Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below I keep reading threads where people are suggesting and promoting the use of arimidex during PCT....last I remember arimidex was most useful during cycle and many people believed it wasnt nearly as effective as drugs like clomid and nolva for post cycle therapy....has something changed? are people finding it just effective in PCT as it is on cycle? I'd like to know because I have an unopened bottle sitting around and maybe ill use it instead of nolva for my next PCT
arimidex for PCT???
- Thread starter themanc84
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enacer420nj
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Arimidex or aromasin is great for controlling estrogen during PCT especially when HCG is in onvolved
Keep in mind, most so called experts are just parrots. Nolva and Clomid came first and that became the standard plan. I spoke out about Clomid back in 2000. I spoke to everyone I knew about my theory -- Dan Duchaine, Jerry Brainium, Dr. Eric Serrano, as well as many bodybuilding pros. I was surprised to hear that my beliefs weren't so radical. But to the internet gurus, I was just a crazy uninformed nutjob.
You see, Clomid and Nolva are estrogens which will compete for estrogen receptors when e gets abnormally high. But why use an estrogen when you can stop it in the first place? That's why I recommened Proviron, because it blocked it at the source. But Arimidex and aromasin is far more effective.
When a cycle ends, estrogen goes up. Why not use a good aromatase blocker? Soem will argue that Clomid is known to restore HPTA
BUT THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE OF THAT !
There are a few studies, ALL of which are questionable. keep in mind, ANYTHING will restore the HPTA to a degree over time.
Add to the fact that Clomid causes depression, lethargy, blurry vision and Nolva kills libido, why in the fucking world would anyone take it? The answer is, in some cases, the estrogen helps -- so those who've used it will swear by it. But it's also why so many people new to the game are thinking WHAT THE FUCK?! THIS STUFF MAKES ME FEEL LIKE SHIT!!!
The best plan is to use some HCG, or HMG along with some dex or aromasin. The use UNLEASHED, POST CYCLE, and Alpha Sustain -- all natty supps to support recovery. That works better, faster and safer than drugs which were never intended to be used by males in the first place. .
You see, Clomid and Nolva are estrogens which will compete for estrogen receptors when e gets abnormally high. But why use an estrogen when you can stop it in the first place? That's why I recommened Proviron, because it blocked it at the source. But Arimidex and aromasin is far more effective.
When a cycle ends, estrogen goes up. Why not use a good aromatase blocker? Soem will argue that Clomid is known to restore HPTA
BUT THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE OF THAT !
There are a few studies, ALL of which are questionable. keep in mind, ANYTHING will restore the HPTA to a degree over time.
Add to the fact that Clomid causes depression, lethargy, blurry vision and Nolva kills libido, why in the fucking world would anyone take it? The answer is, in some cases, the estrogen helps -- so those who've used it will swear by it. But it's also why so many people new to the game are thinking WHAT THE FUCK?! THIS STUFF MAKES ME FEEL LIKE SHIT!!!
The best plan is to use some HCG, or HMG along with some dex or aromasin. The use UNLEASHED, POST CYCLE, and Alpha Sustain -- all natty supps to support recovery. That works better, faster and safer than drugs which were never intended to be used by males in the first place. .
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Here is the protocol I am following. This is by an Endocrinologist and I'm sure many of you have seen this before.
I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.
Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).
If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.
The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.
I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.
I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).
All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
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I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.
Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).
If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.
The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.
I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.
I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).
All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
__________________
Sometimes people take studies out of context and then make assumptions based on that study where it really doesn't apply. For instance, it is true that an A.I. like arimidex will increase LH production in males. But that's based on studies where an already healthy HPTA is involved. Arimidex reduces estrogen; which is probably the strongest actor in the negative feedback loop. When the estrogen receptors at the hypothalamus see less estrogen, it is perceived as a reduction in testosterone and the hypothalamus sends a signal to the pituitary to increase LH production.
In PCT (at least early in PCT) there is virtually no endogenous testosterone production. In this case an A.I. does not reduce estrogen because an A.I. only prevents tesosterone from aromatizing to estrogen. But if there's no testosterone, there's nothing to aromatize. So it seems top me that an A.I. is pointless in PCT.
Now, a S.E.R.M. like clomid competes with estrogen for receptor sites and seems especially good at blocking receptors at the hypothalamus. Clomid doesn't care where the estrogen came from; it blocks it regardless. This makes it a much better choice for PCT than an A.I.
I will make the qualification that an A.I. is very benefical if you're using HCG (as enancer said). Before I was on permanent HRT, I had the best PCT results with the following protocol (coming off long ester cycles):
Week after last injection:
day 1-20: HCG 500IU/day
day 1-20: letrozole 1mg EOD
day 20-48: Clomid 50mg/day
Basically I used HCG to restore my testes and maintain testosterone levels as the long esters clear my bloodstream. Letro was used at the same time to control estrogen from the HCG's increased aromatase activity and to hopefully begin recovery at the hypothalamus. Finally I took clomid for 4 weeks (for the reasons stated above) to complete the recovery.
In PCT (at least early in PCT) there is virtually no endogenous testosterone production. In this case an A.I. does not reduce estrogen because an A.I. only prevents tesosterone from aromatizing to estrogen. But if there's no testosterone, there's nothing to aromatize. So it seems top me that an A.I. is pointless in PCT.
Now, a S.E.R.M. like clomid competes with estrogen for receptor sites and seems especially good at blocking receptors at the hypothalamus. Clomid doesn't care where the estrogen came from; it blocks it regardless. This makes it a much better choice for PCT than an A.I.
I will make the qualification that an A.I. is very benefical if you're using HCG (as enancer said). Before I was on permanent HRT, I had the best PCT results with the following protocol (coming off long ester cycles):
Week after last injection:
day 1-20: HCG 500IU/day
day 1-20: letrozole 1mg EOD
day 20-48: Clomid 50mg/day
Basically I used HCG to restore my testes and maintain testosterone levels as the long esters clear my bloodstream. Letro was used at the same time to control estrogen from the HCG's increased aromatase activity and to hopefully begin recovery at the hypothalamus. Finally I took clomid for 4 weeks (for the reasons stated above) to complete the recovery.
Good post. So basically in my opinion based on what I posted above is to run hcg throughout the cycle in moderate doses and use an AI to control the estrogen. If you didn't run either during cycle than I would suggest get some hcg and run Aromasin. Aromasin is a better choice during pct because it's better on your lipid profile and stacks better with Nolvadex whereas Arimidex doesn't. I would like to hear others opinions as well. Where's the dude from Primordial Performance? Isn't he supposed to be the pct dude lol?
You don't like anastrozol in pct b/c it's an ai...but then recomend letrozole which is...an ai pls explain the logic thanks
Who said anything about lowering it too low? Use the appropriate dosage.
beyond that -- there is a LOT of misinformation in this thread. If that endo is quoted correctly he needs to go back to school. Also, nydj66, you're on the right track but your conclusion is erroneous. First of all, there can be aromatization in the pc stage. And if estro isn't that high, Clomid can actually ADD MORE estrogen.
As for Nolvadex, it's such a limited , terrible drug it's almost pointless discussing it. It's the leeches of PCT. Unless you have gyno, nolva serves no purpose other than to delay recuperation.
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