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Women and Test Boosters
- Thread starter ryce
- Start date
WarLobo said:
but they do produce right?
And I think any minor improvement may make a difference in women that we don't see in men.
Waiting for more inputs.....
Thing is, they happen to work in real world from dozens of experiences.
Also WAR, It depends on what you define by work......
WarLobo said:
Hi War!!
Thanks for taking the time to post. I am really trying to catch up on many things and since I am not as competent as you ( well generally that's a male X female issue) I fall behind the posts.
There is a similar topic been discussed at elite. please take a look.
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=174034
I will post a complete response ASAP.
The two products you mentioned (tibulus and Humanovar) are pretty unlikely to have any positive effect on female test production unless you have an actual deficiency in DHEA....in which case I suspect it would be cheaper to just take DHEA!
As far as I can tell from the marketing guff, you can get the same benefits of Humanovar from just eating raw, fertilized chicken eggs.
As far as I can tell from the marketing guff, you can get the same benefits of Humanovar from just eating raw, fertilized chicken eggs.
MS said:
Well that's your opinion but news are that they DO work in the real world whether you like it or not.
I think it is a valid point that DHEA deficiency may imply in major benefit since all women that had the most surprising results were the ones with 20% or More BF. I think 23% or more would even reflect actually more accurate numbers. I have no experience with young women( all subjects I know that tried trib. and Humanovar) and DHEA so I can NOT "suspect" anything.
Regarding eating raw eggs and getting the same benefits that Humanovar MAY provide is something that someone with your intelligence might say only in the Joke's board or if you intentionally want to down play the product. You may get salmonella though
WarLobo said:
I am trying to gather some of my anedoctal data and will put it here.
for more "bonafide" replies on the subject check the supp. board.
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=174034
"Well that's your opinion but news are that they DO work in the real world whether you like it or not. "
It's NOT my opinion, it's a fact that supplementing DHEA (or tribulus which effectively does the same thing) will NOT help increase your test production UNLESS you are actually deficient in DHEA. If you suspect this is your case, then please get a a blood test from your doc to test your DHEAS levels first. Why waste money on expensive supps that 99% of young, healthy women don't need and won't benefit from. BTW the same applies to young males. If you are over 40 years old, then you are more likely to get some benefit, but again it is cheaper an more reliable to just take DHEA (or test if that's what you want floating around in your body rather than estrogen).
" Regarding eating raw eggs and getting the same benefits that Humanovar MAY provide is something that someone with
your intelligence might say only in the Joke's board or if you intentionally want to down play the product. You may get
salmonella though"
This is not a joke. Our ancestors no doubt got a nice androgenic boost from finding a nest of some poor birds eggs and scoffing the whole lot (raw) in one sitting. It is sad how far human nutrition has wandered from what was once healthy and natural. The salmonella issue is really just another case where you should be very careful about the source, age and quality of you food stuff. Eggs are fantastic food, and cooking them destroys many of the best aspects of them (such as the omega 3 fats you would get from free-range, green fed chickens, biotin etc...). But my real beef is that so many people will rely on anecdotal info when there is a TOTAL lack of ANY scientific, peer reviewed info on some new gimmicky product out of Eastern Europe. So please don't bother enlightening me with people's reports of great results. I've been around long enough to remember boron, HMB, androstenedione and a host of other supps that were heavliy marketed as the "bees knees" and a LOT of people took them and reported great results. It's called the placebo effect and I suggest you read up on it if you're not familiar with it. If and when the company that markets humanovar wishes to share all of their research data with the rest of the scientific world so that we can evaluate it's legitimacy, then get back to me. Right now all they will tell us it that it contains "oligopeptides". Ummmm, almost all protein contains oligopeptides, and those that don't are soon broken down to oligopeptides via digestion.
Anyway, that link you gave was for a discussion on pro-hormones other than tribulus or Humanovar, so I'm not sure what your question is, or what kind of answer you're expecting from us??
For the record, the placebo effect can be VERY strong, so if you REALLY believe you will get great results from the newest and hottest supp on the market, then you should take it because chances are it WILL work if you believe hard enough.
It's NOT my opinion, it's a fact that supplementing DHEA (or tribulus which effectively does the same thing) will NOT help increase your test production UNLESS you are actually deficient in DHEA. If you suspect this is your case, then please get a a blood test from your doc to test your DHEAS levels first. Why waste money on expensive supps that 99% of young, healthy women don't need and won't benefit from. BTW the same applies to young males. If you are over 40 years old, then you are more likely to get some benefit, but again it is cheaper an more reliable to just take DHEA (or test if that's what you want floating around in your body rather than estrogen).
" Regarding eating raw eggs and getting the same benefits that Humanovar MAY provide is something that someone with
your intelligence might say only in the Joke's board or if you intentionally want to down play the product. You may get
salmonella though"
This is not a joke. Our ancestors no doubt got a nice androgenic boost from finding a nest of some poor birds eggs and scoffing the whole lot (raw) in one sitting. It is sad how far human nutrition has wandered from what was once healthy and natural. The salmonella issue is really just another case where you should be very careful about the source, age and quality of you food stuff. Eggs are fantastic food, and cooking them destroys many of the best aspects of them (such as the omega 3 fats you would get from free-range, green fed chickens, biotin etc...). But my real beef is that so many people will rely on anecdotal info when there is a TOTAL lack of ANY scientific, peer reviewed info on some new gimmicky product out of Eastern Europe. So please don't bother enlightening me with people's reports of great results. I've been around long enough to remember boron, HMB, androstenedione and a host of other supps that were heavliy marketed as the "bees knees" and a LOT of people took them and reported great results. It's called the placebo effect and I suggest you read up on it if you're not familiar with it. If and when the company that markets humanovar wishes to share all of their research data with the rest of the scientific world so that we can evaluate it's legitimacy, then get back to me. Right now all they will tell us it that it contains "oligopeptides". Ummmm, almost all protein contains oligopeptides, and those that don't are soon broken down to oligopeptides via digestion.
Anyway, that link you gave was for a discussion on pro-hormones other than tribulus or Humanovar, so I'm not sure what your question is, or what kind of answer you're expecting from us??
For the record, the placebo effect can be VERY strong, so if you REALLY believe you will get great results from the newest and hottest supp on the market, then you should take it because chances are it WILL work if you believe hard enough.
And better yet, can back it up.
To be more open-minded about this topic, I will admit that I have never used either supplement. But why would I? Honestly, and I'm trying to be helpful here ryce, it is a supplement that I cannot find ANY scientific backing for (or against). This doesn't mean it's no good, but "a fool and her money are soon parted". Maybe if they could be a *little* more specific about exactly what they are selling you and how they have shown it to be anabolic in humans, then we could have a decent conversation on it's merits.....
Steroidal saponins from Tribulus have never been shown to increase Test levels in normal young males, and if they have any impact at all on women (at very high doses not found in commercial supplements) it is to increase estrogen and ovulation, and insignificantly increase test levels. Of course, if you have an imbalance of estrogen (deficiency in particular) then you may notice improvements in LBM, libido, etc... by increasing estrogen to normal female levels. But don't kid yourself that women who report these side effects are experiencing a 'testosterone anabolic boost'. Like wise, high doses of purified extracts may be mildly vasodilatory, which can improve erectile dysfunction in males in a similar way that viagra does. Again this does not mean that test levels have gone up anymore than taking viagra increases test levels.
Steroidal saponins from Tribulus have never been shown to increase Test levels in normal young males, and if they have any impact at all on women (at very high doses not found in commercial supplements) it is to increase estrogen and ovulation, and insignificantly increase test levels. Of course, if you have an imbalance of estrogen (deficiency in particular) then you may notice improvements in LBM, libido, etc... by increasing estrogen to normal female levels. But don't kid yourself that women who report these side effects are experiencing a 'testosterone anabolic boost'. Like wise, high doses of purified extracts may be mildly vasodilatory, which can improve erectile dysfunction in males in a similar way that viagra does. Again this does not mean that test levels have gone up anymore than taking viagra increases test levels.
MS said:
I know you are a nice person MS but I gotta address the fact that you are twisting things a little bit.
1-"It's NOT my opinion, it's a fact that supplementing DHEA (or tribulus which effectively does the same thing) will NOT help increase your test production UNLESS you are actually deficient in DHEA"
If you don't post at least ONE Sci. study to back up ( although one study does not bear superior thuth or should be taken as a fact) it is still YOUR OPINION. I at least have some real world experience. Tribex worked with those subjects (women BF 20% plus) not with men. And I could not care less since I don't make a dime for any Tribex 500 biotest sells. I have an opinion about those guys that is far from friendly but that over hyped shit worked (again) from my experience and I was trying to figure out if the same happened to someone (woman, steroid and PH free) on this board. Then you jump in talking bad about something you haven't tried because you feel it is expensive and s%^&. That's off topic.
2- Our ancestors lived well without Internet, cell phones eletricity and Fridge. What's you point? The men that lived before us used to beat the crap out of their wifes (not sure if they had this status quo) and drag her buy the hair. Again, What's you point?
I have been around for mcuh time too to see the evolution of PH into what we have today. products that compare to steroids on a mg to mg basis.
3- It seems also that you have not been around so much or maybe just can't see thru. Patrick Arnold, the guy who came up with most of all PH and know such a great deal about hormones and so on is posting on the same subject on the supp. boards but again all you can see there might be some idiot like me and Pat "trying to enlight" you and other people.
4- People that market and sell PH don't want to have scientific studies proving it works cause it will be taken out of the market if it does so. Can't you see this?
OFF TOPIC- Also you mention HMB. That you have been in the game for so long and blah blah. Maybe EAS and BP fooled you into "feels like deca" statements and you are so jaded that denies all other benefits it might have. I tried HMB and felt ZERO other people liked. SO?? It's still useful for many people and news are: THERE ARE FAVORABLE SCI. STUDIES ABOUT HMB!! Wheter we like it or no.
Here is the one fresh new study. hope you like it. Or find it enlightning
Ann Surg 2002 Sep; 236(3):369-375
Effect of a Specialized Amino Acid Mixture on Human Collagen Deposition.
Williams JZ, Abumrad N, Barbul A.
OBJECTIVE To examine the effect of arginine, beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate
(HMB), and glutamine supplementation on wound collagen accumulation in a
double-blind, randomized study.
SUMMARY BACKGROUND DATA Control of wound collagen synthesis has been an
elusive goal for clinicians and scientists alike. In many clinical
instances, it is desired to increase collagen deposition as a means of
enhancing wound strength and integrity. Arginine, a semiessential amino
acid, has been shown to increase wound collagen accumulation in rodents and
humans. HMB, a metabolite of leucine, regulates muscle proteolysis in
animals and humans and increases collagen deposition in rodents.
METHODS Thirty-five healthy, nonsmoking human volunteers 70 years or older
were enrolled and underwent subcutaneous implantation of two small, sterile
polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) tubes into the deltoid region under strict
aseptic techniques. The tubes were 1 mm in diameter and 6 cm in length with
pore size of 90 to 120 &mgr;m to allow optimal ingrowth of fibroblasts and
the deposition of matrix. Eighteen volunteers (mean age 75.4 years; 2 men, 16
women) were randomized to receive daily supplementation of 14 g arginine, 3
g HMB, and 14 g glutamine (total nitrogen 3.59 g) in two divided doses. The
control group (n = 17; mean age 75.3 years; 6 men, 11 women) received an
isonitrogenous, isocaloric supplementation of nonessential amino acids.
Catheters were removed at 7 and 14 days postimplantation and analyzed for
hydroxyproline (OHP, nmol/cm catheter, an index of collagen accumulation) and
alpha-amino nitrogen (alpha-AN, mmol/cm, an index of total protein
deposition).
RESULTS Supplements were well tolerated, without any reported side effects.
Supplementation with the specialized amino acid mixture led to a significant
rise in plasma arginine and ornithine levels. The specialized amino acid
supplement led to a significant increase in collagen deposition (as
reflected by OHP content) in the PTFE tubes without an effect on total
protein accumulation.
CONCLUSIONS Collagen synthesis is significantly enhanced in healthy elderly
volunteers by the oral administration of a mixture of arginine, HMB, and
glutamine. This provides a safe nutritional means for increasing wound
repair in patients.
------------
Dr Mel C Siff
takniteasy
Banned
Umm, ryce, where is your "anecdotal evidence" to back up your claims and/or opinions? I am very curious to see what you base your claims on.
Sic 'em, MS!
Oh yeah, almost forgot. ryce, when Ms posts her scientific evidence, be prepared to sit and read for ages!
Sic 'em, MS!
Oh yeah, almost forgot. ryce, when Ms posts her scientific evidence, be prepared to sit and read for ages!
SteelWeaver
New member
Muwaaa haaa haaa haaa ha ha ha ha.
This is the ONLY thing that's made me laugh all week!!! Thank you thank you!
Better get out your scientific dictionary, ryce. That, and take a couple of days off work
(Not flaming you - but it may have been better to read the boards a bit longer before slamming down anecdotal evidence like it was the words off the Mount.)
This is the ONLY thing that's made me laugh all week!!! Thank you thank you!
Better get out your scientific dictionary, ryce. That, and take a couple of days off work
(Not flaming you - but it may have been better to read the boards a bit longer before slamming down anecdotal evidence like it was the words off the Mount.)
Please explain what the problem is ryce? Are we talking about PA's latest and greatest Prohormone, or are we talking about tribulus and humanovar? You specifically asked about tribulus and humanovar, so that was what I was addressing. Now you're asking ME to provide you with peer reviewed studies when you can't come up with a single one to support your 'observations' in the real world. I'm not talking about the wound healing properties of a specialized amino acid mixture (which includes HMB) in elderly people. That article has NOTHING to do with gaining or retaining muscle mass in weight training folks. I'm also not saying that there are no health benefits to be gained from taking these supps. A health benefit is not the same as a testosterone boost. I'm talking about the purported ability of tribulus or humanovar to increase testosterone levels in females that are otherwise healthy. On a deeper level, I am also talking about claims that either of these supplements will result in ANY measureable increases in the lean mass or strength of either normal men or women (even though you only asked about their testosterone boosting effects). In other words the marketers would have you believe that you will get steroid-like gains from taking them. However, as I said before, if you have seen enough good results to believe it will work for you then you obviously won't let us talk you out of spending your money on them. Just be aware that there is a good reason for rigorous, peer reviewed research, even if the process is not always perfect.
"2- Our ancestors lived well without Internet, cell phones eletricity and Fridge. What's you point? The men that lived
before us used to beat the crap out of their wifes (not sure if they had this status quo) and drag her buy the hair. Again,
What's you point?"
My point was merely that you should not dismiss the health/anabolic benefits of eating naturally produced free range raw whole eggs. This does NOT mean that there is anything wrong with Humanovar, or even that raw eggs are as good as Humanovar. I was merely observing that the claimed ingredients in humanovar were naturally occuring egg proteins......so why not just eat eggs? Since I have no idea how or what the makers of Humanovar compared their supplement to, I have no way of knowing. That was my only point, and it's not sinister and it's not because I've been burned before.
"People that market and sell PH don't want to have scientific studies proving it works cause it will be taken out of the
market if it does so. Can't you see this?"
That is truly idiotic.
"If you don't post at least ONE Sci. study to back up................"
Whatever.
Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2000 Jun;10(2):208-15
The effects of Tribulus terrestris on body composition and exercise performance in resistance-trained
males.
The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of the herbal preparation Tribulus terrestris (tribulus) on body composition and
exercise performance in resistance-trained males. Fifteen subjects were randomly assigned to a placebo or tribulus (3.21 mg per kg
body weight daily) group. Body weight, body composition, maximal strength, dietary intake, and mood states were determined before
and after an 8-week exercise (periodized resistance training) and supplementation period. There were no changes in body weight,
percentage fat, total body water, dietary intake, or mood states in either group. Muscle endurance (determined by the maximal number
of repetitions at 100-200% of body weight) increased for the bench and leg press exercises in the placebo group (p <.05; bench press
+/-28.4%, leg press +/-28.6%), while the tribulus group experienced an increase in leg press strength only (bench press +/-3.1%, not
significant; leg press +/-28.6%, p <.05). Supplementation with tribulus does not enhance body composition or exercise performance in
resistance-trained males.
"2- Our ancestors lived well without Internet, cell phones eletricity and Fridge. What's you point? The men that lived
before us used to beat the crap out of their wifes (not sure if they had this status quo) and drag her buy the hair. Again,
What's you point?"
My point was merely that you should not dismiss the health/anabolic benefits of eating naturally produced free range raw whole eggs. This does NOT mean that there is anything wrong with Humanovar, or even that raw eggs are as good as Humanovar. I was merely observing that the claimed ingredients in humanovar were naturally occuring egg proteins......so why not just eat eggs? Since I have no idea how or what the makers of Humanovar compared their supplement to, I have no way of knowing. That was my only point, and it's not sinister and it's not because I've been burned before.
"People that market and sell PH don't want to have scientific studies proving it works cause it will be taken out of the
market if it does so. Can't you see this?"
That is truly idiotic.
"If you don't post at least ONE Sci. study to back up................"
Whatever.
Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2000 Jun;10(2):208-15
The effects of Tribulus terrestris on body composition and exercise performance in resistance-trained
males.
The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of the herbal preparation Tribulus terrestris (tribulus) on body composition and
exercise performance in resistance-trained males. Fifteen subjects were randomly assigned to a placebo or tribulus (3.21 mg per kg
body weight daily) group. Body weight, body composition, maximal strength, dietary intake, and mood states were determined before
and after an 8-week exercise (periodized resistance training) and supplementation period. There were no changes in body weight,
percentage fat, total body water, dietary intake, or mood states in either group. Muscle endurance (determined by the maximal number
of repetitions at 100-200% of body weight) increased for the bench and leg press exercises in the placebo group (p <.05; bench press
+/-28.4%, leg press +/-28.6%), while the tribulus group experienced an increase in leg press strength only (bench press +/-3.1%, not
significant; leg press +/-28.6%, p <.05). Supplementation with tribulus does not enhance body composition or exercise performance in
resistance-trained males.
SteelWeaver said:Muwaaa haaa haaa haaa ha ha ha ha.
This is the ONLY thing that's made me laugh all week!!! Thank you thank you!
Better get out your scientific dictionary, ryce. That, and take a couple of days off work
(Not flaming you - but it may have been better to read the boards a bit longer before slamming down anecdotal evidence like it was the words off the Mount.)
Can you read?
I posted a anedoctal evidence and said so. Asked for opinions and studies
MS has ZERO evidence zero studies. Basically it is put up or shut up..
plain simple
MS said:
NICEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE TRY!!!
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FEMALES NOT MALES!!
there are really many studies with men and tribulus also many other tribulus studies. But in the absence of something to contribute you try to drag the core issue into something else.
HELLOOOOOOOOOOOO!!WOMENS BOARD HERE...
Check your ego outside and stick to the topic or create yourself another one.
SORRY. that's pathetic.
Anyways.
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Thank you-I now understand the question. So now it comes back to WarLobo's original question "could you explain and give us some information how they "work" - by whatever definition you want to use". I apologize that I didn’t realize your question was specifically about test boosters FOR WOMEN. Even though this is a women’s board, so much of the published research on test enhancement is focused on men. Not only have I never used either of the products you mentioned (so in all rights should not even be replying to this thread), but there is no research that I know of that specifically looks at the test boosting effects of tribulus in women, and there is no research at ALL (in either gender) that has addressed the effects of Humanovar on test levels. BUT (and this is a big but) there is no reason, theoretically speaking, to suspect that tribulus would boost testosterone in a female unless she was deficient in DHEA. This is not a trivial point, and you ignore/discard this info as you choose. Women do not have testes-that should be self-evident. If you don’t understand the basic differences in HPT response to the same stimulus between men and women, then it is beyond the scope of this thread to bring you up to speed.
I have already said that there are women that could possibly notice improvements in libido, lean muscle mass etc...via the tribulus acting as both a vasodilator (better sexual arousal) and as a pre-estrogen (via DHEA) in women. So if we're talking about improved health and sex life, then yes you might get results from properly formulated and standardized tribuls extract. However there is little chance that you will get a direct increase in testosterone from tribulus derived DHEA. So it depends on if you're talking specifically about an increase in test (test booster=your original question), or other improvements that might make you "think" it was an increase in test (what I think you are calling real world results).
Similar extracts of fenugreek also have a cholesterol lowering effect as well, so there are potentially many benefits to taking high quality extracts of tribulus. I really can’t comment at all on humanovar….you’ll have to be a guinea pig if you really want to find out. But in MY real-life world, we measure the results of a testosterone boosting supplement by measuring testosterone. How do YOU measure it?
BTW, my response “That is truly idiotic” was in reply to your assertion that manufacturers of prohormones, or natural extracts reputed to increase testosterone, do not want their supplements ‘proven’ to be effective. That is the most pathetic excuse I have ever seen for not being able to prove the effectiveness of a supplement. The reality will either be
a) You really believe your product is great, but you can’t possibly come up with the millions of dollars needed for evidential clinical trials to ‘prove’ it is effective; or
b) You know your product ain’t worth shit and are pretty happy that no one has the money or desire to test it.
There are other possibilities that could be added to that short list, but I’ll wager over 99% of current supps on the market will fit one of those two categories.
I am wondering why you are still here (although I admit I admire tenacity). It seems you came to this women’s board expecting rave reviews about these products, and are more than a little pissed that no one around here shares you enthusiasm. Have you ever considered stepping back from the emotive issues and asking yourself why it is that there are so few women on one of the biggest women’s bodybuilding discussion boards who will say “yes, I got great results from this supplement”??
I have already said that there are women that could possibly notice improvements in libido, lean muscle mass etc...via the tribulus acting as both a vasodilator (better sexual arousal) and as a pre-estrogen (via DHEA) in women. So if we're talking about improved health and sex life, then yes you might get results from properly formulated and standardized tribuls extract. However there is little chance that you will get a direct increase in testosterone from tribulus derived DHEA. So it depends on if you're talking specifically about an increase in test (test booster=your original question), or other improvements that might make you "think" it was an increase in test (what I think you are calling real world results).
Similar extracts of fenugreek also have a cholesterol lowering effect as well, so there are potentially many benefits to taking high quality extracts of tribulus. I really can’t comment at all on humanovar….you’ll have to be a guinea pig if you really want to find out. But in MY real-life world, we measure the results of a testosterone boosting supplement by measuring testosterone. How do YOU measure it?
BTW, my response “That is truly idiotic” was in reply to your assertion that manufacturers of prohormones, or natural extracts reputed to increase testosterone, do not want their supplements ‘proven’ to be effective. That is the most pathetic excuse I have ever seen for not being able to prove the effectiveness of a supplement. The reality will either be
a) You really believe your product is great, but you can’t possibly come up with the millions of dollars needed for evidential clinical trials to ‘prove’ it is effective; or
b) You know your product ain’t worth shit and are pretty happy that no one has the money or desire to test it.
There are other possibilities that could be added to that short list, but I’ll wager over 99% of current supps on the market will fit one of those two categories.
I am wondering why you are still here (although I admit I admire tenacity). It seems you came to this women’s board expecting rave reviews about these products, and are more than a little pissed that no one around here shares you enthusiasm. Have you ever considered stepping back from the emotive issues and asking yourself why it is that there are so few women on one of the biggest women’s bodybuilding discussion boards who will say “yes, I got great results from this supplement”??
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Real quick. Here goes:
Studies don't prove efficacy. Many studies are done invitro,on animals etc and have no bearing on real world results -- especially among conditioned athletes. For any research that proves one side of the argument, there's another that proves the opposing side. Supplement companies also use sketchy evidence to prove a point that will sell their product.
As far as Tribulus being effective in older men, the opposite is true. Trib MAY increase LH in some people but older men have much less LH, therefore even a 10% increase is unlikely to make much of a difference.
Prohormones are actually better for women than men because women don't have a HPTA to get messed up.
.
Studies don't prove efficacy. Many studies are done invitro,on animals etc and have no bearing on real world results -- especially among conditioned athletes. For any research that proves one side of the argument, there's another that proves the opposing side. Supplement companies also use sketchy evidence to prove a point that will sell their product.
As far as Tribulus being effective in older men, the opposite is true. Trib MAY increase LH in some people but older men have much less LH, therefore even a 10% increase is unlikely to make much of a difference.
Prohormones are actually better for women than men because women don't have a HPTA to get messed up.
.
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