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You will not keep your gains

M

myasshurts

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This is my first visit to this site in a while. I did 1 cycle well over a year ago. I put on about 20 pounds of LBM and was very pleased with myself. I had the reassurances of people online and a few athletes I know that I would keep most of it. I did for a while. 4 months post cycle I was hanging around +15. I kept eating well and working out and eating well. In the time that has passed, I have very gradually gone back to about +3, where I would easily be now if I hadn't done that cycle. The drop was so gradual that I didn't really notice it. I now firmly believe that AS gains are not maintable in the long run, unless you were very small to begin with. Your body will eventually revert to normal without the occassional boost. All you people that talk on here about "gains kept" try going 2 years without a cycle and see what you are really keeping. I'm not criticizing anybody, just putting this out there for people that might be considering their 1st. I really don't care at this point. I am very happy with my build and am over the whole get huge thing. My health and stress come way before my muscle size. I have also found that I am much better at grappling/fighting at my natural weight(200) then I was at my juiced weight(220) In case anyone is curious I am 6`1. I have better endurance and coordination, and I am more than strong enough to handle the juice heads. Like I said I really am not criticizing anyone, just throwing out another point of view than what is normally pushed on this site. Take a long term view of what you are doing and see if it is really worth the acne, needles, diet, money, mood swing, legal risk... Best wishes to everybody.
 
If you get past your genetic limit in terms of bodyweight with gear and then stop taking it then, yeah overtime you'll revert back to your maximum natural weight... but if you're under your genetic limit you should keep all the gains you have after clomid- assuming you're still lifting.

Don't you think if you indeed did eventually lose all your gains then more people than just you would have realized this amazing phenomenon?

Muscle is muscle... whether you get it with steroids or lifting naturally you will hang on to it as long as you workout and are under your max genetically determined weight.
 
Well I guess I don't really see the point in using them if you can get to the same place without them. One argument would be speed, but I reached what I believe to be my limit when I was only 20. To each his own I guess...
 
Oh and I forgot to mention the tendonitis. I have it real bad in my arms and I am positive it came from the large weight I was moving while on. It didn't really become noticable until a month or so after I came off.
 
I disagree with your conclusions. Based on personal experience, AS use changes a person's genetic "spot" permanently.
 
Dial_tone said:
I developed alot of muscle before ever juicing, then only sought moderate gains when on juice. In the 16 yrs since I've juiced I'm only down about 10 lbs of muscle from my peak, and that includes a 10 yr period of very sporadic training. I say max out your natural potential THEN juice. Otherwise it's a huge waste of money.
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Some would argue it just gets you where you would have eventually gotten naturally- faster.
 
I just started again after a year off. I'm 28 years old and started AS when I was 24, after YEARS of natural training. I am bigger and stronger now than I ever was when natural, and after a year of off time it certainly seems permanent.

However, this is my body, not yours. You may be different, but many people I have spoken with throughout the years agree that AS changes your spot.

After all, side effects are sometimes permanent. Why wouldn't this also be conversely true with some other aspects of AS use?
 
I've done five cycles in the past 4 years... started in 1999 when I was 28 years old, I'm now 32. I weighed 150lbs in 1999... approx 10%BF. I'm now 195lbs at 12%BF(5'11"). I've taken anywhere from 3-8 months off between cycles.

For my last three cycles, I've used an ancilliary regimen of HCG, Nolva, and Clomid. I've kept all my gains each time.
 
I agree, i think AAS move the chains as far as maximum genetic potential are concerned. This is taking into account a lot of the people i know downt he gym. There is no way some of them could be that big even after being off cycle for a long time.
 
Ie posted this inthe past

What MAH said is absolutely true. Ive cycled 17 years including na one year on Eq and being COMPLETLY clean for 3 years straight.
Your body will return to almost precycle shape. I tried to beaat this by eating a fk load of cals. Result: I got to cycle weight but looked like crap. No one would have thought I ever cycled. These are just some true hard learned facts over a greater period of time than most on these boards.
 
Re: Ie posted this inthe past

marky said:
What MAH said is absolutely true. Ive cycled 17 years including na one year on Eq and being COMPLETLY clean for 3 years straight.
Your body will return to almost precycle shape. I tried to beaat this by eating a fk load of cals. Result: I got to cycle weight but looked like crap. No one would have thought I ever cycled. These are just some true hard learned facts over a greater period of time than most on these boards.
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I took ~1 year between my last 2 cycles and was 15 lbs. heavier at the start of the year then when I did my last one. So in one natural year I lost about 12-13 lbs. (which I believe was weight over my genetic max). If someone is doing 2 cycles a year I think they will always stay over the genetic limit, but take 2 years off and that might not be the case anymore...
 
Re: Ie posted this inthe past

marky said:
What MAH said is absolutely true. Ive cycled 17 years including na one year on Eq and being COMPLETLY clean for 3 years straight.
Your body will return to almost precycle shape. I tried to beaat this by eating a fk load of cals. Result: I got to cycle weight but looked like crap. No one would have thought I ever cycled. These are just some true hard learned facts over a greater period of time than most on these boards.
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:( :(
 
I think it all has to be kept in perspective. I reached my natural "SPOT" at the age of 36. I trained and competed naturally for 16 years. At this point I was 5'9" at 215 lbs. Bigger than most people using AS. I started AS for fun. If you are not going to turn pro, then why is anyone doing AS if it is not for fun? I just wanted to experience the next level and I fully expect to lose every bit of what I have gained on AS. I know what that level is and I will be happy there also. I guess I am missing the point. Why would anyone be thinking they are going to keep the gains that they make off a cycle? If you keep some of them, then great! Otherwise, have fun and keep it in perspective.

Oh, by the way, I have spent, wasted, more money on natural supps that were the greatest thing since sliced bread, than any cycle that gave me real results.
 
a lot of it has to also do with how long you maintained that "weight". I mean, if you took an 8 or 12 week cycle and expect to go off and maintain that, you will not, on the other hand, if you maintain that weight over a longer period of time, say over a year, then quit, you are more likely to keep it more of it, since alot of it will be actual muscle gain and not water weight. I think it's funny when people say I gained 15-20 lbs lbm, that is VERY hard to do on a 1 year bulking cycle without going off roids at all. :)
 
Good point brick girl. And thats how it was for me after doing Eq for a year. The relative term here seems to be weight. Where the real factoir should be LBM. A facrtor which is very much more difficult to maintain w/o AAS.
 
I agree with the first poster. I spent 10 years in the game. i juiced heavy lifted to the point i could not sleep from bad elbows and knees, but beleived it was all worth it. I lost it all. it took over 1 year but it all went. I may be a little bigge than i would of been had i not juiced, but i lost 40+ pounds the first year. and i ate big, trained big. The simple point is, if you need drugs to get it, you need drugs to keep it!

IF YOU NEED DRUGS TO GET IT, YOU NEED DRUGS TO KEEP IT

the really sad part is that i could be at the weight i am right now, but 1) i would still be able to lift heavy probably without all the joint issues 2) i would have a shit load less health issues 3) i would not have had to have surgeries to removes cycst that grew while juicing that i didnt know about until later that caused me tons of issues.... bla bla... no matter what i say you people are so brain washed that you actually believe that steroids help your life, like there magic. hell, i cant blame you, so did i... you will wake up one day to, trust me!
 
I agree with Lift Chief, Big Johnson, and Brick Girl. Since taking steroids intake also increases igf-1 production you not only make your muscles bigger overall but create more muscle fibers via hyperplasia which changes your genetic makeup entirely.
 
Yes and no.

First of all, the "increased muscle fiber" is arguable. Viewpoints differ on this and many believe muscle cells, like fat cells, are predetermined and can only enlarge or decrease in size.

Okay, on to the original statement.

Muscle gained from steroids is still muscle and can definitely be maintained. Of course if you stop training and eat like crap you'll also lose it. You can't keep muscle gained naturally if you don't train correctly, so it isn't a matter of how you grew the muscle, it's knowing what to do to keep it.

HOWEVER...

We all have a set point. (Both natural and enhanced) If you were to gain 60 pounds beyond your natural point using drugs you will not be able to sustain the extra size, drug-free for very long, for no other reason other than you won't have the endogenous testosterone to maitain that much muscle. Few people do.

Now I've always been a terminal ectomorph but through proper training and diet, at the age of 37, I put on another 25 pounds of muscle. (Pretty damn good, if I do say so myself). But that was my limit. Adding more weight would only mean adding more fat as well. (Unacceptable) With several low dose, short duration cycles I put on an ADDITIONAL 25 pounds and kept every bit of it. But, if I were to do more/higher dosed cycles, I'd gain more mass, but not maintain it. In other words, my "enhanced" genetic limit that I can keep naturally has also been met.
What's also interesting is that at a certain point, (and this occurs with most everyone, though few will admit it) steroid enduced gains aren't of the same qualty. One tends to increase in overall size, but the level of muscularity seems to level off. Your muscles are no more dense or seperated from additional cycles -- only bigger.
 
Nelson Montana said:
What's also interesting is that at a certain point, (and this occurs with most everyone, though few will admit it) steroid enduced gains aren't of the same qualty. One tends to increase in overall size, but the level of muscularity seems to level off. Your muscles are no more dense or seperated from additional cycles -- only bigger.
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What do you mean by level of mascularity? I am confused? :confused:

-sk
 
I think testalot summed it up well. IF YOU NEED DRUGS TO GET IT, YOU NEED DRUGS TO MAINTAIN IT. I think for those of you that gained 10-15 and kept it, you didn't really need the drugs to get there. They just let you get there much quicker.
 
Steroids Do Not change your genetic makeup, that is the composition of your genes.

The DNA blueprint for your personal level of muscle type, strength, metabolism and ideal size is all predetermined before birth. No anabolic / androgenic compound will ever change your genetic makeup. Also muscle size increases are as a result of muscle fiber growth, not additional muscle fiber creation. You can manipulate your body all you want (and quite simplistically to a certain level) yet it will always try and revert back to homeostasis, your predetermined genetic coding.
 
So, what your saying is this. You have someone that starts out weighing 190lbs naturally and eventually works his way up to 240lbs through the use of multiple cycles of Gear. Then, when he gets off of Gear for a 1 year or so. He reverts back to 190-195lbs, right???
 
I would say he is most likely to revert to his natural limit, whatever that may be. 190 may not have been his limit. If he could have gotten to 220 without drugs he could stay there after he comes off. If he is a freak then maybe he will only drop a few pounds. I guess the hard part is knowing where your body thinks it should be at.
 
Caloric intake has a lot to do with holding your gains. If you are eating nothing but COMPLEX (NOTHING REFINED) carbs, and high quality proteins at a rate 15 times your bodyweight, you should keep your gains. If you were a 200 pound guy and now you are 230, you have to eat like a 230 pound guy.

Many people think they are eating enough, but when they sit down and meticulously go through their diet they will realize that they aren't even close to coloric level they need to grow.
 
Texas Ranger said:
So, what your saying is this. You have someone that starts out weighing 190lbs naturally and eventually works his way up to 240lbs through the use of multiple cycles of Gear. Then, when he gets off of Gear for a 1 year or so. He reverts back to 190-195lbs, right???
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I was only referring to gear in pointing out that it cannot change your DNA.

To clarify my statement with your example, I am saying that this 190lb guy may get to 240lbs, and can indeed hold a good portion of it (how well / much partially determined by his genes) the other part being diet and training. If the person is naturally more physiologically gifted in holding the weight he may hold all 240 no problems (which would be very rare) or variable x amount less. I am not saying everyone will fall back on there preset weight, just that your body will keep gradually trying to bring it there, that is what its instructed to do, and for the most part this process is easily averted – just make up for caloric deficits, which will once again only work until you hit a certain x amount of weight, at this point without chemical assistance holding the muscle would be extremely strenuous.

In a simpler and more obvious example regarding ones genetic presets; If that same person at 240lbs started eating only his standard maintenance calories, his body would inevitably pull back to the ideal weight for his frame (close to his ideal BMI), over time | it would not change its blueprint due to decades of training and a plethora of anabolic drugs to state that the muscle gained will be spared from catabolism and be kept. If your body wanted you to have 21" arms, you would have the amount of fibres naturally to have them, all while eating your maintinence (no deficit / exess) calories. Different people have very different metabolisms, and the change would be gradual but your body will never alter its genes to instruct your body to keep the 50lbs of muscle you put on. You would have to constantly fight it with training, diet and drugs (especially drugs if the difference is so great). Inevitably you would loose a lot of what you worked for as you may forget to hit required caloric / nutrient levels, but your body always 'on' would make up that difference by catabolically burning its combination of fat/muscle/glycogen to make it up. So in essence your genes would not all of a sudden spontaneously alter in such a favorable way that would instruct your body to slow down its muscle metabolism or keep its nitrogen retention high to alleviate losses (and your gains).
 
To me, this is a very good thread. It brings up a couple of questions. 1) How do we know what our genetic limit is? 2) what determines our genetic limit?

We can observe that our genetic limit can be exceeded, as far as muscle mass, by using anabolics. What else might help us do the same? Perhaps on a smaller scale.

Has anyone ever scientifically tested training theories, calorie cycling, etc. over the course of a lifetime to test the "natural" limits? You would need a control (a twin? a clone?).

I wonder what might be possible, and it might do us all some good to think about what we accept as fact. There may be (there most definitely are in some way) revolutionary ideas that might help us achieve our goals in ways we never have known before.

Jacob
 
jacshelb said:
To me, this is a very good thread. It brings up a couple of questions. 1) How do we know what our genetic limit is? 2) what determines our genetic limit?
Click to expand...

That's a REALLY good question, but I would think that by observing your heredity traits from your parents and grandparents will give you a good idea what is your genetic limit. Well, maybe not since they most likely didn't work out. But, seeing if they are bulky, and big boned-- you may be able to carry more mass than compared to skinner relatives etc.


:confused:
 
BrickGirl said:
a lot of it has to also do with how long you maintained that "weight". I mean, if you took an 8 or 12 week cycle and expect to go off and maintain that, you will not, on the other hand, if you maintain that weight over a longer period of time, say over a year, then quit, you are more likely to keep it more of it, since alot of it will be actual muscle gain and not water weight. I think it's funny when people say I gained 15-20 lbs lbm, that is VERY hard to do on a 1 year bulking cycle without going off roids at all. :)
Click to expand...

BrickGirl has an excellent point. Many people claim they gain 20lbs of lbm in a 10 week cycle and that is very hard. My theory is that if you build solid muslce and you work it hard and eat well you will keep most of it unless you are way beyond your genetic maximum. But the weight gains that most claim are just to satisfy their ego. The body just doesn't start the muscle building factory after the first injection of test.
 
I'll come back to my original point..I believe that I reached my natural limit before ever touching AS. I have done AS to take things to the next level..I know that I will not stay there. I have too many friends to use as examples. All of the diet, nutritian, supplements and training are not the same. Use AS to go above and beyond natural levels. Do you really think you will look the same off cycle? You didn't look that way before the cycle.

Some of you may keep a fair amount of gains..I have gained 6-8 lbs of lean mass per year naturally with training and diet. That's the best I could do, I tried all of the latest and greatest supps.

To Brickgirls point, 10 lbs of lean mass over a longer period of time is probably getting closer to your natural potential for gains anyway.
 
It all depends on your set point. If you use juice to get above your natural limit, then you'll lose most of it if you don't run drugs to keep it. Your body will always go back to it's set point.
 
I've been on four cycles over the past two years and used hcg, clomid, nolva post cycle by the book just like my regular cycles.

I kept a training diary since the day i started. Been clean for almost a month (no clomid etc.).

End result over the past two years = 0

Thats right sports fans! ZERO RESULTS!

Actually, I have gone up a few reps on squat and deads and gained a few pounds. But two years???

Don't bother with speeches on training and diet. Been there done that. Some people like myself were born to suck at this game. Maybe its better this way because it is so much easier to walk away from the gear scene. It left me flat. Literally.
 
Some good points, and a lot of speculation -- probably due to the fact that most of the participents haven't been at it for too long. I trained for 20 years before using steroids.

One point that a lot of people are missing is this:

It's all about homeostasis -- BUT -- homeostasis is all about adaptation! And getting the body properly adapted to greater growth is te key to keeping it.

Now I've been chided in the past for recommending low dose cycles. I can't remember how many members of this board scoffed at my 3 week method. I'd get remarks like "You're used to being around small guys. We want to ge HUGE" or "You're old school Nelson. Today you gotta do slin and GH and at least a gram a week for 10 -12 weeks followed by HCG and clomid and bromocriptine." Well, let me get this off my chest once and for all...


You're all kidding yourselves.

Growth of that magnitude can not be maintained without drugs, and it's this type of drug usage that so many people are seeing and therefore drawing their conclusions.

If you want REAL muscle, you must use steroids as an aid to "natural" traning. That means allowing the body to slowly adapt to the increased size with a combination of low doses, ncreased protein and hard training! I laugh at these people who say they want to gain 20 pounds on a cycle. Then they wimper and whine that they're losing their gains post cycle, and they have no motivation to train, and they have no dick, and they need a good "cutting cycle" because they got fat. Wake up folks. You can only fool Mother Nature so much. But she can be coaxed -- if you know what you're doing.

And yes sk, I see it all the time -- even among pros. When you first use steroids you're muscles take on a higher quality, but after a while they look no different. A guy can go from 220 to 260 and look exactly the same. He's just bigger.

Now if someone wants to live their life addicted to drugs (and make no mistake about it -- it's addiction) then that's their choice. But if you want to use these amazing compounds to "re-set" your genetic limit, it can be done. You just have to be willing to work for it. And pay for it. Using crap vet gear because it's "cheap" is a fools paradise.

If you're going to do it, do it right.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Some good points, and a lot of speculation -- probably due to the fact that most of the participents haven't been at it for too long. I trained for 20 years before using steroids.

You're all kidding yourselves.

Growth of that magnitude can not be maintained without drugs, and it's this type of drug usage that so many people are seeing and therefore drawing their conclusions.

If you want REAL muscle, you must use steroids as an aid to "natural" traning. That means allowing the body to slowly adapt to the increased size with a combination of low doses, ncreased protein and hard training! I laugh at these people who say they want to gain 20 pounds on a cycle. Then they wimper and whine that they're losing their gains post cycle, and they have no motivation to train, and they have no dick, and they need a good "cutting cycle" because they got fat. Wake up folks. You can only fool Mother Nature so much. But she can be coaxed -- if you know what you're doing.

Now if someone wants to live their life addicted to drugs (and make no mistake about it -- it's addiction) then that's their choice. But if you want to use these amazing compounds to "re-set" your genetic limit, it can be done. You just have to be willing to work for it. And pay for it. Using crap vet gear because it's "cheap" is a fools paradise.

If you're going to do it, do it right.
Click to expand...

There is wisdom in this. After a decade of serious training and a couple of years of AS off and on I realized that my genetics are pre-disposed to be 1) naturally lean and 2) weight under 200 lbs.

If i stopped cycling eventually i would not be able to maintain my weight or size while on. I wasn't born to be over 220lbs naturally or anything like that. Even when i'm over 210 my blood pressure gets dangerous and my breathing becomes difficult. Sure you can argue that it will take time for me to stay at that weight before my body "adapts" but i think your fooling yourself if you believe that you can maintain good health like that.

So what do you do , you either bite the bullet and live your life in the danger zone or you abandon the expectation that you will look like Arnold someday and just take the safer road looking the best you can with your genetics.

For now i'll go as far as i can but someday i know it will come to and end. Arnold , Dorian , Kevin Levrone and Flex Wheeler will all tell you that staying at that size and being healthy is impossible.
 
So for those of you who are saying that you lost everything or near everything after being off for a long time, what I don't understand is this? Are you saying that all the strength you gained before while being on has slowly diminished? I just can't imagine losing the strength that I have gained on my only two cycles. Using eca before workouts and eating plenty and I have had no problem maintaining my strength which is what I would think would maintain the majority of my gains.
 
That is hard to say for me. I know I am pretty damn strong. I am not nearly as strong as I was when on, but I am also 20 pds lighter. It does seem like this would be one area of permanent benefit. But then again, who knows how strong I would be if I had never used and steroids and just kept lifting naturally the whole way through?
 
THEN WHY IN FUCK ARE WE ALL DOING THIS TO OURSELVES?! we inject, we swallow, hell ive swallowed gear i was supposed to inject(winny). and for what? for what i ask. when all is said and done we are going to return to the way we were before we ever juiced? no no i take that question back we wont be the same... we will have acne, liver problems, and we will have rapidly sped up the balding process. and for what? to be 30 lbs heavier for 5 months until it eventually melts away? i dont know boys, i think im starting to have a revelation here...
 
BrickGirl said:
a lot of it has to also do with how long you maintained that "weight". I mean, if you took an 8 or 12 week cycle and expect to go off and maintain that, you will not, on the other hand, if you maintain that weight over a longer period of time, say over a year, then quit, you are more likely to keep it more of it, since alot of it will be actual muscle gain and not water weight. I think it's funny when people say I gained 15-20 lbs lbm, that is VERY hard to do on a 1 year bulking cycle without going off roids at all. :)
Click to expand...

Although you make excellent points, and we all value the input, will you please keep posting so I can keep looking at your avatar? ;)
-B
 
I did not overtrain. I eased off on the training like everyone recommends. The sad fact of the matter is most human beings are not made to be musclebound freaks.
 
Big Johnson said:
I disagree with your conclusions. Based on personal experience, AS use changes a person's genetic "spot" permanently.
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I have to agree with this. I am the same age and my off season weight is 235 when it used to be 195 four years ago. Now when i'm on i hit 255 and when i get off and stay off it doesn't go lower than about 20.
 
you can achieve a higher set point with gear. the homeostatic point from which it is usually difficult to move up or down.

for people with high metabolisms maintaining a higher set point is more difficult.

the longer you stay at a point the less likely your body to lose those "gains".

people with poor genetics, will always have poor genetics.. the drugs will hide that fact... much like people that have retroviruses.. the drugs suppress the virus(you get bigger).. but it is still there underlying.. in time your body may get better at suppressing it (increased set point).. but the underlying framework is mostly unchanged..

note: for most people once your big its hard to get small.. but when your inbetween and havenet been there long.. its easy to revert without hard work and discipline (even then it may not be enough)..
 
Just thought I'd toss my 2 cents in. Yeah I haven't cycled extensively (only 2 cycles) but just from experience, the experiences of others I know, and using basic knowledge of science I'd have to agree with macrophage. The longer you keep a certain bodyweight, the harder it will be to lose it. Hence if you do a 6 week cycle and gain 20lbs, you aren't going to keep much of it. If you do a 12 week cycle and gain 20lbs you are a LOT more likely to keep it. Forget who said it but it applies here, "In order to get huge fast, you need to gain slowly"
 
I think what Nelson said makes sense. Alot of it must be about adaptation. That, and activating sattelite cells- my guess anyhow. If you could combine the benefits of slow but steady gains with the benifits of hyperplasia, that would be the ticket. Of course, I don't know if this is possible (hyperplasia I mean).

Along the lines of what I was saying earlier, is there any way to activate sattelite cells without AAS? Are there other drugs to be made with better potential for long term results? Can we cycle smarter with better long term results in mind?

I'm sure that the idea of "delayed gratification" can and should be applied when thinking about gaining muscle. To me we are creating something, working toward a goal. To me it is not about being "huge" by summer (though that would be cool!)/.

Jacob
 
To get huge fast, you must gain slowly makes no sence what so ever.

I think we agree to keep gains, you must gain slowly.

If thats the case; unless you are competitive BB, why do gear at all? You can make slow steady gains by increasing food, intensity of workouts, and time of rest between workouts.

If you quit making gains and reach your genetic potential (something i think is for the most part rare) any chemically enhanced gains will only be temporary. Great if you are going to compete, a brief vanity trip for your average John Q lifter.
 
macrophage69alpha said:
you can achieve a higher set point with gear. the homeostatic point from which it is usually difficult to move up or down.

for people with high metabolisms maintaining a higher set point is more difficult.

the longer you stay at a point the less likely your body to lose those "gains".

people with poor genetics, will always have poor genetics.. the drugs will hide that fact... much like people that have retroviruses.. the drugs suppress the virus(you get bigger).. but it is still there underlying.. in time your body may get better at suppressing it (increased set point).. but the underlying framework is mostly unchanged..

note: for most people once your big its hard to get small.. but when your inbetween and havenet been there long.. its easy to revert without hard work and discipline (even then it may not be enough)..
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Sorry macro. Dont know how long youve been in the bgame but time tells very clear facts.Regardless of proper post cycle training, its just a matter of time you return to previous lbm. Gear is the difference. Would you expect a car to perform the same wo nitrous? Just my experience over 17 years and MANY experiment
NOT SAYING YOURE WRONG,JUST MY EXPERIENCES, SO YOUR CONCUSIONS IMO CANT BE VERIFIED
 
I see a lot of people giving their experiences and opinions, but what we might really want would be a large scale scientific gathering of information. now, we can't probably do that. But, everyone could write down: thier bodyweight before juicing, number of years training before juicing, number of years on the juice, time since last cycle, present bodyweight/fat percentage, and parents all time best conditioning.

Still, it wouldn't be totally scientific, but it would be a start. This is a very difficult topic that very likely is impossible to gauge on one person's experiences.

Jacob
 
I agree with Marky......although I would like to agree with Macro and I actually hope he is correct.

I think steroids use helps one reach their natural maximum weight much more quickly than with natural training. However, I believe one will eventually loose ALL gains above ones natural maximum weight, no matter how smart one trains, eats and sleeps.

I do not believe that a person can alter their set point, or that lean body weight that can be maintained without steroids. If one CAN indeed alter the set point I don't think it would be by very much at all.

Thing is we will never know what the truth is. All we can really do is to look closely at those that no longer use steroids but continue to train. My eyes are telling me that all will revert back to their natural maximum lean body mass and probably in as little as 1 year or less.

I will ask my friend Casey Viator, old 70's pro, and get back to you all.

RG
 
macrophage69alpha said:
you can achieve a higher set point with gear. the homeostatic point from which it is usually difficult to move up or down.

for people with high metabolisms maintaining a higher set point is more difficult.

the longer you stay at a point the less likely your body to lose those "gains".

people with poor genetics, will always have poor genetics.. the drugs will hide that fact... much like people that have retroviruses.. the drugs suppress the virus(you get bigger).. but it is still there underlying.. in time your body may get better at suppressing it (increased set point).. but the underlying framework is mostly unchanged..

note: for most people once your big its hard to get small.. but when your inbetween and havenet been there long.. its easy to revert without hard work and discipline (even then it may not be enough)..
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Im very inclined to agree with this. The reason I sau this is that when I graduated I was a skinny 175lbs. I played hockey and was very active and athletic, jut not a whole lot of mass. Im now 245 and havent been on a cycle for some time and still making gains allbeit small ones.
 
Calling all bro's that have at some time stopped gear for at least a couple of years yet continued to train smart as a natural. These are the ones I would like to hear from.


RG:)
 
Dial_tone said:
I'm probably a decent example then. I started training at age 13 around football season and whenever the coaches felt like opening the weightroom. By 10th grade I knew i was more serious about bodybuilding than football, although I continued to play. Ended football around 5'8", 163lbs; by the time i got to college the next year I was up 171lbs still natural. This also marked the beginning of year round training for me (no more sports). I entered two shows my freshman year and placed top 3 in both. Now it's time to do some juice. Over the next 3 years I probably spent less than 12 months on juice; I just couldn't afford any more. I peaked around 211, pudgier than i would prefer to have been, but still Big Man On Campus. My avatar is me at around 184lbs in 1986.
http://members.cox.net/s.wingate/images/front.jpg
http://members.cox.net/s.wingate/images/rear-lat.jpg

Even with juice I was never very strong - bench 365x2; squat 365x8; deadlift 405. Understand that for me a cycle consisted of 1cc of test (200mg) every 5 days and 4 D-bol/day. That's it! I did that probably 3 times in total; had some Finajet once also. Didn't touch juice ever after '86; trained only sporadically (4-6 months a year) fom '91 to just recently.
Today i'm 5'8', 235 lbs with the extra being all fat. Underneath the fat I still have probably 90% of the muscle I had then, although I firmly believe i built 85% of it naturally anyway. What I don't have left is strength. I'd be stunned if i could bench press my weight; could probably squat 300 or so. Understand I'm 38 now so big lifts never interested me and certainly don't now.
I'm trying to lose the additional fat now i'll know for sure how much muscle is left in 3 months.
I do still look like a muscular guy for sure and I can go to a gym and get a pump just like I did 10 yrs ago.
My opinion: whatever you gain from drugs will disappear when the drugs stop. There is little question in my mind. I can say now that unless you have a chance at making a living from bodybuilding i don't see how the cost is worth it. You guys today are spending thousands of dollars/year, probably under the delusion that when you're 50 you'll like Arnold does today. IT AIN'T HAPPENIN. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and it's way too big.
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Thanx for the reply bro!

BTW I am almost 41 and I am stronger now than when I was 30 and way stronger than when I was 25.

BRO....the first thing to go with age is reflexes and that starts at about 31 or 32. Then overall speed comes down a tad by 34 or so. Endurance can be kept at elite levels until 40 or so. Strength is the last thing to deminish and there are MANY top power lifters in the 40's bro. There is a fella at the gym ,who I train with from time to time, that is 57 and he benches 400 Squats 500 and deadlifts 600!
SO>>>>>don't give up on strength and training in general bro.

RG
:)
 
Gaudging gains up until age 25 is meaningless. Everybody fills out in those years. Gains lost from non-training also don't count.

I'll be looking at 50 next year. I'd rather be 30. But I look better than most 30 year olds.

As one old timer once said to me:

"If they ever find the secret to eternal youth, it'll probably come with a barbell and a set of instructions."
 
with all

due respect, 6'1 200 is not even close to the size you should be if you consider juice. I dont see how somebody, most people codulnt obtain a solid 220 at that height naturally. That being said I think there are other factors effecting your ability to hold that weight.

Lets not forget gear makes you recovery ability change, people need to take that into account.
 
If all this is true, why hasnt Arnold shrank way down to a small size.

He has lost weight but he is 50+. Probably hasn't juiced in 15+ years.

He looks damn good in the T3 previews.

According to some of these posts he should have shrunk down to where he was before he juiced.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Gaudging gains up until age 25 is meaningless. Everybody fills out in those years. Gains lost from non-training also don't count.

I'll be looking at 50 next year. I'd rather be 30. But I look better than most 30 year olds.

As one old timer once said to me:

"If they ever find the secret to eternal youth, it'll probably come with a barbell and a set of instructions."
Click to expand...
Im mid 30's.
 
Rogue Warrior said:
I've been on four cycles over the past two years and used hcg, clomid, nolva post cycle by the book just like my regular cycles.

I kept a training diary since the day i started. Been clean for almost a month (no clomid etc.).

End result over the past two years = 0

Thats right sports fans! ZERO RESULTS!

Actually, I have gone up a few reps on squat and deads and gained a few pounds. But two years???

Don't bother with speeches on training and diet. Been there done that. Some people like myself were born to suck at this game. Maybe its better this way because it is so much easier to walk away from the gear scene. It left me flat. Literally.
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That is EXTREMELY rare, sorry to hear that....
 
I would bet my left nut Arnold is doing GH. Maybe some test to boot.

He is a star who needs to keep his looks and paying for it is chunk change to him.
 
Except for one other post everyone is overlooking one key factor...

Testosterone Levels!

We already know genetics plays a major part in how our bodies respond to resistance training with and without gear. We all know that even with tons of gear, training and nutrition the majority of us will never even be close to the pros. With that said let's look at testosterone. Our bodies only produce so much testosterone. Some men produce more than others hence their naturally bigger size and masculinity. Some men produce less and are small, typically weaker and sometimes even exhibit feminine type features. We know that testerone plays a huge part in promoting anabolism and reducing catabolism. We also know that through resistance training we can promote the release of additional endogenous testosterone that will allow the body to adapt to the new stress placed upon it. Unfortunetely, within our natural limits an interesting thing occurs as described below.

Before reaching our naturally determined maximum genetic weight:

1) We follow a resistance training program
2) We give our body plenty of rest to recuperate and eat sufficiently
3) We end up growing stronger and bigger as a result

As we approach our naturally determined maximum genetic weight:

1) We follow a resistance training program of increased volume and/or intensity
2) Out bodies require more and more rest to recover from the more strenuous workouts ( which reduces how often we can train )
3) Our bodies either cannot recover properly or are overly stressed due to the huge workload
4) Cortisol is going crazy due to the extreme stress place on the body, CNS, etc. and is surpassing the benefits of any additional testosterone released due to the resistance training

Bang! We reached our naturally determined maximum genetic weight. To go beyond this weight would require so much training or training at such a high instensity that even if you could get another pound or two on your body (I'm talking about lean pounds) it would require so much work between training, diet, supplements, rest, etc. that the return on investment would be terrible and not worth it.

So even if the use of AAS are beneficial in terms of stretching the muscle, etc. if the balance between anabolism and catabolism favors catabolism for whatever reason the body is going to catabolize muscle until my hormonal feedback systems says to no longer catabolize muscle. Can anyone maintain muscle mass while getting weekly cortisol shots? Of course not!

I strongly agree with all of those who feel the body will always go back to its naturally determined maximum genetic weight given enough time.
 
In order to keep the gains after AS use, especially years after completely off AS, your body must produce a natural level of testosterone witch is capable of sustaining that gain. This is all genetic, however, taking AS does not change your genetic/natural development of testosterone what so ever!!!!!!! Simple as that my friends..
 
this fuckin thread pisses me off everytime i see it pop back up to the top. Im in mid cycle and this just isnt something i want to hear. If you do one cycle and then get lazy and dont eat right and expect to keep ur gains then ur a moron. also if you're ronnie coleman and you expect to keep your gains you're a moron. I know guys that have been off for years, older guys in their 40's and also guys in their forties that lost ot all due to surgeries or car accidents, and they got it back rather quick without aas. so since muscle has good memory this would mean that the muscle they put on originally from gear was all REAL muscle.
 
This is a good post but very sad to read posts like this, I feel like i lost one of my
best friends hearing that i will lose all my gains..:bawling:
 
Dial_tone said:


Gimme a break. I'll bet the keys to my car Arnold does some HRT before every movie, if only to come in nice and lean.
Click to expand...

After his surgery I doubt he would even consider it.
 
02gixxersix, the muscle memory will kick in after a lay-off, but has nothing to do with how real the AAS gains were. Most everyone (I hope all) had a substancial bit of muscle prior to use. That is what your body can recapture naturally, not what you were dong while you were on your cycle.

Don't be pissed off with the truth. Be happy that you can be liberated.
 
back on line! computer crashed

Look, its all in how long youve been at this obssesion. I jabbed myself for the first time in 1988. You just cant do it for too long or you seriously get burned out, not to mention the pain and dominance the practice can have on your life. So take a LONG break like 1-2 years and do all the natural training. Ive been there and done that several times. Its ALWAYS the same. Grow big, shrink back, put on some more weight by good diet & train
But NEVER like while on. If you stop training and diet completely as I have during turning points in my life, you return to good old normal before aas you. Believe me or not, Im just relating it as it was.
 
Ah shit. My girlfriend is pissed so I'm sitting here on Valentine's.

Anyways, this post is getting old, but was doing some thinking here. I'm about to start my second cycle, and this stuff gets me down when I hear that I won't keep my gains. I believe that you can stay above your genetic potential, as long as your eating enough. Not 20lbs +, but you should be able to keep some extra weight. However, using gear will help you realize your max potential in a shorter time frame. For instance, I'm 5'5 172, and asian. I don't think that my frame will ever be able to naturally hold 200+(nor do I think that would be very healthy long term). However, I know that I can hold more than my weight now. I have an extremely good frame for my height. My next cycle will boost me another few lbs, and over the next 6 months I think I'll drop down to my natural max. I think I'll be able to settle around 185.

So, I think that gear is good to help realize your max potential quicker, and to find out what that is. And maybe....I'm trying to justify my next cycle to myself at the same time.
 
If you are eating enough to stay above your genetic potential after roids you are looking at turning into a fat ass. Only roids will keep your bf% down while eating in excess and even then its not easy.
 
you CAN keep you gains!

not all of them, but if you have the knowledge of what it takes to sustain muscle post cycle then you should be able to keep anywhere between 40%-80% of the muscle gained during cycle.
(if you're under your maximim genetic capability)

the key is knowing how to train and eat post cycle.
 
I beleive that the majority of gear users are under their genitic potential. Now I'm not saying that we (those under our genetic potential) are not training hard but there are many factors that may prevent us from reaching our potential such as not getting enough sleep, work commitments that keep us from a set lifting routine, Stress, etc. Now if there is a product (steroids) that will help you achieve your goals easier of course many of us would and do use them. I believe that the gains we make from gear that bring us closer to our genetic potential can be all kept after a cycle as long as we train smart. By the way, I'm 6'5" and 260lbs (I'm really fat right now @25% bf). So assuming that I get down to around 10% bf, I could in theory gain 20lbs of muscle and still weigh the same 260lbs. I am working hard and using AS to help me reach my genetic potential.
 
creatine

so why do u guys think that creatine causes permanent gains? seems like it's water in the beginning but in the long run the gains are keepers....
 
I am a realist about this issue. I don't expect to keep a single pound once I stay off long enough.

With that said, I think the guys that keep those big arms or shoulders such as Arnold, went down the GH path.

My whole outlook is to enjoy this while I can. Nothing lasts forever. Why sweat it?
 
Big Johnson said:
I disagree with your conclusions. Based on personal experience, AS use changes a person's genetic "spot" permanently.
Click to expand...

Huckleberry Finnaplex made a good post on this.

AAS can change a persons genetic limit (making higher might I add).

Ill go find it. :)
 
Proof of A/S far reaching genetic potential by Huck Finn

Alright,I constantly hear the question,"Do all your gains eventually diminish once you've discontinued anabolics for good?"Or"You won't be able to keep those gains long term,at least not anywhere past your natural genetic potential"...The following study lends credence to alterations in GENETICS from anabolic administration,and these,for the most part,are PERMANENT physiological adaptations that will set one BEYOND their natural potential.Evidence is pointing towards increases in myonucleic populations and satellite cell activation into the mainframe.Satellite cells are basically 'dormant' muscle cells,that usually lie outside of the main skeletal network,and for the most part will never be used or activated.The use of A/S triggers these cells into activation and incorporates them into the striated main-frame.Increases in myonuclei(skeletal muscle nuclei)equates to a permanently enhanced ability to process proteins to further anabolism...Enjoy my brotha's...


Effects of anabolic steroids on the muscle cells of strength-trained athletes.
Kadi F, Eriksson A, Holmner S, Thornell LE
Med Sci Sports Exerc 1999 Nov 31:1528-34

Med Sci Sports Exerc . Volume 31 . Issue 11
VIEW

Abstract
PURPOSE: Athletes who use anabolic steroids get larger and stronger muscles. How this is reflected at the level of the muscle fibers has not yet been established and was the topic of this investigation. METHODS: Muscle biopsies were obtained from the trapezius muscles of high-level power lifters who have reported the use of anabolic steroids in high doses for several years and from high-level power lifters who have never used these drugs. Enzyme-immunohistochemical investigation was performed to assess muscle fiber types, fiber area, myonuclear number, frequency of satellite cells, and fibers expressing developmental protein isoforms. RESULTS: The overall muscle fiber composition was the same in both groups. The mean area for each fiber type in the reported steroid users was larger than that in the nonsteroid users (P < 0.05). The number of myonuclei and the proportion of central nuclei were also significantly higher in the reported steroid users (P < 0.05). Likewise, the frequency of fibers expressing developmental protein isoforms was significantly higher in the reported steroid users group (P < 0.05). CONCLUSION: Intake of anabolic steroids and strength-training induce an increase in muscle size by both hypertrophy and the formation of new muscle fibers. We propose that activation of satellite cells is a key process and is enhanced by the steroid use. The incorporation of the satellite cells into preexisting fibers to maintain a constant nuclear to cytoplasmic ratio seems to be a fundamental mechanism for muscle fiber growth. Although all the subjects in this study have the same level of performance, the possibility of genetic differences between the two groups cannot be completely excluded.
 
I agree with with alot of the things said in this thread, esp with the posts about proper PCT habits and regimens and I am not aiming this towards anyone in this thread BUT most people need to realize that after you complete a cycle and gain whatever it is that you gain, you MUST maintain it FOREVER (read: FOREVER, thats provided you are under your genetic limit, allowing room for additional muscle growth) with proper stimulus (training, heavy training that is) and sufficient calories (usually 12-15 per pound of LBM). What incentive would the body have to keep additional LBM if you aren't providing for it? Especially when that extra weight is active, energy consuming muscle? Zilch, zero, nada thats what. Its fucking angers me beyond belief when "abercrombie" models juice casually and then go back to their shitty eating and training habits and expect to keep their gains......just not going to happen. Juice or no juice, BBing is a lifelong process, some people have it easier with their god given genetics while others have to work HARDER.....but nowhere does it say that both types can't gain significant amounts of LBM (genetics determine muscle SHAPE NOT SIZE).....people who say "my genetics won't allow it" are delusional.....your laziness and stupidity won't allow it! Why run a cycle or even begin working out in the first place if you plan to drop the ball later on? Don't waste your time and money. Muscle is muscle (provided it is in fact under your genetic limit) the body cannot differentiate AAS gained muscle from naturally gained muscle, the deciding factor here is how well you try and keep it! Its simple really, natty or not, stop training and eating seriously and you WILL lose your gains! Just had to vent!
 
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BTW thats a great study psychedout! Should make some heads turn! Would give some K but gotta spread it around first.
 
I have to say after a 4-5 cycles, I beleive that one will always shrink back down no matter what. This is especially true after my last bulker. It's real world reality. And i'm not against AAS now or re-born on the issue. Just presenting facts. I will use AAS to look hard in the summer, but bulking cycles are a thing of the past for me. All things considered on the issue, you must ask yourself, beyond the health concerns (POSSIBLE ones I should say), why put out the money? It's a bad investment.
 
I may not have lived up to my genetic potential yet at 6' 210 but IMO I already passed it as my body used to want to stay around 180lbs. I have been on five cycles but have taken up to 7 months off in between. Everytime about 3 weeks after I come off I continue to get stronger and bigger. I'm on HRT so I don't have to worry too much about PCT but I don't understand that while being an ectomorph I'm still growing at a pretty steady rate. I actually prefer just to train on the 200mgs of test I receive every other week. I don't get the extremely fast strength and size gains while on but just being on HRT I make gains a lot faster than someone without it.

IMO HRT works great but I will say that it sucks to have to be dependent on something for the rest of your life. I must say that I am very happy in that I only lose a few pounds of water weight when I come off a cycle, everything else just stays put while I continue to build on top of it while off.

What I'm getting at is that I feel that as long as I'm on HRT and keep diet and training in check, that I won't lose what I've got. I also know a few guys that juiced and lifted heavy years ago and fell out of the game and stopped training and eating right and IMO they are STILL bigger than they would have been without AAS and thats with shitty training to no training and poor diet, so I imagine that they would look a lot better if they had stuck with it. Sorry for rambling I'm so tired that I'm delirious.
 
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Huck had a good post about changing your genetic limit with AAS. I think this is very true in regards to a realistic weight. If your 5'10 260 lbs ripped and expect to maintain that for years gear free, good luck! But if you end up being around 200-205 ripped, that is a very keepable weight. I'd be happy at 205-210 at 6% year round other than for contests.
 
Im with Brickgirl,I feel how much you hold,as long as your not to far over the genetic limit,is determined on how long you are on maintaining those higher test levels,Im actually putting this theory to test as I plan on doing a few 4-5month cycles over the next year or so with a hardy pct regimen
 
I think the longer you hold the size when "on", the easier it is to keep when you are off. I bridge when off, but am able to hold my size, which is 250lbs at around 12% bodyfat, with only 10-20mg of var. And thats around 50-60lbs more than I weighed naturally
 
In 1999, I did an 8 week cycle of Winstrol 50mg/eod.

I was 22 and it was my first cycle. I had over eight years of weight training experience at that point.

My bench press went from 225lbs x 3 reps, to 225lbs x 10 reps after the eight weeks.

I trained chest like a madman before juicing, but was only able to bench the miniscule weight I have previously listed.

Following my Winstrol Cycle, I didn't juice for four years.

However, I could always bench 225lbs x 10 reps -- significantly more than my pre-steroid days.

My weight returned to pre-steroid levels, but my strength was always increased.

For me, steroids have permanently increased my overall strength to a level which wasn't possible previously.
 
myasshurts said:
This is my first visit to this site in a while. I did 1 cycle well over a year ago. I put on about 20 pounds of LBM and was very pleased with myself. I had the reassurances of people online and a few athletes I know that I would keep most of it. I did for a while. 4 months post cycle I was hanging around +15. I kept eating well and working out and eating well. In the time that has passed, I have very gradually gone back to about +3, where I would easily be now if I hadn't done that cycle. The drop was so gradual that I didn't really notice it. I now firmly believe that AS gains are not maintable in the long run, unless you were very small to begin with. Your body will eventually revert to normal without the occassional boost. All you people that talk on here about "gains kept" try going 2 years without a cycle and see what you are really keeping. I'm not criticizing anybody, just putting this out there for people that might be considering their 1st. I really don't care at this point. I am very happy with my build and am over the whole get huge thing. My health and stress come way before my muscle size. I have also found that I am much better at grappling/fighting at my natural weight(200) then I was at my juiced weight(220) In case anyone is curious I am 6`1. I have better endurance and coordination, and I am more than strong enough to handle the juice heads. Like I said I really am not criticizing anyone, just throwing out another point of view than what is normally pushed on this site. Take a long term view of what you are doing and see if it is really worth the acne, needles, diet, money, mood swing, legal risk... Best wishes to everybody.
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What do you except if you haven't gone back on in over a year? This is one lesson I have learned - you cannot do just one cycle a year and except to keep everything.
 
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