Winny & Finasteride (Propescia)

[buffdoc]

Re: Deca & Propecia -- no no!

By Brock Strasser:

Deca and Propecia Don't Mix

I use one milligram of Propecia a day to keep my hair. I've heard that I shouldn't use it while on Deca. Where do you stand on the issue?

I'm in 100% agreement. If you use Deca, you shouldn't use Propecia. Here's why. Propecia is a 5-a-reductase inhibitor. It prevents testosterone from becoming DHT. Compared to testosterone, DHT is more androgenic and tougher on the hairline. Deca is 5-a-reduced to DHN (dihydronandrolone). DHN is less androgenic than nandrolone. You'd want this to happen to save the hairline or minimize the androgenic insult to it. Propecia would prevent this from happening.

In conclusion, Propecia and Deca are like a fat woman and —put the two together, and you'll be sorry in the morning.

This is specious and illogical. See my other post.

 

[buffdoc]

"1-How does Winny cause hair loss?"
Throug non-ar effects i think

"2-Does Deca interact negatively with Finasteride and how/why?"
Yes
Endokrinologie 1982 Oct;80(2):163-72 Related Articles, Links


Different binding of testosterone, 19-nortestosterone and their 5 alpha-reduced derivatives to the androgen receptor of the rat seminal vesicle: a step toward the understanding of the anabolic action of nortesterone.

Toth M, Zakar T.

Binding to the androgen receptor of rat seminal vesicle was studied in vitro using cell-free extract or minced tissue. Relative binding affinities of 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT), 5 alpha-dihydro-19-nortestosterone (DHN), nortestosterone and testosterone were estimated from their competition with [3H]-DHT for the binding sites. In contrast with the conflicting results obtained with cell-free systems incubated at 0-15 degrees C, studies performed with vesicular mince at 37 degrees C proved to be useful to demonstrate characteristic differences in binding affinity and to gain information about binding both to cytosol and nuclear receptors. Competition data were graphically analyzed, and after correction for steroid metabolism the following relative competition indices were obtained: DHT = 1.00; nortestosterone = 0.32-0.4; testosterone = 0.1-0.2; DHN = 0.12. However, binding to cytosolic and nuclear receptors did not differ significantly. It is concluded that testosterone and 19-nortestosterone (which are equally good substrates for 5 alpha-reductase) are converted in the seminal vesicles to metabolites, of which DHT exhibits an affinity to the androgen receptor nearly one order of magnitude higher than that of DHN. On the other hand, in skeletal muscles that are practically devoid of 5 alpha-reductase activity, the 3-fold higher affinity of nortestosterone to the receptor, expectedly, results in a myotropic activity that is superior to that of testosterone.

PMID: 7160340 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

How does this study in ANY way show that using a 5AR inhibitor with nandrolone worsens hair loss? It only compares binding affinities in rat seminal vesicle blender sludge.

 

[buffdoc]

Bump for comments

 

[Qrios]

"How does this study in ANY way show that using a 5AR inhibitor with nandrolone worsens hair loss? It only compares binding affinities in rat seminal vesicle blender sludge."

Well, it shows the binding affinity for test and nandrolon before and after conversion by 5AR. It shows dhn has less binding affinity than nandrolon itself.

And yes the binding affinities in rat seminal vesicle blender sludge might a little missleading if you think there is non A-receptor-effects.
Or are you saying there are different binding affinities at the hair follicle.

I'm not sure what was unclear too you in the first place.

 

[buffdoc]

"How does this study in ANY way show that using a 5AR inhibitor with nandrolone worsens hair loss? It only compares binding affinities in rat seminal vesicle blender sludge."

Well, it shows the binding affinity for test and nandrolon before and after conversion by 5AR. It shows dhn has less binding affinity than nandrolon itself.

And yes the binding affinities in rat seminal vesicle blender sludge might a little missleading if you think there is non A-receptor-effects.
Or are you saying there are different binding affinities at the hair follicle.

I'm not sure what was unclear too you in the first place.

Sorry, I missed this one.
First of all, if you read the previous post (http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=2198035#post2198035)
you'll note that all androgens, regardless of binding affinities, do NOT have an equal effect on hair loss.
Also I am calling into question the entire idea that what we see during or after cycles is in fact androgenetic alopecia. As I've repeatedly noted, AGA is a relatively slow, progressive process. What we may be seeing in these oft-noted acute losses of hair, is something like a telogen effluvium.
So the whole issue of nandrolone vs DHN is probably irrelevant here; they are both relatively weak androgens anyway, so limiting conversion to DHN is probably a theoretical concern only. I feel that telling people on test and Deca to avoid Propecia is not fact-based.
I also touched on this indirectly in the sticky on Hair Loss.

 

[Qrios]

I don’t think anyone knowledgeable guy has said it would be worse on the hair with the combination deca/finasteride than testosterone neither with or without finasteride (for a given anabolic effect that is) since f. doesen’t block all 5-ar.
Too my limited knowledge the only steroids that is effected by any extent by 5-ar is nandrolone and test.
And I think Bill Roberts also have said it would be a good idea too take f. if you take test with the deca.

“In the case of nandrolone, 5alpha-reductase converts it to a milder steroid, DHN, so the enzyme is your friend and you don't want to block it. If you do, then you lose that benefit and you have the same sort of effect as with most synthetic steroids or with testosterone+finasteride,, where the scalp experiences the same steroid as the rest of the body does, rather than a milder one. Still a better situation though than with testosterone without finasteride, where the scalp experiences a more potent androgen than the rest of the body.” –Bill Roberts (from the t-mag forum)

Btw. Telogen effluvium is reversible, right?

 

[geoboy]

Sorry, I missed this one.
First of all, if you read the previous post (http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=2198035#post2198035)
you'll note that all androgens, regardless of binding affinities, do NOT have an equal effect on hair loss.
Also I am calling into question the entire idea that what we see during or after cycles is in fact androgenetic alopecia. As I've repeatedly noted, AGA is a relatively slow, progressive process. What we may be seeing in these oft-noted acute losses of hair, is something like a telogen effluvium.
So the whole issue of nandrolone vs DHN is probably irrelevant here; they are both relatively weak androgens anyway, so limiting conversion to DHN is probably a theoretical concern only. I feel that telling people on test and Deca to avoid Propecia is not fact-based.
I also touched on this indirectly in the sticky on Hair Loss.

I had this thought also on androgenetic alopecia vs telogen effluvium. the miniturization process occurs over many hair growth/loss cycles and take many months. the quick loss (even on 1-ad and the 1 test prohormones) MUST be i the nature of a shock fallout. certain chemicals/drugs/chemo are well documented to cause telogen effluvium (large numbers forced into shed phase at same time giving appearence of balding) or anagen effluvium (hair snaps off at the scalp).

if this is the case, in the short term, an agent that would inhibit the inflamation at the follicle might be good to stop the fallout. products containing copper peptides (like folligen i think) would do this.

i can actually feel the inflamation when i go high dose on androgens of any sort (xcept deca/19-nor or anavar), which is then allieviated with copper peptides at the sensitive areas (for me the temples since I've already lost the top long ago).


comments and experience welcome.

 

[buffdoc]

I don’t think anyone knowledgeable guy has said it would be worse on the hair with the combination deca/finasteride than testosterone neither with or without finasteride (for a given anabolic effect that is) since f. doesen’t block all 5-ar.
Too my limited knowledge the only steroids that is effected by any extent by 5-ar is nandrolone and test.
And I think Bill Roberts also have said it would be a good idea too take f. if you take test with the deca.

“In the case of nandrolone, 5alpha-reductase converts it to a milder steroid, DHN, so the enzyme is your friend and you don't want to block it. If you do, then you lose that benefit and you have the same sort of effect as with most synthetic steroids or with testosterone+finasteride,, where the scalp experiences the same steroid as the rest of the body does, rather than a milder one. Still a better situation though than with testosterone without finasteride, where the scalp experiences a more potent androgen than the rest of the body.” –Bill Roberts (from the t-mag forum)

Btw. Telogen effluvium is reversible, right?

Yeah, my main beef is with the idea that Deca and finasteride don't mix (test not being an issue). It's not based on any eveidence or even on logic. I just think it's gotten to be one of those things we "know" and take for granted without really thinking about. And also, Bill Roberts seems to think, as many do, that all androgens that agonize the AR have the potential to cause AGA. Not based in fact, as I've also posted.
Another thing that I've posted about and would really like to find out some day (I don't think there's any data about it at this point) is this: with the kind of supraphsiolgic levels of testosterone that are achieved with, say, a gram or more of test per week, is finasterde, or dutasteride, or ANYthing that's currently available going to prevent higher than normal levels of DHT? Or are we just kidding ourselves?
BTW, your correct: telogen effluvium IS usually reversible when the stimulus or stress is withdrawn. Classic example: regrowth after cancer chemotherapy. Scalp biopsy should be able to distinguish between AGA and TE. Anyone on trenbolone want to submit?

 

[e-man2]

Dosage of Deva to have any impact on AHL

One thing that was never discussed in this thread was the Deca/Finasteride combo in relation to dosage. At what dosage does it or would it become of any significance?

Just to let you know I am taking 300-400mg/week of Deca, with the 50mg/day winny tabs.

Peace

 

[e-man2]

Dosage of Deva to have any impact on AHL

One thing that was never discussed in this thread was the Deca/Finasteride combo in relation to dosage. At what dosage does it or would it become of any significance?

Just to let you know I am taking 300-400mg/week of Deca, with the 50mg/day winny tabs.

PS
In Roberts book he c;ear;y states that finasteride will assist in Halo conversion and help reduce hailr loss associated with halo.


Peace