Wow, this forum is horrible.

[Deleted member 33117]

I've been scanning this forum for a few minutes and I'm in total shock. Most of the people here would do well to read peer review journals, talk to serious bodybuilders to find out what they actually do, and take a few nutrition classes. Most suppliments cost a fortune, and offer very little, if any benefits to you. They are a market ploy to deprive the gullible of their hard-earned $$$. Fish oil, creatine monohydrate (yes the cheap stuff not Cell Tech), ephedra and some vitamins have benefits, but these prohormones, exotic amino-acid mixes, special creatine blends and such that you guys are wracking your brians trying to get info on are a waste of time.

I have always considered EF to be a source for the sharing of information and truth. What I'm seeing here, with the exception of a few threads, is very much the oposite. Its rather shocking to say the least. Could I get a few of the better known gurus and experts to back me on this?

 

[mrzap]

I think it does boil down to a solid proven supplement core of whey, creatine, and EFA's. All this other stuff is speculative.

I did see amazing results on PH's though so you can knock it all you want. I saw results and no harmful sides.

Got any peer review journals you can link up?

 

[Deleted member 33117]

NO, I have access to peer reviews at the university library. There is alot of info out there show some problems with PH's lately. Alot of them have dianabol in them. LoL That could account for the gains some people claim onthem, but they are paying ALOT more their dbol than they would on the black market. The trent of mixing illegal steroids into suppliments is coming back into popularity. It is the only way to make their crap effective.

There is alot of research showing calcium to have some positive fat burning and muscle building benefits, so calcium tablets could be added to the list of effective one's. Though, the results are more pronouced if dairy products are used rather than pills, so it goes back to the usual advice from most gurus: real food beast most suppliments hands down. Glutamine, arganine, CLA and alot of the other stuff out, is showing nothing positive as of yet.

 

[Sir Foxx]

Name one PH that has Dianabol in it. One.

 

[mrzap]

CLA is bs imo. Glutamine maybe in theory...

 

[ohashi]

CLA is bs imo.

And this wonderful opinion is based on your unlimited knowledge of the subject, which you are about to impart upon us?

 

[BlkWS6]

BBF: I normally like to read your posts in the Training forum, but dont you think this one is kinda useless? It would be much cooler to see you intervene in some of these threads you would consider "bs" and give us your point of view on the matter rather then just start a blanket statement "this forums sucks" thread. Oh yeah, and your point of view with some sort of evidence to back it up of course. Not a flame bro, but just a suggestion that I think would be more beneficial to everyone.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

The theory behind glutamine is good, until viewed under closer examination. When you buy l-glutamine it is a free amino acid. The cells of the intestine love glutamine and will readily absorbe it as fuel. WHen you take in L-glutamine, the intestine walls absorb and use 95% of it for fuel, leaving a very small amount to enter the bloodstream. Now, peptide bonded glutamine is on the market, because the absorbsion rate into the bloodstream is 10 time that of the free amino acid. Sounds great, but this stuff is pricey. What does peptide bonded mean? It means it isn't free, and is part of a protien, thus bonded to other amino acids. Glutamine is claimed, truthfully, to be the most abundant amino acid in muscle tissue. Mean, there is a great deal of peptide bonded glutamine in a 16 oz steak. Most serious bodybuilders are going to be eating a MINIMUM of 2 ibs of meat a day, though 4-6 is more common for some of us. There are only 20 amino acids. So if a ibs of lean meat has roughly 100 grams of protien, and glutamine is more abundant that any other amino acid, it probably makes up roughtly 10% of that protien. That would be 10 grams of peptide bonded glutamine in each ibs, and at 2+ ibs a day, that would mean one is eating 20+ grams of this high priced suppliment every day.

 

[ZKaudio]

This forum used to be a lot faster and have better responses. Mr. X. was a huge asset as well and he doesn't post here quite as often now. Seems like every forum except for chat has slowed down... chat is still killin it though wewt wewt.

 

[mrzap]

And this wonderful opinion is based on your unlimited knowledge of the subject, which you are about to impart upon us?

I have used it twice both at the recommended and doubled dosages with no noticable improvement. Therefore, in my opinion, it sucks.

All the studies in its effectiveness in humans that I have seen are inconclusive.

Do what you want though

 

[Deleted member 33117]

I have used it twice both at the recommended and doubled dosages with no noticable improvement. Therefore, in my opinion, it sucks.

All the studies in its effectiveness in humans that I have seen are inconclusive.

Do what you want though

The studies are not inconclusive per se. They simply show that thus far no test group has seen an improvement in strength gains or muscle mass from using it over what the control group gained. In other words... they are concluding that until we get some results from studies showing otherwise, we must conclude it doesn't have much effect.

 

[DANABOLIC55]

I think this shows just how powerful supp. advertising really is. Every time I read a mag and see a cool looking ad. w/ one of the pros in it with all of the cool graphics and colors, my dumb meter spikes and I think damn! I gotta try that.
Then, all too quickly I come back down to reality. We are all such visual creatures and they play this to a "T". Todays culture is so roid mis-informed and fearful it's really pitiful. All of this we know already though. I try to pump this site as much as possible and do my part to spread the "good word(s)"

 

[d3track]

BodyBy.....

why should we not wrack our brains trying to get info on these supplements? If you are so big on research you should realize that the search for knowlege has no limits. There is research on most of the ingrediants in the supplements as well as on aas. And yes, I have a college degree, and yes I know my way around a libray, the campus is 1/4 mile from my house.
If we don't do the research, how are we going to find things that work? look at how long it took for creatine to catch on. how long were people eating only liver tablets and whole milk before protien poweders becaome popular?
I say everyone keep doing research, share experiences. Otherwise we will not make progress.
Not trying to flame you, but I am not impressed with your self promotion, trying to tell others that they don't know anything and you have all the answers.
You have some great information, please share it, don't just flame others who are not as comfortable in the library as you.
I would just rather hear positive info from you, not just bashing

peace

 

[DANABOLIC55]

d3...

It is the supps company's job to report and research this stuff truthfully. Not ours. That's why AF's stuff is so good. It's created & researched by REAL slammers before it's released. Not some suit w/ a decent yet un-tested hypothesis. Not flammin you either. Some people react differently to different items & it takes self testing-to a degree. However, i think most here agree that the claims these companies make are ridiculous and have only one motive..
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[d3track]

I agree
But why should we not learn about what we are putting into our bodies?
there was a time when all of us did not know much

just dont like the negativity

off the gym

QUAD DAY!

 

[Liftbig]

i agree with bodybyfinaplix. ive been done wasting my time with all the supplement bs. ive tried alot of supplements, and consequently wasted ALOT of money. these are the only supplements that are worth buying imo, becuase they have worked for me...

multivitamin
vitamins in general
bcaas
Creatine- like cell tech(way over priced but i like it, i use a cheaper brand called hyper cell 2, its the same exact thing, just not the high priced labeling bullshit)
more vitamins.
protien powder(although i consider this food)
zma(this is just vitamins really)
flax oils, fish oils, etc

thats it.

if you notice the majority of these are really food products if you think about it. so when looking for supplements anything that is pretty much food is gonna be you best bet. anything else is pretty much a waste of money.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

i agree with bodybyfinaplix. ive been done wasting my time with all the supplement bs. ive tried alot of supplements, and consequently wasted ALOT of money. these are the only supplements that are worth buying imo, becuase they have worked for me...

multivitamin
vitamins in general
bcaas
Creatine- like cell tech(way over priced but i like it, i use a cheaper brand called hyper cell 2, its the same exact thing, just not the high priced labeling bullshit)
more vitamins.
protien powder(although i consider this food)
zma(this is just vitamins really)
flax oils, fish oils, etc

thats it.

if you notice the majority of these are really food products if you think about it. so when looking for supplements anything that is pretty much food is gonna be you best bet. anything else is pretty much a waste of money.

Very well said.

D3t, as liftbig can attest because he has clearly gone through the same thing I have, there is a reason I have little positive to say on this topic. I've wasted alot of time, and money buying and researching suppliments, that when the actual scientific evidence is looked at closely are, for lack a better explination, sugar pills and snake oil. Most of the claims of the suppliemnt industry are so outlandish, and based on nothing more that poorly thought out theories on how they might benefit bodybuilders. The few that do work can usually be obtained cheaper just by eating foods that are rich in them. How can I say anything positive when I see products like myostatin-inhibitors and and new, totally unscientific creatine transport systems come out on the market every day,that are not only useless, but would cost me more money to use that my current steroid stack. Then I come on a forum like this one for the first time and see 18 and 19 year old kids throwing their money away because some company has tricked them into buying these things, and see people proclaiming them as beneficial. My initial post was one of shock, rather than careful though. I had read about 7 or 8 posts on this forum and was in shock that people on a site such as EF were we try to bring a little bit of truth to the world of bodybuilding. My statements concerning suppliments and the companies that manufacture them are negative, becuase my experiences with them have been negative, and logic and science both tell me these corporations are run by con artists, trying to rob young nieve bodybuilders and atheletes of their hard earned $$$.

 

[Synpax]

I'm afraid I have to discount your entire post on this topic because you go right out and say prohormones are a "waste of time." I would wager many people who use these and get no results aren't using them properly - or might just have the genetics that they don't respond to them.

But for me, 500mg of 1-test a day has had substantial gains after two weeks of use. After the first week, what I could do in the gym substantially increased. I could do what I could not do before. I also get a pump much much more easily. The only side effect is a deeper voice.

And of course, everyone else who has had these types of benefits will also discount your opinions not only on this but on other things where you may know exactly what you are talking about.

 

[krayzfresh]

I have yet to try fish oils. I'm not running any suppliments right now except for the occasional ECA stack which is always a way to go. Other than that I have used Creatine Monohydrate which I know to work and protein powder of course. Everything else is whatevers in the fridge and in the pantry and I'm a pretty built MoFu

 

[Deleted member 33117]

I'm afraid I have to discount your entire post on this topic because you go right out and say prohormones are a "waste of time." I would wager many people who use these and get no results aren't using them properly - or might just have the genetics that they don't respond to them.

But for me, 500mg of 1-test a day has had substantial gains after two weeks of use. After the first week, what I could do in the gym substantially increased. I could do what I could not do before. I also get a pump much much more easily. The only side effect is a deeper voice.

And of course, everyone else who has had these types of benefits will also discount your opinions not only on this but on other things where you may know exactly what you are talking about.

I stand by my statement about prohormones. What does 1-test (a legal anabolic steroid in the US) have to do with this arguement? Prohomrones are steroid "precursers" that may or may not be converted into testosterone or an anabolic steroid by the liver, at different rates in different individuals. Bear in mind that the liver will be most reluctant to allow these compounds to convert to levels that will elevated blood serum levels to a supralogical dose. 1-AD is an example of a prohormone that CAN be converted by the liver into the anabolic steroid 1-testosterone.

Since you use 1-test, bear in mind you are using a weak anabolic steroid, thus are a juicer, a steroid user, not a pro-hormone user. Thus your argument is moot, and totally without merit. I will point out that the $$$ cost to gain ratio on 1-test is not at pronounced as that of many popular steroids, nor are the side effects per mg in the bloodstream less than most other steroids, thus I fail to see the major benefit to using it, other than legality, which can often be worked around with legal loopholes for many steroids.

 

[rnch]

wasn't one of muscletech's PH's tested and found to have traces of AS in it?....acetabolin or somthing like that.............

 

[FunkMasterFlex]

CLa has plent of research behind it....i used it for 6 months and when i stopped i realized it allowed me to maintain 8% or lower BF where as 10% without it. THere are about 15 studies....ill get the links up soon.

 

[E23]

I have used it twice both at the recommended and doubled dosages with no noticable improvement. Therefore, in my opinion, it sucks.

All the studies in its effectiveness in humans that I have seen are inconclusive.

Do what you want though

You have used 30 g of CLA /d, the rec. is 15 g of Tonalin

 

[Nelson Montana]

I've found "supplement heads" to be the most belligerent types on these boards. I think it stems from the fact that they won't use anything illegal, for whatever reason, but they're very informed on the science of supplements, therefore they have strong convictions. Unfortunately, the science is a bunch of horseshit for the most part. But anyone who's commited themself to studying it, doesn't want to admit he's wasted his time.

You can't blame them. All they have is the information from the supp companies and supp gurus. (Hardly unbiased). Having said that, some supps are great, even though I can say with all honestly that 98% of what is sold is garbage, and even some the "winners" like glutamine are a total waste of money. Meanwhile, some of the best stuff is reletively inexpensive yet it's ignored.

 

[fogg88]

I've found "supplement heads" to be the most belligerent types on these boards.

You're joking, right? I've had the 'pleasure' or reading through the flame-fests between you and assorted members over on the anabolics board, and it doesn't get more beligerent than that.

That being said, I gotta' agree with you that aside from a few good supplements, much of what's out there is crapola.

 

[EL GAUCHO]

I second that.
Read my thread on Protein Shakes. I think even those are questionably essential.
Too many bro are reliant on supplements for that extra "edge". The edge they actaully gain is probably not worth the amount spent on supps.
EG

 

[javaguru]

I stand by my statement about prohormones. What does 1-test (a legal anabolic steroid in the US) have to do with this arguement? Prohomrones are steroid "precursers" that may or may not be converted into testosterone or an anabolic steroid by the liver, at different rates in different individuals. Bear in mind that the liver will be most reluctant to allow these compounds to convert to levels that will elevated blood serum levels to a supralogical dose. 1-AD is an example of a prohormone that CAN be converted by the liver into the anabolic steroid 1-testosterone.

Your statement assumes their primary method of action is through conversion. Your argument being based on the theory proposed by supplement companies on how they would benefit a lifter. Which is somewhat contradictory since you tell people to rely on studies for their information. 1-AD user often report superior results orally than 1-test users even though they should have very similar bioavailability. This indicates there is probably some intrinsic anabolic actiom of 1-ad. If you read "Androgens and Anabolics" by Vida et al, 4-androstenediol assayed as 90% as anabolic as testosterone and yet the conversion rate found in an invitro blood study found only a 15% conversion to testosterone.

Likewise, I have yet to year a negative report from anyone using injectable 4-ad. There are plenty of people on transdemal 1-test that love it and have used illegal anabolics. Do a search on animals board or bodybuilding.com.

Since you use 1-test, bear in mind you are using a weak anabolic steroid, thus are a juicer, a steroid user, not a pro-hormone user. Thus your argument is moot, and totally without merit. I will point out that the $$$ cost to gain ratio on 1-test is not at pronounced as that of many popular steroids, nor are the side effects per mg in the bloodstream less than most other steroids, thus I fail to see the major benefit to using it, other than legality, which can often be worked around with legal loopholes for many steroids.

Pro-hormone is just a fancy marketing word for steroid, since they are all steroids by definition. Honestly, Test Cypionate is also a pro hormone because it requires your body to convert it into a usable form, with esterases. 1-test assayed out to be 2x-4x as anabolic as testosterone and much more androgenic, hence the side effects. Its effects and sides are very similar to Tren, I've used both. If by legal loopholes you mean TA then I can tell you it is still just as illegal as buying from an underground lab if used in humans. Therefore, you're one pissed off wife/girlfriend/room mate from going to jail legal loophole or not.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

I've found "supplement heads" to be the most belligerent types on these boards. I think it stems from the fact that they won't use anything illegal, for whatever reason, but they're very informed on the science of supplements, therefore they have strong convictions. Unfortunately, the science is a bunch of horseshit for the most part. But anyone who's commited themself to studying it, doesn't want to admit he's wasted his time.

You can't blame them. All they have is the information from the supp companies and supp gurus. (Hardly unbiased). Having said that, some supps are great, even though I can say with all honestly that 98% of what is sold is garbage, and even some the "winners" like glutamine are a total waste of money. Meanwhile, some of the best stuff is reletively inexpensive yet it's ignored.

Ok, Nelson THIS time we agree, so that makes 3 times. LoL. I fall into a difference category. I've studies this alot, I'm a nutritional science major in school at the moment, and while I wasted a bit of time and money, I can admit that is was a waste, and move on. Again you are correct, the truely effective suppliments are well priced. Creatine monohydrate, fish oil, EFA's, etc are very affordable on any budget.

rnch, I'm not sure about muscletech, but there is a study that was recently done on this, that should be released where alot of popular pro-hormones by major companies were broken down and analyzed. The rumor, form experts who have been allowed to read the info prior to its actually release in peer review journals, is that ALOT of the 1-AD products had a pretty hefty % of their active ingrediants in the form of dianabol. Nice, so people are making gains, of course, but paying WAY too much for their pinkies, and still breaking the law by possessing it, regardless of what type of bottle you have it in. If that were a loophole, I would just store dianabol tabs in a vitamin C bottle to avoid commiting a felony.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

Your statement assumes their primary method of action is through conversion. Your argument being based on the theory proposed by supplement companies on how they would benefit a lifter. Which is somewhat contradictory since you tell people to rely on studies for their information. 1-AD user often report superior results orally than 1-test users even though they should have very similar bioavailability. This indicates there is probably some intrinsic anabolic actiom of 1-ad. If you read "Androgens and Anabolics" by Vida et al, 4-androstenediol assayed as 90% as anabolic as testosterone and yet the conversion rate found in an invitro blood study found only a 15% conversion to testosterone.

Likewise, I have yet to year a negative report from anyone using injectable 4-ad. There are plenty of people on transdemal 1-test that love it and have used illegal anabolics. Do a search on animals board or bodybuilding.com.



Pro-hormone is just a fancy marketing word for steroid, since they are all steroids by definition. Honestly, Test Cypionate is also a pro hormone because it requires your body to convert it into a usable form, with esterases. 1-test assayed out to be 2x-4x as anabolic as testosterone and much more androgenic, hence the side effects. Its effects and sides are very similar to Tren, I've used both. If by legal loopholes you mean TA then I can tell you it is still just as illegal as buying from an underground lab if used in humans. Therefore, you're one pissed off wife/girlfriend/room mate from going to jail legal loophole or not.

1) the definition of a pro-hormone is a steroid precursor that is converted into an active androgen by the liver. So yes, I assume the benefits of a pro-hormone would occur as a result of conversion.

2) testosterone cypionate is not converted by the liver. The cypionate ester that is suspending the testosterone molecule will removed while it is still in the area of injection. It is not a converstion of a hormone precurser (building block) into a useful hormone, it is mearly a removal of an ester that is suspeding it for a slower release into the bloodstream. Two toally seperate things. The removal of the ester will always happen. The conversion of a precurer into an active hormone is more likely to NOT occur with any given molecule of a prohormon.

3) people get good results from 1-test because it is an anabolic steroid. I've never said it wasn't a good drug, only that the $$$ cost to gain ratio sucks.

4) people are getting good results from 1-AD and 4-AD products possibly through a placebo effect, but I think, given the information currently in circulation, that they are getting results because there are illegal and very powerful anabolic steroids in those products that are not suppost to be there.

5) you buy tren from an underground lab? Amatuer. You have now lost your credibility with the hardcore among us. Where I live, the United States, the beef industry has alot of political power, so its an over the counter drug. And very inexpensive. We don't want the price of steaks to do up, now do we?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Well, this is what I'm talking about. Everybody talks about the science of pro-hormones when all you have to do is say, they're lousy steroids. And once you inject them, you're breaking the law, so why not use real gear? I'll never understand that.

BB.com is the perfect example of sophmoric expertise. They're essentially a bunch of kids who look to supplement salesman for their information. The resedent steroid expert (Big Cat) never did steroids. The resident PH expert (Dante) doesn't use PH's. And the main guy (1fast400) admits he doesn't even lift weights. Real presdigious bunch over there.

Sure, I've had my flamefests on the anabolic board, but except for one or two assholes, at least they know what they're talking about and will offer a reasonable retort. The people at BB.co are just a little clique that want to stick their head in the sand and refuse to listen to anyone outside their little community. That board is the biggest joke on the net.


Good supps? Well, the ingredients I've been advocating for years are the ones I suggested using in the Protein Factory line. But they have a specific purpose. There are other good supps like MSM, Glucosmaine,vinpocitine, lycopene, creatine, lecithin...plenty that are worthwhile. But again, most are nothing but pure scams.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

Well, this is what I'm talking about. Everybody talks about the science of pro-hormones when all you have to do is say, they're lousy steroids. And once you inject them, you're breaking the law, so why not use real gear? I'll never understand that.

BB.com is the perfect example of sophmoric expertise. They're essentially a bunch of kids who look to supplement salesman for their information. The resedent steroid expert (Big Cat) never did steroids. The resident PH expert (Dante) doesn't use PH's. And the main guy (1fast400) admits he doesn't even lift weights. Real presdigious bunch over there.

Sure, I've had my flamefests on the anabolic board, but except for one or two assholes, at least they know what they're talking about and will offer a reasonable retort. The people at BB.co are just a little clique that want to stick their head in the sand and refuse to listen to anyone outside their little community. That board is the biggest joke on the net.


Good supps? Well, the ingredients I've been advocating for years are the ones I suggested using in the Protein Factory line. But they have a specific purpose. There are other good supps like MSM, Glucosmaine,vinpocitine, lycopene, creatine, lecithin...plenty that are worthwhile. But again, most are nothing but pure scams.

So true Nelson. At least those who have done a great deal of research on steroids have an understanding of how the body regulates the production and disposal of androgens, as well as the difficulty of developing in impressive physique even with the ad of a number of potent drugs. This also gives us some insight into the problems associated with actually trying to use prohormones for the purpose of building muscle mass. Pro-hormone users who read alot (mostly biased information) often do not even understand the fundiments of this area or what the compounds they are using actually are. Conversion rates in vitro are totally useless inside a human body attempting to maintain homostatsis. Those conversion rates may be close if someone has a low testerone level, but once one's blood serum testosterone levels approach, and especially once they exceed, what is normal for that individual, that rate will rapidly begin to fall off. Furthermore, the androgens that inter the bloodstream via the use of these compounds will suppress the htpa. This is why anything less than supralogical doses of these compounds will yield nothing of benefit. The conversion into, or even introduction in the case of anabolic steroids (including 1-test) are not in addition too one's existing testosterone, but rather it replaces it. And once the level of androgens pressent from this conversion process begins to exceed that of one's normal production, the conversion process will quickly come to a halt. The body will maintain homostatis.

Nelson, perhaps you could shed some more light on this? I really do NOT wish to type a 10 page post on the problem with this process.

 

[Nelson Montana]

BBF: YOu pretty much said it all. The only effect you can possible get from PH's is the increase in estrogen -- and no one wants to believe that. But e will cause bloat (i.e."growth") and an increase in libido. So the users THINK it's working. Then when you tell them the reality of the situation they get all pissy and start throwing technical data at you.

Look, at one time I was like a lot of these so called experts. I had plenty of book knowledge but I still looed like crap after 20 years of training. Then I realized it isn't how much you know, but what you know that WORKS that counts. That's when I trasformed my physique at age 38, drug free-- pro-hormone free.

And yes, until you do steroids, you're just going by what the "book" says, but you have no idea what is accurate or not. You have to do anything to fully understand it. Sure, the coach doesn't have to be as good as the player in order to coach him. But he has to have played the game.

 

[javaguru]

1) the definition of a pro-hormone is a steroid precursor that is converted into an active androgen by the liver. So yes, I assume the benefits of a pro-hormone would occur as a result of conversion.

Actually, the word pro means 'before', look it up in the dictionary, which simply means it's the before hormone. Also, hormones are metabolized in many other places than the liver. For example, testosterone is a pro hormone for DHT which is synthesized in the target tissues(prostate). You also missed the point which is that either conversion is extremely high and the enzyme limitation is small or there is intrinsic anabolic activity. The fact 4-androstenediol grew muscle tissue to 95% the size of an equal dose of testosterone in the rat levator ani assay indicates one of these two are the most likely case.

2) testosterone cypionate is not converted by the liver. The cypionate ester that is suspending the testosterone molecule will removed while it is still in the area of injection. It is not a converstion of a hormone precurser (building block) into a useful hormone, it is mearly a removal of an ester that is suspeding it for a slower release into the bloodstream. Two toally seperate things. The removal of the ester will always happen. The conversion of a precurer into an active hormone is more likely to NOT occur with any given molecule of a prohormon.

see above

3) people get good results from 1-test because it is an anabolic steroid. I've never said it wasn't a good drug, only that the $$$ cost to gain ratio sucks.

4) people are getting good results from 1-AD and 4-AD products possibly through a placebo effect, but I think, given the information currently in circulation, that they are getting results because there are illegal and very powerful anabolic steroids in those products that are not suppost to be there.

I haven't seen any evidence of any significant amount of any type of illegal contamination. I know there were issues with some initial batches quite a while ago but that was corrected very quickly, and it was unmodified versions of drugs which have terrible oral bioavailability. If you're platinum you can do a search on my injectable 4-ad cycle experiment. I was unexpectedly surprised at its effectiveness. There was no possibility of placebo as I was already well past my genetic potential when I did the experiment, which is why it was so surprising. My first cycle was in the early 90's and I've experimented with quite a few drugs over the years, I know what it feels like. Likewise, there are numerous users on animals board proclaiming its effectiveness. One person had their test levels checked over a week after their last injection of 4-ad and they were almost twice high normal, and that's with animals oil and no ester kit.

5) you buy tren from an underground lab? Amatuer. You have now lost your credibility with the hardcore among us. Where I live, the United States, the beef industry has alot of political power, so its an over the counter drug. And very inexpensive. We don't want the price of steaks to do up, now do we?

Please read my post, at no time did I state that I purchased TA from an underground lab, for the record I haven't. Allow me to state my point again. Once converted from a kit into usable form its presence with syringes would be enough to convict you just as if you bought a bottle from an underground lab. I have enough chemistry knowledge to convert my own without a kit. The anabolic steroid control act only exempts it for use in animals. 4-AD converted to an injectable form does not carry the same consequences. I don't care how much 4-ad you have in your possession, under the current laws you'll never be facing a felony distribution charge carrying a minimum five year prison sentence.

 

[Synpax]

"Since you use 1-test, bear in mind you are using a weak anabolic steroid, thus are a juicer, a steroid user, not a pro-hormone user. Thus your argument is moot, and totally without merit."

Then why was my question about 1-test earlier that I put on the steriod moved from the steriod board to this one? Why do the places I shop for it list it as a "pro-hormone"? Why do so many other people consider 1-test a pro-hormone?

BTW - I am paying $0.057 (US) per 100mg. I've talked to others who have used full cycles and are paying 1300-1500 for their 12 week stuff. Granted, they get more gains, but are facing greater side effects ANd are breaking the law (in the US).

 

[Deleted member 33117]

"Since you use 1-test, bear in mind you are using a weak anabolic steroid, thus are a juicer, a steroid user, not a pro-hormone user. Thus your argument is moot, and totally without merit."

Then why was my question about 1-test earlier that I put on the steriod moved from the steriod board to this one? Why do the places I shop for it list it as a "pro-hormone"? Why do so many other people consider 1-test a pro-hormone?

BTW - I am paying $0.057 (US) per 100mg. I've talked to others who have used full cycles and are paying 1300-1500 for their 12 week stuff. Granted, they get more gains, but are facing greater side effects ANd are breaking the law (in the US).

What uneducated people consider a compound to be, has not bearing on what it is. So if a group of high school drops outs start declaring the that German Shepherds are not dogs, but acutally a bread of hairy pigs shall we just agree with them, and put this in zoology books? 1-test is not a prohormone, and I don't even seen the resembalance.

1) any jackass who pays $1300 for a 12 week cycles that doesn't involve growth-hormone, is quite gullible and really, I could care less what they do. Their willness to pay 4 to 5 times what something is actually worth has no bearing what course of action more intelligent people should take in their own endevors.

2) I use fairly hefty doses of anabolic steroids and get very few side effects. This is because I know what I am doing. We are talking about relative levels of free testosterone. Increase your dose to 1-test to the point where your serum testosterone levels are as high as mine, and I suspect you will get more side effects than I do, and pay more $$$. We are talking about an isssue of dosage now. Because you are using a lower dose and making smaller gains, does not make 1-test a lower side effect or most cost effective drug. By that same tolken, I could reduce my doses of anabolics to the point where my relative hormone levels were on par with yorus from using 1-test and would probably pay less money per month of my cycle than a user of 1-test.

3) legally is only an issue because of corrupt and/or misguided individuals who push such laws through. For some of us, we will do our best to find loopholes or avoid being caught in order to achieve our dreams. If currently pending legislation is passed, your 1-test AND prohormones will be just as illegal, if not more so. I will still be able to purchase some of mine legally. You will not, and will have to throw out what you have stored up to avoid being a felon. When that happens, and I believe it more likely than not that these laws will be passed, will you then switch to trenbolone or dianbol?

 

[javaguru]

The term "pro hormone" is simply a marketing term used by companies since the introduction of androstenedione. You can't call it a steroid, even though it technically is a steroid, as it would be associated with illegal steroids and that's bad for marketing. It also described the means by which supplement companies believed it acted, by being converted to an illegal steroid in the human body. However, many illegal steroids are also pro hormones because they convert to other hormones in the human body. For example, Testosterone is the pro hormone for DHT and estrogen. 1-test is not a "pro hormone" even under the supplement copmpany definition because it does not require conversion for its method of action. However, in the case of 4-androstenediol , it appears to be both a pro hormone to testosterone and have intrinsic anabolic activity or it doesn't suffer from much of an enzyme conversion limitation.

 

[javaguru]

bump

 

[Sir Foxx]

BodyBy,

Your unfounded accucsations about 1-AD containing Dianabol should be taken up with Patrick Arnold. Since its his company that makes it, I'm sure Patrick would love to discuss your slanderous lies.

 

[lordValmont]

Are we talking glutamine? or peptides. The reason I ask is because protein factory sells it.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

BodyBy,

Your unfounded accucsations about 1-AD containing Dianabol should be taken up with Patrick Arnold. Since its his company that makes it, I'm sure Patrick would love to discuss your slanderous lies.

Well, when the research is published, he can take it up with the scientist who did the lab work. Although I don't think his suit would go over very well with the judge. I'm only passing on information that I've heard from a source I consider to be a reliable one. In the mean time, I'm going to sit back and see what becomes of this.

 

[javaguru]

Slander is spoken, libel is printed.