Three Common Gym Errors

[Synpax]

In the gym, I often see guys doing exercises wrong – typically in one of three ways – all due to working with too much weight.

The most common error is using momentum to move a weight rather than muscle.

The other common error is incomplete movements – most common with squats (legs not going to parallel) and the bench press (bar not going to the chest).

The third error is using poor form and using un-targeted auxiliary muscles to complete a movement.

These errors can lead to injury and reduce the effectiveness of the movements.

Be a man. Drop the weight and do it right.

 

[docoptimus]

great post.

that's like 99% of everyone I've ever seen lift a weight.

 

[dr.shavargo]

many people will argue the not going all the way to the chest on bench though, some say its not neccessary and just go 90 degrees, to each their own though.

 

[Synpax]

many people will argue the not going all the way to the chest on bench though, some say its not neccessary and just go 90 degrees, to each their own though.

I don't find the chest muscles get activated as much if you don't get it pretty close to the chest. Do you not sense this as well? It seems those chest muscles really do the bulk of the work getting it back up those few inches.

And, ok, 90 degrees may be the preference of some (and for some, that can get very close to the chest, too) - but this is intended as a critique of those that don't go that far.

 

[Big A]

it is not neccessary to go parallel for squats, depends what your goals are, a lot of my freinds who are rugby players at the national level do not go parallel.

 

[dr.shavargo]

I don't find the chest muscles get activated as much if you don't get it pretty close to the chest. Do you not sense this as well? It seems those chest muscles really do the bulk of the work getting it back up those few inches.

And, ok, 90 degrees may be the preference of some (and for some, that can get very close to the chest, too) - but this is intended as a critique of those that don't go that far.

yea i understand what your saying. your talking about the guys who just take it off bend their elbows a little bit then put right back on pretty much? thats dumb. and yea my 90 is pretty close to my chest anyway.. when i do squats my ass almost hits the floor when i do burnout sets but on heavy weights i go parallel or as much as i can atleast.

that reminds me, tomorrow is leg day.. shit!

 

[iansb08]

I have jus finished a fitness instructor course an the way the 'book' is teaching to do bench press is lower the bar until your elbos are inline with your shoulder blades, going past that an they say it recruits some shoulder etc. Although my personal experiance is that taking the bar about an inch above the chest seems to work the pecs alot harader.

Its down to personal preferences with what ever you do, my personal opinion is to take it down low an screw what the book says lol

 

[bblazer]

it is not neccessary to go parallel for squats, depends what your goals are, a lot of my freinds who are rugby players at the national level do not go parallel.

I'm not trying to be rude, or start something, but I think your friends may know a lot about rugby but do not know how to do a proper squat.

Not only are they not getting the complete benefit of the exercise by not going parallel, but in addition, they are creating the most shearing force possible on the knee.

B-

 

[SouthernLord]

I'm not trying to be rude, or start something, but I think your friends may know a lot about rugby but ado not know how to do a proper squat.

Not only are they not getting the complete benefit of the exercise by going parallel, but they are creating the most shearing force possible on the knee.

B-

The truth.

 

[djeclipse]

I'm not trying to be rude, or start something, but I think your friends may know a lot about rugby but do not know how to do a proper squat.

Not only are they not getting the complete benefit of the exercise by not going parallel, but in addition, they are creating the most shearing force possible on the knee.

B-

You beat me to it.

+1

 

[djeclipse]

I have jus finished a fitness instructor course an the way the 'book' is teaching to do bench press is lower the bar until your elbos are inline with your shoulder blades, going past that an they say it recruits some shoulder etc. Although my personal experiance is that taking the bar about an inch above the chest seems to work the pecs alot harader.

Its down to personal preferences with what ever you do, my personal opinion is to take it down low an screw what the book says lol

I suggest you burn that book and teach people proper form, not the shi* ty form most personal instructors try and teach.

As far as bench depth goes, a major reason for going all the way till the bar touches (not bounces) the chest is if you stop anywhere before that you are not training and getting strong throughout the entire range of motion.

The first time you have heavy weight on the bar and go below the part of the lift you haven't trained (the part you are now weak at) you will be stuck at a weak spot and that is where injury occurs.

 

[dr.shavargo]

also controlled movements! i see a lot of very rapid movements on chest excersises as well with curls where people just drop the weight and twist their body every which way to push it back up.

 

[squatpuke]

I would argue that footwork/placement is extremely critical with many/most lifts....

 

[ExtraMile]

And also jerking the weight up on back movements, especially rows

 

[Big_BK]

I suggest you burn that book and teach people proper form, not the shi* ty form most personal instructors try and teach.

As far as bench depth goes, a major reason for going all the way till the bar touches (not bounces) the chest is if you stop anywhere before that you are not training and getting strong throughout the entire range of motion.

The first time you have heavy weight on the bar and go below the part of the lift you haven't trained (the part you are now weak at) you will be stuck at a weak spot and that is where injury occurs.

Totally agree. I just got certified under NFPT and let me tell you that test is the most useless shit you will ever find on a test.

 

[SpyWizard]

The issue with most pt's that i've observed is the will do a routine that will burn out the CNS, and no need or desire for the client to return or to continue to train..

Question #1 what do you want to accomplish?? #2 what did you eat for breakfast??

 

[timtim]

there are numerous ways to properly cheat through a rep and use momentum while keeping all the stress on the targeted muscle groups without risking injury.

 

[Synpax]

Totally agree. I just got certified under NFPT and let me tell you that test is the most useless shit you will ever find on a test.

CSCS is the only one worth jack, no offense.

 

[Synpax]

there are numerous ways to properly cheat through a rep and use momentum while keeping all the stress on the targeted muscle groups without risking injury.

Even if that's true..... why?

 

[timtim]

Even if that's true..... why?

to get more reps. push pass a plateau. its a pretty cut and dry answer: theres the right way to cheat and the wrong way to cheat. im not going to debate this as an all or nothing answer. to try and say there is no place for cheat reps in bbing is ridiculous.

 

[bblazer]

to get more reps. push pass a plateau. its a pretty cut and dry answer: theres the right way to cheat and the wrong way to cheat. im not going to debate this as an all or nothing answer. to try and say there is no place for cheat reps in bbing is ridiculous.

Yup! Its called max effort. You do whatever the fuck you need to do to get that last few reps. Sometimes when I am doing seated cable rows, my whole body is a' rowing. Nothing even close to correct form, but I am getting every last drop of strength out of me I can get.

 

[timtim]

Yup! Its called max effort. You do whatever the fuck you need to do to get that last few reps. Sometimes when I am doing seated cable rows, my whole body is a' rowing. Nothing even close to correct form, but I am getting every last drop of strength out of me I can get.

thats exactly right. strict form, of course is important, does not allow for real heavy lifting. i can db hammer curl up to 100 lbs. dbs for 5 rep sets. i cheat and get the weight through the range of motion under control. its necessary and effective.

 

[Synpax]

thats exactly right. strict form, of course is important, does not allow for real heavy lifting. i can db hammer curl up to 100 lbs. dbs for 5 rep sets. i cheat and get the weight through the range of motion under control. its necessary and effective.

That's exactly the wrong attitude to have.

Pro Tip: If you aren't using proper form, you aren't really lifting.

If you want to do a certain number of reps, select an appropriate weight.

Otherwise, why not have someone else come and help you lift the weight.

 

[Jocques Straap]

Different strokes for different folks!

Someone who was training to become an athlete- the efficient, powerful, machine,

Someone who was training for general fitness - strong heart and lungs and and injury free functional body.

Someone who was training for Body building, - Maximum hypertrophy,

They are all going to train differently.

Cheat reps, absolutely due have their place when it comes to hypertrophy. Hypertrophy is all about time under tension, most notably during the eccentric phase. A well executed cheat curl would have the lifter swinging the weight up, and slowly lowering the weight down. Careful, not to lose tension and the bottom, and swing up again for the next rep. Repeat 12 times.

This doesn't mean it's appropriate to swing the weight every time, but it is another tool in our tool box.


The two reasons that cheat reps would be bad would be - an increased injury risk due to the increased intensity, and development of inaccurate motor patterns.

 

[1999TL]

Different strokes for different folks!

Someone who was training to become an athlete- the efficient, powerful, machine,

Someone who was training for general fitness - strong heart and lungs and and injury free functional body.

Someone who was training for Body building, - Maximum hypertrophy,

They are all going to train differently.

Cheat reps, absolutely due have their place when it comes to hypertrophy. Hypertrophy is all about time under tension, most notably during the eccentric phase. A well executed cheat curl would have the lifter swinging the weight up, and slowly lowering the weight down. Careful, not to lose tension and the bottom, and swing up again for the next rep. Repeat 12 times.

This doesn't mean it's appropriate to swing the weight every time, but it is another tool in our tool box.


The two reasons that cheat reps would be bad would be - an increased injury risk due to the increased intensity, and development of inaccurate motor patterns.

I was going to post this same thing, but you stated it sooner and better. Best post in this thread.

 

[bblazer]

That's exactly the wrong attitude to have.

Pro Tip: If you aren't using proper form, you aren't really lifting.

If you want to do a certain number of reps, select an appropriate weight.

Otherwise, why not have someone else come and help you lift the weight.

So if I have to hitch up my last rep of 6, 700lb DL reps, I'm not really lifting?

Pro tip: Weight up is weight up. Study time under tension or Max Effort and Dynamic Effort.

And I would be happy to have you come over and step under my bar or make one of my pulls anytime.

Mod tip: Save your sardonic and baiting comments for somewhere else or you're going on vacation. We treat everyone here with respect at all times. Period.

B-

 

[timtim]

That's exactly the wrong attitude to have.

Pro Tip: If you aren't using proper form, you aren't really lifting.

If you want to do a certain number of reps, select an appropriate weight.

Otherwise, why not have someone else come and help you lift the weight.

what exactly are you a pro at? if you are such a pro, you should be very aware that controlled cheating is required to lift big weights.

honestly, you sound like you dont lift big. you sound like a fitness person. thats cool. thats your interest. please dont try and tell people who can control cheat big weight that they arent working. all my joints are in alignment and my movements are far from erratic. as a pro, shouldnt you be aware of the right way to cheat safely?

 

[djeclipse]

to get more reps. push pass a plateau. its a pretty cut and dry answer: theres the right way to cheat and the wrong way to cheat. im not going to debate this as an all or nothing answer. to try and say there is no place for cheat reps in bbing is ridiculous.

I think the term "cheat" is the problem. When most think of a "cheat rep" they think of someone that loads up the bar way beyond his capability, throws form out the window and is an injury waiting to happen. Or at least that is what I think of when I hear the word "cheat".

I think "form bending" or something similar could better describe what you guys are talking about.

As the weight's get heavy and max effort is being used, form is a little compromised, even great strength coaches will say this. It's a matter of "bending" your form enough to get the weight moving and keep it moving, but not so much that it will cause injury, or it no longer looks like the movement you are supposed to be doing.

90deg rows or Pendlay rows are a great example. The movement itself allows for movement of the upper half of the body, (up from, parallel) as the weight's get heavy. it is up to the lifter to determine weather his movement is no longer a row 90deg to the ground, or not. If he is almost standing up, or at 45deg by the top of the lift, it is time to reset the lift, drop the weight to a point where better form can be used.

bblazer, mentioned a hitch when deadlifting to get a Pr rep, or when doing a max, just to keep the bar moving. Things like that are "form bending", rather than actual cheating.

 

[timtim]

I think the term "cheat" is the problem. When most think of a "cheat rep" they think of someone that loads up the bar way beyond his capability, throws form out the window and is an injury waiting to happen. Or at least that is what I think of when I hear the word "cheat".

I think "form bending" or something similar could better describe what you guys are talking about.

As the weight's get heavy and max effort is being used, form is a little compromised, even great strength coaches will say this. It's a matter of "bending" your form enough to get the weight moving and keep it moving, but not so much that it will cause injury, or it no longer looks like the movement you are supposed to be doing.

90deg rows or Pendlay rows are a great example. The movement itself allows for movement of the upper half of the body, (up from, parallel) as the weight's get heavy. it is up to the lifter to determine weather his movement is no longer a row 90deg to the ground, or not. If he is almost standing up, or at 45deg by the top of the lift, t is time to reset the lift, drip the weight to a point where better form can be used.

bblazer, mentioned a hitch when deadlifting to get a Pr rep, or when doing a max, just to keep the bar moving. Things like that are "form bending", rather than actual cheating.

very good explanation.

 

[cobracock1979]

Yeah,

Thats why I owten swing on my last curl rep and use a push press rather than the military press. Gotta leave it all in the gym

 

[lockdownd7]

My thoughts on the subject:

If your goal is hypertrophy, why would you waste your energy "cheating" if your "cheating" requires technical changes that take the emphasis off the target muscle group?

If you want to cheat, you'd be far better off doing assisted reps with a spotter. Same idea, better execution.

For athletes, there is no benefit to cheating, as activation of the proper muscles is just too damn important to risk messing with.

For PLer's I can see the benefit, at times, but you wouldn't want to do it every workout. Again, although the only thing that matters in a comp is that you get the weight up, you still need to have very solid fundamental form.

 

[djeclipse]

My thoughts on the subject:

If your goal is hypertrophy, why would you waste your energy "cheating" if your "cheating" requires technical changes that take the emphasis off the target muscle group?

If you want to cheat, you'd be far better off doing assisted reps with a spotter. Same idea, better execution.

For athletes, there is no benefit to cheating, as activation of the proper muscles is just too damn important to risk messing with.

For PLer's I can see the benefit, at times, but you wouldn't want to do it every workout. Again, although the only thing that matters in a comp is that you get the weight up, you still need to have very solid fundamental form.

You are a walking contradiction.

It's ok for power lifters, but not anyone else?

Power lifters don't experience any hypertrophy? Last I checked power lifters have a shit load of muscle, that is why a lot of them end up cutting and going into body building, the muscle and size is already there from power lifting.

Please enlighten us... lol

 

[djeclipse]

Yeah,

Thats why I owten swing on my last curl rep and use a push press rather than the military press. Gotta leave it all in the gym

Push press is not cheating, it's an actual lift. It allows you to use more weight than the standing military press and the body adapts to the greater load you put on it.

 

[lockdownd7]

You are a walking contradiction.

It's ok for power lifters, but not anyone else?

Power lifters don't experience any hypertrophy? Last I checked power lifters have a shit load of muscle, that is why a lot of them end up cutting and going into body building, the muscle and size is already there from power lifting.

Please enlighten us... lol

I suggest you stop looking for arguments at every corner. I'm a very reasonable person and have a lot of patience, but most people don't. Anyway....it's really very simple....a PLer's goal is to lift the maximum weight possible. I know you know this, so why are you trying to be difficult? Nowhere did I say that PLer's don't experience muscle growth.

<RANT>In the future I ask that you refrain from wasting everyone's time with posts like this that do nothing to advance the conversation. If you disagree with something I say, that's fine. That's what a discussion board is for. It's not for going around in circles saying the same things 100 times. Let's grow up and have more meaningful conversation so we can actually learn something.</RANT>

 

[bblazer]

Everyone take a sip of Verve and chill out.

I swear its like everyone is stacking cheque drops with halo lately.

B-

 

[lockdownd7]

Everyone take a sip of Verve and chill out.

I swear its like everyone is stacking cheque drops with halo lately.

B-

I'm not mad, just disappointed.

If I take the time to post a reply, it feels like a waste when people misinterpret it and try to start arguments that aren't even based off of the contents of what I actually said.

 

[timtim]

for a bber cheating is essential. its obvious the people who disagree arent very well experienced in how to cheat properly and when. its also not a cheat where you change the exercise. you can build a ton of momentum by keeping a cadence with the rep speed and using the lower body (during upper body lifts with dbs or bbs) to load the momentum and use it as a controlled springboard. dense muscle isnt built in isolation.

 

[bblazer]

for a bber cheating is essential. its obvious the people who disagree arent very well experienced in how to cheat properly and when. its also not a cheat where you change the exercise. you can build a ton of momentum by keeping a cadence with the rep speed and using the lower body (during upper body lifts with dbs or bbs) to load the momentum and use it as a controlled springboard. dense muscle isnt built in isolation.

Further to your point, a properly preformed PL bench press does use the compression of the lats as a springboard for the pressing movement.

Is that a cheat?

B-

 

[djeclipse]

I suggest you stop looking for arguments at every corner. I'm a very reasonable person and have a lot of patience, but most people don't. Anyway....it's really very simple....a PLer's goal is to lift the maximum weight possible. I know you know this, so why are you trying to be difficult? Nowhere did I say that PLer's don't experience muscle growth.

<RANT>In the future I ask that you refrain from wasting everyone's time with posts like this that do nothing to advance the conversation. If you disagree with something I say, that's fine. That's what a discussion board is for. It's not for going around in circles saying the same things 100 times. Let's grow up and have more meaningful conversation so we can actually learn something.</RANT>

Cry me a river, though you claim to be a "patient man" your reply tells us otherwise.

You said this is a discussion board, yet you blow up on anyone that doesn't agree with you. Not very patient at all.

Your post was one big contradiction, the goal of lifting is fiber recruitment, doesn't mater what you are lifting for. The body responds to the load you put on it, greater the load, the more the body has to adapt. Hypertrophy, athletics, or power lifting, it doesn't matter, the greater the load the better the body will respond to it. "Cheat reps" benefit each of your examples equally, as they allow you to put more load on the body. That is why I said you contradicted yourself.

Which lifter is going to gain strength faster, get more hypertrophy, or get better at his sport. One that does very light weight, but doesn't increase the weight due to fear of losing absolute perfect form? Or the lifter that learn proper form, knows what it feels like and adds weight to the bar, putting more load on the body while keeping form as close to perfect as he can with said weight?

I think it's funny that you get so angered over something as dismal as a "cheat rep" lol

 

[djeclipse]

Further to your point, a properly preformed PL bench press does use the compression of the lats as a springboard for the pressing movement.

Is that a cheat?

B-

Not to mention the lift starts with leg drive from the feet on the floor.

 

[bblazer]

No more ad hominem crap or this thread gets closed.

B-

 

[djeclipse]

No more ad hominem crap or this thread gets closed.

B-

hey, none of that lawyer talk, this is a lifting board. Pick up big weight, put down... you expect us to know big words like that, lol

 

[OneBreath]

Can someone check my curl form? I don't think i'm hitting my bicep peak.

 

[djeclipse]

Can someone check my curl form? I don't think i'm hitting my bicep peak.

Nice, up the weight and use more swing, then you'll be HArD CoRE!

 

[lockdownd7]

Further to your point, a properly preformed PL bench press does use the compression of the lats as a springboard for the pressing movement.

Is that a cheat?

B-

"Cheat" is a pretty unclear word, isn't it? A lot depends on what context you're looking at things from. The above example could possibly be considered cheating to a BBer, but not to a PLer.

Cry me a river, though you claim to be a "patient man" your reply tells us otherwise.

You said this is a discussion board, yet you blow up on anyone that doesn't agree with you. Not very patient at all.

Do you bother reading what you quote? Or is that too much trouble? Because everything you've said makes it sound like you're just kinda skimming through before banging out pretentious replies on your keyboard....

Your post was one big contradiction, the goal of lifting is fiber recruitment, doesn't mater what you are lifting for. The body responds to the load you put on it, greater the load, the more the body has to adapt. Hypertrophy, athletics, or power lifting, it doesn't matter, the greater the load the better the body will respond to it. "Cheat reps" benefit each of your examples equally, as they allow you to put more load on the body. That is why I said you contradicted yourself.

Which lifter is going to gain strength faster, get more hypertrophy, or get better at his sport. One that does very light weight, but doesn't increase the weight due to fear of losing absolute perfect form? Or the lifter that learn proper form, knows what it feels like and adds weight to the bar, putting more load on the body while keeping form as close to perfect as he can with said weight?

I think it's funny that you get so angered over something as dismal as a "cheat rep" lol

You obviously don't get it. So (for you) I'm going to step back and take things slow....

Fiber recruitment is not the goal of lifting weights. The goal of lifting weights is to improve whatever attribute we're looking to improve. Let's take the three cases that have been mentioned so far in this thread.

Case 1

You wanna get big. Obviously, this means hypertrophy of the desired (which is usually all) muscle groups. For lifting weights to be beneficial in helping achieve this goal, tension must be directed at the muscles that we are trying to hypertrophy with a given exercise. You don't need to cheat to grow, all you need to do is direct greater levels of tension on the appropriate musculature....

Case 2

You wanna be a better athlete. This means speed, vj, quickness, agility, etc (yes, I am restricting to the most common sports). In the training of these qualities, the muscular system is absolutely secondary to the nervous system. The nervous system controls muscles, not the other way around. The stuff you should be doing in the weight room is very focused, and is only a small part of the equation. A huge part of being an athlete is moving properly. If you don't know what you're doing it's very easy to screw things up with too much lifting. Cheat reps have zero place here.....

Case 3

You wanna be an elite PLer. Ultimately the strength of the muscles involved in the lift are going to determine success/failure. Having said that, when you're going for an all-out PR, you're going to do whatever the hell it takes to get the weight up, and if that means loosening form a little, so be it. However, most of the time, you're going to want to stay focused on actually strengthening the appropriate muscles.

 

[djeclipse]

"Cheat" is a pretty unclear word, isn't it? A lot depends on what context you're looking at things from. The above example could possibly be considered cheating to a BBer, but not to a PLer.



Do you bother reading what you quote? Or is that too much trouble? Because everything you've said makes it sound like you're just kinda skimming through before banging out pretentious replies on your keyboard....



You obviously don't get it. So (for you) I'm going to step back and take things slow....

Fiber recruitment is not the goal of lifting weights. The goal of lifting weights is to improve whatever attribute we're looking to improve. Let's take the three cases that have been mentioned so far in this thread.

Case 1

You wanna get big. Obviously, this means hypertrophy of the desired (which is usually all) muscle groups. For lifting weights to be beneficial in helping achieve this goal, tension must be directed at the muscles that we are trying to hypertrophy with a given exercise. You don't need to cheat to grow, all you need to do is direct greater levels of tension on the appropriate musculature....

Cheat reps allow more load on the muscle = more gains. If you want to get big you focus on core lifts, adding weight to the bar as often as you can. Isolation is a waste of time and energy better spent on core lifts.

Case 2

You wanna be a better athlete. This means speed, vj, quickness, agility, etc (yes, I am restricting to the most common sports). In the training of these qualities, the muscular system is absolutely secondary to the nervous system. The nervous system controls muscles, not the other way around. The stuff you should be doing in the weight room is very focused, and is only a small part of the equation. A huge part of being an athlete is moving properly. If you don't know what you're doing it's very easy to screw things up with too much lifting. Cheat reps have zero place here.....

We're talking about weight training here, same principles apply, more load = better gains.

Case 3

You wanna be an elite PLer. Ultimately the strength of the muscles involved in the lift are going to determine success/failure. Having said that, when you're going for an all-out PR, you're going to do whatever the hell it takes to get the weight up, and if that means loosening form a little, so be it. However, most of the time, you're going to want to stay focused on actually strengthening the appropriate muscles.

Once again, more load = more gains.

You keep wasting time with your perfect form and very minimal weight and those that want optimal gains will add more weight at the cost of not so perfect form.

Thanks again.

 

[bblazer]

Hugs all around.

B-

 

[lockdownd7]

Cheat reps allow more load on the muscle = more gains.



We're talking about weight training here, same principles apply, more load = better gains.



Once again, more load = more gains.

You keep wasting time with your perfect form and very minimal weight and those that want optimal gains will add more weight at the cost of not so perfect form.

Thanks again.

It's clear you don't want to (or more likely, can't) discuss the subject intelligently. My bad for assuming that you were better than that.....

Oh wait, you're always right and have nothing you can learn. Why are you here then? If you know everything, what's the point?

Mods, lock this before this "djeclipse" character makes me soil myself with laughter.

 

[djeclipse]

It's clear you don't want to (or more likely, can't) discuss the subject intelligently. My bad for assuming that you were better than that.....

Oh wait, you're always right and have nothing you can learn. Why are you here then? If you know everything, what's the point?

Mods, lock this before this "djeclipse" character makes me soil myself with laughter.

Now you're simply projecting.

 

[bblazer]

Nobody seems to get the hint. Thread closed and the vacations are on me.

B-