while in ketosis does cardio only burn fat since its protien sparing?

[nclifter6feet6]

is there any differnent effect on the body while in ketosis when doing cardio. is it more efficiant at burning fat, since ketosis is protien sparing???????/

 

[plornive]

Being in ketosis means you will likely burn more fat and less glucose during low intensity cardio. Your body does not have to work as hard to begin burning fat, as your body has already mobilized a lot of fat, ingested a lot of fat, and gotten used to the idea that carbohydrates are not going to be ingested anytime soon. You will be using fat and very little glycogen/glucose from the beginning.

If you do anything more than low intensity cardio, your body will use glucose. This means you will convert some amino acids and some glycerol to glucose. During ketosis, take some very long walks, or just increase your overall activity level. This will increase your fat burning with less effect on glucose metabolism.

 

[nclifter6feet6]

so are you saying with high intesisty cardio i wont burn as much fat????im confused bro

 

[plornive]

If you are eating carbs, high intensity cardio will, in my opinion, burn just as much fat as low intensity. Although high intensity cardio seems to inhibit fatty-acid mobilization and metabolism during actual exercise, it seems to cause a massive post-exercise fatty-acid mobilization. Basically, you burn carbs during high intensity cardio and burn more fat later on because of it. For about an hour after some high intensity cardio, your body is metabolizing fat to replenish intra-muscular triglycerides and other recuperate.

If you are in ketosis, you are not eating very many carbs. High intensity cardio *requires* glucose/glycogen because of the muscle fiber type used. This means that you should not do high intensity cardio while in ketosis --- your body will catabolize a lot of muscle in the process of obtaining glucose from amino acids and glycerol (cortisol and glucagon). This will not happen as much with low intensity cardio in ketosis, because you will be using mostly type 1 (oxidative) muscle fibers that can more easily burn fatty acids.

Likewise, if you are in ketosis for a long time and try to lift weights with very low muscle glycogen, you will be weak and lose lots of muscle. Your muscles rely almost exclusively on glycogen while lifting, so you will be weak. Your muscles *cannot* use ketones for energy. Your type 2 fibers (ones you use most for lifting) have a very difficult time utilizing fatty-acids. Lifting will make your muscles even hungrier for glucose (thereby lowering your blood-sugar and causing cortisol and glucagon release), and gluconeogenesis (cortisol and glucagon) will eat your muscles. This is why a non-stop ketogenic diet will destroy your muscles. A cyclical ketogenic diet will allow you to train because of temporarily elevated glycogen levels.

 

[plornive]

So, if you are ketosis avoid high intensity anything unless your muscle glycogen is high from a recent carb-up. Don't lift when your glycogen is really low.

Low intensity cardio is great while in ketosis, it simply increases your caloric expenditure without causing too much catabolism. Fast walking or very slow jogging is fine.

 

[MASSIVEmorris]

huh....

I don't get it...(maybe I'm just a dumbass). I figure that if you're in ketosis for an extended period of time, and, you train with weights and do high intensity cardio...you will burn fat at a faster rate than you would if you did "carb-ups". Seeing how you are constantly in ketosis, you will be burning fat constantly. Yes, you will lose muscle. But won't the fat-loss far outweigh the muscle you lose during this time? If this isn't the case...I've been under the wrong impression ...and...I'm going to literally kick my ass.

 

[Mr.X]

Re: huh....

I don't get it...(maybe I'm just a dumbass). I figure that if you're in ketosis for an extended period of time, and, you train with weights and do high intensity cardio...you will burn fat at a faster rate than you would if you did "carb-ups". Seeing how you are constantly in ketosis, you will be burning fat constantly. Yes, you will lose muscle. But won't the fat-loss far outweigh the muscle you lose during this time? If this isn't the case...I've been under the wrong impression ...and...I'm going to literally kick my ass.

Well, you bring up several controversial topics in this post; thus, I shall attempt to address some of the more mainstream ones.

1)No, you will not burn-fat at a faster rate by living for the rest of your life in Ketosis, due to the fact of your T4-T3 conversion literally crashing through the ground.
2)Carb-Ups are more likely to expand muscle cells and increase the anabolic state of the body, in turn increasing nitrogen retension(think steroids)
3)Fat-loss in any type of Ketonic diet--if done right--will always outweight the muscle loss so to speak, yet the question is if the muscle you lose is worth the fat you lose. The answer is YES.

Mr.X EliteFitness Moderator

 

[MASSIVEmorris]

Ok, I'm starting to understand. However, could I keep my T4-T3 conversion rate up and going by taking something like "T2-Pro" by Biotest, or, is this simply not good enough. Secondly, I've been in ketosis now for 1 week and 3 days (I had planned on being in it for 7 more weeks...but you guys are starting to make me think twice). Should I try CKD again...and just do a shorter carb-up (i.e. 8-12 hours). Like I've said before...I ALWAYS mess up on carb-ups...for one reason or another. So, if I was going to go with the shortened carb-up approach...I would need everything laid out for me (exact mealtimes, and, what to eat at each meal). OR, should I go for the TKD approach. I don't really understand the TKD one too much. When do you ingest your preworkout carbs and how many grams of carbs would that be. Also, do I take in post-workout carbs on a TKD? ARGH...I just want to get ripped....DAMN!

Thanks for the help.....

 

[plornive]

It is pointless to never take carbs, even on a ketogenic diet. Your body CANNOT use ketones for lifting!!! Therefore, you are losing muscle to make up for lack of glucose while lifting. As an added bonus, it also *sucks* to lift without carbs. You should simply replace some of your fat calories with pre-wo/post-wo/carb-up carbs and lose less muscle!

The way to stay in ketosis is to keep liver glycogen low. Giving your muscles some glycogen will not hinder this. It will only prevent muscle loss. Fat is not required to be in ketosis, so if you replace some fat calories with carb calories, you will lose just as much weight as long as you utilize the carbs before they get to your liver.

 

[plornive]

Ok, I'm starting to understand. However, could I keep my T4-T3 conversion rate up and going by taking something like "T2-Pro" by Biotest, or, is this simply not good enough. Secondly, I've been in ketosis now for 1 week and 3 days (I had planned on being in it for 7 more weeks...but you guys are starting to make me think twice). Should I try CKD again...and just do a shorter carb-up (i.e. 8-12 hours). Like I've said before...I ALWAYS mess up on carb-ups...for one reason or another. So, if I was going to go with the shortened carb-up approach...I would need everything laid out for me (exact mealtimes, and, what to eat at each meal). OR, should I go for the TKD approach. I don't really understand the TKD one too much. When do you ingest your preworkout carbs and how many grams of carbs would that be. Also, do I take in post-workout carbs on a TKD? ARGH...I just want to get ripped....DAMN!

Thanks for the help.....

Try Mr. X's TKD. http://www.elitefitness.com/articledata/mrx/tkdmrx.html

 

[Mr.X]

Try Mr. X's TKD. http://www.elitefitness.com/articledata/mrx/tkdmrx.html

LISTEN to the wise man!!!



Mr.X

 

[Mr.X]

Ok, I'm starting to understand. However, could I keep my T4-T3 conversion rate up and going by taking something like "T2-Pro" by Biotest, or, is this simply not good enough. Secondly, I've been in ketosis now for 1 week and 3 days (I had planned on being in it for 7 more weeks...but you guys are starting to make me think twice). Should I try CKD again...and just do a shorter carb-up (i.e. 8-12 hours). Like I've said before...I ALWAYS mess up on carb-ups...for one reason or another. So, if I was going to go with the shortened carb-up approach...I would need everything laid out for me (exact mealtimes, and, what to eat at each meal). OR, should I go for the TKD approach. I don't really understand the TKD one too much. When do you ingest your preworkout carbs and how many grams of carbs would that be. Also, do I take in post-workout carbs on a TKD? ARGH...I just want to get ripped....DAMN!

Thanks for the help.....

Seems to me that you are a little confused my friend. So, here's what you can try: go on a CKD but keep the carb-up very short: 4 meals=8 hours...all meals should be high on the GI scale

Mr.X EliteFitness Moderator

 

[MrMakaveli]

Losing muscle while lifting in ketosis?

Wait, you lose muscle while lifting in ketosis?....if that were true then how do you suppose that the multiple medical studies showing resistance training while on a vlcd (which induces ketosis) greatly helped in preventing muscle loss?

I could see possibly if someone was doing extremely high volume training while in ketosis, but keeping workouts intense and short , this really shouldnt be a problem should it?.

 

[plornive]

Re: Losing muscle while lifting in ketosis?

Wait, you lose muscle while lifting in ketosis?....if that were true then how do you suppose that the multiple medical studies showing resistance training while on a vlcd (which induces ketosis) greatly helped in preventing muscle loss?

I could see possibly if someone was doing extremely high volume training while in ketosis, but keeping workouts intense and short , this really shouldnt be a problem should it?.

Lifting *always* causes some catabolism during the act. If you lift on a high carb diet, your body does not have to catabolize as much muscle due to sufficient liver glycogen levels. In ketosis, the only way your body can get glucose is through catabolism and gluconeogenesis (through the secretion of cortisol and glucagon). This means that lifting while in ketosis causes more catabolism than lifting on a high carb diet.

Anabolism follows when you ingest nutrients. This is generally true no whether you are in ketosis or not.

 

[MASSIVEmorris]

Specifics

Seems to me that you are a little confused my friend. So, here's what you can try: go on a CKD but keep the carb-up very short: 4 meals=8 hours...all meals should be high on the GI scale

Sorry to be such a pain in the ass, but...could you tell me what exactly to eat at each meal. Also, how many grams of carbs-protein-fat should I shoot for in this 8 hour period? I'm 213lbs...if that helps any? If you don't want to give me specifics...that's fine...it's just that I'd like something to print out and follow to the "T". AGAIN, thanks A LOT FOR THE HELP (can't emphasize that enough).

 

[nclifter6feet6]

i cant speak for everyone but in my case, i lifted quite often in ketosis hitting a muscle 3 times per week but using very low reps around 3 and it worked great for me holding onto muscle. i think higher reps would burn you out and leave you overtrained, dont think you use as much glycogen training at low reps because each set is short

 

[plornive]

i cant speak for everyone but in my case, i lifted quite often in ketosis hitting a muscle 3 times per week but using very low reps around 3 and it worked great for me holding onto muscle. i think higher reps would burn you out and leave you overtrained, dont think you use as much glycogen training at low reps because each set is short

This makes sense. Less volume requires less glycogen, so lifting might be ok for someone in ketosis. Have you tried pre-workout carbs? Replacing some fat with maybe 25g maltodextrin?

 

[Mr.X]

Re: Specifics

Sorry to be such a pain in the ass, but...could you tell me what exactly to eat at each meal. Also, how many grams of carbs-protein-fat should I shoot for in this 8 hour period? I'm 213lbs...if that helps any? If you don't want to give me specifics...that's fine...it's just that I'd like something to print out and follow to the "T". AGAIN, thanks A LOT FOR THE HELP (can't emphasize that enough).

1-2: 150 g liquid glucose polymers...like carb powders (ex..carbo max, dextrose..etc.) w/ 1 scoop protein

3-4: 75 g of liquid and solid glucose polymers...sugar cereals (frosted flakes,honey-nut-cheerios..etc) w/ fat-free milk w/ 1/4 cup walnuts

Mr.X

 

[nclifter6feet6]

good idea plorn....i dont use maltodextrin but i do have a big serving of cabbage everytime before i lift. that is my only source of carbs is steamed cabbage before i lift

 

[nclifter6feet6]

i wouldnt have much fat to replace anyways because i only get about 30 grams of fat (from my catfish and flax) 0-10 carbs from cabbage and 210-220 grams of protien works wonders. i noticed a big difference when i added the catfish my skin looked better and more sex drive, i was very suprised my sexdrive didnt go down at all with low fat and low carbs i guess its because im getting the healthy fats and those fats are the only fats your body really needs in my opinon

 

[Bobarell]

OK MASSIVEmorris,

I am no expert, but I have been doing this Keto thing for about 2 moths now and I will tell you what I have been experiencing since on it.

I did straight Keto for 3 weeks. I started out with very little muscle so building the muscle wasn't hard, therefor my strength has gone up in every exercise. I did start to feel a little weak in the gym on the 3rd week so that weekend I had a couple of high carb meals. They made me feel like crap. Couldn't lift for shit that whole week.

The high carb meals didn't work for me so I decided to do a TKD like Mr. X and plornive mentioned. Well, since I react kinda wierd to carbs I was feeling weak in the gym again that week. That was 3 weeks ago and tried it for 2 weeks. I have tried a lot of different things to get my weight training up to par again while cutting all of my fat.

Like I said.....I was doing great, but after no carb-up "days" for 2 months straight I felt like shit in the gym. I still liked my progress in the mirror so I wanted to keep on with my Keto. I read a lot of stuff and decided to go with a CKD diet.

I started it last week and did my first real Carb-up weekend last weekend. About 1000g of carbs over 56 hours. I did gain a couple of pounds, but I lost it again after 1 1/2 days(water). My first WO after the carb up weekend was absolutely great, the best in about 1 1/2 months. I felt great, lifted great and got great pump.

So you can see what I eat...I am 5'10" 160...started at 180 20%bf. I don't think I have ever had this much muscle on my body so I am happy. Anyway, her is my macronutrient breakdown now that I am down to 160

200 pro/20 carbs/100 fat give or take a few here and there to get to around 1900cals, but atleast those amounts of each. I also need <200 g of protein to feel great in the gym as well. According to all the specs on the CKD I am supposed to be eating 163p/20c/136f, but I need the extra protein. If you would like to do the CKD thing than LMK and I will get you the link to a page that will tell you where you need your calories from. It will tell you everything. I am at work so I do not have that link handy but if you want it I will be sure to get it for you asap.

 

[MASSIVEmorris]

Thanks a lot for the insight Bobarell. Sure, send me the link. I just started the "TKD" approach (after 2 weeks of SKD) earlier this week. Before my workouts (20 min before) I threw down some sweetarts (26 grams of carbs). Unfortunately, I didn't even really notice a strength increase or "pump". AND, I checked the ole' "ketostix" (this morning) and it tested negative. Ugh, I really could use a carb-up day myself...but, I just get the feeling it's going to throw me off. I'm going to stick with the TKD for another few weeks and see how it goes. Also, what do you recommend cardio-wise (how many times a week, intensity, if any)? Also, did you use ALA...how did that work out for you if you did. Thanks again (Karma for you).

 

[plornive]

Thanks a lot for the insight Bobarell. Sure, send me the link. I just started the "TKD" approach (after 2 weeks of SKD) earlier this week. Before my workouts (20 min before) I threw down some sweetarts (26 grams of carbs). Unfortunately, I didn't even really notice a strength increase or "pump". AND, I checked the ole' "ketostix" (this morning) and it tested negative. Ugh, I really could use a carb-up day myself...but, I just get the feeling it's going to throw me off. I'm going to stick with the TKD for another few weeks and see how it goes. Also, what do you recommend cardio-wise (how many times a week, intensity, if any)? Also, did you use ALA...how did that work out for you if you did. Thanks again (Karma for you).

The thing about TKDs is that pre workout carbs will not replenish muscle glycogen or give you a pump. They will just give you some energy and prevent muscle catabolism. Try taking creatine and arginine with your pre-workout carbs.

 

[Bobarell]

http://www.voicenet.com/~petrizzi/fitness/ckdcalc.html

Here's the link. Yes I did use ALA, but not that much since I am broke right now.

I used about 500mg with each carb up meal and I did feel it. I also never left Keotsis while taking it. I did not take a lot this past weekend and I left Ketosis. I only took about 1500 total a day during the 2 carb up days. It did help me get back into keto faster though. It took me less than a day to see traces on my Ketostix.

When I get my money situation good again I am gonna start taking about 1200mg on low carb days and about 2500 on refeed days.

I will let you know how it goes.

 

[MASSIVEmorris]

ALA with pre-workout carbs...

Plornive,
You've stated before that taking ALA with pre-workout carbs (on a TKD) is a bad idea. Why is that? Wouldn't it just transport the carbs to where I want them to be (i.e. my muscles). Thus, allowing me to get a "pump" and what not.

 

[plornive]

Re: ALA with pre-workout carbs...

Plornive,
You've stated before that taking ALA with pre-workout carbs (on a TKD) is a bad idea. Why is that? Wouldn't it just transport the carbs to where I want them to be (i.e. my muscles). Thus, allowing me to get a "pump" and what not.

I don't think it's enough carbs to give you a real pump. You want to maintain your blood sugar during your workout --- this really prevents catabolism. ALA will not allow you to do this. Pre-workout carbs will not give you a pump --- they will just give you energy and prevent catabolism. Pre-workout carbs *may* increase glycogen synthesis after your workout but this is insignificant if anything.

Think about this: your liver uses gluconeogenesis to raise blood sugar during a workout. Working out releases cortisol which pulls amino acids from your muscle cells. If you keep your blood sugar up with pre-workout carbs, this process will not cannibalize as much muscle, and you will have more energy to get through your workout. Insulin is suppressed while working out, so in theory you shouldn't get sleepy from the carbs.

 

[2Titans]

If you are eating carbs, high intensity cardio will, in my opinion, burn just as much fat as low intensity. Although high intensity cardio seems to inhibit fatty-acid mobilization and metabolism during actual exercise, it seems to cause a massive post-exercise fatty-acid mobilization. Basically, you burn carbs during high intensity cardio and burn more fat later on because of it. For about an hour after some high intensity cardio, your body is metabolizing fat to replenish intra-muscular triglycerides and other recuperate.

If you are in ketosis, you are not eating very many carbs. High intensity cardio *requires* glucose/glycogen because of the muscle fiber type used. This means that you should not do high intensity cardio while in ketosis --- your body will catabolize a lot of muscle in the process of obtaining glucose from amino acids and glycerol (cortisol and glucagon). This will not happen as much with low intensity cardio in ketosis, because you will be using mostly type 1 (oxidative) muscle fibers that can more easily burn fatty acids.

Likewise, if you are in ketosis for a long time and try to lift weights with very low muscle glycogen, you will be weak and lose lots of muscle. Your muscles rely almost exclusively on glycogen while lifting, so you will be weak. Your muscles *cannot* use ketones for energy. Your type 2 fibers (ones you use most for lifting) have a very difficult time utilizing fatty-acids. Lifting will make your muscles even hungrier for glucose (thereby lowering your blood-sugar and causing cortisol and glucagon release), and gluconeogenesis (cortisol and glucagon) will eat your muscles. This is why a non-stop ketogenic diet will destroy your muscles. A cyclical ketogenic diet will allow you to train because of temporarily elevated glycogen levels.

Ketogenic Diets can be sustained for long periods and continue to enhance performance levels. High intensity anerobic activity will not have a negative impact on muscle mass or strength providing dietary fat ingestion is kept at high level. The most common mistake individuals will make while being in nutritional ketosis is not providing enough dietary fat in their diet in the form of saturated and MCT. They will have a tedency to fall back to a moderate fat intake- you must keep fat levels high. Keeping dietary fat levels high has a tremendous protein sparing effect on the body. Therefore, not only will you gain lean muscle mass while on an extended ketogenic diet (as long as fat levels remain high 70-80% of calorie consumption), you will also see an increase in power to weight ratio while bodyfat levels decrease. Weakness, loss of muscle, etc is a result of too low level of dietary fat in the diet along with carb restriction, not becuase of ketosis. I used to consume 3-4 grams of protein on a high carb low fat diet- on a ketogenic diet, because of the great protein sparing effect of increase dietary fat, I can continue to have strength increases and increase lean muscle mass with roughly 1gram of protein per Kg. Too much protein ingestion whiile on a high fat ketogenic diet will contribute to gluconeogenesis which can be counterproductive to sustaining nutritional ketosis- it's also an example of how high fat is protein sparing and you don't require as much. Sustained ketosis has numerous health benefits by keeping insulin levels low and sustained low. If you are having strength issues, loss of muscle- INCREASE YOUR FAT and you will be pleasantly suprised at the results. I start my morning off with a cup of buletproof coffee. I use organic coffee (coffee is one of the most highly sprayed crops with pesticides- make the switch to organic), 2 tablespoons of organic unsalted grass fed butter, 2 tablespoons of organic unrefined coconut oil, a small cube of dark chocolate (65% cocoa content) for flavor. Melt the butter, cocunut oil and chocolate- add coffee and mix with a hand blender. Will provide you with almost 50grams of fat and close to 500 calories.

 

[kuda']

mr x has the best research on ketogenic dieting hands down !!!! does he still post!?!