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Detroit officially declares Bankruptcy

-SD-

EXT ELITE ROB
Chairman Member
Detroit files for bankruptcy - Jul. 18, 2013

NEW YORK (CNNMoney)
Detroit filed for bankruptcy Thursday afternoon, becoming the nation's largest public sector bankruptcy. The move could slash pension benefits to city workers and retirees, and leave bond holders with only pennies on the dollar.
The bankruptcy was filed by Emergency Manager Kevyn Orr and approved by Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder. Snyder said the financial condition of the city left him no choice, and that Detroit could not meet its obligation to either its citizens or its creditors.

"We have a great city, but a city going down hill for the last 60 years," he said at an evening press conference. He said 38% of the city's budget is being spent on "legacy costs" such as pensions and debt service, which cuts into spending on city services. He said police take almost an hour to respond to calls, compared to a national average of 11 minutes, and that 40% of street lights in the city are turned off.
"That's unacceptable," he said.
But public employee unions are sure to fight the move, charging that the city did not negotiate in good faith and should not be allowed to walk away from obligations made to employees and retirees.
The Detroit Fire Fighters Association said it was "very disappointed" with the bankruptcy filing.
"We are working with other Detroit employees to form a unified coalition to address the financial concerns of Detroit," the group said. "Detroit's Fire Fighters will continue to protect and serve during this difficult time, regardless of the economic challenges."
Orr already halted payments on about $2 billion in debt last month, saying the city needed to preserve its dwindling supply of cash. The city faces total liabilities of about $18 billion. Orr's reorganization plan calls for cutting $11.5 billion in debt down to $2 billion. That would mean that investors and retirees would receive an average of just 17% of what they are owed. Specific plans for the cuts are unknown at this time.

No major municipal bankruptcy has ever resulted in cuts to retiree benefits, said Michael Sweet, a California bankruptcy attorney.
"It's relatively easy to blow off a creditor. It's much harder when it's people who are the fabric of your community," he said. "You need a police force, you need a fire department. You're saying [to them] you're not worth what you were previously promised."
Sweet said that case law on whether pensions can be cut this way is very limited, and it could take years for a court fight over such cuts to work its way to the U.S. Supreme Court. Given the poor state of funding for many public sector pension funds nationwide, "it's a big enough question, that (the Supreme Court) is where it likely will have to go," he said.
Related: Detroit halts debt payments, plans pension cuts
When employees of a bankrupt business lose their promised pensions, the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. steps in and provides a minimal level of benefits. But that federal agency doesn't back pensions in the public sector.
Retirees and city employees say they can't accept cuts in their pension benefits.
"How am I supposed to live without my pension?" said David Sole, 65, after a protest in Detroit last month. Sole retired from the city's water department in January after 22 years.
Investors say the bankruptcy will make it more difficult for cities and towns everywhere to raise the money they need to build bridges, schools and other infrastructure. It will also hurt municipal bonds held by individual investors. There are more than $1 trillion worth of bonds at risk, said Peter Hayes, head of municipal bonds at BlackRock. He said there will be a ripple effect nationwide.

Orr said that the city needs to cut debt to restore services and lower costs, such as taxes and insurance, which he says have chased businesses and residents out of the city.
Detroit's population has fallen 28% since 2000. The unemployment rate, while down from a peak of 27.8% in the summer of 2009 -- when General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and Chrysler Group were going through their own bankruptcies -- is still at 16.3%, nearly twice Michigan's statewide average.
While the auto industry has enjoyed a resurgence with strong car sales and profits, most of the industry's Michigan plants lay outside of city limits.


Whos been running detroit government?
 

Socialism is great until you run out of other peoples' money.

Detroit worked exactly like it should. It was the automotive capital of the world and it decided to blow its seemingly insurmountable lead.

It's a microcosm for what we're doing across the country. America has turned its back on capitalism -- the principle that got us here in the first place. But don't fret -- the wealthy will be just fine. Notice how the stock market is fully recovered, yet the real unemployment rate is spectacularly high?
 
Socialism is great until you run out of other peoples' money.

Detroit worked exactly like it should. It was the automotive capital of the world and it decided to blow its seemingly insurmountable lead.

It's a microcosm for what we're doing across the country. America has turned its back on capitalism -- the principle that got us here in the first place. But don't fret -- the wealthy will be just fine. Notice how the stock market is fully recovered, yet the real unemployment rate is spectacularly high?

If jobs are so important I cant understand why the unemployment debate has vanished given the U6 unemployment rate or factoring in the labor force participation rate.
 
Good. Let's just nuke the whole stupid city now.

This. Also lol @ plunkeys response.

Detroit has been shit for decades. The idea of a one-industry town, basically run by and for the auto industry, was a huge problem for Detroit both politically and economically. The auto industry did all it could to remain in control of the city to the detriment of its growth, planning, infrastructure and social problems.

Theyve been talking for a few years about urban planning and getting a light rail in there. Would be cool to see them move forward with those concepts if the slate is indeed wiped clean. Not banking on that happening though.
 
This. Also lol @ plunkeys response.

Detroit has been shit for decades. The idea of a one-industry town, basically run by and for the auto industry, was a huge problem for Detroit both politically and economically. The auto industry did all it could to remain in control of the city to the detriment of its growth, planning, infrastructure and social problems.

Theyve been talking for a few years about urban planning and getting a light rail in there. Would be cool to see them move forward with those concepts if the slate is indeed wiped clean. Not banking on that happening though.

Yeah, a little urban planning and some light rail will fix them right up. I bet those crack houses will convert to job training centers overnight if they had access to less expensive transportation.

Thank you. I needed that kind of visceral laugh this evening.
 
Yeah, a little urban planning and some light rail will fix them right up. I bet those crack houses will convert to job training centers overnight if they had access to less expensive transportation.

Thank you. I needed that kind of visceral laugh this evening.

Ah, so you believe changes should have an impact overnight?

Makes me wonder why Rick Snyder enacting a corporate flat tax and making Michigan a right to work state didnt save Detroit then. :confused: I mean, it's been like a year. Should be more than enough time for a turnaround.
 
Ah, so you believe changes should have an impact overnight?

Makes me wonder why Rick Snyder enacting a corporate flat tax and making Michigan a right to work state didnt save Detroit then. :confused: I mean, it's been like a year. Should be more than enough time for a turnaround.

Yeah, let's ferret-out decades of union/Democrat/liberal thinking with a right-to-work law.

It was far too late for Detroit. I'd just like to take this opportunity to compliment the writers of "Robocop" for foreseeing the future of Detroit so well.
 
Yeah, let's ferret-out decades of union/Democrat/liberal thinking with a right-to-work law.

It was far too late for Detroit. I'd just like to take this opportunity to compliment the writers of "Robocop" for foreseeing the future of Detroit so well.

Omnicorp knows what its doing.

My point was that there's nothing wrong with focusing on urban renewal within Detroit. Wont be a quick fix, but if the city can start with a pseudo-clean slate it can transform itself (much like parts of Southern California did following WWII) into a much more business and residential friendly environment than it has been over the past 20 years.

Plus, bankruptcy will absolve the city of the most of the union tied liabilities.
 
Damn they really did call that one rob

They did, but in all fairness it isn't that hard to foresee.

The writers of RoboCop were capitalists. To a evil, money-grubbing, mean-spirited, conservatives capitalism isn't that hard to figure out.
 
Omnicorp knows what its doing.

My point was that there's nothing wrong with focusing on urban renewal within Detroit. Wont be a quick fix, but if the city can start with a pseudo-clean slate it can transform itself (much like parts of Southern California did following WWII) into a much more business and residential friendly environment than it has been over the past 20 years.

Plus, bankruptcy will absolve the city of the most of the union tied liabilities.

Does that include Dem control of the city government for the next half century or no?
 
Omnicorp knows what its doing.

My point was that there's nothing wrong with focusing on urban renewal within Detroit. Wont be a quick fix, but if the city can start with a pseudo-clean slate it can transform itself (much like parts of Southern California did following WWII) into a much more business and residential friendly environment than it has been over the past 20 years.

Plus, bankruptcy will absolve the city of the most of the union tied liabilities.

My urban renewal program would be:

Nothing: You don't get a single dollar of subsidy, grant or similar hand-out.

But... if you are willing to establish a business here with real employees and real assets (yeah, we'd need a test for that), then you can operate here at a flat 10% federal income tax rate and no state tax for 10 years.

Then around 2023, they can buy the rest of us and implement that program nation-wide.
 
My urban renewal program would be:

Nothing: You don't get a single dollar of subsidy, grant or similar hand-out.

But... if you are willing to establish a business here with real employees and real assets (yeah, we'd need a test for that), then you can operate here at a flat 10% federal income tax rate and no state tax for 10 years.

Then around 2023, they can buy the rest of us and implement that program nation-wide.

so we would need the government to test for real assets and employees.

Shit its not gonna work
 
so we would need the government to test for real assets and employees.

Shit its not gonna work

Oh I agree it's a flaw in the plan. We'd have to rely on some ridiculous test like the IRS uses for substantial presence.

For example, we can't put a computer in Dublin Ireland that automatically accepts our US-based purchase orders from customers, marks them up 25% and sends them back to our real business in the US (with the profits remaining in Ireland).

But do not fret. Corporate America has always stayed ahead of the IRS rules on substantial presence -- which is part of what is driving all the white collar jobs overseas these days.
 
Oh I agree it's a flaw in the plan. We'd have to rely on some ridiculous test like the IRS uses for substantial presence.

For example, we can't put a computer in Dublin Ireland that automatically accepts our US-based purchase orders from customers, marks them up 25% and sends them back to our real business in the US (with the profits remaining in Ireland).

But do not fret. Corporate America has always stayed ahead of the IRS rules on substantial presence -- which is part of what is driving all the white collar jobs overseas these days.

Im trying to figure out a way that could all apply to selling bathtub gear.
 
Im trying to figure out a way that could all apply to selling bathtub gear.

Use bitcoins and don't record the transactions in the first place.

No money changes hands = No taxes = All good.
 
Thank you. I needed that kind of visceral laugh this evening.

careful not to laugh too much or you'll upset the delicate balance lunesta requires of you. Talk about a shit life though that you get a "visceral laugh" over the demise of a major American city which could destroy livelihoods. The people that will get the worst of it are the ones that had the least to do with the cities financial mismanagement. I'm starting to laugh now too cause I see how fucking hysterical that concept is. Nothing funnier in life than people getting their lives destroyed. Real talk. :rolleyes:
 
whats bitcoins

you don't even want to know. It's definitely an interesting concept, a digital currency the fed doesn't control. But the way the money is actually created reads like a bad acid trip. To create one bitcoin is basically a computer, or multiple computers strung together, working on an insanely complicated mathematical algorithm. It would take one computer like a year or more to make "one" bitcoin. So you then send the result somewhere and they verify what your computer produced is infact a bitcoin and away you go. If it sounds potentially "real" shady it's cause you're brain is still halfway functioning.
 
you don't even want to know. It's definitely an interesting concept, a digital currency the fed doesn't control. But the way the money is actually created reads like a bad acid trip. To create one bitcoin is basically a computer, or multiple computers strung together, working on an insanely complicated mathematical algorithm. It would take one computer like a year or more to make "one" bitcoin. So you then send the result somewhere and they verify what your computer produced is infact a bitcoin and away you go. If it sounds potentially "real" shady it's cause you're brain is still halfway functioning.

But, it's great for doing illegal shit online. Something as small as buying a cyberlocker, or some joose, or as big as buying a few hundered kilo's of coke.
 
careful not to laugh too much or you'll upset the delicate balance lunesta requires of you. Talk about a shit life though that you get a "visceral laugh" over the demise of a major American city which could destroy livelihoods. The people that will get the worst of it are the ones that had the least to do with the cities financial mismanagement. I'm starting to laugh now too cause I see how fucking hysterical that concept is. Nothing funnier in life than people getting their lives destroyed. Real talk. :rolleyes:

You should feel some ownership in detroit's failure. Retards who think like you brought it down.
 
Yeah, what's the value of a bitcoin this second, wait a couple millisecs it'll change.


That happens when a currency isn't backed by anything remotely legit. Simple supply and demand driven by black market drug dealers. If the dollar collapses though because of the fed's gross currency manipulation than at least short term something like bitcoins could fire up real fucking quick. Of course the collapse will be just as quick.
 
Yeah, I'm sure if you had just known you could have restructured your portfolio and made a killing!

:rolleyes:
 
No, our difference is that people like me get stuck supporting people like you.
Don't forget my stepdaughter, ever since she was awarded Soc. Security you're supporting her :D
 
I don't mind helping the helpless. But I do mind subsidizing the clueless.

Big difference.
She's both, actually. And if the public school system were in better condition she wouldn't have been basically handed a graduation certificate without skills. Mom and dad aren't entirely blameless but school fucked up hard with this kid by not demanding her parents get better outside testing/therapy. The parents trusted the school's opinion and the result is a 10 year old mind in a 25 y/o body and both of them are clueless and goaless

But we need to keep cutting public school funding because nobody wants to pay higher taxes, right? And a public school education is guaranteed to us but the actual quality of that education, not so much.
 
On another note ... am I the only person that is willing TO DRIVE OUT OF MY WAY to avoid Detroit thanks to the reality show Hardcore Pawn? Those people scare me.
 
She's both, actually. And if the public school system were in better condition she wouldn't have been basically handed a graduation certificate without skills. Mom and dad aren't entirely blameless but school fucked up hard with this kid by not demanding her parents get better outside testing/therapy. The parents trusted the school's opinion and the result is a 10 year old mind in a 25 y/o body and both of them are clueless and goaless

But we need to keep cutting public school funding because nobody wants to pay higher taxes, right? And a public school education is guaranteed to us but the actual quality of that education, not so much.

Yeah, let's pump more money into the public school system. And we should buy Zimmerman another gun and Casey Anthony another baby while we're at it.

The first rule for getting out of a hole is to stop digging.
 
If we're not going to give George his gun back after his acquittal, I think we do need to buy him a new gun. Something better than that shitty keltec too.
 
Here's what baffles me about schools:

1) citizens get a false sense of security by sending their kid to a government-operated school. The vast majority of Americans put more thought into their holiday meal than they do where to send their kid to school.

2) the government fails the kid and parents. Huge surprise!

3) citizen decides that if the school were just given more money, it would all be better.

Even if you set aside issues around unionized teachers, bloated administration, corrupt inside government deals and hidden agendas, a voucher program would STILL be better, simply because citizens would be forced to shop around for a school. Any level of engagement would be an provent.
 
Here's what baffles me about schools:

1) citizens get a false sense of security by sending their kid to a government-operated school. The vast majority of Americans put more thought into their holiday meal than they do where to send their kid to school.

2) the government fails the kid and parents. Huge surprise!

3) citizen decides that if the school were just given more money, it would all be better.

Even if you set aside issues around unionized teachers, bloated administration, corrupt inside government deals and hidden agendas, a voucher program would STILL be better, simply because citizens would be forced to shop around for a school. Any level of engagement would be an improvent.


Fixed.







The grammar, not the school problem, which may be unfixable.
 
Detroits gonna need some ED-209 models. Im gonna get Dick Jones on the horn stat
 
It takes the cops an hr to show up if you need them, 30% of the ambulances work and I think 40% of the street lights don't work... Can we just give Detroit to Canada or something?
 
Socialism is great until you run out of other peoples' money.

Detroit worked exactly like it should. It was the automotive capital of the world and it decided to blow its seemingly insurmountable lead.

It's a microcosm for what we're doing across the country. America has turned its back on capitalism -- the principle that got us here in the first place. But don't fret -- the wealthy will be just fine. Notice how the stock market is fully recovered, yet the real unemployment rate is spectacularly high?

So Vallejo, Stockton, Mammoth Lakers, San Bernardino, Compton... near 40% of public employment and ruled by Reps. (Deukmejian, Barton Wilson, Schwarzi) and in bankrpuptcy (well maybe you call in a different way the public rescue of these cities, you know when capitalism goes wrong blame it on Europe or democrats or the rain or the sun) were too socialists?

Selective memory?

Detroit isn’t alone. The U.S. cities that have gone bankrupt, in one map
 
So Vallejo, Stockton, Mammoth Lakers, San Bernardino, Compton... near 40% of public employment and ruled by Reps. (Deukmejian, Barton Wilson, Schwarzi) and in bankrpuptcy (well maybe you call in a different way the public rescue of these cities, you know when capitalism goes wrong blame it on Europe or democrats or the rain or the sun) were too socialists?

Selective memory?

Detroit isn’t alone. The U.S. cities that have gone bankrupt, in one map

I'm just surprised that you haven't blamed Detroit on Bush -- that's a sign of personal growth. And for a European, that's practically like advancing beyond your caste.
 
Detroit pension system was designed in a bad way. I agree
Retiree pensions are being funded by current city workers.
Probably due to hiring freezes / lack of tax revenue, the current city employees are paying for retirees.

The bankruptcy was declared unconstitutional via state constitution

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Detroit pension system was designed in a bad way. I agree
Retiree pensions are being funded by current city workers.
Probably due to hiring freezes / lack of tax revenue, the current city employees are paying for retirees.

The bankruptcy was declared unconstitutional via state constitution

Sent from my SCH-I545 using EliteFitness

A county judge tried to interfere with a federal proceeding. They should have issued a stay against the war on terror and the war on drugs while they were at it.
 
So Vallejo, Stockton, Mammoth Lakers, San Bernardino, Compton... near 40% of public employment and ruled by Reps. (Deukmejian, Barton Wilson, Schwarzi) and in bankrpuptcy (well maybe you call in a different way the public rescue of these cities, you know when capitalism goes wrong blame it on Europe or democrats or the rain or the sun) were too socialists?

Selective memory?

Detroit isn’t alone. The U.S. cities that have gone bankrupt, in one map


his brain operates in binary form. It can only process things as black and white, left vs right, cap vs soc etc, etc. You get the picture.
 
his brain operates in binary form. It can only process things as black and white, left vs right, cap vs soc etc, etc. You get the picture.

So do the most powerful supercomputers on Earth.

So from this I must either assume:

1) You are paying me a compliment

or

2) Cybercollege doesn't have engineering or computer science classes either.
 
So do the most powerful supercomputers on Earth.

So from this I must either assume:

1) You are paying me a compliment

or

2) Cybercollege doesn't have engineering or computer science classes either.


I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a muppet like you would consider it a compliment to be compared to even the most powerful of soulless machines, it explains a lot about you actually. A supercomputer is still, afterall, just a computer. If you consider it a compliment to be compared to one than your issues in life are so severe that there is no therapy for it.
 
0111001101110100011101010110111001101110011001010110010000100000011000110111010101101110011101000000110100001010
 
01101100011000010111010101100111011010000010000001101111011101010111010000100000011011000110111101110101011001000000110100001010
 
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a muppet like you would consider it a compliment to be compared to even the most powerful of soulless machines, it explains a lot about you actually. A supercomputer is still, afterall, just a computer. If you consider it a compliment to be compared to one than your issues in life are so severe that there is no therapy for it.

I'm going to go with "No Engineering or Computer Classes at Cybercollege. Final answer."
 
I'm going to go with "No Engineering or Computer Classes at Cybercollege. Final answer."

if someone knows what binary is in the first place chances are they know that computers think in 0's and 1's. Again, if this is a compliment to you, cheers, you are fucked.
 
Yeah, you're a regular computer fucking genius. It's written all over you.
 
Knowing computers operate based on a binary code is one thing, but how many people can actually intelligently discuss binary, ASCII, braile or BCD?
 
stfu
 
jDM4sRb.gif
 
if someone knows what binary is in the first place chances are they know that computers think in 0's and 1's. Again, if this is a compliment to you, cheers, you are fucked.

There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that know binary and those that don't.
 
Detroit Will be Democracy's Decisive Battle

"Orr admitted that he never even raised the subject of getting the state to help Detroit out of its fiscal difficulties. And, why would he? His mission is not to save the city, but to break it into auctionable pieces and to garnishee its remaining revenue streams for bankers. His opening fiscal reorganization plan would pay off Bank of America and UBS, who have already made millions on a 2005 derivatives scheme with the city, establishing Britain’s Barclay’s Bank as the super-priority creditor with dibs on $4 million a month in Detroit casino revenues if the city defaults.
To ensure that the city can never escape the clutches of capital, the contract would allow Barclay’s to immediately declare Detroit in default if Emergency Financial Manager rule is ended for any reason – that is, the corporate plan calls for the permanent cessation of democracy in Detroit.
That’s the plan for the whole country. Wall Street recognizes that it cannot effectively consume the public sphere as long as the public retains the electoral democratic mechanisms to stop it. In other words, concentrated capital can no longer coexist with even the thin gruel of American democracy. The Black polity is the weakest link in the U.S. democratic armor. White folks won’t protect it, and Black folks have the least resources to defend it. The generals of Wall Street have purposely chosen Detroit as the decisive battleground, where the power of massed capital will be hyper-charged by an endemic, unreconstructed racism that can reliably be expected to deny that democracy is really at stake, at all. It’s just, you know – “the Blacks.”
And even some Black folks will agree.
 
quote from Dan Gilbert, owner of the Cleveland Cavs and 2nd most owner of land in Detroit.

“As hard as that is to sort of suspend democracy, for a short period of time if you will, my view is, let’s get it over with,” Gilbert told NPR’s Morning Edition. “Let’s get it done. Let’s stop talking about it [and] go through the pain and then move forward, and I think it will fade into the background.”


He's talking about fucking over people who worked their whole lives and had absolutely nothing to do with the mismanagement of the city of Detroit. This is the new united states of america.
 
Socialism is great until you run out of other peoples' money.

Detroit worked exactly like it should. It was the automotive capital of the world and it decided to blow its seemingly insurmountable lead.

It's a microcosm for what we're doing across the country. America has turned its back on capitalism -- the principle that got us here in the first place. But don't fret -- the wealthy will be just fine. Notice how the stock market is fully recovered, yet the real unemployment rate is spectacularly high?

yep..
 
Detroit is getting what it deserves. Next time, don't run your city into the ground believing your too big to fail.

I just hope Detroit's creditors come out of this OK. They are the real heroes here, for taking the risk in the first place.
 
Detroit is getting what it deserves. Next time, don't run your city into the ground believing your too big to fail.

I just hope Detroit's creditors come out of this OK. They are the real heroes here, for taking the risk in the first place.


you mean the people that made 100's of millions in derivative schemes that were the major reason detroit got taken down? Yes, the people who ran Detroit were not smart enough to understand how they were getting scammed by wall street. :coffee:
 
you mean the people that made 100's of millions in derivative schemes that were the major reason detroit got taken down? Yes, the people who ran Detroit were not smart enough to understand how they were getting scammed by wall street. :coffee:

Voters installed the managers that made horrible decisions.

Elections have consequences. It's just like the tens of millions of people in the process of losing their health care plans right now. People tried to warn them, and they even voted Barry in for a second term.

The system is working as intended. Elect weak/corrupt leaders then shovel tons of money at them -- what else could anyone reasonable expect?


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So the major fault that you can find with Detroit voters is that they didn't elect people with Ivy league finance degrees....of which i'm sure there were many candidates. You see the flaw here right?
 
So the major fault that you can find with Detroit voters is that they didn't elect people with Ivy league finance degrees....of which i'm sure there were many candidates. You see the flaw here right?

People get the government they deserve. The Detroit process worked exactly as it should. I bet the union bosses and fatcats made out very well over the decades.

Just like now. We'll be talking about what a horrible job Barry did 25 years from now. We'll be discussing how he wrecked health care, created more generational poverty and accelerated the economic downfall of the US. It's happening now -- we're witnessing it. But alas, all we will hear about is how his victims (the poor) just didn't know. That's bullshit. We all know, just like the citizens of Detroit knew back then.

Life is a contact sport Get a helmet.

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Life is a contact sport Get a helmet.

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no, you don't get to excuse corruption like that. Those people went to work every day and put their time in. This has ntohing to do with politics, they deserve what they earned. End of discussion. You don't get to say that it's just tough shit that some wall street guys came in and scammed the city with the, likely, the help of "some" officials and/or unionizers. You are personally corrupt if that's what you're doing.
 
no, you don't get to excuse corruption like that. Those people went to work every day and put their time in. This has ntohing to do with politics, they deserve what they earned. End of discussion. You don't get to say that it's just tough shit that some wall street guys came in and scammed the city with the, likely, the help of "some" officials and/or unionizers. You are personally corrupt if that's what you're doing.

The system worked as intended. I'm just sad that the voters can now choose to leave the city. They should have to stay in that mess for at least 10 years.


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You don't need to understand derivatives to know that if you elect scumbags to office and pump money into union bosses that things won't end well. That's just common sense.

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You don't need to understand derivatives to know that if you elect scumbags to office and pump money into union bosses that things won't end well. That's just common sense.

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So in a round about way you're admitting that the derivatives scheme is what took down Detroit, but it's the voters fault for voting in people who no matter how they voted would have done exactly the same. Makes sense. Aren't you the one saying all the time how it doesn't matter what party is in office they're all corrupt and govt just has to shut down?
 
So in a round about way you're admitting that the derivatives scheme is what took down Detroit, but it's the voters fault for voting in people who no matter how they voted would have done exactly the same. Makes sense. Aren't you the one saying all the time how it doesn't matter what party is in office they're all corrupt and govt just has to shut down?

No, I let you run with the kooky derivatives scheme theory all by yourself, because I get tired of proving you wrong.

And of course both parties are corrupt, which is why electing people who want to make the government smaller is the only correct vote. But when they go out of their way to elect dirtbags, they deserve what they get.
 
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