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Intermittent Fasting discussion thread!!
- Thread starter RickRock13
- Start date
I definitely love intermittent fasting while on cycle. They are a match made in heaven in my opinion. Steroids are obviously great for recomposition, and IF is the best diet I've personally used for recomp. Pretty much every cycle I've ran for the last couple years has been with an IF diet, resulting in adding mass while dropping bodyfat.
My typical approach is to shift my calories to the high side (still with high and low days but increases to both) for the first half of the cycle for more mass gain, then I typically go the low side on my high and low days for the last half of the cycle to really speed up the fat loss. It has worked great for me every time.
I always prefer brown rice over white, just because most of my carbs are generally complex carbs, but I will throw in simple carbs like white rice from time to time, especially on workout days.
dangerboy857
New member
Rickrock, do you typically fast 1 or 2 days a week on cycle? What do you eat your fasting days?
What you are referring to is the alternate day fasting (ADF) version of intermittent fasting. What I do is the 16/8 "Lean Gains" version of IF geared more for bodybuilders where you fast 16 hours every day with an 8 hour feeding window.
I've covered in this thread many times, but the basic premise I follow is I typically follow a recomp approach with a higher calorie and higher carb approach on workout days with a lower cal/lower carb approach on cardio/rest days. It's usually around 20% over and 20% under maintenance for each of those.
I will change that from time to time a bit and shift it more one way or the other depending on if I want to go more for a cut or mass gain.
I'm sure a lot of you see the new Wolverine movie has come out, with Hugh Jackman in amazing condition. Guess what diet he followed to prep him for his role? Yep.....intermittent fasting
Hugh Jackman talks 'Wolverine' diet, intermittent fasting - National Celebrity Fitness and Health | Examiner.com
Hugh Jackman talks 'Wolverine' diet, intermittent fasting - National Celebrity Fitness and Health | Examiner.com
George_Costanza
New member
Way to go Wolverine!
I just realized that over the last year of IF, I have mis-measured my BCAA dosing. I was taking the capsules and ingesting 2g, instead of 10g. Not sure what kind of impact it had, although on one cut, I did lose a lot of strength.
Now I'll start taking the proper, 10g dose when training fasted. Hope it has an impact.
Don't make the same mistake I did.
I just realized that over the last year of IF, I have mis-measured my BCAA dosing. I was taking the capsules and ingesting 2g, instead of 10g. Not sure what kind of impact it had, although on one cut, I did lose a lot of strength.
Now I'll start taking the proper, 10g dose when training fasted. Hope it has an impact.
Don't make the same mistake I did.
It honestly shouldn't have made a huge difference. Obviously you would have less anabolism from less protein synthesis, but the impact on performance, strength, and body composition should be minimal. 10g every couple hours of the fast is ideal, but not as crucial as many think it is. Don't put a lot of stock into the BCAAs
What you eat during your anabolic feeding window is what makes or breaks you
George_Costanza
New member
You're probably right. Thanks for giving me piece of mind.
I think my biggest loss of muscle during my previous cut was more due to dropping my carbs on training day to 250g, instead of the previous volume of 300g. I find that going below the 300g level is insufficient for muscle maintenance and led to muscle catabolism.
I think my biggest loss of muscle during my previous cut was more due to dropping my carbs on training day to 250g, instead of the previous volume of 300g. I find that going below the 300g level is insufficient for muscle maintenance and led to muscle catabolism.
bakemeacookie
New member
I love IF. There would be no other way for me to drop calories big time for cutting w/o going crazy.
It has become a great diet for cutting that seems to be more lenient on your food choices while keeping a steady rate of fat loss.
This helps you maintain your sanity more and stay on target....where a lot of other diets you will have to be more strict with food choice (especially CKD, paleo, and others). Even though ypu must still hit your desired macros IF is more about nutrient timing than anything. I would have something like burgers or pizza twice per week all the way through my contest prep with IF
bakemeacookie
New member
Yep! I also add in benefiber throughout the fasting period to eliminate all hunger. IF makes it so easy to eat whatever level of calories I want. I enjoy my cheat day though i find i don't pig out as much as I thought I would. If anything, i get full fast.
My clients love it and losing weight has never been easier. Martin Breckham should get a nobel prize.
stevemead08
New member
Finished prepping my meals for tomorrow. Tomorrow is day 1 of the better lifestyle
Come back after a week or two and let us know what you think of it bro
stevemead08
New member
Seems I still have some questions in order to get the full impact of this diet.
Me being 270 and 29%bf, my maintenance cals seem far to high.
Can I scale back to about 2500/workout and say 1500/cardio days.
I think I should be about
Protein 250 daily
Carbs 150/lift day and around 50 to 75/ cardio days
I'm pretty big and strong already, my main goal is fat loss.
I have already lost 40lbs since July 5th on another diet but I want something more like a lifestyle change.
Fats as low as possible.
Me being 270 and 29%bf, my maintenance cals seem far to high.
Can I scale back to about 2500/workout and say 1500/cardio days.
I think I should be about
Protein 250 daily
Carbs 150/lift day and around 50 to 75/ cardio days
I'm pretty big and strong already, my main goal is fat loss.
I have already lost 40lbs since July 5th on another diet but I want something more like a lifestyle change.
Fats as low as possible.
bakemeacookie
New member
Not sure who you're asking. lol
Fats are good. Good fats curb hunger, so i'd choose moderate level of fat.
1500 vs 2500? Are you really burning 1000 calories at the gym? Most people way overestimate their calories burned at the gym. That's like olympian level.
If you really want to measure your daily maint levels - get a body bugg or body media fit. It'll be pretty accurate and get you a good starting point.
If you eat 2k/day i think you're doing good. 1500 is even better if you can handle it. Just give it time and keep taking pics every week - ignore the scale. IF really helps out here.
stevemead08
New member
Thanks. I'm really asking anybody willing to help me out. I just came off of a 4 week juice fast. Any calorie level is fine with me. I can adapt pretty fast. If I had my nutrition mapped out I would not be asking for help. I will do whatever you guys suggest.
If you are that big, I would strongly suggest not going that low on cals. As you lose weight you will have to drop cals lower and lower over the weeks to keep the fast loss continuing. However, you don't want to dip too much too soon. Its not recommended to go more than 1k cals under maintenance each day average. That comes out to 2 lbs per week fat loss. Any more than that and you will risk big losses in muscle and strength, and probably get a crashed metabolism. If that happens you are screwed because fat loss slows to a snails pace or even stops all together...
Remember slow and steady adjustments are where its at. Slow and steady wins the race
I use the Armour39 chest strap that links to my iPhone using an app. When I wear it for a 1 hour HIIT cardio session and 1 hour of weights I've burned up to 1600 calories which takes into account my weight, age, heart rate and recovery times, etc.
Here's a pic if you're plat
View attachment 112033
I do my workouts in the morning fasted so I start my days typically 1600 calories in the hole on top of my 3500 or so for maintenance.
stevemead08
New member
If you are that big, I would strongly suggest not going that low on cals. As you lose weight you will have to drop cals lower and lower over the weeks to keep the fast loss continuing. However, you don't want to dip too much too soon. Its not recommended to go more than 1k cals under maintenance each day average. That comes out to 2 lbs per week fat loss. Any more than that and you will risk big losses in muscle and strength, and probably get a crashed metabolism. If that happens you are screwed because fat loss slows to a snails pace or even stops all together...
Remember slow and steady adjustments are where its at. Slow and steady wins the race
Where would you recommend I start? Workout days and cardio days?cals, protein, and carbs?
There are too many factors that determine what your intake should be for me to give you an accurate number. Thats something only you would know. You need to figure out your maintenance first. Read through this thread and it should give you an idea how to get it started and you can always adjust from there.
20-30% under maintenance on cardio days and 10% over on workout days is a start, since you really need to get your weight down.
stevemead08
New member
Alright thanks. Ill check back in a week and update.
The amount of information you have and the willingness to help out is tremendous.
Pat on the back to you sir.
The amount of information you have and the willingness to help out is tremendous.
Pat on the back to you sir.
stevemead08
New member
Ordered some n2slin and n2flame also.
Those will help a little. N2slin is something I use religiously
stevemead08
New member
Recommend something else? Researching a SARMs cycle too.
Stevemead, use what you have and keep your diet straight and keep doing what you're doing. There's no magic bullet that can fix you bro.
Let me tell you that all of this can be achieved without any SARMs, or supplements. There is a womanin my office that used to weigh 230lbs. She hit her breaking point 4 years ago and decided to get in shape. She changed her diet, started working out, takes almost no supplements. Fast forward 4years she now weighs 145lbs and competed in her first bodybuilding show in York PA and won her division. She is now getting ready for her next show in October and sent me a pic of her obliques today...
My point is it can be done with a lot of hard work and determination, don't keep buying things to motivate you bro it sounds like you've already done a great job to get this far.
stevemead08
New member
Your right. I started IF today and already workout like a crazy man. Ill start a log as not to clog up Ricks thread here. Thanks guys.
Yes, the captain is right. The only thing you really need right now is the diet and training. Those things alone will get you there. Once you get to a much leaner state, is when you can start considering other options if you choose to. When your bodyfat is high, it doesn't take much to lose at first. Diet change and exercise will make drastic results alone
bakemeacookie
New member
Um, I may take that with a grain of salt. I've never found an accurate device that measures calories burned in the gym.
eg: An olympian at high intensity only burns 9cal/min. Hardcore Weight Training, combined with the 'after burn' affect burns around 500-700 calories.
I'll google but last time I read studies - max for hardcore olympian was like 9cal/min. For average person on treadmill they only get like 300-400 calories per hour - and that's hardcore running!
bottomline, if you're figuring in this 1600 calories in the equation - and not losing weight, you're over-estimating. Lemme see what I can find online.
Idobehigh
New member
I wear a polar ft7 heart rate watch and my average workout is around 800 calories burned... I wouldn't say take it with a grain of salt you would be surprised how accurate they are
Im making great progress accounting for calories burned and my daily intake.
bakemeacookie
New member
okay:
1) a marathon runner burns 2,500 calories for 2 hours of running : The Olympic Sports that Burn the Most (and Least) Calories – Spry
2) well trained athletes burn around 5-12 calories per minute for high intensity exercises. That doesn't even assume they can keep it up for say an hour :
How Many Calories Do Olympic Athletes Burn? | kodjoworkout.com
so saying that 2 hours of high intensity + weights = 1600 that means you are BURNING 13 CALORIES PER MINUTE. That's even more than olympians running at full blast for 60 minutes. So yeah, i may wanna rethink your device.
another study from cal state univeristy. a full on run (10 minute mile) burns 11 calories per minute. Even if you kept that high intensity for an hour (and u don't drop dead!) you burn around 600 calories. Don't forget high intensity works off glucose not free fatty acids - so when you get "low", the aerobic system turns to muscle protein. Chances of losing muscle increases big time during high intensity & cardio (ever wonder why long distance runners are skinny with no muscle?).
So your weight lifting winds up becoming building back the muscle you're losing.
Either way, If you're "burning 1600 calories" in 2 hours - you are on the level of a spartan!
source: http://www.runnersworld.com/weight-...g-how-many-calories-will-you-burn?page=single
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22446673
btw: one more thing - this is also not taking into affect the effects of rising cortisol does on your metabolic slowdown of cutting. When you are cutting (and less <20% bf) your body is also fighting you back - high stress and intensity winds up working against you. I suggest taking it a bit 'easy' and fat loss will increase even more. If you hit a 'stall' - you'll know why.
1) a marathon runner burns 2,500 calories for 2 hours of running : The Olympic Sports that Burn the Most (and Least) Calories – Spry
2) well trained athletes burn around 5-12 calories per minute for high intensity exercises. That doesn't even assume they can keep it up for say an hour :
How Many Calories Do Olympic Athletes Burn? | kodjoworkout.com
so saying that 2 hours of high intensity + weights = 1600 that means you are BURNING 13 CALORIES PER MINUTE. That's even more than olympians running at full blast for 60 minutes. So yeah, i may wanna rethink your device.
another study from cal state univeristy. a full on run (10 minute mile) burns 11 calories per minute. Even if you kept that high intensity for an hour (and u don't drop dead!) you burn around 600 calories. Don't forget high intensity works off glucose not free fatty acids - so when you get "low", the aerobic system turns to muscle protein. Chances of losing muscle increases big time during high intensity & cardio (ever wonder why long distance runners are skinny with no muscle?).
So your weight lifting winds up becoming building back the muscle you're losing.
Either way, If you're "burning 1600 calories" in 2 hours - you are on the level of a spartan!
source: http://www.runnersworld.com/weight-...g-how-many-calories-will-you-burn?page=single
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22446673
btw: one more thing - this is also not taking into affect the effects of rising cortisol does on your metabolic slowdown of cutting. When you are cutting (and less <20% bf) your body is also fighting you back - high stress and intensity winds up working against you. I suggest taking it a bit 'easy' and fat loss will increase even more. If you hit a 'stall' - you'll know why.
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bakemeacookie
New member
So you're saying I should be an Olympian?
lol! I think i'm jealous
here's a good article on cortisol & high intensity :
Why Big Caloric Deficits and Lots of Activity Can Hurt Fat Loss | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
lol! I think i'm jealous
here's a good article on cortisol & high intensity :
Why Big Caloric Deficits and Lots of Activity Can Hurt Fat Loss | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
I'm just going off of what the chest strap is telling me. I try to keep my heart rate in the 130 zone while lifting too. Some days I feel like a Spartan and I've come a long way from where I used to be.
stevemead08
New member
Ordered the chest strap. Should be here today. Getting all my cals cleanly is a little harder than I expected within my feeding window.
It gets easier over time bud. Your body will adjust. If you stick to doing IF you will will be amazed in a few months at the amount of food you can put down in one sitting. It's nearly impossible for me to get full anymore it seems...lol
stevemead08
New member
I have been logging my macros in myfitnesspal for 7 days now. It looks like this.
7 day average-
2200 cals daily.
Protien-52% 230g daily.
Fat-30%
Carbs-28%
Most of my carbs are from veggies and some brown/multi grain rice after workout.
So far I have gained 3 lbs.
Main goal is weightloss.
Should I let it ride for another week and see what happens?
6'2
270
29% bf.
Eating window is 7 hours
Cardio-bike 3 days
Heavy lifting 3 day
Resting on Sunday.
7 day average-
2200 cals daily.
Protien-52% 230g daily.
Fat-30%
Carbs-28%
Most of my carbs are from veggies and some brown/multi grain rice after workout.
So far I have gained 3 lbs.
Main goal is weightloss.
Should I let it ride for another week and see what happens?
6'2
270
29% bf.
Eating window is 7 hours
Cardio-bike 3 days
Heavy lifting 3 day
Resting on Sunday.
That is common for the first week or two on IF, since your body is adapting to the change in good intake and it also tends to cause more fluid fluctuation at first when starting.
You can gauge better how things will go in another 10 days or so.
stevemead08
New member
Awesome. The battle continues. Thanks bro!
Well, it really depends on your goal on what you want. Since you have so many workout days, I would go to a lower surplus of maybe +10% on those days and go for a bigger defecit on your rest days at around -30%. That would still be right around recomp range.
I thought I would share this article I put together, published at Muscle Research, and written by yours truly!
https://muscle-research.com/content.php?329-Intermittent-Fasting-Fact-and-Fiction
https://muscle-research.com/content.php?329-Intermittent-Fasting-Fact-and-Fiction
I want to put on quality mass from the cycle and make the most out of it, but keep fat gains down so when I go to cut its not massive amounts of fat to get off.
Ive been doing 3 days on 1 off.
Would a recomp method be the best way to go for lean gains on cycle or something else?? Will I actually be 'burning fat' on my off days from basically calorie/carb cycling
Ive been doing 3 days on 1 off.
Would a recomp method be the best way to go for lean gains on cycle or something else?? Will I actually be 'burning fat' on my off days from basically calorie/carb cycling
Recomp works perfect, and actually even better on cycle. If recomp is your goal, it should work well. It all depends on your goal, and then adjust your diet to reflect that....with or without anabolics.
Yes, you have the basic premise of how the diet is setup and the way I have structured it to eat and train for your goal that day. You would basically be at a surplus on workout days with the higher carb amounts with the shift towards building that day. Your off days would be at a defecit and lower carb amounts to shift the focus towards burning fat that day.
Carb cycling is in a sense what we are doing, but it is more about eating and training for the goal that day. In my opinion, the best way to get this "best of both worlds (recomp) is to alternate the workout days and rest/cardio days, but you can still accomplish the same types of results if you shift your caloric ranges correctly.
For example, if you have more workout days than rest days....like say 5 workout days and 2 rest, then obviously you would want a much smaller surplus on workout days and a much bigger defecit on your off days to still accomplish this recomp. To recomp successfully you should add up all of your caloric totals for each day of the week and divide it by 7 to see your average daily caloric intake. You should be in the ballpark of maintenance overall. If not you should shift it more one way or the other to accommodate that.
Thanks a lot for the support my brother. I truly appreciate it, and it means a lot coming from you!
As always, I'm always adjusting things, tweaking and manipulating as I go to find what works best. Lately I've only been doing fasts on my rest/cardio days, where I have been doing a typical 6 meal per day plan on workout days with no fasted resistance training. I've shifted my focus more to holding bodyfat the same while adding lean mass. It seems to be working very well for me so far. I'm not losing fat, but not gaining it either while getting stronger. I will have a better idea if I need to make more changes in another month or so, but I'm enjoying this setup so far.
Thanks for stopping by, my friend!
Shrine1
The Resistance
RR this is awesome read! So by fasted break you mean, this your first meal upon rising. In other words, "a break from your fast"?
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First meal of the day is the fast breaker. Its usually several hours after rising at around noon. That is what starts the 8 hour feeding window, and at 8 PM you start another 16HR fast. The times can be changed, but keep the 16/8
Shrine1
The Resistance
I did a complete layout over at Evo. I ended answering my own question, but maybe you checkout my layout bro. I read this thread for like a hour last night and pretty fired up about it.
http://www.evolutionary.org/forums/showthread.php?240-Intermittent-Fasting
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MaxxReps
New member
I think I am going to give IF a shot. My normal diet is already similar to IF in that I have a couple of very small meals in the day, then train, then have the majority of my calories after training. I am upset at myself that for my first cycle I followed the advice of fellow gym rats to eat, eat, eat, and have gained much more fat than I am comfortable carrying and now have to diet it away.
I have a couple of questions for those who follow IF.
1) Cardio - I do daily cardio to keep my heart strong and athletic performance high. I do fasted cardio in the morning but by noon I am starving. Do you do fasted cardio? If so doesn't it make you hungry? I like to eat so my fat loss strategy involves eating at maintenance and getting my deficit from cardio so when I am really motivated (like now) its an hour of cardio per day - half in the morning fasted, and half after weight training on training days, or before supper on non training days.
2) Do you do weight training fasted? I have a hard time working out when hungry so I usually eat a small meal JUST before weight training.
3) Do you use any different strategy when on cycle trying to build muscle?
I'm excited to give this a shot. I think it will suit me and my lifestyle.
I have a couple of questions for those who follow IF.
1) Cardio - I do daily cardio to keep my heart strong and athletic performance high. I do fasted cardio in the morning but by noon I am starving. Do you do fasted cardio? If so doesn't it make you hungry? I like to eat so my fat loss strategy involves eating at maintenance and getting my deficit from cardio so when I am really motivated (like now) its an hour of cardio per day - half in the morning fasted, and half after weight training on training days, or before supper on non training days.
2) Do you do weight training fasted? I have a hard time working out when hungry so I usually eat a small meal JUST before weight training.
3) Do you use any different strategy when on cycle trying to build muscle?
I'm excited to give this a shot. I think it will suit me and my lifestyle.
IF is very versatile and can be changed and adapted for personal preference in many ways without sacrificing results. You just have to give it enough time and play around with it a bit to see what works best for you.
In response to your questions:
1) I do all of my cardio fasted, and I don't think it makes me any hungrier at all. After fasting for a week or two your body will really adapt to your eating patterns and you will not get hungry much until a short time before breaking fast. Stimulants work wonders during the fast for appetite suppression also.
2) weight training can be fasted or not. Doesn't really matter. Any thought that your performance will be sacrificed by training fasted is purely psychological and there is plenty of science to support it.
If you do resistance training fasted, just make sure to consume BCAAs before and after training for protein synthesis.
3) everything that works off cycle, works on cycle....just better
So no, I don't change anything when going on cycle. I may do a slight shift of my caloric intake higher (maybe 500 cals per day more) at the beginning of the cycle due to the increased androgens and nutrient partitioning but I don't change my training or diet structure at all. I still eat and train for my goal on cycle and off pretty much the same
MaxxReps
New member
Thank you for the response. I am excited to give it a shot.
Further detail, if you don't mind - how many calories do you consume on training vs non training days? How many days do you train? Do you always do cardio on non training days? What type of cardio do you do?
If I am understanding you correctly you always eat slightly above maintenance on training days, and slightly below on non training days - while on cycle your training days may be a bit higher - like 500 cals or so.. Is this close?
Thanks for taking the time - personal experience from someone who has done it is invaluable.
Further detail, if you don't mind - how many calories do you consume on training vs non training days? How many days do you train? Do you always do cardio on non training days? What type of cardio do you do?
If I am understanding you correctly you always eat slightly above maintenance on training days, and slightly below on non training days - while on cycle your training days may be a bit higher - like 500 cals or so.. Is this close?
Thanks for taking the time - personal experience from someone who has done it is invaluable.
Everyone is different on their caloric needs, but since you asked...
My maintenance cals are around 2700-2800 right now, so
On workout days I will go 3200-3500 most of the time up to about 4k on cycle
On non workout days I will get 2200-2500 and up to maintenance on cycle
For recomp I typically take a +20%/-20% approach and when going for lean mass I will go +30%/-10%. When I'm really looking to concentrate on shredding up I will put my cals at +10%/-30%.
That should give you a general idea
Shrine1
The Resistance
IF is very versatile and can be changed and adapted for personal preference in many ways without sacrificing results. You just have to give it enough time and play around with it a bit to see what works best for you.
In response to your questions:
1) I do all of my cardio fasted, and I don't think it makes me any hungrier at all. After fasting for a week or two your body will really adapt to your eating patterns and you will not get hungry much until a short time before breaking fast. Stimulants work wonders during the fast for appetite suppression also.
2) weight training can be fasted or not. Doesn't really matter. Any thought that your performance will be sacrificed by training fasted is purely psychological and there is plenty of science to support it.
If you do resistance training fasted, just make sure to consume BCAAs before and after training for protein synthesis.
3) everything that works off cycle, works on cycle....just better
So no, I don't change anything when going on cycle. I may do a slight shift of my caloric intake higher (maybe 500 cals per day more) at the beginning of the cycle due to the increased androgens and nutrient partitioning but I don't change my training or diet structure at all. I still eat and train for my goal on cycle and off pretty much the same
So do you do cardio one day and weight training the next? I was under the impression you are doing weight training 4 days a week and cardio 3 days a week.
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I lift 3 days a week doing high intensity, low volume training (DC training) on M,W,F
I do cardio on Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, and Sunday (sometimes this is an off day)
So basically I alternate high and low days for the most part. This works excellent for the carb cycling aspect and glycogen replenishment following my cardio days in which I can deplete pretty good a lot of times. I don't like having days in a row in a defecit or a surplus. The alternating days helps that balance that keeps the LBM coming and the fat loss continuing....albeit a slow process. But that is the glory of "true" recomposition.
Nothing is ever set in stone, and I can change things as I see fit based on results, performance, and what I see in the mirror every day. I may do a couple weeks at the higher calorie points, then switch back to the lower side for a couple weeks once is start noticing myself smoothing out any. Sometimes I will throw in a much higher carb load (refeed) on a workout day if I notice myself getting too depleted to replenish the glycogen stores also. It's all adaptation and adjusting things as I go, but what I illustrated above is what I do 90% of the time
Shrine1
The Resistance
Thanks man. This is really great information and very helpfull. Im still trying to dial in my diet. I usually dont count calories or get immersed in to details. Its mostly how I feel but that's a thought prosess I need to change because their is more science involved then how I feel. I still have a ton to learn but again very informative.
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MaxxReps
New member
Day 3 of IF so far. Its so very close to what I was already doing when trying to lose fat. I am at about a thousand calorie deficit mostly from cardio and by the time its time to eat am hungry enough to eat my running shoes. I imagine with less of a deficit it will be a bit easier.
I have to admit though, I am not sure I would want to do this while trying to gain maximal lean mass. I think it would just feel wrong to be unfed for such long periods of time. Right or wrong, I always took the feeling of being good and sore as an indication that I should be eating to give my body the nutrition it requires to rebuild and grow.
I have to admit though, I am not sure I would want to do this while trying to gain maximal lean mass. I think it would just feel wrong to be unfed for such long periods of time. Right or wrong, I always took the feeling of being good and sore as an indication that I should be eating to give my body the nutrition it requires to rebuild and grow.
You can grow easily on IF when going for mass. Feeling like you need food 24/7 to grow is purely psychological.
As a matter of fact, the insulin release and anabolic response you get breaking fast is nothing that can be duplicated with a traditional diet. Anything lost by not being fed a few hours, is more than made up as soon as you start eating again.
Of course you have to hit your desired macros, as is with any diet
MaxxReps
New member
With all due respect ... (seriously)
I agree. I've never felt the need to graze all day long.
May I ask, what do you weigh?
I agree. I've never felt the need to graze all day long.
It is not a few hours, its 2/3 of each day.
May I ask, what do you weigh?
Yes, it is just a few hours beyond a normal diet. Everyone fasts while sleeping, so you can throw that out the window.
187 lbs @ 6% body fat right now and 5'9"
(Curious why this is even relevant to the discussion)
No problem bro. I will be the first to tell you, if strictly as much mass as possible is what you want, IF is probably not for you. Obviously eating as much as you can at all hours is going to give the most benefit, though you will have to accept a reasonable amount of fat gain in the process. But if that was your goal you wouldn't be here I'm guessing.
This isnt anything fancy or magical, but IF has been the best possible diet I can find for staying lean while adding mass, recomping, and cutting with no loss of strength or muscle. I'm just hear to share my experiences with it, and people can make up their own minds whether its something they want to implement into their diet plan or not.
Sometimes i may go off of IF for part of a week or more during the fall/winter months to really concentrate on the mass gains. If I soften up I can always throw IF back in and clean up within a couple weeks or so. You have to be willing to always change and adapt to make your body change
My current focus has been shifted to mass building for the most part, and right now I'm only fasting 4 days per week. My workout days I've been consuming 6 meals like most bodybuilders. So far, so good. No fat gain but no fat loss either and weight/strength has slowly been increasing. There's nothing set in stone, and its all about finding out what works best. I expirement all the time and I'm getting very close to finding the perfect formula for ME.
E
Evan Tipps
Guest
Are bcaas really necesary to train in a fasted state? Ive been doing fasted training (I hate working out with food in my stomach makes me feel weighed down). Ive came close to trying bcaas but I just havnt yet
For resistance training, I think some form of protein preworkout and post workout is ideal for protein synthesis due to the muscle breakdown factor. With fasted training BCAAs fill that void. If you are eating right after the workout, then they are less important and not nearly as necessary.
So the real answer is they are beneficial for fasted training but not required necessarily.
George_Costanza
New member
I've been doing IF for about a year now and I decided to take a couple of weeks off the gym to settle a nagging lower back injury. In the process I also decided to take a diet break and throw in some breakfast. You mentioned that you throw in breakfast when you are bulking and I think it might be a good idea to stoke the metabolism fire. I base this on the fact that when I first started IF, I initially saw accelerated fat-loss before it eventually slowed.
Do you believe there is some validity to this observation and do you struggle at all with hunger when resuming IF?
Thanks,
Ken
Do you believe there is some validity to this observation and do you struggle at all with hunger when resuming IF?
Thanks,
Ken
I don't believe it has any effect on metabolism by staying on IF too long. What does have a negative effect on metabolism is continuous caloric deficit over a long period of time, or even extreme defecits for short periods of time.
That is why I highly recommend refeeds as often as necessary to keep the metabolism elevated and fat loss continuing. Refeeds will raise leptin back to normal. When leptin is low, fat loss slows. Refeeds also optimize grehlin (the hunger hormone), so hunger issues get controlled better when trying to cut.
I personally never have much issue with hunger, as I do refeed about 3 days per week. The only time I had an issue with it, was when I was about 2-3 weeks from my contest. Hunger was out of control and my refeeds were twice per week. I could have used another refeed in there, but it was crunch time and I had a deadline. Typically, the leaner you are the more you need to refeed, so as you can imagine at 4.6% body fat, decreasing my refeeds per week really took a toll on hunger. Those over 10% probably should only refeed every 7-10 days or so
George_Costanza
New member
When you say "refeeds" is this independent of raising your carb and calorie intake on training days?
I generally take a "diet break" every 4-6 weeks when my fat loss stalls, for about 10-14 days (ala Lyle McDonald). However, even with this I have not been able to get any lower than about 8% bodyfat. Recently my strength dropped by about 20%, so I think it's time to bulk again before I shrink into nothing.
Always appreciate your input RickRock13.
I generally take a "diet break" every 4-6 weeks when my fat loss stalls, for about 10-14 days (ala Lyle McDonald). However, even with this I have not been able to get any lower than about 8% bodyfat. Recently my strength dropped by about 20%, so I think it's time to bulk again before I shrink into nothing.
Always appreciate your input RickRock13.
No, basically my workout days are the refeeds as of right now. I've been at around 400g carbs on those days with all my other days being at 150-200g.
In your case, it sounds like you have experienced a little bit of metabolic damage if it isn't hormone or thyroid related. 10-14 days and refeeds isn't enough for you if that's the case.
You would have to raise your metabolic capacity up to a good range before seeing good fat loss again. The ideal way to do that is to slowly add in calories (mostly carbs) each week for several weeks if its minimally damaged or it could take as long as 3-4 months or more depending on how damaged your metabolism is.
So, you are right about needing to go into a surplus, but the best way to do that is slow increases for damage control reasons
For more info on metabolic damage, check out some of Layne Norton's biolayne YouTube videos on the subject. He has a lot of great info on it.
George_Costanza
New member
Wow, I never thought of that. Looks like I have some homework to do tonight via youtube. I love that stuff.
The long road to rippedness continues. I always think I have it all figured out and then I get thrown a curve ball.
Thanks!
No problem bro. There's no certainty that metabolic damage is your issue, but its my guess based on what you have told me. Especially since you are experiencing a severe loss of strength while not getting any leaner. That tells me you were in a pretty big overall defecit for long enough to reduce your metabolism to a snails pace in an attempt to get leaner. Its pretty common for it to happen to competitors precontest that diet too extreme, do too much cardio, diet too long, etc...
I can take a bit to come back from, but its worth it. Just take the time to concentrate on LBM gain, and make small controlled increases each week without putting yourself into a defecit for now. You will probably be amazed at how quick you can lose fat once you get metabolic capacity optimized.
Layne has natural female clients eating 400g of carbs per day or more with little to no cardio in contest prep, leaning out every week after getting their metabolic capacity so high. Its funny hearing about these people trying to keep up with their metabolism and force feeding just a few weeks from a show. Its nuts.
George_Costanza
New member
It's possible, I've been dieting a lot and even thrown in many full fasting days here and there. No problem though, I have learned to be patient over the years. I plan to increase lean muscle mass over the next few months anyway and it will be nice adding carbs gradually. Hell, I'm 6'7", if a lean fitness model is consuming 400g of carbs a day, I should be consuming about 500g with my active lifestyle.
I probably only have about 5-10 lbs to lose before my lower abs emerge, but at that weight (I'm 200lbs now), I would probably blow away in the wind, think Christian Bale in "The Machinist." :0
I watched Lanye Norton's "Metabolic Damage" yesterday and a few others. I can't wait to watch them all. Finally, a PHD body builder/trainer who knows his shit and cares.
Guys, check out this nice little article I made on IF over at Muscle Research
Intermittent Fasting:Fact and Fiction
https://www.muscle-research.com/content.php?329-Intermittent-Fasting-Fact-and-Fiction
Intermittent Fasting:Fact and Fiction
https://www.muscle-research.com/content.php?329-Intermittent-Fasting-Fact-and-Fiction
Even though I don't see it being a problem, it's not something I would recommend during that time. Priority during nursing should be the child's health and nutrition. Diet is very crucial to ensuring the child gets everything they need if they are nursing because the mother provides 100% of their intake. There is a lot of development that happens during that time, and it's not a time that I feel doing any type of extreme on dieting should be done. Eating enough of a balanced diet with the right vitamins and minerals should be the main focus.
Shrine1
The Resistance
Thanks bro... we figured. She seen me get pretty lean with this and you know how females are about their weight.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using EliteFitness
Here is another article I put together over at Muscle Research that can help and benefit a lot of people
Avoiding Metabolic Damage
Avoiding Metabolic Damage
George_Costanza
New member
Thanks for posting those articles RickRock13.
It's been about a month since my potential metabolic damage diagnosis and I've been slowly increasing my carbs on rest days and refeed days. My strength has increased slightly but my weight has not increased at all, even after a couple of binges added into the mix, such as two Canadian thanksgiving feedings. I'm really surprised that my weight is unchanged.
Diet:
Rest Day Carbs: 30g
Refeed Day Carbs: 300g
Now:
Rest Day Carbs: 150g and increasing
Refeed Day Carbs: 350 - 400g and increasing
It's been about a month since my potential metabolic damage diagnosis and I've been slowly increasing my carbs on rest days and refeed days. My strength has increased slightly but my weight has not increased at all, even after a couple of binges added into the mix, such as two Canadian thanksgiving feedings. I'm really surprised that my weight is unchanged.
Diet:
Rest Day Carbs: 30g
Refeed Day Carbs: 300g
Now:
Rest Day Carbs: 150g and increasing
Refeed Day Carbs: 350 - 400g and increasing
That's awesome news man. You are doing exactly as you should to build it back up. It takes time, but eventually your metabolic capacity will be pretty outstanding and you will be able to strip fat much easier than you've been accustomed to. Thanks for keeping me updated bro
George_Costanza
New member
That's awesome news man. You are doing exactly as you should to build it back up. It takes time, but eventually your metabolic capacity will be pretty outstanding and you will be able to strip fat much easier than you've been accustomed to. Thanks for keeping me updated bro
Thank you!
Hey Rick,
I have a question or two about IF. I apologize in advance if my question has already been covered. I've read numerous pages, but not all 49.
I work out in the AM (because of my schedule, that wont change anytime soon). I like everything I've read thus far regarding IF, but it definitely seems most fitting when doing fasted AM cardio and then weightlifting in the PM.
I find that workouts are more effective when I have some fuel in my system. So, I usually eat a small meal before (30-45 min) my AM workout. After my AM workout, I consume a protein/creatine/leucine/glutamine drink and then begin making a large breakfast which I consume about 30 minutes after my drink. I usually eat this post workout meal around 8am.
So my problem, and what I'm struggling with, is that I feel that my morning program is effective. I've been working out 15+ years and I've tried various schedules for my workout and diet. Over the past few years, I feel like I've got it where I want it..... Until reading a lot of the current IF information.
So, here is my question(s):
With my schedule, should I not fast in the morning (continuing on my schedule) and simply begin the fast sometime after lunch?
Or, does the fast need to be during the first part of the day?
Is IF beneficial enough that you would suggest I fast in the AM, in turn, working out heavy on an empty stomach and then abandoning my post workout shake and meal to continue the fast?
Your thoughts
I have a question or two about IF. I apologize in advance if my question has already been covered. I've read numerous pages, but not all 49.
I work out in the AM (because of my schedule, that wont change anytime soon). I like everything I've read thus far regarding IF, but it definitely seems most fitting when doing fasted AM cardio and then weightlifting in the PM.
I find that workouts are more effective when I have some fuel in my system. So, I usually eat a small meal before (30-45 min) my AM workout. After my AM workout, I consume a protein/creatine/leucine/glutamine drink and then begin making a large breakfast which I consume about 30 minutes after my drink. I usually eat this post workout meal around 8am.
So my problem, and what I'm struggling with, is that I feel that my morning program is effective. I've been working out 15+ years and I've tried various schedules for my workout and diet. Over the past few years, I feel like I've got it where I want it..... Until reading a lot of the current IF information.
So, here is my question(s):
With my schedule, should I not fast in the morning (continuing on my schedule) and simply begin the fast sometime after lunch?
Or, does the fast need to be during the first part of the day?
Is IF beneficial enough that you would suggest I fast in the AM, in turn, working out heavy on an empty stomach and then abandoning my post workout shake and meal to continue the fast?
Your thoughts
Last edited:
One of the many benefits of IF is that it is so versatile. You can shift and move that feeding window to any part of the day that is convenient for you, as well as the fast. If you want to break fast in the morning and eat through the early afternoon, and start your fast afterwards that is fine if that works better for you. Most people just like having evening meals, so it's easier for them to fast the mornings.
Your training can be fasted or not, and it really won't make much difference if you are still maintaining the 16/8 protocol. The fast followed by the huge anabolic response you get when you start eating is what IF is all about, so that is the core principal that needs addressed.
So, in short, do whatever works best for you and fits into your lifestyle. Jut adapt it to your life the best you can
dangerboy857
New member
Rickrock, I keep the 16, but vary the 8. Sometimes it's as much 10 or more (heavy lifting day), sometimes it's as little as 6 or less (cardio day). Do you have an opinion one way or another on this?
That's fine bro. Adapt it to your liking. Obviously the longer fasts yield more fat loss benefits, but nothing is set in stone. I do a lot of the same right now, and have only done 16 hour fasts on non workout days, and have been eating up to 12 hours on my workout days since my focus has shifted to muscle gain. Its good to experiment and find a formula that works best for you.
dangerboy857
New member
Rickrock, are there any foods that might be exempt from the fasting rule? I'm thinking zero cal or near zero with no glycemic impact like say celery, pickles/cucumbers, iceberg lettuce. Just curious.
Yeh, anything with minimal to no caloric content will be fine in moderation during the fast. BCAAs for example, still have a low caloric value, but obviously have a small impact on insulin.
If you want to put a splash of creamer in your coffee go for it. Just keep in mind that all of these things impact insulin to some degree, even if its small. The less you impact insulin during the fast, the more you can hurt fat loss...and the greater benefit in anabolism you will get when breaking fast.
Just be sensible during the fast and try to keep from consuming any minute calories any more than you have to.
BoogeyManSRB
New member
Hi guys
Im
5 10
178
11%Body Fat
I keep protein high, carbs and fats low
Using that I managed to lose 20lbs, I seem to be stuck here now, Im starting to see more veins and some abs,
Using intermittent fasting I would like to lower my body fat as much as possible in 6 weeks and after that I will start bulking...
My fasting would look something like this
6 30 AM: Wake up and take a protein shake(120kcal 24gprotein), 4PM - 10PM Eating Phase, 10PM - 4PM Fasting phase
I would like to hear a suggestion and advice from you guys
Im
5 10
178
11%Body Fat
I keep protein high, carbs and fats low
Using that I managed to lose 20lbs, I seem to be stuck here now, Im starting to see more veins and some abs,
Using intermittent fasting I would like to lower my body fat as much as possible in 6 weeks and after that I will start bulking...
My fasting would look something like this
6 30 AM: Wake up and take a protein shake(120kcal 24gprotein), 4PM - 10PM Eating Phase, 10PM - 4PM Fasting phase
I would like to hear a suggestion and advice from you guys
dangerboy857
New member
Hi guys
Im
5 10
178
11%Body Fat
I keep protein high, carbs and fats low
Using that I managed to lose 20lbs, I seem to be stuck here now, Im starting to see more veins and some abs,
Using intermittent fasting I would like to lower my body fat as much as possible in 6 weeks and after that I will start bulking...
My fasting would look something like this
6 30 AM: Wake up and take a protein shake(120kcal 24gprotein), 4PM - 10PM Eating Phase, 10PM - 4PM Fasting phase
I would like to hear a suggestion and advice from you guys
Taking a protein shake isn't fasting.
BoogeyManSRB
New member
I know but is there something else i can drink in the morning because i get headache if i dont take anything...
^These are all great options.
You must only drink little to no calorie drinks during the fast to prevent spiking insulin and breaking the fast
BoogeyManSRB
New member
How about BCAA's ?
BCAAs have a minimal effect on insulin levels, and are fine during the fast
BoogeyManSRB
New member
Thank you, i have some glutamine and would it be ok too? It has 0 kcal, sorry for bothering
Yes, it's fine as with most other bulk powders like Creatine, BCAA, LCLT, beta alanine, etc...
BoogeyManSRB
New member
Thank you
Hope I'm not too late to this!
I've just started IF/Keto. Keto isn't a big deal for me, because it's kind of half normal. Do you think they would work well together?
Also, I know your biggest meal is meant to be after your workout but when I'm at work I can't stop eating! So I spaced my eating window at 10am-5pm, so this doesn't happen and I'm fuller at work. I also don't get hungry after workouts, so this is working well... However... Do you think it's ok that I don't exercise until after 5pm? And eat before hand? I'm still fasting from 5pm-10am the next day, but I eat before I workout. Hope that makes sense?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've just started IF/Keto. Keto isn't a big deal for me, because it's kind of half normal. Do you think they would work well together?
Also, I know your biggest meal is meant to be after your workout but when I'm at work I can't stop eating! So I spaced my eating window at 10am-5pm, so this doesn't happen and I'm fuller at work. I also don't get hungry after workouts, so this is working well... However... Do you think it's ok that I don't exercise until after 5pm? And eat before hand? I'm still fasting from 5pm-10am the next day, but I eat before I workout. Hope that makes sense?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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