Winny & Finasteride (Propescia)

[buffdoc]

Bigfella
Your explanation is fine, such as it is, it just doesn't answer my question. Either I'm not seeing your point, or your not seeing mine; who knows?
OK: I know testosterone forms DHT (duh!), which is bad on the hair. What I meant was that testosterone, the precursor, IN AND OF ITSELF is not a big factor in MPB. So if, as your Peter Van Mol quote says, nandrolones's structure renders it a significantly WEAKER androgen than testosterone, then how is it going to effect hair loss one way or the other, regardless of whether nandrolone is converted to an even WEAKER androgen, such as DHN, or whether it stays as nandrolone (in the presence of 5 AR inhibition with finasteride or dutasteride)? Can you show me how nandrolone, although a weaker androgen than test, still is so bad-ass on the hairline? THIS is the question I've been (unsucessfully so far) trying to get an answer to.
I understand about precursor molecules and their enzymatic transformation. BTW, Bill Robert's explanation doesn't cut it either. In fact, (http://www.mesomorphosis.com/faq/na...kely-to-cause-hair-loss-than-testosterone.htm)
HE says that nandrolone itself is a 5AR inhibitor, and that the presence of nandrolone (NOT DHN) means there will be less DHT in the scalp. Therefore less effect on the hair.
Does this make the nature of my question clearer? Or, have I perhaps answered it my self? If so, finasteride with Deca should be fine.

 

[buffdoc]

^^^^

 

[e-man2]

Deca & Finasteride

I agree with Buffdoc that Deca & Finasteride combo is safe for hair loss. All the information provided by both Buffdoc and Bigfella indicates the same thing, i.e. Deac with Propescia has no influence on each other. The only question is does Finasteride prevent Nandrolone converting to DHN and what impact is there if any?.

Since we have the above mostly addressed, can someone kindly answer the other 2 questions:

1- How does Winny & Finaplix cause hair loss?
2-How does Winny & Finaplix interact with Finastaeride, i.e. better or worse or no influence ?

I thank everyone for their patience, but getting these questions answered is important to me.

Peace

 

[e-man2]

Deca & Finasteride

I agree with Buffdoc that Deca & Finasteride combo is safe for hair loss. All the information provided by both Buffdoc and Bigfella indicates the same thing, i.e. Deac with Propescia has no influence on each other. The only question is does Finasteride prevent Nandrolone converting to DHN and what impact is there if any?.

Since we have the above mostly addressed, can someone kindly answer the other 2 questions:

1- How does Winny & Finaplix cause hair loss?
2-How does Winny & Finaplix interact with Finastaeride, i.e. better or worse or no influence ?

I thank everyone for their patience, but getting these questions answered is important to me.

Peace

 

[Nutrient-Nut]

Deca & Propecia -- no no!

By Brock Strasser:

Deca and Propecia Don't Mix

I use one milligram of Propecia a day to keep my hair. I've heard that I shouldn't use it while on Deca. Where do you stand on the issue?

I'm in 100% agreement. If you use Deca, you shouldn't use Propecia. Here's why. Propecia is a 5-a-reductase inhibitor. It prevents testosterone from becoming DHT. Compared to testosterone, DHT is more androgenic and tougher on the hairline. Deca is 5-a-reduced to DHN (dihydronandrolone). DHN is less androgenic than nandrolone. You'd want this to happen to save the hairline or minimize the androgenic insult to it. Propecia would prevent this from happening.

In conclusion, Propecia and Deca are like a fat woman and tequila—put the two together, and you'll be sorry in the morning.

 

[Qrios]

"1-How does Winny cause hair loss?"
Throug non-ar effects i think

"2-Does Deca interact negatively with Finasteride and how/why?"
Yes
Endokrinologie 1982 Oct;80(2):163-72 Related Articles, Links


Different binding of testosterone, 19-nortestosterone and their 5 alpha-reduced derivatives to the androgen receptor of the rat seminal vesicle: a step toward the understanding of the anabolic action of nortesterone.

Toth M, Zakar T.

Binding to the androgen receptor of rat seminal vesicle was studied in vitro using cell-free extract or minced tissue. Relative binding affinities of 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT), 5 alpha-dihydro-19-nortestosterone (DHN), nortestosterone and testosterone were estimated from their competition with [3H]-DHT for the binding sites. In contrast with the conflicting results obtained with cell-free systems incubated at 0-15 degrees C, studies performed with vesicular mince at 37 degrees C proved to be useful to demonstrate characteristic differences in binding affinity and to gain information about binding both to cytosol and nuclear receptors. Competition data were graphically analyzed, and after correction for steroid metabolism the following relative competition indices were obtained: DHT = 1.00; nortestosterone = 0.32-0.4; testosterone = 0.1-0.2; DHN = 0.12. However, binding to cytosolic and nuclear receptors did not differ significantly. It is concluded that testosterone and 19-nortestosterone (which are equally good substrates for 5 alpha-reductase) are converted in the seminal vesicles to metabolites, of which DHT exhibits an affinity to the androgen receptor nearly one order of magnitude higher than that of DHN. On the other hand, in skeletal muscles that are practically devoid of 5 alpha-reductase activity, the 3-fold higher affinity of nortestosterone to the receptor, expectedly, results in a myotropic activity that is superior to that of testosterone.

PMID: 7160340 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

"3-Does Winny interact negatively with Finasteride and how/why? "
No

I'm sure someone will disagree there is non AR effects.

 

[e-man2]

Board Divided

I think the board is divided on this Deca/Propescia issue.

Question:
Has anyone ever experienced increased hair loss while on a Deca Finasteride (Propescia) cycle?

I mean seriously, the only eveidence here why Deca with Propescia would be harsh on the hairline is because of the conversion to DHN. But, Nandrolone is less androgenic then Test. and test itself without converting to DHT is not of impact to the hair line???

Also, why does Roberts not mention that in his book if it's true??

What about the other questions?

Where are the hair gurus when you need them??

 

[The Bigfella]

Test does play a factor with hairloss bro as will any androgen binding steroid, although they have varying degrees of effect.
Test is still a potent AR binding hormone and will accelerate pre-existing androgenic alopecia, but not to the extent of the very androgenic DHT.
Fina aggravates through the same manner, aggressive AR binding and does not undergo any conversion to do so, it is already very high with regard AR affinity.

I honestly don't believe Winny to be harsh at all, it gets the blame for being a DHT derivative, but that is crap, DHT accelerates hairloss through its potency at the AR and Winny has a very low affinity for the AR, I believe whenever I have asked around, guys that claim it was due to Winny are ignoring the other steroids in the stack due to the false DHT claims that have been around for years. Also those that have lost hair, were already prone to MPB and were losing it anyway, how one can determine that Winny was to blame is beyond me.........

I agree with buffdoc completely that Deca and propecia together are still a very mild combo, the point is they are only more harsh in comparison to nandrolones reduced version (DHN) and not other steroids, it is still very mild.

Bigfella.

 

[Nutrient-Nut]

I'm with "The Bigfella" on this in regards to Winstrol. Just because Winny is a DHT derivative people think that it's the culprit in their stacks, which usually include a more androgenic compound. I've never had a problem with Winstrol and hair loss, except for one time when I stacked it with Tren. Tren was the culprit, because I've done Winstrol with Equipoise...and no problems and I've done Winstrol with Deca...also no problems. Hmmmmn, maybe Winny isn't that bad after all.

NN

 

[buffdoc]

Test does play a factor with hairloss bro as will any androgen binding steroid, although they have varying degrees of effect.
Test is still a potent AR binding hormone and will accelerate pre-existing androgenic alopecia, but not to the extent of the very androgenic DHT.
Fina aggravates through the same manner, aggressive AR binding and does not undergo any conversion to do so, it is already very high with regard AR affinity.



BigFella
Gotta disagree with you on this one. This is also one of the reasons that I believe the Deca/Propecia prohibition is a myth based on hearsay. (besides, most ppl do Deca with test; surely they shouldn't forego finasteride!) I know you agree with me that the Deca/Propecia combo is weak, as you said. But there seems to be this "understanding" on the board that any and all androgens have an effect on hair loss. Simply not true. I assume that's where the Deca thing came from, that no one's really been able to explain to me or support.
It's widely acknowledged that 5 AR conversion of test to DHT is necessary for induction of androgenetic alopecia (MPB) in susceptible men and women. (This is from the 3rd Edition of Unger's book on Hair Transplantation).
This is supported by the fact that AGA does NOT occur in testicular feminization syndrome or in people with congenital 5AR deficiency (completely normal testosterone levels, but no DHT). These androgen disorders were one of the ways science learned about mechanisms of AGA. So testosterone is NOT, in and of itself, a contributor to AGA, and there's no reason to believe that any of the others, no matter how androgenic they are, (unless they are DHT), contribute to AGA.
In regards to trenbolone, stanozolol, or any other androgens; Sudden hair loss during the course of a cycle may have nothing at all to do w/ AGA. (I've posted about this before). AGA is a progressive miniaturization of the hair shaft. Each successive anagen (growth) phase becomes shorter and shorter (anagen lasts 2 to 5 YEARS), until the hair is miniaturized and eventually lost. Could this happen during a 3 or 4 MONTH cycle? No.
We use finasteride to halt or slow this GRADUAL, progressive process. Hair suddenly falling out during a cycle may be related to the gear, but I seriously doubt the influence of AGA.
Telogen effluvium? Much more possible. This can occur, suddenly, and may be triggered by a variety of stressors: diet, pregnancy, drugs, illness, fever, etc. What happens on a cycle? Dieting, drugs, stress, sweating (fever?). See the connection?
I think all the stressing about Deca/ Popecia, Tren vs Winny, etc is targeting the wrong entity.
Research telogen effluvium, and associated causes of sudden hair loss. I don't think any of this is characteristic of AGA or MPB.
To much hearsay about hair loss associated with AAS for me to ignore.