MassHealth completely picked up the costs of the Zofran at a cost of $2,340.00 per month - more than the cost of all of my anti-retrovirals COMBINED. My shaking quickly decreased and I had much less naseua and could eat more and start going to the gym again.

Then came Medicare part D - But that will be for another posting in the near future. Thanks! Alan Chiras.
 
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January 2006 - everything changed because of Medicare part D. The Zofran that helped me with nausea from AZT was all of a sudden cut back to 12 pills A MONTH! That was just not going to do, so even though I was NOT resistant to AZT, my Triple dose therapy changed to reduce the nausea so I could get along with less expensive nausea meds. I was switched from Combivir(AZT+3TC) & Sustiva - to Sustiva, Viread, & FTC. Once I was removed from AZT, something amazing happened - I got my life back!!! I was not lying on the couch ten hours a day on top of my sleep. My private disability "caught me" doing landscaping around the house and kicked me off of private disability - A $400 a month decrease just because I had a little life to me again.

I was told by many PCP's when I was diagnosed that I would not live to age 40, so prepare to die soon. Well, at 45 years of age, I did what most people around me said that I would never be able to do. In May of 2006 I graduated from college - only the second person in my extended family to do so (BTW the only other person in my family graduated from the same college as I did - Quinsigamond Community College) My dad had died by then, but my mother and what was left of my family went to the ceremony and there was some press there for the event. There was a huge graduation party for me that evening where over 100 people came to see me (I was so tired from the events of the day, I was back on the sofa to greet the guests.) I am typing this right now on the new Ti-book that I bought from the gifts I received - many thank to all.

Well, I had beat the doctors predictions by a mile and had the rest of my life ahead of me...but after 12 years of being on SSDI and retired, what was I supposed to do with the now real chance that I was going to grow into being an old man someday? My first days doing real work will be for the next chapter towards the end of 2006 - but that's for another time.

A footnote. Now that I live in the Caribbean (even though Key West is part of the US) I would love to meet any of you in person here if you come down here for vacation or more. You don't have to be a Gay male for this - I would love to meet you all and show you the more interesting side of Key West that the tourists never see. Please comment, e-mail, or ask any questions about this part that I might have missed. My next update will be very soon.

I now truly live in Paradise, and I am truly happy.

Thanks! Alan Chiras.
 
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Hi all, not sure if this is the right place to post this, I'm totally new to this whole forum thing.

Well the reason for this post is due to 2 weeks ago me discovering I’m HIV positive, it came as a big shock and is still fresh but I’ve been through some shit in my life and have decided I’m gonna waste as little time as possible being depressed about it and start battling this thing so I can enjoy the best quality of life as possible.

At 21 I was a heroin addict and crack dealer, I got arrested and sent to prison and served 18 months, it was the best thing that ever happened to me!
In prison I got myself on a rehab program and found a passion for fitness and, I went inside an 11 stone messed up kid and came out a 13 and a half stone strong minded man.

I’m 26 and have been clean ever since, have a good job, good friends and a good life. I continued to weight train, used supplements and experimented with small amounts of Deca and Dianbol to good effect, without steroids I maintain around the 14 stone mark.

Due to a new job and working lots of hours I almost completely stopped training the last six months, then about 5 weeks ago I got ill, really ill, I’d couldn’t eat, felt dizzy, muscle stiffness, I lost a lot of weight, well you now what came next.

So it looks like I’ve been infected for about five years, I feel much better now although having slight digestion problems, lots of gas and bloated, but that’s not what I’m hear to talk about.
I read a few post and one thing that’s stood out was the comment about “lean body mass being money in the bank for a rainy day”

So that’s it, I’m getting back in the gym and I fully intend to use Steroids!
Now it looks like you guys in America can get a lot from your doctors but I have no clue what can be prescribed from UK doctors.
As an ex drug addict my doctor wouldn’t even prescribe me Diazpain for a bad trapped never ever after telling me that’s what I needed, so I kind of want to hit my doctor with some facts to show I’ve done some serious research and am not just “drug seeking”

So if you’re living in the UK and have experience of HIV and steroids I would greatly appreciate your counsel.
And for the rest of you guys around the world, any general advice on living healthy and weight training with HIV would be greatly appreciated.

I hope you can help

Douggie
 
Hi all, not sure if this is the right place to post this, I'm totally new to this whole forum thing.

Well the reason for this post is due to 2 weeks ago me discovering I’m HIV positive, it came as a big shock and is still fresh but I’ve been through some shit in my life and have decided I’m gonna waste as little time as possible being depressed about it and start battling this thing so I can enjoy the best quality of life as possible.

At 21 I was a heroin addict and crack dealer, I got arrested and sent to prison and served 18 months, it was the best thing that ever happened to me!
In prison I got myself on a rehab program and found a passion for fitness and, I went inside an 11 stone messed up kid and came out a 13 and a half stone strong minded man.

I’m 26 and have been clean ever since, have a good job, good friends and a good life. I continued to weight train, used supplements and experimented with small amounts of Deca and Dianbol to good effect, without steroids I maintain around the 14 stone mark.

Due to a new job and working lots of hours I almost completely stopped training the last six months, then about 5 weeks ago I got ill, really ill, I’d couldn’t eat, felt dizzy, muscle stiffness, I lost a lot of weight, well you now what came next.

So it looks like I’ve been infected for about five years, I feel much better now although having slight digestion problems, lots of gas and bloated, but that’s not what I’m hear to talk about.
I read a few post and one thing that’s stood out was the comment about “lean body mass being money in the bank for a rainy day”

So that’s it, I’m getting back in the gym and I fully intend to use Steroids!
Now it looks like you guys in America can get a lot from your doctors but I have no clue what can be prescribed from UK doctors.
As an ex drug addict my doctor wouldn’t even prescribe me Diazpain for a bad trapped never ever after telling me that’s what I needed, so I kind of want to hit my doctor with some facts to show I’ve done some serious research and am not just “drug seeking”

So if you’re living in the UK and have experience of HIV and steroids I would greatly appreciate your counsel.
And for the rest of you guys around the world, any general advice on living healthy and weight training with HIV would be greatly appreciated.

I hope you can help

Douggie

Hey Douggie! Did you get the help and info you needed in the U.K. It should be much easied to access quality medical care for being HIV than here in The States. Could you start another thread on the HIV board here so we can answer more of your questions???

Hope all is well. Alan Chiras.
 
Thanks for all the info guys. I really, really appreciate it. NorCalBdyBldr/Alanchris - thanks man for the long write up. Full of information. I'm starting to notice as I enter my 4th year my weight has changed, but my lean body mass is certainly going down. Thankfully age/genetics has prevented my qual of life from being significantly affected. However, I know that's only going to change with time. I'm getting back into a workout cycle again and had been strong a couple of years ago. I'm looking to get back to that and increase lean body mass. Do you have advice for someone just starting it up again. My greatest concern is the stress level on my liver. I'm on Lexiva (unboosted) and Truvada. I tolerate both really well but it's clear even with being non-detect, lean mass is on the decline. And when you guys go post cycle, how do you get away with detox that doesn't clean out the meds from your system (increasing the possibility of increasing viral load/mutation)?

Any advice guys?

Thanks!!!
 
Hey: I'm new to this so hear me out. I'm 52 years old. I've been poz since late 1982. Been going to the doc since Sept 83. One thing that keeps me sane is the gym. My current Free Test level is 37.5. Normal for someone my age is in the mid 20s. Let me say that I've been working my ass of at the gym lately and with the 1ml of testosterone, 2/3ml of deca and 1 10mg of Oxandrin a day, my doc thinks my test level is too high. He's canceling my Oxandrin and I've agreed to stop the deca. I wanted to ask if my doctor is being unreasonable? I do. Is 37 too damn high and if it is what health risks am I facing?

Thanks in advance,
BrasilMinnesota
 
I don't know much about hiv but its inspiring you're taking your fitness seriously. So many healthy people let themselves become fat, sedentary slobs, so bravo to you. I wish you well. I won't even claim to know the physical and mental bridges you are crossing, but the first thing I think of when I hear aids/hiv is Magic Johnson. He's had it for what ....12 years now? The only man I've ever seen get heavier with hiv. His medical protocol would be really interesting to know..
 
Hey: I'm new to this so hear me out. I'm 52 years old. I've been poz since late 1982. Been going to the doc since Sept 83. One thing that keeps me sane is the gym. My current Free Test level is 37.5. Normal for someone my age is in the mid 20s. Let me say that I've been working my ass of at the gym lately and with the 1ml of testosterone, 2/3ml of deca and 1 10mg of Oxandrin a day, my doc thinks my test level is too high. He's canceling my Oxandrin and I've agreed to stop the deca. I wanted to ask if my doctor is being unreasonable? I do. Is 37 too damn high and if it is what health risks am I facing?

Thanks in advance,
BrasilMinnesota

Brasil, I wonder if you are taking you AAS properly - meaning in cycles and not in a steady amount as prescribed (doctors CANNOT prescribe a cycle on your script.) You need to be washed out when you get your blood labs done and time them right. Remember that low normal is NOT enough for PWA's according to studies. Go on an injection that washes out of your system faster than Deca.
Try that!

(_)> Cheers! Alan Chiras.
 
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